Mel Robbins Podcast: w/ Luck Researcher Dr. Tina Seelig (Transcript)

But you want us to focus on creating more luck and making things go our way, which is in our control.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Absolutely.

MEL ROBBINS: That’s a completely different version of luck than I thought.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Well, it’s really important. It’s critically important to distinguish between the things that happen to you and how you respond. I mean, there’s this fabulous, very famous quote by Viktor Frankl about the fact that the world is happening to you, and you have this time between stimulus and response, where you get to decide how to respond. And that’s where luck comes in.

It comes in by taking the time to think about how you actually engage with the world. We are in a constant dance with the world, where we are either leading or we’re following. And there are times in which the world is leading, right? The pandemic happened and our world all turned upside down. But then you get to decide what you’re going to do with it.

MEL ROBBINS: I’ve never thought about luck this way. I have always thought about luck as just something that kind of happens to you, or, you know, if you’re unlucky, that happens to you too. And so really thinking about the fact that, yes, there are lots of things that happen that are unfair, and yes, there are very real problems, and that is true and unfortunate — and we can take the science of creating your own luck, if you will, and use it to respond in a different way.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly. And I am so excited to share the things that people can do to unlock luck in their lives.

Luck Begins the Moment You Decide to Act

MEL ROBBINS: All right. I want to read to you from your bestselling book, What I Wish I Knew About Luck. This is on page 6.

“Luck requires taking a chance, a calculated risk. It begins the moment you decide to act in the face of uncertainty. Whether it’s throwing your hat into the ring for a competitive opportunity, moving to a distant city without a clear plan, or simply introducing yourself to someone new, each action is a leap of faith beyond the familiar. These moments may seem small, but they’re pivotal, creating openings to capture lucky opportunities.”

What does that mean?

DR. TINA SEELIG: Every decision you make opens the door to something brand new. We are always one decision away from a completely different life. I think about this all the time. You know, some of the closest friends I have made in my life are people who were standing next to me in line, who I started a conversation with, and we found that we had something in common. And then we started working together, and then we became best friends. If I had not started that conversation, that entire world would not have existed.

A Bourbon on the Rocks and a 30-Year Marriage

MEL ROBBINS: Okay, let’s stop right here because I love this kind of thing. Okay?

DR. TINA SEELIG: Okay.

MEL ROBBINS: So I was standing in a bar — it was in a bar. I was standing at a United Way benefit in 1994. I was a brand new legal aid attorney in New York City, and I walked up to the bar and I ordered a bourbon on the rocks to go. I wanted it in a plastic cup because I was going to bounce from the party. And behind me, I heard somebody say, “That sounds great. Make it two.” I turn around and it was Christopher Robbins, who I will be celebrating my 30th wedding anniversary with this year. Let’s unpack that moment in the framework of luck versus fortune.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Do you see what I mean? Okay, exactly. Well, I think it’s a great example. Because he saw you, he was intrigued. He said, “I’ll take the same,” and you started a conversation. It could have been the end. Think of the number of conversations that went nowhere. “Thank you very much. I’ll see you later.”

MEL ROBBINS: “I’m going home.” Think about the moments where you see somebody who’s interesting, but you don’t walk across the room.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly. And I have so many examples. Let me tell you one.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

How a Conversation on a Plane Led to a Book Deal

DR. TINA SEELIG: In fact, this book is the result of a conversation I had with someone sitting on an airplane next to me.

MEL ROBBINS: Really?

DR. TINA SEELIG: I was flying across the country, early, early morning flight, could have just shut my eyes and gone to sleep. The man sitting next to me was a publisher. And I started to chat with him. We talked for a good long time. And at some point, I pulled out a book proposal. I took a little risk. And I said, “Guess what, I’ve got a book proposal right here on my computer.” And he was kind enough to look at it. And he said, “This is very nice, Tina. But not really for us.” I said, “Okay, no problem.”

But guess what? At the end of the flight, we exchanged contact information and he sent me a text as I was walking off the plane. I stayed in touch. I was teaching a class, my creativity class at Stanford, and I thought, “Gee, I’m doing a project this quarter. What should it be on? Maybe I’ll do it on the future of publishing.” So I called him up again and I said, “Hey, guess what? I’m doing a project on the future of publishing. Would you come to class?” He said, “Sure.” So he came, he met my students. We had a great, great opportunity for everyone.

I followed up again with some videos of some projects my students had worked on — some were part of a global innovation tournament. They were pretty cool. He said, “Wow, there is a book in here for the students.” And he wanted to meet the students who had worked on this project. I said, “Okay, that sounds pretty cool.” And I set up a lunch.

At the end of the lunch — which he had brought one of his editors to — his editor turned to me and said, “Hey, would you ever consider writing a book?” And I gave him the exact same proposal I had given his boss. I don’t know, it was either 1 or 2 years earlier. But I kept that relationship going. That was the point. There were all these little choices I made that ended up leading to the publication of What I Wish I Knew When I Was 20, starting with the conversation with the man sitting next to me on the plane.

Luck Is Something You Create

MEL ROBBINS: So do you want us to think about luck really more as something you create through the actions you take?

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly.

MEL ROBBINS: Versus something that just happens to some people versus others.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly. But here’s the important thing now.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Luck is ubiquitous.

MEL ROBBINS: What does that mean?

DR. TINA SEELIG: Opportunities are ubiquitous. Opportunities are like the wind, but you need a sail to catch it. And what I am passionate about is teaching people how to catch the winds of luck.

When Opportunities Don’t Feel Equal

MEL ROBBINS: So I would love to have you, Dr. Seelig, just speak to the reality for some people that opportunities don’t feel ubiquitous, and they historically haven’t been ubiquitous. If, let’s say, you’re being discriminated against, or you are in a situation where something through no fault of your own — you’re being sexually harassed at work, or there are very serious problems that people are facing, right?

And so they might hear this research, which I think could be very helpful in how you respond to things that are very real. How do you want somebody to think about the opportunities that are out there, even if you’ve had a lifetime of feeling like the door is always closed in your face because of the color of your skin, or because you’re a woman and you haven’t been paid what you — you know what I mean? Like, I —

The Winds of Luck: Building Your Sailboat

DR. TINA SEELIG: Of course, of course. And honestly, life is not fair. People are born into very terrible circumstances. There are people who have medical problems. There are people who have dysfunctional families. But we have choices we make.

I’ve been doing work for the last, I don’t know, 10 years, working with a group at San Quentin State Prison called The Last Mile. It’s an amazing program where they teach innovation and entrepreneurship and coding to men and women who are incarcerated. Now, these are folks who have had many, very, very difficult lives, often starting with very unfortunate circumstances. And the people who were in this program are given a chance to learn these skills and to develop the mindset needed to be successful when they are released from prison.

And it’s remarkable to see how people can change. People can change their attitude and their actions to unlock possibilities that they didn’t see before.

MEL ROBBINS: I think that’s so important to understand. And I can tell based on the passion and the just intensity of what you’re like, no, this is real. And it doesn’t mean that there won’t be challenges that you face in life. Those are very real, but you have a choice in whether you just throw in the towel and say, this is just how things are. Or you lean in and say, okay, how I respond to this and how I think about creating my own luck. And as you said, there are opportunities everywhere, but you’ve got to open the sail to catch them. Can you unpack that analogy of catching the winds of luck?

DR. TINA SEELIG: Great. Can I show you a graphic?

MEL ROBBINS: Please.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Okay.

MEL ROBBINS: So I want to describe this for the person who is listening so you don’t miss a thing. Dr. Seelig is holding up a painting and there’s a hot air balloon. There is a sailboat, there is a windmill, and there is a church sitting on the shore. And the sailboat’s sailing on the ocean, and the hot air balloon’s over the ocean, but on the shore is the windmill and the church.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Yeah. To me, it actually looks like a house with a— It’s a house with a wind vane on the top.

MEL ROBBINS: Oh, is that what that is?

DR. TINA SEELIG: That is a wind vane on the top of the house. Yeah, yeah. But it could look like that at a distance. The idea is that the winds of luck are ubiquitous. They are always blowing. And there are different ways in which we can engage with them.

Some people stay inside the house and they shut the shutters and they don’t even pay attention. They don’t even see them. They might open the shutters and see them, but they might not even do anything. Okay, I’m just going to turn the other way. Now, there are some people who are like a wind vane. They’re at the top of the house, they’re noticing the opportunities, they’re swiveling on their axis, but they’re not doing anything with it.

MEL ROBBINS: They’re just looking.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Oh, there’s an opportunity there and there and there. They’re not doing anything.

MEL ROBBINS: Oh my gosh, this is— if you’re the kind of person that has been thinking forever about applying for that job or using social media to market yourself, or you’re the kind of person that has been thinking about going back to school or thinking about getting an online dating profile, you are the weather vane spinning around in the wind doing nothing.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly.

MEL ROBBINS: Going nowhere.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly. Or you could be a hot air balloon. Now, a hot air balloon, the winds of luck are taking you where they may. You don’t really have much control. But you know what, there are times in our life when it’s reasonable to be a hot air balloon, to be a leaf in the wind and say, I’m just going to see where my interests take me.

MEL ROBBINS: Yep.

DR. TINA SEELIG: So that’s a reasonable thing to do. But then once you start seeing an opportunity where you go, wow, there’s something here, you can become a windmill. And a windmill is where you are really capturing the winds of luck in that local area and you are harnessing all—

MEL ROBBINS: So give me an example of that.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Okay, you get a job. Somewhere.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes.

DR. TINA SEELIG: And you go, okay, I am going to be the best I can in this job.

MEL ROBBINS: Got it.

DR. TINA SEELIG: I am going to see what I can make of this. And in fact, one of the things I tell my students is you don’t get a job, you get the keys to the building. You go, okay, I’m going to see where this takes me.

MEL ROBBINS: Oh, I love that. Hold on a second. I want to make sure that you really got what Dr. Seelig just told you, because this is something that I am sending this to all three of our adult children right now. You do not get a job, you get the keys to the building.

DR. TINA SEELIG: You bet.

MEL ROBBINS: And you create your own luck in that job, even if you hate the job, by showing up to that job every day and doing the things you’re about to tell us to do and bringing a certain type of energy and a certain level of excellence and a certain attitude in order to capture the opportunity that is swirling around that office that you’re dragging yourself into.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly.

MEL ROBBINS: So you can choose the bad attitude. Or you can choose to have a different attitude. But what you’re here to say is, trust my research. There is opportunity everywhere for the taking if you wake up and recognize it.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Right. And you can take it further, though.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

DR. TINA SEELIG: You can become a sailboat.

MEL ROBBINS: And how do I do that?

DR. TINA SEELIG: The sailboat is looking for the luck. It’s out there searching for the winds of luck. You can be capturing the luck like a windmill where they are locally, or you can be a sailboat where you’re out there with a goal, a specific goal in mind, and you’re saying, how do I get to those winds to get me to that destination?

MEL ROBBINS: Got it.

DR. TINA SEELIG: So let me put this down. Kind of big. And I want to talk to you about how to become a sailboat.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

The Three Steps to Becoming a Sailboat

DR. TINA SEELIG: I want to talk to you about that. Because if you want to be a sailboat to capture the winds of luck, there are 3 things you need to do. First, you need to build that sailboat. The next is you need to recruit your crew. And third, you need to hoist the sail.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

DR. TINA SEELIG: And this is very important to separate these three things.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

DR. TINA SEELIG: You build your sailboat. That’s all the internal work. It’s funny, whenever I tell people I’m writing a book about luck or I’m doing work on luck, they go, “Oh yes, yes, fortune favors the prepared mind.” Well, I love that quote. Louis Pasteur, great quote about fortune favoring the prepared mind. But what is the prepared mind?

MEL ROBBINS: I don’t know.

DR. TINA SEELIG: That sailboat is your prepared mind.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

DR. TINA SEELIG: That is all the internal work that you need to do to be ready to ultimately catch the winds of luck.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay, so let’s stop right with building the sailboat. Because I know as you’re listening and watching right now, you’re like, all right, I’m with you, Dr. Seelig, but how do I build a sailboat? What does that actually mean? How am I doing the internal work to turn this brain of mine that’s told me my entire life, “Oh, things like that don’t happen to a person like me. I’ll never get out of this debt. I’m not going to be this way. I’m not smart. I’m not good.” Because I can tell you right now, that doesn’t sound like you’re building a sailboat. So what are the specific things that we need to do or know or change in order to take advantage of step 1, which is you got to build that sailboat in yourself?

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly. And it’s very, very important.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

Step 1: Know Your Core Values

DR. TINA SEELIG: One is you need to know what your core values are.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

DR. TINA SEELIG: If you do not have those core values, which are like the keel under your boat that keeps you steady, you’re going to be manipulated by people who ask you to do things that are not ethical. They’re not legal. This is how people get caught when they don’t have their core values.

And in fact, I can tell you a story about what happened to me when I was young. I had taken my first job right out of graduate school. It was a medtech company. And I was so eager, I just wanted to do everything right. And the president of the company asked me to go to a conference. It was a conference actually being hosted by a competing company. And he asked me to go not as a member of the team of this company, but as Dr. Seelig from Stanford. And he was my boss. Why should I question him? I had never thought about whether this would be ethical or not. So I said, sure, of course I’ll go.

So I got on a plane, I went to Chicago, I registered as Dr. Seelig from Stanford. Went to the conference, and as the conference started, it was a relatively small conference. At the end of every session, I raised my hand and asked all sorts of probing questions because I knew a lot about this technology because I was working at a competing company.

MEL ROBBINS: Yeah.

DR. TINA SEELIG: And they started getting suspicious. And they called up my company and they said, “Is Tina Seelig there?” And of course, the receptionist said, “Yes. No, no, no, she’s not here. She’s at a conference in Chicago.” And so, I was getting into the elevator to go up to my room, and two people followed me in. The door shut, and one of them turned and hit the stop button.

MEL ROBBINS: Are you— What did you think was happening?

DR. TINA SEELIG: I had no idea. I turned around, and they looked at me, they backed me in the corner, and they said, “Are you a spy?” I mean, I burst into tears, honestly. I was like, “Oh my gosh!” But they said, “We called your company.” They were very funny. They said, “We understand. Jan, you’re the VP of Marketing at the company,” which was sort of a joke since I was like an intern. But they escorted me out very quickly. And I sat on the sidewalk thinking, “What happened?”

And I realized it was because I hadn’t even taken a minute to think about my values. And I was very unlucky, wasn’t I? Because I should have said to my boss, “Of course I can’t do that. I can’t misrepresent myself.” And so one of the first things you need to do is really think about what your core values—

MEL ROBBINS: How do you figure that out? Is there a simple way to really think about what your core values are? Because I can think about moments in my life, for example, a period of my life where when we were struggling financially as a young married couple with kids, my core value was safety and security. And so I said yes to lots of stuff I wouldn’t do right now because I wanted to pay the bills and it was aligned with my values then. My values now have shifted because I still value security and safety, but it’s not on fire right now. And so I have different values.

But I think it’s one of those things where it’s not something that people stop and think about. So how would you recommend— because I think we all want to be luckier and we certainly want to open up the winds and capture as much opportunity as we can. But how do you figure out what you actually value?

DR. TINA SEELIG: So there are a lot of ways to do it.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

DR. TINA SEELIG: And a lot has to do with taking the time to actually think about it in advance.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

The Ethics of Walking Away and Knowing Your Values

DR. TINA SEELIG: Think about what your values are. Are you going to misrepresent yourself? There’s a slippery slope. Once you make one decision to do something that’s not ethical, it’s much easier to make the second decision, right? Once you’ve done the first one, that door is open. And you have to think about who you want to be in the world.

You also can put together a personal board of advisors. This is a really helpful tool. Who are you going to go to when you’re asked to do something where you have a kind of a spider sense, where you go, “You know what? This doesn’t smell right. Who do I go to to get some feedback?” And it’s also really helpful to have the ability to walk away.

MEL ROBBINS: To have—

DR. TINA SEELIG: Now, it’s really difficult when you’re in a situation where you’re feeling financially vulnerable, and you go like, I don’t know what to do. But oftentimes, there’s a case we used to use with our students many years ago, about somebody who had taken on a lot of financial debt, bought an expensive house, moved to a new city, did all sorts of things that were expensive. And then when the company he was working for started doing things that were illegal, he couldn’t leave because he couldn’t afford to give up the job.

So think about not putting yourself in a position where you’re so tied to an organization or to some situation where you can’t walk away if you’re asked to do something that you find is unethical.

Core Values and the Stories We Tell Ourselves

MEL ROBBINS: Well, I can give another example, and let’s see if this one checks out, Dr. Seelig, with the research you’ve done. I was talking to a friend over the weekend who’s in a relationship, and this person knows that they don’t want to be engaged to the person that asked them to be married. And she was going on and on and on about it because it’s a very difficult decision. And she said, “Well, the problem is, I just really am a peacekeeper.”

And I said, “Hold on a second. That’s what you were in your first marriage, which is why you were miserable. You kept the peace and you never told the truth. You, in this chapter, have made it very clear that what you value more than anything is being a truth teller.”

And I would imagine that if you don’t understand what your core value is in terms of why you want to be even in a romantic relationship— I want to be with somebody where I can be fully myself versus constantly suppressing what I feel and what I need in order to make somebody else happy— you will never, ever, ever build this internal sailboat, and the winds of chance are going to steer you to all kinds of relationships because you don’t realize you actually value that rather than just companionship. Does that make sense?

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly. Exactly. And that’s just one piece of the puzzle, is your core values. You need to know, which is sort of tied into what you just said, the story you tell about who you are in the world, right? We each have a story of who we are, and that story is always shifting depending upon who we’re with and how we feel about ourselves and the ability to own that story.

MEL ROBBINS: If your story is really awful— “I’m not smart, I’m not good enough, nothing ever works out for me”— how do you start building this sailboat?

DR. TINA SEELIG: Great. So you need to understand that you can do little experiments every day.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

DR. TINA SEELIG: You need to be willing to take some risks. To get out of your comfort zone and to try something different.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Now, let me ask you now.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes.

DR. TINA SEELIG: And please call me Tina.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay. Sorry, I keep calling you Dr. Seelig.

DR. TINA SEELIG: It’s okay. Are you a risk-taker?

MEL ROBBINS: Absolutely.

The Riskometer: Mapping Your Risk Profile

DR. TINA SEELIG: Okay. Most people answer yes or no, but risk is much more nuanced. There are all different types of risk.

MEL ROBBINS: I should have said, “Depends.” See, you’re so smart.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Okay, it depends.

MEL ROBBINS: I’m like, yes, I take a risk, but no, I always take a calculated risk.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly. But think about the different types of risk.

MEL ROBBINS: Because I’m not an air balloon just going, throwing caution to the wind.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly. But think about the different types of risk. Let me show you something. Okay. This is the riskometer that we use in our classes where students map their risk profile.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay. Now I want to just explain for the person who’s listening right now, because we’re going to walk you through this. And as Tina walks us through each of the 6 different types of risk that you’re going to be faced with in life, I want you to think whether you have a high or low tolerance, because you’re ranking it 0 to 10. And all she has is a circle, and there are 6 different points on it, and she’s going to walk us through it right now. And as Tina walks through each of the 6 types of risks, I want you to be answering this for yourself, because I think this is a really interesting way to get into values.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly, exactly. And to figure out what the type of risks you’re comfortable taking and where you want to stretch.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay, great. So let’s go through each one.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Right. So this is called a spider chart. It looks like a spider web.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes, it does.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Where the center is 0 and the outside is 10.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

DR. TINA SEELIG: So you map yourself on it.

MEL ROBBINS: So let’s try to do this together.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Okay. So I think you and I are actually pretty similar.

MEL ROBBINS: Are we? Okay.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Yes. So physical risk— where would you be on a scale of 1 to 10?

MEL ROBBINS: I’m probably like a 6.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Oh, really? Okay, great.

MEL ROBBINS: And I want you to be thinking as you’re listening or watching, okay, where am I? 0 to 10 on physical. Are you a big risk taker like my husband and my son? I’m just like, can we please bring it down from like a 9 to a 5?

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly. Exactly. My son was a very competitive cyclist, and every time he would go out on his bike, I would just hold my breath.

MEL ROBBINS: My husband’s a cyclist too. I’m like, can you not listen to music as you’re cycling down the road at 40 miles an hour? At least wear a helmet.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Okay, so let’s talk about emotional risk. Okay, telling someone how you feel.

MEL ROBBINS: Oh, I’m a 10. It doesn’t feel risky to me to share how I’m feeling.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Great.

MEL ROBBINS: How about you?

DR. TINA SEELIG: I’m very high. I mean, I’m happy to tell you that I love you.

MEL ROBBINS: Oh, I love you too, and I love you as you’re listening and watching. For somebody though that is lower on the emotional risk, what might that feel like in your life that you would be scared of?

DR. TINA SEELIG: It feels vulnerable to tell someone how you feel— maybe you feel anxious or maybe you feel scared, or maybe you really like someone and you’re afraid to tell them.

MEL ROBBINS: Got it.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Right? Okay. And so someone who has a high risk profile there is like, “I’m going to tell you.” I always feel that you tell people things and you get data, right?

MEL ROBBINS: Yes.

DR. TINA SEELIG: You get some data back. Social risk.

MEL ROBBINS: Now talk to me about social risk. What falls in the category of social risk?

DR. TINA SEELIG: Being willing to get up and give a toast at a wedding, giving a talk.

MEL ROBBINS: Talking in a meeting at work.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly. Being out in front of the world, being out there. And it’s not emotional, but you’re—

MEL ROBBINS: Yes.

DR. TINA SEELIG: You’re going to get out there and do something very public.

MEL ROBBINS: I’ll tell you. So the sort of things where I am giving a toast or I’m talking in a meeting, or certainly because I’ve developed the skill of giving speeches in arenas, I have zero fear about it, so I would put myself at a 10. However, when this show was nominated for a Golden Globe, I had never walked a red carpet. I am not at all comfortable putting myself out there in terms of a beautiful dress and “look at me.” And I would say I was about a 2.

DR. TINA SEELIG: So, isn’t that interesting? I think this is fascinating, Mel.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Because you had never done it before. But if you had done it 2, 3, 4 times, it would have been natural.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes.

DR. TINA SEELIG: It would have been easy. You’re happy to make social risks because you’ve been doing it so much. And this is super important, right? If you start out saying, “Oh my gosh, this is uncomfortable for me,” you can stretch. You started as a 2, but the next time you do it, you’ll be a 4, and then you’ll be a 6.

MEL ROBBINS: And I’ll tell you what, I’m not buying the dress. I’m going to borrow it next time. It turns out a lot of people borrow from designers, but I was the idiot who bought it.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Yes.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay. For the next time, you’ll be ready.

DR. TINA SEELIG: If there is a next time. So, okay, let’s talk about financial risk.

Financial Risk and the Lessons of Past Mistakes

MEL ROBBINS: Okay. So this is one where I would be a zero. I don’t want to take any risk financially because earlier in my life, the first 40 years, I took all kinds of risks. I was stupid with my money, racking up the credit cards, maxing out the home equity line, living in some sort of fantasy, like somehow I’m just going to get lucky. And even though I’m making all these dumbass decisions, this is going to somehow— so now, now that I’ve experienced the pain of driving myself— you know what’s interesting about this too? I can look backwards and see how my decisions created a situation where I was very unlucky.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Yes, but it was your behavior, it was your choices you made.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes, there were— not everything. There are some things that swing that are unfortunate. But my decisions certainly put me within striking distance of having a major catastrophe, and that’s what happened.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly. So I have to say, I have to assume you take some financial risk because your business— you have to be—

MEL ROBBINS: We are— I don’t ever want to be in a situation where I have scaled a business too quickly that I then have to lay people off. There are 50 people and their families that depend on the decisions that my business partner and I make. And so I think we’re both very, very risk-averse when we think about the implications of what we say yes and no to.

The $5 Experiment: Intellectual Risk and Creating Opportunities

DR. TINA SEELIG: Great. Okay, fabulous. Well, this is— now, it’s interesting because you might think that some people, like venture capitalists, have a really high financial risk profile, but they’re always trying to squeeze all the risk out, right? Just like the person who’s jumping out of the airplane, they’re going to make sure the parachute is packed properly. So, it’s very interesting that the more prepared you are, it doesn’t feel like a big risk, right? You have this company with 50 people who depend on you. You feel like it’s a low financial risk. Someone on the outside will go, “Wow, that’s risky.” But you’ve squeezed all the risk out by testing and doing lots and lots of experiments and scaling really slowly. So that it doesn’t feel like it’s a financial risk.

MEL ROBBINS: Great. And the next one is intellectual.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Intellectual, like, oh yeah, you’re going to go try something new, stretch, think about things you haven’t thought about before, solve a problem that’s intractable.

MEL ROBBINS: I’m so intellectually curious. It’s a 10. Let me ask you about intellectual risk. What are some everyday examples of what intellectual risk looks like in your life?

DR. TINA SEELIG: It’s usually problem solving, right? You’ve got a problem that is in front of you and you’re willing to tackle it. It’s like, okay, I can figure this out. I’m a huge believer that every problem is an opportunity. The bigger the problem, the bigger the opportunity. And that’s a real entrepreneurial mindset.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes.

DR. TINA SEELIG: And you can foster that. You can really develop the ability to take on more intellectual risk.

MEL ROBBINS: So taking a risk means instead of feeling like life is running you over or there are no opportunities or nothing’s going to ever work out, it would be an intellectual risk to say, “Well, maybe there’s something I can do here.” Well, let me give you a story.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Please.

The $5 Challenge: Seeing Opportunity Where Others See Nothing

MEL ROBBINS: I was asked to teach one week about entrepreneurship in the new design school at Stanford. And I was like, “What can I do in one week?” So I had 14 teams and I gave them each an envelope with $5 in it. And I said, you can brainstorm as long as you want, but as soon as you open this envelope, you have 2 hours to make as much money as possible. What are you going to do? And I basically gave them essentially nothing, right? A few dollars. And they needed to figure out what value they could create.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Now there were the people who knew you could do something. I could have a lemonade stand or a car wash or do something small. And there were the groups that did that. Then there were the groups who said, “Hey, you know what? That $5 is a red herring. I don’t need the $5. I’ve got all sorts of skills.” And they set up a stand to pump bike tires in the middle of campus, and they made $200, because— and halfway through, they said, “Hey, let’s not charge people. Let’s just ask for donations.” And people paid them more. Or they made reservations at restaurants in Palo Alto, with long lines, and as the reservation came up, they sold the reservations.

MEL ROBBINS: Oh, to people waiting in line.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Waiting in line. Yeah. But then there were the people who said, “You know what, the $5 was a red herring. The 2 hours was a red herring. Maybe my 3-minute presentation class is where the value is.” And they sold it for $650.

MEL ROBBINS: What do you mean?

DR. TINA SEELIG: To a company who wanted to recruit the students in the class.

MEL ROBBINS: Oh my gosh. So they took their slot where they were going to present their findings. And they called a company and said, “Do you want to come and pitch a Stanford design class?”

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly. And the reason I call this an intellectual risk is they had to be creative, right? They had to come up with creative solutions. What do I do when I have nothing? And this is also tied to luck because guess what? Opportunities are everywhere. Most people think, “Oh, I don’t have any money.” But these students created all this value with nothing, looking around and seeing the problems that were around them and figuring out how they could come up with solutions.

Why Taking Risks Creates Luck

MEL ROBBINS: Why does taking risks, whether it’s a small financial risk or it’s a small social risk or it’s a small physical risk, small intellectual risk to put yourself out there, why does that create luck?

DR. TINA SEELIG: Oftentimes, it’s because you get yourself out of your comfort zone. Let me tell you a story that sort of encapsulates a number of these principles. There was a young man who reached out to me a few months ago, maybe actually about a year ago. His name is Oliver, and he reached out to me after he watched my TED Talk on luck. And he said, “You know what? I really resonate with all of this and I want to become a luck coach.” I said, “A luck coach? That sounds like a great idea.” And he said, “Could I just have 5 minutes of your time? I just want to talk to you.” And I said, “I would be delighted.” So I set up a time to talk to him, and we had a really nice chat.

MEL ROBBINS: By the way, you could either look at that one moment and say, “Well, he was really lucky that you said yes. He was really lucky that it was you and not some curmudgeon professor.” But I think your point is, if he hadn’t taken the risk to ask for the meeting, it never would have happened. And so he’s creating the luck. Just to kind of get you to understand, because most people think, “Oh, I should reach out to Tina.” And then you go, “But she’s so busy and she’s not going to have time and I don’t want to be a burden. And what do I actually say in the email?” And da da da da da da da. So you talk yourself out of doing the thing that could actually create the luck that you want.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly. And it could have been that I didn’t respond. Right. Because there are so many examples where you have to send a letter to 500 people before you end up getting a couple of people who respond to you.

MEL ROBBINS: Of course.

The Power of the Thank You Note: Oliver’s Story

DR. TINA SEELIG: But here’s the thing. I did respond. I was intrigued. I had just started working on this book and I said, “Oh, that’s interesting. A luck coach. Let me find out what he’s doing.” And he told me, and I spent literally 5, 10 minutes on the phone with him. And this is important. He asked for a 5-minute favor. A very small thing that was going to be an easy thing. He made himself easy to help. Just 5 minutes of your time.

So afterwards, what did he do? He sent me a thank you note. Now, do you know how many people do not send thank you notes? It is the most amazing thing when someone does something for you. It is a huge missed opportunity if you do not send a thank you note.

So he did the right thing. He said, “Thank you.” But he didn’t stop there. He sent me a long list. He sent me a document with all these ways he could help me. He said, “I understand you’re writing a book on luck. Here are different ways I can help you.” I was so intrigued. Now, nothing that he listed was exactly what I wanted, but I thought, “Oh, this guy, he really took the initiative here.” And I hired him as a research assistant for the book.

Now, I had never ever used a research assistant for any of my books, ever. But I thought, you know, I think he might be able to help me. So I hired him as a research assistant. Over the next months, I got to know him in our calls. There’s a whole chapter in the book about him. Now, this all started with him asking for a 5-minute favor.

MEL ROBBINS: I love the thank you note example. Do you know what I love about the way you’re teaching us this? The risk assessment that you do on yourself reveals the things that you value and how your actions are probably holding you back. And that’s a core part of really building the sailboat of who you are. And the second part was the crew. So how do you build the crew?

Building Your Crew: The Power of Generosity

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly. So asking for what you want, but also helping other people. The more you help other people, it comes back in wave upon wave upon wave. It’s really important to understand that the more you give to other people, the more comes back to you.

And I can tell you so many examples because when I talk to people about what makes them lucky, you start realizing that one of their key characteristics is their generosity. Their generosity to others, like, “How can I help you? How can I help you?” Seeing someone as a problem and helping them. It comes back. Oftentimes, when you help somebody in a little way, it was so meaningful, you might even have forgotten you did it. The resulting feedback you get, the resulting impact is so much more.

MEL ROBBINS: Why does helping other people make you luckier?

DR. TINA SEELIG: Because so few people do it. So many people are just thinking about themselves. I have a great example of a fellow named Nir Eyal, who when he was younger, he was selling solar panels and he was going door to door to door, selling solar panels. And there were so many people who didn’t really want solar panels and they’d go, “But I do want to save energy. I’d really, I’m looking for a heat pump.”

Well, he noticed that someone else in the neighborhood was putting in the heat pumps. He didn’t know this guy at all. But he said, “You know, I saw this other guy is putting in heat pumps, doing a really good job,” and started recommending him. Well, this guy found out and said, “Wow, you’re recommending me? I don’t even know who you are.” He said, “Well, I saw you were doing a good job on heat pumps.” And guess what? This guy started recommending him for solar panels, and his business boomed. And it came from just being generous in recommending someone else.

MEL ROBBINS: Do you have another example, Tina, of something that I can do today that would also help me experience this?

Small Acts of Generosity That Change Everything

DR. TINA SEELIG: There are so many things you can do to show appreciation to others. One of the biggest gifts you can give someone is to introduce them to someone else. And the warmer and more positive the introduction, the more powerful it is as a gift. It’s one of the things that we so often miss that opportunity. But when you introduce someone to someone else in a really warm and wonderful way, you’ve not only created a great opportunity for them, but I can promise you it comes back to you in many ways because people are so incredibly grateful to have had that generous introduction.

MEL ROBBINS: You know, another thing that I just thought of, and you’ll have to tell me if this is an example, is if I’m standing in a line or if I’m ordering coffee at a coffee shop, I always compliment something that the person’s wearing, or their nails, or their haircut, or their smile. And it always opens up both this, like, positive energy exchange.

DR. TINA SEELIG: I agree with you totally. In fact, I think it’s one of the best things you can do is say, “I love that color on you.” Or, “Wow, your haircut. Did you get a cut?” And honestly, listen—

MEL ROBBINS: Well, I mean, I do it with strangers. I’m like, “I love your nails.” Or, “You have the best smile.” And people just light up.

DR. TINA SEELIG: I agree with you, but it should be authentic. It’s not that you’re doing it to be manipulative.

MEL ROBBINS: No.

DR. TINA SEELIG: It’s like, really, you do love their nails.

MEL ROBBINS: Of course.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Or their haircut.

MEL ROBBINS: Of course.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Or the purple sweater.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Yes, exactly.

The Third Key to Luck: Hard Work With Purpose

MEL ROBBINS: But I also have— I experience something coming alive and the energy shifting with a stranger while I’m standing in line, and I feel that just that simple thing— try it today. If you’re standing in a line, see something authentically about the person in front of you or behind you and give them a compliment. And I— if you make this a habit, you’ll start to have the doors of luck open up for you.

Before I had a podcast and I was depressed in a new town and I had no friends, I forced myself to stir the pot because I realized after 6 months of sitting alone as a 53-year-old woman with no friends in the middle of nowhere because we had just moved, after living somewhere for 26 years, feeling sorry for myself. Funny, that didn’t make friends fall out of the sky, but I still licked my wounds and felt sorry for myself. And I’m so unlucky because now I’ve moved and I don’t have friends.

I started changing my luck by forcing myself to get out of the house and going to a coffee shop, complimenting the person making the coffee, making myself remember their name, going back the next day, saying their name, complimenting something else, making small talk, one move day after day after day. And slowly I made my own luck. I met friends. I built a community. I now walk into that coffee shop. I probably get more free croissants than anybody else because, not that I’m lucky, I created the opportunity for what I actually wanted, which was community and friendship.

What is the third thing that we need to do to catch the winds of luck?

DR. TINA SEELIG: Great. So, the first was building your ship, right? This is all the internal stuff. And the internal things like your values, the story you tell about yourself, your risk profile, your goals. Then the second part is recruiting your crew. I like to say luck seldom sails solo, right? Luck usually comes as a result of your engagement with other people. And so this is asking for what you want, helping others, showing appreciation, all sorts of things that allow you to build your team.

The third is based on the quote that we hear all the time, “The harder I work, the luckier I get.” Have you ever heard that?

MEL ROBBINS: Of course, of course, it’s true.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Okay, but there’s a missing part there. Just as fortune favors a prepared mind, you need to know what a prepared mind is. “The harder I work, the luckier I get.” You need to know what that hard work is.

MEL ROBBINS: That’s true.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Okay, you need to know what it is. It’s easy to say that. I’ve had a debate for decades with my father about this.

MEL ROBBINS: Actually, I agree. Because I’ve worked very hard spinning in place. So I’m excited for you to unpack that there’s a certain type of hard work.

DR. TINA SEELIG: There’s so much you can do. And so much has to do with taking some risks, stirring the pot, introducing yourself to the person standing next to you in line for coffee, stretching beyond your comfort zone.

Capturing Luck: The Power of Curiosity and Questions

MEL ROBBINS: One of the other ones that I loved is that you need to “capture luck,” that luck favors those who ask questions. Why does asking questions increase your chance for luck? It’s chapter 14 of your book.

DR. TINA SEELIG: One of the biggest tools we have for capturing luck is being curious. And boy, you are so curious, right?

MEL ROBBINS: I really am.

DR. TINA SEELIG: And it really leads to a lot of luck because you ask lots of questions. And the more questions you ask, the more curious you are, the more you learn. I always like to tell my students that before something’s your passion, it’s something you know nothing about. And this is really important. People want to sit around and say, “Oh, I need to find my passions.” Well, what a crazy thing. Go out and do things. Be curious. Try lots of things. Keep what works. The more curious you can be, the more questions you can ask, and the better listener you are. The better you listen, the more you meet people and listen and learn from them, you are going to walk away with things that you never knew before and opportunities that will present themselves that you never even imagined.

Luck Is a Long Game: Building Momentum Over Time

MEL ROBBINS: I love that we keep coming back to this framework that’s reminding me, and I’m sure it’s reminding you as you’re listening or watching, that this research and this framework that you’re teaching us about luck and becoming a luckier person is really about intentionally making decisions to put yourself in a position to have the things that you want. Because I think common sense tells you if you want to meet the love of your life, you’re probably not going to do it sitting alone on your couch binge-watching television.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly.

MEL ROBBINS: And yet, you can sit there and just say, “Well, I’m just really unlucky in love, and I’ve just met the wrong people,” and na-na-na-na-na-na. That may be true about your past, but that doesn’t have to be true about your future. And there are specific things that you’re teaching us to do that can make you one of the lucky ones to meet that person at the bar in your pajamas, but it’s going to require something of you.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Exactly. We each have more agency than we may think. And there are so many levers at our disposal. There are like 20 different things you can do every single day, whether it’s asking for what you want, helping others, showing appreciation, taking some risks, learning to be more resilient, on and on and on, resolving conflicts.

But there’s something very, very important to keep in mind. Luck is a long game. Luck is like investing money. You start out putting little deposits, and it compounds over time. You need to trust the process that the more deposits you make by doing these things that increase the possibility of good things happening, that they do.

But I see people all the time walk right by opportunities. This is why I wrote this book, is because I see so many people— it’s like there are gold coins sitting there and I see them walk by it. You have to have a mindset that there’s a prize in every room. It’s up to you to find it.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes.

DR. TINA SEELIG: And with that mindset, you find it. It’s like the $5 project, right? Not everybody is sitting there saying, “I should set up a bike tire pressure monitor in the middle of campus.” But once you were given the challenge to create some value, people did.

Advice for Anyone Who Feels Unlucky Right Now

MEL ROBBINS: Of all the tools that you’re sharing— and as you’re listening, you’re probably just like me, thinking, okay, I could take a risk. I get it. I see how sitting back, staying silent, hoping somebody finds me, not asking for what I want, not stirring the pot, not getting out of my house— I can see how I need to shift things. But if you’re listening and you’re feeling skeptical, maybe you’re feeling a little beaten up by life, what do you want that person to know about how this truly makes a difference over time?

DR. TINA SEELIG: Yes, it is critically important to realize that the choices you make today determine the choices you are going to have in the future.

MEL ROBBINS: If somebody feels really unlucky right now, what’s the first thing they should do this week?

DR. TINA SEELIG: I would say if you were going to pick one thing, do something to stir the soup. Do something to add something new to your life. Remember, we are all one decision away from a completely different life. Apply for the job, introduce yourself to the person in line, do something to stir the soup. To open the door to something new.

Parting Words

MEL ROBBINS: Dr. Tina Seelig, what are your parting words?

DR. TINA SEELIG: I wish everyone the very, very best of luck. And I know that the choices you make today are going to be reflected over and over again in waves and waves of good luck into the future.

MEL ROBBINS: Thank you so much for being here. I love you. I appreciate you. I’m so grateful you’re doing all this research for all of us. And there’s no doubt in my mind that if you apply this, you will be luckier.

DR. TINA SEELIG: Thank you so much.

MEL ROBBINS: Well, thank you. And I also want to thank you, and I want to point something out, and I bet that Tina is going to say, “Mel, that’s right.” The fact that you hit play on this episode, especially if somebody shared this episode with you, the fact that you stirred the pot in your own life, you took a risk and hit play, and you spent time watching or listening all the way to the end is an example of what you are talking about, Tina, that you took an action aligned with something that you want, which is you do want to be luckier in life. You do want life to break in your direction. You do want to open up the sail and capture the winds of opportunity. And I’m grateful that you spent the time listening and watching something that is really going to help you do that.

And in case no one else tells you today, I wanted to be sure to tell you as your friend that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And if you follow the formula that Dr. Seelig shared with us today, there’s no doubt in my mind that you will create a better life because you’re going to be a lot luckier because you will have created it.

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