Taylor Momsen: The Grinch, Gossip Girl, & Grief – Call Her Daddy Podcast (Transcript)

So you get on that schedule and then it’s just hard to switch a schedule. But I’ve always found, even when I was younger and I didn’t have that, if I try to go to bed early, I can’t. Even if I fall asleep, I’m more tired the next day than if I just stay up and then sleep less. It’s a weird thing, but I definitely find my creative brain starts to work at night.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, well, I’m happy that you’re awake and you’re here.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Yes. Fabulous. Made it.

The Christmas EP

ALEX COOPER: Okay. You are the lead singer of the Pretty Reckless band. Can we talk though about that? You have a Christmas EP that just came out and I feel like just from the vibes, I’m like, this is a departure from what your band is usually doing. Did you have to convince everyone to do this? And was it primarily your idea?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: It was my idea. Well, let me rephrase that. It was actually the fans’ idea. So this is something that, it’s Taylor Momsen’s Pretty Reckless Christmas, and I’m doing the song from the Grinch, “Where Are You, Christmas?” And that was something that when I first formed the Pretty Reckless when I was 14, every year people put the connection together that I was Cindy Lou Who in the Grinch.

And every year it got more and more exponential and more and more people put that together. And it was always kind of a funny thing that you smile at and you go, ha, that’s cute. And every year they’d go, do a rock version of “Where Are You, Christmas?” And for, I don’t know, 15 years, I went, no way. In zero worlds is this something I would ever do.

Fast forward to, it’s Covid. We’ve gone through a lot of loss. It’s a very hard time in the Pretty Reckless world and in my life. And there’s nothing to do because we’re in lockdown. And so the only thing to do is to rehearse with the band because we’re all cool to be together. And so we spent a lot of time in the rehearsal studio.

The holidays were coming up. We’re starting to see these comments again of do a rock version of “Where Are You, Christmas?” And we kind of all turned. I kind of turned to everyone and went, should we just try this? Should we just see what happens here?

And so we put together an arrangement, which was actually kind of tricky because it’s not really a full song. It’s a minute long. And so to make it a three and a half minute song, whatever, we worked that out. We go into the rehearsal space and we jam through it once. And I kid you not, Alex, by the end of the song, these four depressed, miserable people had giant grins on our faces.

And we all kind of looked at each other and went, was that just great? I think that there was something magic that just happened here. Are we doing this now? We’re doing this. So that’s where it started. And then I decided, in order to being me and being very thorough with everything, in order to have it, I needed it to have context and I needed it to equate to me now and all the things that there’s actually some substance to what I’m doing. I wrote an entire original Christmas record around it.

ALEX COOPER: Of course you did.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Of course I did.

Embracing Cindy Lou Who

ALEX COOPER: But the fact that it came also from the fans relentlessly being like, come on, bring our girl Cindy Lou Who back. Come on. And which I want to get into today because I know there’s a lot to discuss in terms of your early career. And I feel like I’ve had a lot of conversations with actresses who then go into different roles in their career. Just making a pivot as a woman is so difficult.

And so sometimes you have to abandon who you were known for and really, really almost kind of turn your back on that to be taken seriously in another department. And so the fact that you are now sitting here and even being able to smile and say, Cindy Lou Who, with a smile in an interview, I’m sure if I interviewed you maybe 10 years ago, you would be like, I don’t even want to talk about that.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Yeah, there’s definitely an element of that.

ALEX COOPER: So there’s…

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, there’s tons of growth. And I think also, I’d be remiss to not mention the loss that we went through. And it was a hard time for me. And I think coming out of that grief and getting to the other side of it, it forced me to kind of reflect on my life in a lot of ways.

And Grinch, I went back to the very beginning, and Grinch, to me, was always great. I don’t have any bad memories with Grinch. Everything about it was awesome. It was super fun. I was super young, but there were so many, it was such an incredible project to be a part of that was so upper echelon at such a young age to see actors of that caliber and Jim Carrey and Molly Shannon, et cetera, et cetera, Ron Howard.

And then it was also my first experience in a recording studio. And so when the movie came out and stuff and I was in school, you’re teased relentlessly for it. You’re Grinch girl. I’ve moved around a lot. All of that kind of stuff was hard for me as a kid. But when I got older and looking back on it, I go, no. All of those things that happen and all of those experiences of making this film was wonderful. And so why am I shunning this? I am Cindy Lou Who. I am that girl. I’m still that girl.

Childhood Bullying

ALEX COOPER: I think we’re a similar age. Are you 31?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: 32.

ALEX COOPER: Okay. I’m 31. And I want to go back to the beginning because I know you started your career so young. But even when we’re going to talk about the Grinch, I was thinking about that where I read that you had been bullied for this role. And I’m sitting there and I’m like, what? That is the most iconic, incredible, this movie has lived forever. I watch it every single year. You were adorable and perfect and all the things.

But then it’s like, oh, no. But you’re also just like a normal kid then going to school. And kids are f*ing assholes. Whether it was jealousy or they actually just thought you were a quote unquote freak, they’re like, you’re the Grinch girl. And you’re like, so at that age, it doesn’t matter that this is like this incredible movie. It matters what your peers are. And if they’re saying you’re not cool for that, then you digest that to be like, I’m not cool for this.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, yeah. And I didn’t grow up in a Hollywood household or anything. I was born in St. Louis.

Early Career Beginnings

ALEX COOPER: Okay, wait, take me back. You get into the industry, from what I understand, around like 2 years old. How do your parents even explain to you why they got you in so young?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I was just talking about this the other day and I think I need to have another conversation with my parents because I don’t even fully know the story. I know they put me into modeling. I was signed by Ford Modeling Agency when I was 2 and I was very chatty and I don’t know, buncular. And they went, my modeling agency said, does she have an acting agent? And my parents went, no. And they went, okay, well she should, so go over to this agency.

They sent me on my first audition and I booked it that day. It was for Shake and Bake and I was 3, so that was a national commercial. And so that was kind of the kicking off point where I think they went, oh, we can do something with this for real. And so that was the start of it.

ALEX COOPER: So you start as a model.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Started as a kid model.

ALEX COOPER: And do you have any core memories or no, you were just so young?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Not really. I only remember the photos because I’ve seen them.

The Grinch Audition

ALEX COOPER: Okay, so then you get the Grinch at 6.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: That’s also blurry. It’s 5, 6, somewhere in there.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, 5, 6. You star as Cindy Lou Who. Talk to me about the audition. Do you remember the audition at all?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I remember pieces of the audition because it was a really long process. That’s why the timeline’s a little blurry. So I think I started auditioning for it when I was 5, and it came out when I was 7. So I had birthdays in between there, obviously.

But the audition process was long. I remember going in lots of rounds of it, and I remember the screen testing the most because that’s where it was down to me and two other girls and we got to try on wigs, and that’s where they were starting to kind of put together what Cindy’s going to look like.

And so I went from a neon pink wig to a green wig to a yellow wig, to this kind of outfit to this kind of outfit. And that process was really, really fun for me as a kid because you get to play dress up and it’s awesome. And so it’s pieces of it. It’s hard starting so young. It’s always hard to remember what you remember and what you remember because people have told you the stories and you’ve turned them into memories. And also I can watch my entire life. So it’s how much do you remember? How much are you watching it and remembering from that?

ALEX COOPER: Yeah, because it’s similar. Very different, but similar. Just for a kid in your childhood, you get told things by your parents and then you’re like, oh, cool.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: And you see a picture and then you can kind of also fakely come up with what you think you remember from that.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Exactly.

ALEX COOPER: But we’re so f*ing young at 5 years old. Because I was thinking, you’re saying it was so fun to do these, try on these wigs, but do you remember any part of you in any capacity being intimidated by being a part of something so big or you didn’t even understand?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I didn’t understand that. And I never remember being nervous or anything like that. It was fun. That’s what I’m saying. Grinch is so positive for me. My memories of that are so awesome.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, you had to go to Who school? Sorry, just indulge me. Because we’re getting to…

TAYLOR MOMSEN: No, no, no. Talking about fun.

ALEX COOPER: Who school. What were the wildest things that you got to be a part of during that time?

The Grinch Experience

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Well, the entire who school was, I think it was like seven months long of all the people and all the acrobats training to learn to act and create this world that Ron saw in his head of this whimsical, over the top Whoville. So they had walking into that, it was a big, you know, like, what are they called? Like, hangars, the big sets on Universal lot. And it was just empty.

But they had giant, you know, life size balls that acrobats are walking on and people doing backflips. And so you walked into this world and you’re just going, what is this kid playground? And I did all my own stunts, so I had to learn how to. I did stunt training.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, wait, but you didn’t have to do the prosthetics, right?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I didn’t have to do the prosthetics. They, Rick Baker molded my face, and after he casted me and stuff, I think everyone just kind of collectively decided that that’s too much to put a kid through. So you have to go into prosthetics every day. So they wrote it into the script. But I haven’t, haven’t grown into my nose yet.

ALEX COOPER: No, honestly, adorable. I also was thinking about that. Because I think I saw an article somewhere where it was like, Jim Carrey would sit in like eight and a half hours of prosthetics.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Prosthetics. And it killed him. Like he, from what I remember, it was brutal, insane. I think he, feel free, Jim, feel free to tell me if I’m wrong, but if I remember correctly, I think he went through actual torture training, like with a real Navy SEAL guy, to learn how to deal with it. Because he’s so covered. I mean, the suit and the contacts.

I remember there was a time when, because we had all that fake snow coming down and snow got underneath his contact and it killed him. So painful.

ALEX COOPER: No, no, no. I genuinely can’t imagine. But then obviously he brought it to life in such a beautiful way. Do you remember just, like, what it was like having him as your co-star, because he’s obviously so f*ing talented. It’s like crazy.

Working with Jim Carrey

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Insane. To see that level of talent at such a young age, I think really had a big impact on me just to see someone who takes their craft that seriously. And I get asked a lot if he scared me, you know, because everyone, I think a lot of kids were scared of the Grinch. He’s never scary to me.

To me, he was always Jim and he was always in makeup. He was very protective of me. He was very kind, super funny, super animated. Like, absolutely awesome. But the funny thing is, I never knew what Jim Carrey looked like because I never saw him because he was there way early doing the prosthetics.

ALEX COOPER: Oh, my God. So you’re like, Jim Carrey is the Grinch.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Jim Carrey is the Grinch. So I didn’t know who Jim was until the premiere, and someone had to point him out to me and go, “that’s Jim.”

ALEX COOPER: And I went, oh, Jim, that’s such a mind f*. You’re like, wait a second. I know the voice, but you’re, oh, wow. Okay. So we’re talking about this, like, beautiful moment in your life, and then, like, you referenced earlier, then you go back to school, so you’re, like, experiencing the most incredible, like, kids would dream of this, and you’re on these sets and you’re doing all that, and then you go back to school and, are you living in St. Louis?

Back to Reality: Catholic School

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Living in St. Louis. My dad works there, and I was going to Catholic school.

ALEX COOPER: Oh.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: And, oh, yeah. That’s the whole thing.

ALEX COOPER: Oh. Oh. How’d that go?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, wonderful. Don’t you know? Weren’t the nuns awesome?

ALEX COOPER: They were so loving and understanding.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: And understanding. I loved when I got really tall and my skirt got too short and I got punished for it. That was super fun. Stop there.

ALEX COOPER: Like, literally measuring to the knee.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Did you have to do it? Did you do the kneel? Yes. Where they make you kneel and measure from your hip down.

ALEX COOPER: Taylor. I, like, black it out because I was like, no place. Please don’t make me. And I agree with you. Some girls got away if they were shorter with, like, the skirts could be a little shorter, but if you were…

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Tall, and I just outgrew it. It’s not my fault. I went through a growth spurt. But, nope, you’re in trouble.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, so you’re going through all this talk to me, though, about being a kid and, like, did you have friends? Were you able to make friends?

Finding Her Voice Through Songwriting

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I’ve always had, like, a couple close friends in every stage of my life. One or two. But making, I was, I’ve gone through so many phases of myself. Like, I think the weirdest thing that people probably don’t know about me is that I’m actually really shy, and no one guesses that.

And so I have this external version of myself that is the performer and the professional and the, all of that. But that’s where, like, songwriting became really important to me because that’s where I felt like I could be me. And I started writing when I was really little. So, like, around Grinch, like, five.

ALEX COOPER: I think that makes sense because now being more involved in the industry, like, I think a lot of actors, not everyone, like, goes through these weird moments where it’s like, I’m reading the lines that someone else wrote, I’m doing what the director is telling me to do. And so, like, there, there’s not a lot of autonomy that you’ve got going on in these situations.

So, like, to have something as an outlet that, like, you can genuinely have for yourself. I think a lot of actors try to find that for themselves, because we as consumers think that these actors are like, they somehow maybe wrote the lines or they did these things. And then a lot of actors, like, no, I’m, like, just doing what everyone’s telling me to do.

And that from a young age of, like, you’re starting so young, of reading these lines, being these characters. Everyone knows you as these characters. You’re like, wait, wait, who is Taylor as a human being outside of that?

The Identity Crisis of Gossip Girl

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Well, I think I always had a really strong sense of self. I always knew that. And, you know, that’s why Grinch is weird. But once you get into Grinch is specific. And then once you get into teenage years with Gossip Girl and things, that’s where I think my identity crisis started to come into play.

Because that was a whole different world. Grinch is a film that came out that it clearly lives in an imagination world. In an imagination world. You know, I don’t walk out of my house and have a Cindy Lou Who wig on. So it’s, so there was a, there was a clear line there for me, I think, where this is playing dress up and this is Taylor.

And when it got into Gossip Girl, and suddenly that was a celebrity show and a tabloid show and New York and paparazzi, and suddenly you’re being photographed as a character by paparazzi and put into the tabloids as Taylor. And it’s going, I’m going, that’s not what I was wearing. That’s not me. That’s a character. And I’m getting things I did on the show that I have nothing to do with.

And so I think, and I was young, I was 14. So I think that, that, that started to bother me. And that’s where I started to realize, like, I’m not good at being someone else’s tool. Like, I need to be my own person.

ALEX COOPER: Taylor, you saying 14, 14, 13, 14, that’s like right when people are going into high school. And even if you’re not an actress, you, we’re all f*ed in the head.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, yeah.

ALEX COOPER: Because we’re like, who am I? And some people are going through puberty faster than others. And some people have, you know, are figuring out their sexual identity. And some people feel, and you’re just like what? Who am I? I am a disaster. So to also be doing it on the world stage and playing a character that can somewhat seem like you, but it’s not you. It’s just, it’s a lot.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: It was a mind f*.

The Move to Maryland and Finding Her Crowd

ALEX COOPER: So you’re living in St. Louis, you get more jobs and then you get Gossip Girl at 13 years old.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Well, we were missing a move, so I lived in St. Louis till I was 10. And then my dad switched jobs and we moved to Maryland. So now I’m in middle school in Maryland, and I have just started my first band, like an actual garage band with kids from my school. I finally found my little clique, which was kind of the first time in my life I felt that, and it was exciting to me.

And I was still the weird art kid who wore combat boots and leather jackets to school. And this was Potomac, Maryland. So this is very preppy and love that, you know, all the girls had bows in their hair and Uggs and matching Juicy Couture sweatsuits. And so I was very always just off in schools.

So I found my, you know, found my crowd, found the art crowd, started my first band and was doing really well. Like, I was, I was well adjusted to this, to this school and this group of friends. And that’s when Gossip Girl came around. And that’s when my, I said, they go, “you’re going to move to New York. You’re going to audition for this. And you would have to move to New York for it.”

No, no, no. I don’t want to do this anymore. I love what I’m, I love where I’m at. And 12 at the time. And my agent, my manager, they all flew to my house to convince me to audition for this. Going, “this is going to be a great opportunity and you’ll get to move to New York. And it’s fashion based. You love fashion and you love New York and blah, blah, blah.”

So long story short, ended up going to New York to audition for it.

ALEX COOPER: Where are your parents at this point?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, they’re there. They’re encouraging the, I mean, they’re encouraging this choice. And I don’t think it was with any kind of malice or anything like that. I think they’re just looking at it going, “this is a huge opportunity. And just because you’re having a good time in school right now doesn’t mean you pass up on something that’s this massive.”

ALEX COOPER: Did you at all, because I know I’ve talked to child actors that, like, there is like an obvious, the financial pressure of just, like, you’re a working child. And I know it’s like an awkward topic, so, like, share what you’re comfortable. But, like, was that a factor at all in this decision?

The Reality of Child Stardom

TAYLOR MOMSEN: It wasn’t spoken about to me, you know, and I’m still not even a teenager yet, so I never realized I was making money. Put it that way. Yeah. So that kind of it. This was always, this is fun, and you like this.

And there was an element of, you know, you do well, you get praise. You don’t do well, you don’t. And so it’s a lot to unpack, I think, probably as an adult, looking back on it.

And I think a lot of my life now, I spend not really thinking about it and going, because I’m one that very much does not live with regret or wishing I could change things or whatever. That’s just not my vibe because I think it’s kind of pointless. So I’m very, I’m always looking forward, and I reflect on things in order to write about them and process them and that kind of stuff. But it is what it is at this point. You know what I mean?

ALEX COOPER: Again, I think there is a natural empathy that I think the world now just has for child actors because I think of just the honest truth that just has come out for a lot of these people that went through this. And when you did get into Gossip Girl, did you then understand that you were making money? Or at what point do you think you were like, wait, you guys, this is also mine?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: It was Gossip Girl.

ALEX COOPER: And.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: It was. Well, I left. I moved out really young. So it was around that time that I started to realize, suddenly I was becoming in charge of my own finances and that kind of stuff. And so that’s when I kind of put everything together.

But it was Gossip Girl that made, Gossip Girl’s a weird one, because in one way, it was, you know, it was awesome, and in the other way, I really didn’t want to be there. So it was this, it was me starting to come into my own as a person and having this tug is where music is the thing, because I was starting to do that. I was always writing songs. I was always doing these things behind the scenes.

But now to be so universally famous for something that isn’t me was really challenging for me. And so I felt like I immediately became very defensive. I was defensive in interviews. I was very, also young, so arrogant, and kind of an asshole.

ALEX COOPER: And, you know, figuring it out in.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Front of everyone, but figuring it out in front of everyone and being judged, you know, very harshly for it while trying to push back against that, going, I don’t want this. I want this over here. And I don’t know how to get to this place, it’s almost like you.

ALEX COOPER: Couldn’t stop it once the train started moving. And as we know how big Gossip.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Girl got into, no one expected that. Yeah.

Landing the Role of Jenny Humphrey

ALEX COOPER: Okay. Take me to your agents. Decide. Okay, you got to do this. You eventually say yes. You go to New York, you read for the part. What was your first impression of Jenny Humphrey?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Well, I mean, I kind of related to the character. I never really auditioned for things that I didn’t understand. And feeling like an outcast in a world that you don’t fit in was kind of, that’s who I was. It wasn’t, I wasn’t from Brooklyn and, you know, all that stuff, but it was as a general concept of a character. I identified with her.

ALEX COOPER: I feel like now I was about to say this. I’m like, oh, this was kind of a theme lightly in the Grinch for you, too. But you’re 14 on set, and everyone else is bare minimum mid-20s. You are beyond the youngest person, really, on this set. How did that dynamic impact you?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Well, I grew up real fast, let’s put it that way. But no. I mean, everyone was cool. It was, I still had Connor, who played Eric. He’s still one of my best friends. Love that guy.

ALEX COOPER: Well, that’s nice, because you also had a lot of scenes with him.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: A lot of scenes with him. And he kind of, when I first moved to New York, he took me under his wing. I actually ended up going to his high school, and so he introduced me to his friend group, and, you know, that kind of whole world, which was only about a year.

I ended up graduating early because freshmen and trying to go to, it had to be a performing arts high school because that’s the only way that I could leave and work. And they would give you your work to leave. And I was really adamant about not wanting to be homeschooled because I wanted to make friends. But the reality is the work schedule was too much, and I wasn’t going there anyway. So I ended up leaving that homeschooling and then graduating at 16. So you’re 16, 15, 16.

Life in New York City

ALEX COOPER: You’re living in New York City. You’re no longer going to high school. What are you doing when you’re not filming?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I was working in the studio. I was writing and working in the studio and then getting into trouble, you know, but typical trouble as you.

ALEX COOPER: Would do in New York City as a young girl, that’s just like, I have all of this, and no one’s going to tell me no.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: And all my friends were older and I never once got ID’d, so it was, that’s also par with celebrity. You know, suddenly all those kinds, all those kinds of doors are just open to you and it’s fine.

ALEX COOPER: Did you go out with the cast at all or no, you had a separate.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I didn’t go out with them too much, but I would hang out at their apartments and stuff. Chase and Ed lived together at the time, and when I had Chase.

ALEX COOPER: On and he told me about rooftop parties. Okay, so you frequented the rooftop.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, yeah. We lived like two blocks from each other.

ALEX COOPER: So you were having time with your life?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, yeah. So I would spend a lot of time at their apartment and it was very boys club, which was very fitting to me. I’ve always fit in with boys clubs.

ALEX COOPER: I remember he came on. What was it? He was like, oh, I remember one time we had the party and Lindsay Lohan showed up and we’re like, act cool, act cool. This is cool, this is cool, this is cool. Okay, so you were there.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, yeah.

ALEX COOPER: So this is, that’s the, although still you’re young, but that’s kind of the fun side of, okay, you’re getting to become an adult. You’re doing it in a pretty fast paced way. But when I did interview Chase and Penn, and this is kind of what you had lightly alluded to and lightly talked about earlier in this interview, is the sudden and intense fame and the explosion of the show that no one could have anticipated. Just talk to me about it, from when it first starts. How does it impact you off the bat?

The Paparazzi Problem

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Well, I mean, the first, the first impact is the paparazzi. And that’s something that I hadn’t dealt with before. And in New York, there’s no escaping it, at least at that time. Now I still live in New York. And now I know now there’s kind of rules to it. You know where to go, you know where to go, you know where not to go. And you know, you know, if you’re in SoHo, be prepared to be photographed. It’s fair game.

But they were coming to my house. They were going to my sister’s school. They were, they were everywhere. And that kind of, that feeling of kind of being watched and stalked is just, it’s intimidating, is, I guess it’s, it’s unnerving.

ALEX COOPER: And there’s also no one that has the right answer of what to do other than just deal with it.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Just deal with it.

ALEX COOPER: And all of your castmates were going through it. But again, you were at such a young age that I can only imagine you’re trying to grow up and handle it, but also, did your parents move to the city?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Mom. My mom and me and my sister did. My dad was still working in Maryland.

ALEX COOPER: Okay. Was there ever a time that you can recall a memory of when you were like, no, no, no. This is really getting too much.

Media Exploitation and Negative Press

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I think the reality is I handled it really well. I think I’m pretty thick skinned at the end of the day. I’ve lived a very strange life and I’ve learned to kind of let things roll off my back. But there was, it was less the paparazzi in person that went, this is too much, and more what would come out afterwards from the photos and that that would turn.

And that really started once I started the band, the negative press, where there was this kind of hatred of what I was doing from the world and people being like, here’s, okay, here’s an example. I’m on stage, I’m 16, I’m playing a show. I’m wearing a little dress. I have underwear on. But a photographer goes and shoots up my skirt. He kneels down, shoots up my dress. And my tampon string had slipped out. And so my tampon string was sticking out of my underwear.

Perez Hilton puts that on the homepage of Perez Hilton. You can see the side of my p and everything. It’s still on the Internet. Have fun looking it up. But it’s a, I’m underage and the violation and it’s, and his headline, I don’t remember what it said, but the headline was very negative of slut. Look what, look how trashy Taylor is kind of thing.

And that kind of concept, it’s so invasive. And I laugh about it now and I laughed about it probably a week later because there’s nothing you can do about it. But that’s the kind of press that we’re talking about where people were very, or I was in a taxi cab and paparazzi jumped in the cab with me and it’s blinding lights and I go like this to cover my face. And my assistant and friend at the time covers my face.

And it’s on the homepage of whatever tabloid site going, “Taylor Momsen f*ed up leaving club.” Because my eyes are kind of rolling back from the, they pick the one shot that looks bad and try to spin some kind of negative story around it. So I was getting a lot of negative press. Looking back, I probably should have hired a publicist, but I didn’t know better.

ALEX COOPER: A publicist or a therapist or a bodyguard or. Jesus. There’s no right answer, though, dude. I.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Okay.

ALEX COOPER: You saying, though, that you’re like, I would probably laugh about it a week later. Did you ever have breakdowns over this kind of invasion of privacy and absolute exploitation?

Finding Salvation in Music

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Probably internally. I never showed them. And again, that’s, that’s where songwriting came into play. That’s where the first album. Everything turns around here. I don’t, because I don’t, it’s not all negative. It’s more that I learned to take the hard things in my life from any aspect of it, big or small, and turn it into music. And that’s how I’ve coped with life. Music is my therapy.

And it was, finding the right partners musically for me, was everything. And so when I did, it changed my life. And I suddenly then had a support system in my band and in Kato, our producer, who supported me for me and what I wanted to do and my vision and, and they had no ulterior motive or there was nothing from the outside. It was just pure support of you do what you want to do. And that was huge.

ALEX COOPER: I can’t imagine what you’re saying of that young girl in Maryland loving more than anything, making music and being like, I’m really good at this, and I’m finding my voice and all of that, then kind of getting thrust into this spotlight, like you said, through a career that you actually weren’t really that passionate about or excited about.

Leaving Gossip Girl

TAYLOR MOMSEN: No, and I was coming to. That’s the thing. When I was little, I liked it. I didn’t. But I didn’t know better. That was just—I started at 2, so it was something I just always did. So there was no choice in the matter. It wasn’t forced upon me. I wasn’t throwing tantrums, going, “I don’t want to do this,” and my parents going, “You have to.” It wasn’t that. But I wasn’t making my own decisions. I wasn’t seeing past it.

And when I hit 12, 13, 14 with Gossip Girl and this whole other world is thrown on you that you didn’t ask for—fame. Fame is this thing that you’ve got to kick over your shoulder, and it’s something you deal with that comes with it. But when you’re not prepared for it, which I don’t think anyone ever is. But when it’s something that I’m just going to work and doing what I’ve always done and now suddenly there’s this whole other aspect to it that you have to learn to navigate again.

ALEX COOPER: And the difference between being a woman and a man in this industry is astronomically different because it really is the photo that you just described being on the front page of someone’s website that is so—that should literally be illegal of how they’re violating your body. Especially not even a special child porn.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Right. I don’t know how that’s still—

ALEX COOPER: You’re underage. Underage or not. Yeah. Complete violation. I was looking up and I just started to see a lot of the tabloids also that they were referring to sometimes as this “wild child” or this “party girl.” And you’re giving a little bit this behind the scenes of—no, that’s literally just a picture that you’re in my cab, violating.

The “Wild Child” Persona

TAYLOR MOMSEN: You’re in my cab. First of all, I was never really a wild child. I was working all the time. I would go to set on Gossip Girl because I started making the first record while I was still on the show because I formed the band at 14. So I would go to work at 4 in the morning on Gossip Girl, work till 6 at whatever time we wrapped, go straight to the studio and work in the studio from whatever that time was till 2 a.m., come back, sleep for maybe an hour, and then do it all again.

So I was working all the time. So this whole “wild child” persona, it was just the makeup and my fashion choices, which were a bit outrageous, but very me. I was just being authentic. And so I think some of that was curated. And also, it’s my image. My image was a little out there. And I was very—I mean, now I call it pretentious. I look back on it and I go, it’s cringy. How pretentious some of the things I would say was and how I’d speak and carry myself.

But that’s who I was at the time. And I think that some of that pretension came across extra because I was being defensive, because I felt like I constantly had to defend who I was as a person. Every time someone asked me a question instead of just answering it honestly, you know?

ALEX COOPER: Yes. I think there was, again, you’re so young. There’s a level of internally, you were trying to protect yourself. And so I guess I was fighting.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Yeah, I was more fighting going, “This is me. You’re getting it wrong.” So I felt like I really had to fight to explain who I was, when now, as an adult, you just be who you are and relax into it.

Separating From Jenny Humphrey

ALEX COOPER: Yes. But I also think I was thinking about—this is, I’ve now interviewed a good amount of people who have been a part of a franchise that was all consuming. And the fandom level is just—you’ll never be able to describe it. Right. And there’s these very specific shows that just take the world by storm.

And I think the fandom—we are watching these romanticized shows that are very curated, and there’s directors and there’s writers rooms, and these are really good fing shows. But then we are blurring the lines between Jenny Humphrey is not Taylor Momsen, and Taylor Momsen is not Jenny Humphrey. But people don’t give a f. And so they want you to be Jenny Humphrey. And you’re like, “Guys, yes, I’m literally—I am from St. Louis. I’m not from Brooklyn.”

And so can you talk to me a little bit about having this hard time between separating yourself from Jenny Humphrey, Taylor, and how the f* did you mentally do that?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Well, I quit.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah. Oh, yeah, we’re getting there. I left.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I left. I went, “I can’t do this.” It was a struggle there for years, but what I did was I treated it very much like a job, a professional. I showed up, I did my job, and then I went to the studio.

ALEX COOPER: Did you resent her, though? The character.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I resented the—I didn’t resent—I don’t know how to explain this. When I left the show and I was no longer on it, and I was just touring with the band and just putting out music, and I quit everything else, and that’s all I was doing. And every question in every interview was still about Gossip Girl and Jenny Humphrey and “Will you ever go back to acting?” and blah, blah, blah, and the list of questions on and on and on.

The first year, you get it. The second year, you kind of laugh at it. By, as it kept going, I was going, “Oh, I’m never going to outlive this character.” And that’s a weird thing to come to grips with. So you just kind of—I ignored it. You live your life.

ALEX COOPER: And I feel like from what we’re talking about is you’re going to the studio, you’re recording after Gossip Girl. But then, people really didn’t want to hear about you as a musician because they’re—

TAYLOR MOMSEN: They didn’t take it seriously. Which in their defense, I wouldn’t have either.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, talk about that.

Fighting For Musical Credibility

TAYLOR MOMSEN: If you brought to me a 14-year-old fronted rock band with a chick who was on a soap opera, I would roll my eyes at it and go, “Yeah, I don’t give two f*s about whatever you’re trying to show me right now.”

ALEX COOPER: Fair.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: So of course they did. Because I picked the hardest path. I didn’t—trying to gain credibility in a world that is impossible to gain credibility coming from the circumstances that I came from. A, rock and roll, hard as hell. B, a woman in rock and roll, hard as hell. And then three, teenage soap star wants to be taken serious.

So it was just—I had everything stacked against me in that way. And so there’s a lot of “This is fake” and “She’s a poser” and “This is so and so writes her songs” and blah blah blah. None of which was true. I write everything myself. I co-produce the records. It is—there is no—there’s no one but me and the band involved in what we do. And it’s incredibly personal and I take it incredibly seriously.

And I realized very quickly that the only way to overcome that kind of hate or whatever is to, A, shut it out and just do it. Well, you just do it. You keep going. We toured the world relentlessly. I kept writing songs, we kept putting out records. And you have to do it the old school way.

ALEX COOPER: You’re like, “I’m not going anywhere.” Consistency just keeps—here we go again. Another song.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Because you can’t keep explaining yourself, there’s no point in explaining yourself. So I got tired of that and gave up on it. And then that’s when things actually started to get easier. Is when I stopped being so defensive and just was—well, isn’t that f*ing beautiful?

ALEX COOPER: But it sounds so straightforward, but it’s so f*ing hard.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh yeah.

ALEX COOPER: And again, because we’re talking—just reminding everyone again, 14, 15, 16 years old. Most people are having their f*ing sweet 16s in Alabama and being like, “Mom, can I get a padded bra?” And you’re trying to pivot as a young woman in an industry where most of the time we are only accepted as one thing. And it’s like good luck.

And okay, we’re—now we’re going to get there because now I want to finish off with you. Said, “Bitch, I fing quit.” Let’s talk about it. How did you—when—how early on did you actually know? “I want to get the f out of here.”

Breaking Free From The Contract

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Definitely. When did I actually leave? Season 3? I never watched the show, so my timeline’s always messed up.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, so you leave.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I’m going—season four. Season four.

ALEX COOPER: Season four.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: So season one’s a whirlwind. It’s probably around—season two is whenever I started the band. When I met Ben and Kato, and it changed everything.

ALEX COOPER: Did you talk to them, though, about being on this show, being like, “Guys, I’ve got to get out of here”?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, yeah.

ALEX COOPER: You’re like, “Guys—”

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, yeah, I’m in jail. Get me out.

ALEX COOPER: You’re like, “Guys, I’m in jail. Get me out.”

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I knew I had to leave, but at the same time, leaving a career that is so prosperous was not easy. Yeah, it was an easy decision for me. Not—sorry, I shouldn’t say not easy. Not easy in the way of to actually get out of a contract was not easy.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, talk to me. What happened?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: This was hard. So it started with a, “I don’t want to do this anymore,” but you’re in a lock and key contract with CW, Warner Brothers, you know, all of that stuff. And it came down to—it was a very long battle of me arguing everyone and going, “Get me out of this. I can’t do this anymore. This is killing me. I have something else I want to do with my life, and it has nothing to do with this, and I can’t be stuck here anymore.”

And, you know, you’re called ungrateful and you’re called all the things that come along with, “How dare you turn your back on something that’s been so successful for you?” That was hard. But it came down—when people say that, I just want—you don’t know what you’re talking—you’re not in my shoes. So how dare you judge this? I was very, very defensive.

But it came down to they wouldn’t let me out of the contract. The head of Warner Brothers said, “F Taylor Momsen. No fing way.” I go to the writers and Stephanie Savage and Josh Schwartz, who I love, genuinely love, and explained the situation. There’s, you know, lots of talks about it, but they essentially went, “Well, we can’t let you out of the contract because that’s not our job, but we can write you out of the show.”

“We understand what you’re trying to do here. You’re not going to be able to act because you’re under contract. So you can’t go take another job and join some other TV show or some other movie.” And I’m like, “That’s perfectly fine. I’m trying to get out. It’s not what I want to do anyway. It’s good.”

So I really have to credit them for doing that for me because they did not have to. And they wrote me out of the show so I could go on tour and be in a band.

ALEX COOPER: How did you share this with castmates? Were you close with anyone enough to share it or just kind of say peace out?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Not really. I kind of just Irish dipped and just—I wasn’t in the script. The next week they’re like, “Where’s Taylor?” I mean, they all knew I was making music. They all knew I had a band. I would play them stuff. I was working on the first record while I was on the show. So I would come in and play songs and play music and that kind of stuff. But I don’t think anyone knew how serious I was at that stage.

ALEX COOPER: Do you remember your last day on set? Were you counting down the hours?

The Final Scene

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I remember. I actually do now that you bring it up. My last scene was in the—I think it might be the last. I never again. I’ve never watched the show but I think it might be the last scene you see Jenny in.

And so it’s me on the train going to live with my mom or whatever the write out story was. And I’m leaning on the window and I think that was the wrap scene which is very fitting.

And then I came back for the very finale because just as a fan of television and a fan of the shows, I love when you have the full cast together again. You want to full circle that and round it out.

ALEX COOPER: So you mentioned, which I do think is a great point that you walked away from a pretty stable job to create this full career out of this band, that making it in the music industry is not easy. As we kind of talked about, was your family supportive of this decision?

Family Support and Determination

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Yeah, I mean I don’t think they—at this point I was so strong headed and bulldozing my way into what I wanted in my life that I don’t think anyone could have stopped me. Not think no one could have stopped me. And yes, some people tried.

So I think there was a level of they had to accept that this is what I was doing and either get on board or get out.

ALEX COOPER: The dichotomy of this actress to then this musician. And you talked about it a little bit of people not taking it seriously in the very beginning. How did that affect though, just how you felt about your art?

Because what you’ve been talking about this whole interview is how to the core passionate you are about making music. And a lot of it you say in the beginning was just sometimes people weren’t even hearing my music. This has been some—from a very young age I’ve been writing.

So at the beginning of your life, it’s been really just for you as this outlet. But then as you’re now trying to make a career out of it and people are still like, “Oh, Jenny Humphrey is trying to start a band.” How the f* did you—

TAYLOR MOMSEN: It was just like that too.

ALEX COOPER: How f*ing annoying. And how did you—I know you said you kind of put your head down, but were there moments where you were like, I’m never going to shake this?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, yeah, there was definitely feelings of that.

Creating a Persona

ALEX COOPER: Did you lean in any capacity, persona wise, heavily into certain aspects to try to really detract from the Jenny aura?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Probably okay. Probably not so calculated thing. You have to know. I mean, I really love comedy and I think everything’s funny and that’s kind of how I get through life. I laugh at everything. You got to be able to make light of it or it’ll eat you.

So anything that I could—I really enjoyed shocking people because I thought it was funny. So I was 16, 15, 16, and I was like, oh, I’m going to wear stripper shoes on stage. I’m going to put X’s on my tits and flash them. I’m going to wear outfits from Hustler and be as outrageously pornographic Lolita over the top because it freaks people out and it’s super funny. Loved it.

And so that became a part. But that’s also who I was. I enjoyed that. It wasn’t calculated of like, if I do this, I’ll get this reaction. That’s how I dressed in my everyday life. But once I started to see the reaction, I went, well, let’s just—oh, you don’t like my dark eye makeup? Let’s make it a little darker. Oh, my really tall heels are bothering you? Let’s make them loose sight and put money in them.

It was that kind of—so I think that that was definitely a fun. But I had fun with it.

ALEX COOPER: I feel like again, some people don’t deal with it on the world stage, but that is relatable and playing with your image and as women outfits and makeup and everything to really self express.

And I love that you’re saying I, yes, I of course understood what it was doing, but I was still enjoying myself. Oh yeah, because half of it is people can have social commentary on this, but guess what? You’re now finally doing what you truly f*ing love and that’s all that matters.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: And I was always my own stylist and my own everything. So I went shopping and I put those things together and some of them are a little questionable when you look back, but in general that’s—I was being the most authentic version of myself at that time.

The Band Name Origin

ALEX COOPER: So what is the story behind the name the Pretty Reckless?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Story behind the Pretty Reckless. Okay, so we formed the band. We now need a band name, which turns out band name is the hardest thing in the f*ing world to come up with. Especially in the Internet age. Every band name’s taken or trademarked. So anything you think of, can’t use that, can’t use that, can’t use that.

Cato came up with the Reckless and I went, I love it because I knew I wanted it to be a “the” because of the Beatles. And I wanted it to be one word, not one of those long sentence band names like something simple and whatever. So he went, the Reckless. Perfect. That’s the name.

We go to trademark it. There’s an issue. There’s some band from the 70s called the Reckless. Can’t get it. And my lawyer goes, “Well, just add a word, add any word and people will abbreviate it. You know, like Led Zeppelin. People call it Zeppelin.” And she goes, “And once people abbreviate it, you’ll have, you know, the trademark, it’ll be common or whatever the blue pole is, but then now you can trademark that also.”

And so we went, okay, what’s the Pretty Reckless? Better than Moderately Reckless. Yeah, sounds good. Didn’t really think of it much and then didn’t notice that everyone or didn’t think ahead that everyone would abbreviate it to TPR not the Reckless. And hence the Pretty Reckless was born.

But I love it now. At the end of the day, the music makes the band name, not the other way around.

ALEX COOPER: So it does.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Now I’m fully the Pretty Reckless. I am the Pretty Reckless.

ALEX COOPER: Point you are. It’s good.

Touring with Soundgarden

ALEX COOPER: You went on tour obviously with one of your favorite bands. Yeah, Soundgarden. And can you just talk to me about how you were offered that opportunity and what it meant to you at that time in your career?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I have pillars of musicians that I look up to and tiers of musicians. And when we first formed the Pretty Reckless, my two pillars are the Beatles and Soundgarden hands down. And you know, they’re my North Stars and they were for Ben and Cato also, and that was one of the first.

So we formed the Pretty Reckless over the love of those two bands and AC/DC and Pink Floyd and the Doors and you know, the list goes on and on, but Soundgarden and the Beatles.

So to get the call, first of all, Soundgarden’s been broken up forever. And so when their new record came out, they got back together. I about died of excitement and happiness. And then to go forward and get the call that they are asking us to open for them was surreal and so validating and so exciting.

And I cannot picture a moment in my life where I was more happy than that moment. That was the coolest thing to ever happen to me. I was floored. I could not believe it. And it was fantastic.

And this is obviously going somewhere sad, but it was the greatest experience. And everything about it was phenomenal. They’re incredible. Meeting them was incredible. Getting to know them and you always hear, you know, “Don’t meet your heroes.” And so there was a—I had a bit of nervousness around that of what if they aren’t this thing I’ve built up in my head?

Oh, no. They’re exactly what I built up in my head. They’re kind. They’re awesome. Their musicality is off the charts. It’s ridiculous. Their records speak to me on a level that no other band does. And it’s like, I feel like I knew them before I met them because I—and I think a lot of people with their favorite bands feel that way.

They know they’re—it feels like a family member, something I’ve been listening to forever as a part of you. And so to have that become a reality was just an insane, insane experience.

Not to mention they were—it’s kind of as credible as it can possibly get. And so to come from everything we just talked about and now be offered this tour, the acceptance that I felt from the rock community and from—and them putting their stamp of approval on me and the band was just massive.

It came with so many layers of exciting weight to get that call. It was just the greatest thing ever. And I got it. I fing love them, Alex. I love them. So fing mad again.

The Impact of Loss

ALEX COOPER: It’s like, I think anyone that is in the world of art—there are, you just said the pillars, which you look up to, whether it’s your director, and you look up to some of the most iconic directors that you have in your brain that inspire and influence you in so many ways.

You wouldn’t be the Pretty Reckless in the exact way you are had you not had that influence from them. So it’s like the passion that you have is understandable because it’s had such an impact on you. And then obviously, the tragic—

TAYLOR MOMSEN: It leads to tragedy.

ALEX COOPER: Can you talk to me about—the lead singer passes away during that tour?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Yeah, well, it was the last night of tour and we played the last show in Detroit and we all said, bye, do this again sometime. You know, see you on the road. We all got on our tour buses, went to bed and I was woken up the next morning really early because the news had been passed around the camp and I was dead asleep.

And first of all, I’m not as we’ve talked about, I’m not a morning person. So I think my brain takes a while to wake up. So hearing the news that someone I just spoke to and hugged and talked to a couple hours ago is no longer here, I couldn’t process it at first.

I was confused. I was going, what are you saying to me right now? And that turned into sinking in, which turned into the biggest pit in my stomach of devastation and the worst—just the worst feeling in the world.

I mean I felt the f* apart. I fell on the ground. And that was kind of the start of my—we can call my dark period. It was just—it was so shocking and so—everything about that experience for me was so traumatic that I still get shaky talking about it. It’s something I try not to think about too much. But that is brutal.

ALEX COOPER: It’s brutal beyond words because you’re—what we’re talking about too is some of the highest highs of your life and then immediately wrapped into the—

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Lowest lows of your life within a two hour period.

ALEX COOPER: And then about a year later one of your other best friends.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Yeah.

Grief and Loss

ALEX COOPER: Passed away.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Yeah. This is Cato, who I’ve spoken about through Cato Kando. He produced all our records. He’s my best friend in the world. You know, we’re inseparable. A talk every day kind of friend. And he was essentially the fifth member of the Pretty Reckless. He just didn’t tour with us and we lost him in a motorcycle accident.

And it was as I said before, that was the nail in the coffin for me. Like I was on a—after Chris, I was in the start of a downward spiral and we continued to tour. I quickly came to a place that I like of realization that I was not in a place to be public. Like I needed some time with this. I had to disappear and go try to handle this grief that was f*ing eating me.

And the way that I’ve always dealt with hard things in life is to write about them, as I’ve said, and to turn it into music. And so I was finally starting to kind of come to grips with Chris. Not well. Like I was definitely not doing well, but I was going, we got to get out of this. Let’s get in the studio, let’s make some music. Like, let’s push forward and do what we’ve always done in hard times.

And we booked the studio, and as soon as that happened, I got the call that Cato had passed away in a motorcycle accident, and it floored me. So it was kind of a giant one, two punch because they were not that far apart from each other. And I just went off the rails. I didn’t handle that well, to say the least.

I got very heavy into substance abuse and this cloud of depression that I couldn’t shake. So something that I was teetering with before really took on a life of its own where I essentially gave up. I gave up on life. And when everything I love is dead, what’s the f*ing point?

ALEX COOPER: When you were going through that period in your life, were you alone? Who did you have around you to keep you getting up every morning?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I mean, it’s the band. I mean, the band is my family, you know, Ben, Mark and Jamie. But I did a very good job of isolating myself at that time period. And, you know, they reach out, they check in, they come over, we play, you know, whatever we did. But a lot of the time, I just shut off my phone. I was kind of unreachable.

And that was very calculated. I was very thought, like, I knew I wasn’t in a good place. And A, there’s shame that comes with that if you don’t want to be seen. And B, I also knew that I had kind of given up. Like, I had to make a very conscious choice at a point where I was either going to live or I was going to die.

And I had to either stop everything I was doing and get my life together or this was going to kill me. And I luckily chose to move forward, but that was—it was that serious, you know? Like, it wasn’t—I was in this hole of blackness that I didn’t know how to get out of. And I think the bigger thing was that I was perfectly fine with that.

Like, I was perfectly fine kind of staying in that place and fading away into nothing. And that was fine with me. And so it took a long time to get to the other side of that.

ALEX COOPER: Right? Dude, grief is so fing terrifying because sometimes it’s just easier to sink into it. So much easier because you’re actually actively having to climb out. And then there’s the guilt of, but they don’t get to experience life anymore. And so it’s like your head can go to really clearly dark fing places. How did you begin to pull yourself out? And yes, you had music, but…

Finding Music Again

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Well, it is, though. Like, it sounds cliche. Even when I say it out loud, it sounds made up, but the hard—I mean, one of the hardest things, though, was dealing with all of this. Like, music’s been my solace. It’s always been the thing I can turn to. Listening to records or whatever that makes you feel better.

And after Chris and Cato, I didn’t have that anymore. Everything I listened to made it worse. Like, I couldn’t listen to Soundgarden anymore. Couldn’t listen to the Beatles because we listened to Beatles with Cato. Couldn’t listen to our own music because I made it with Cato.

Like, everything, every band had a memory attached to it. Every song had an emotion that I couldn’t handle. And so suddenly, music was not in my life anymore. And that was the scariest thing for me because I suddenly—this thing that’s my identity that has gotten me through everything is no more. Along with these people. So it was like—it was almost like three losses at the same time.

And eventually I got to—time is the answer. But eventually I got to a place where I could start listening to records again. Not Soundgarden. But I went, where did this start? Like, I tried to—I very calculatedly went, where did I fall in love with this? Like, how do I find myself again?

And so I started at the very beginning, which was the Beatles, where it’s the first band I fell in love with. It’s the reason I started writing songs. It’s, you know, all the things started there. Listened to every Beatles record, listened to the Anthology, listened to over and over and over to find joy in it again.

And then moved on from that in kind of almost chronological order of the bands that I fell in love with growing up to now, eventually ending in Soundgarden. And I found a place where I could listen to it and have it bring me some kind of comfort again.

But also writing the record “Death by Rock and Roll.” So having to get that out, that record kind of poured out of me in a way that other records have not. Some songs have, but not full, complete albums like that. And that record was so inspired and it wasn’t for anyone. And I didn’t have the intention of putting it out. I didn’t know if we’d record it. I didn’t know any of that, because how are we going to make a record without Cato? I don’t know.

Just so many things to overcome. But the writing of that record was something that I had to do for me, and it’s almost like I didn’t write it, but I think by getting it out, that was the first step of me starting to be able to turn the corner.

ALEX COOPER: That’s really beautiful because I think it’s so isolating when you’re going through that, like you just said, and to have to almost reintroduce yourself to something you love so much, but that now is causing you so much pain because of the remembering of what was connected to that is torture almost.

But you also have to always remember in grief that most of these people would never want you to leave the one thing that connected you guys. And slowly the goal is to get back to it so you can feel them through, I’m sure, the music, and you can feel them when you’re making it. But even the concept of making it in the beginning is so f*ing hard.

Carrying the Scars

TAYLOR MOMSEN: So hard it seems impossible, because at the end of the day, I try to say Cato’s name every day. I don’t even try to. I just still do because it keeps him around, you know? But he’s also—he was such a big part of my life that there’s no way to not talk about him. And he’s still such a big part of my life.

And I think that that’s the key to loss and to—is I learned that while that pain never goes away and that feeling of missing them and all the things that come with grief, the intensity does. So it’s kind of like when it happens, you’re sliced down the middle, you’re bleeding everywhere, blood gushing.

And as time passes, that wound heals and you’re left with a massive scar. And that scar, you’re not bleeding all over the floor anymore, but now that’s a part of you. And so I look at everyone I’ve lost as like, they’re a scar I carry with me every day. And I’m proud to have those scars. I’m proud that they’re a part of my life and that I loved them that much to be able to feel the way I feel.

ALEX COOPER: You know, I appreciate you sharing that because I think I’ve lightly talked about grief on the show, but I think it’s always so—one, yes, subjective. But when you put it like that, I think it can just help a lot of people. Because I’m sure there’s literally someone watching that’s like day one starting to do the battle of get through it.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: It’s brutal. And the only thing I would say is that at the end of the day, this record, the record’s very hopeful. Like, it starts off very dark and very bleak, but there’s this kind of positive turn towards the end of it that there is light at the end of this tunnel that seems impossible and seems never ending.

And if you can just wait it out, you will get to the other side. And that’s the thing that I say to anyone who’s struggling with depression or loss or anything even remotely close to this kind of feeling, is that it does get better. And it’s the f*ed up thing about that, is when people say that to you when you’re in it, you want to punch them in the face.

ALEX COOPER: So real. You’re like, shut the f* up. What do you know?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: What the f* do you know? It gets better. Like, what a cliche thing.

ALEX COOPER: And then you live it. You’re like, oh, f*. It does.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: But it does. Time does it. If you can just hang on long enough to get to the other side, there is another side waiting for you.

Women in the Music Industry

ALEX COOPER: Walk me through what you have felt with double standards when it comes to music and the music industry for you as a woman.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I’ll be honest, it’s probably an unpopular answer, but I tend to not—I get asked a lot what it’s like to be a woman in rock and roll and a woman in music and the double, you know, all the things you just said. And while, yes, it exists, I kind of don’t look at it that way.

Like, I kind of live in my own—maybe I live in my own world, my own mental bubble, but I look at it like, music is music. Good music is good music. Gender doesn’t really matter, and most music’s crap. Like, I see it as—I want to compete with the best people.

And so the only thing with—not the only thing, but the thing with being a woman in the music industry is that you get compared to women in the music industry. Not that that’s a bad thing. There’s a lot of amazing women, but you’re cutting out an entire sect of musicians and not even putting those two next to each other because of a gender thing. So I don’t really know because I kind of just don’t really think of it that way.

ALEX COOPER: But I think that’s the best way to look at it. And I think that doesn’t just pertain to music, which I agree with you, and I’m going to take that as advice moving forward, because I think you’re right. There’s so many industries that we just talk about this woman. Is she as good as this woman? Or these actors or, oh, these politicians or, oh, these hosts or whatever it be.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: And most of the time, you’re only comparing them to the same gender. And I agree with you. It’s so limiting.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: It’s so limiting, especially as a woman.

Dating as a Musician

ALEX COOPER: It’s also a lot of times derogatory because it’s like, well, for the women, yes, you guys are pretty good.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: And you’re like, what does that mean?

ALEX COOPER: I remember when I signed a deal for my podcast in the early days of my career, and everyone was like, the first woman did blah, blah, blah. And I was like, we know, but the deal is bigger than most men, so shouldn’t we just be like, take out the gender.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Take out the gender. Why are the big—

ALEX COOPER: Focusing on that deals and podcasting, not for a woman, you’re like what does it have to do with—

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Everyone knows I’m a woman.

ALEX COOPER: Right?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: So that I think is great advice for people listening. It’s just like, yes, you can’t control the way that people are going to spin it, but you can control how you digest it and you own it. Of like, no, I’m not going to let that affect what I’m doing.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: No, it doesn’t affect what I’m doing at all. And I mean, I own my femininity. I love being a woman most the time, except for that time around the month.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: You just have to look at it. Like you said, you don’t let it affect what you’re doing. Like I’m assuming, who do you look up to? Who are your heroes?

ALEX COOPER: Some of them are women and some of them are men.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Exactly.

ALEX COOPER: It’s not. Yeah.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: You don’t only have women idols.

ALEX COOPER: Right, right.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: You know, it’s a good point. So why are you looking at it like that at the same time when you put the woman stats in there? Our stats are really good. We have a bunch of number ones and breaking records and that kind of thing.

ALEX COOPER: Hey.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: But the way I handle my art, the music I make, whatever, that never comes into my mind at all. Because why would it? I wake up, I wake up a woman.

ALEX COOPER: Facts. Okay, Taylor, this is Call Her Daddy.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Yes.

ALEX COOPER: Let’s talk about your dating life.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Okay.

ALEX COOPER: What is it like trying to date as a musician?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I don’t know if this has anything to do with musician and probably just me as a person, but I think that I’m a very trusting person and I’m a very guarded person at the same time. So anyone I let into my life in any form of a relationship, there’s a life bond there. I’m not letting people into my life that are fleeting. It’s just not.

I mean you have those people in your life, but I’m always looking for something that has depth to it, that is filling something that I need in my life and that’s from friends to relationships to whatever. Managers, it doesn’t matter. They have to have a quality about that that is deep and very normal, I think. So there’s that.

ALEX COOPER: What is a non-negotiable you look for in someone that you’re dating?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Well, kind, funny, got to be funny, got to make me laugh, smart and we have to have the same musical taste or that’s just not going to work. That’s just not going to work at all.

ALEX COOPER: You’re also like, you also have to think my music is amazing. Thank you very much.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: The ground I walk on. Blah, blah, blah.

ALEX COOPER: Just a classic.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Just a tad.

Past Relationship Lessons

ALEX COOPER: You have some songs that you talk about unhealthy relationship dynamics. What is something that you used to put up with when you were younger that you definitely wouldn’t tolerate now in romantic relationships?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Using me? I think I definitely went through a phase of dating guys that weren’t interested in me for me. They were interested in what I had to give them and what I had to offer them, especially around the show. Like, well, if I date her, I can go to this party and meet so and so and blah, blah, blah.

And I’m talking about people that were in the industry at the time and stuff, but weren’t necessarily as successful and using me for something other than myself. And when you’re in it, you don’t see that. And when you get out of it, the anger that comes with that and the betrayal of, I just gave you myself and you weren’t interested in that at all, is super f*ed up feeling.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah. That can lead to some f*ing trust issues.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Yeah. So I can just, the good news is I can really see through that now.

ALEX COOPER: And you were young and it’s like—

TAYLOR MOMSEN: And I was young.

ALEX COOPER: That makes sense. Have you ever been cheated on?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Yes.

ALEX COOPER: How did you find out?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I walked in on it.

ALEX COOPER: Taylor.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: Taylor.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Yep.

ALEX COOPER: No, you didn’t.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, yeah, I did.

ALEX COOPER: No.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, yeah, I did. At a party. Walked into a back room looking for a bathroom or drink or something. I don’t know, whatever the f* I was doing.

ALEX COOPER: And did they know you were at the party too?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, yeah.

ALEX COOPER: And you?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I was probably coming from an event or something and then stopped by later, but oh, yeah. No. Walked in on full naked, full on sex happening.

ALEX COOPER: Did you just be like, okay, I’m going to walk out or what was your reaction?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I left and I went with my best friend at the time and we went and got a tattoo.

ALEX COOPER: What is the tattoo?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: A teeny tiny star. It’s my one and only tattoo.

ALEX COOPER: How did you come up with the star? You’re like, I just got cheated on.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I don’t know. Yeah, we got matching tattoos. That was—

ALEX COOPER: Did the person call you after?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: Did they call and apologize or they never—

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I’m trying to remember now how this all went down. Oh, there was a big, you know, f you match and I fing lose my f*ing number. Can’t do that.

ALEX COOPER: You got a cute tattoo out of it though.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I got my one and only.

ALEX COOPER: That’s your only tat.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Mm.

ALEX COOPER: Oh, my God. Post cheating. Classic. Love that for you.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: The best part was it was St. Mark Street and my friend, it was a guy and he got one here too. It was twice as big as mine. Mine took ten times longer than his.

ALEX COOPER: Was it painful?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: It was totally. It’s right on the rib. But the guy doing it, I think really just staring at my boob because my teeny tiny star took forever. It’s essentially a mole.

ALEX COOPER: You’re like, babe, this is actually a dot. We’ve been done.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: It’s a dot. I’m essentially Phoebe in Friends when she gets her mom tattooed on her and it’s just the dot.

ALEX COOPER: And this motherf*er’s been done for an hour. And you’re like, yeah.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Are we still going? Okay. Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, well, good to know you’re one tat and would you get more? No, you’re done.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Beatles didn’t have tattoos. I’m good.

ALEX COOPER: Oh, I love that. That’s your compass. North star. Beatles didn’t have tattoos. Taylor won’t have tattoos.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I’m also over evolving. So I don’t want to. It’s hard for, I’m too indecisive.

ALEX COOPER: I am the same way. I don’t even know what I would want on my body for forever. So I’m just not going to do it.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I draw on myself and I use those Inkbox pens and the ones that last because that’s fun. But then it fades.

The Christmas EP and The Grinch

ALEX COOPER: Okay, let’s talk about your Christmas EP. I know we mentioned it earlier, but ’tis the f*ing season. This is, it’s so good.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Thank you.

ALEX COOPER: I was listening to it on my way here. And first of all, I want you to know that hearing you put together the song with your six-year-old self, I was getting emotional.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: It made me emotional. Hearing it back for the first time, singing it’s one thing, but then actually listening to it come through the speakers after the first take of it, it’s beautiful. You well up. There’s something so—

ALEX COOPER: And I love how the EP, it’s also, you did such a brilliant job of, there’s some slow, there’s some rock there. You really gave us everything that we needed and more. The lyrics are perfect. I’m so excited to be listening to this during Christmas time.

The Grinch is also re-releasing in theaters for the 25th anniversary. What does it mean to you that that movie and now full circle with this EP, this is now just becoming a part of so many people’s Christmas traditions?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Well, I think that over the years, realizing that Grinch was never going to go away, I became more and more fond of it and seeing how much joy that it brings to people, old and young, and every year, people discovering it and just loving it so much makes me really happy to be a part of something that brings that much happiness to other people.

How very Cindy Lou Who of me. But it’s true. It makes me nostalgic and proud that I can bring smiles to people around the world every year or that I’m not me, but I’m a part of something that does.

ALEX COOPER: Have you rewatched it?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, I’ve definitely watched Grinch. Yes, of course.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, that makes me—

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I don’t watch it every year, but I definitely watch a few scenes every year. And this year I want to go see it in theaters because—

ALEX COOPER: Can you fing imagine? I’m looking into camera. Can you imagine being sitting in the fing movie theater? And you’re sitting in the fifth row, the sixth row, you turn to your right and you’re like, Taylor f*ing Momsen. Wait, Cindy Lou Who? I’m dead. That would be crazy, right? But you got to just roll up, though.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, totally.

ALEX COOPER: And have it be a public theater.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, yeah.

ALEX COOPER: You just come by.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I’m not posh at all. I’m New York. I’ll just go to theater.

ALEX COOPER: The way that would be just the most healing experience. No, that is really f*ing cool. Okay, we’re coming up into the new year.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Yes, we are.

ALEX COOPER: What are you looking forward to in this next year of your life?

Touring with AC/DC and New Music

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, my goodness. I’m looking forward to so much. We are going back out on tour with AC/DC, so that’s going to be amazing. It’s been amazing so far, but the fact that we get to continue this journey with them is incredible. They’re just the coolest. They’re the loudest band you’ve ever heard in your life in the most awesome way possible. They’re the coolest people. They’re so kind.

But their live show is a schooling in what rock and roll is. And to get to watch that every night is just mind blowing. So to continue that with them is very exciting for me. So I can’t wait for that.

And tour, really, the long and short of it is tour and new music and tour and new music and the cycle continues. But it’s always fun to put out new music and tour new songs because it’s the start of a new era. And that’s always a really fun place to be in.

Understanding the Real Person Behind the Roles

ALEX COOPER: I appreciate you being so open today because I think as an interviewer, there’s such a clear pattern that I’m just starting to see. And this is why I love my job so much, is I get to sit down with people that maybe people have understood them through a lens that just was not their personal lens. It’s through different pieces of other people’s art, especially if you’re an actress.

And I think it’s beautiful to hear from you exactly what that time was like in your life. It doesn’t mean people can’t still enjoy Gossip Girl. It doesn’t mean people can’t still go and enjoy the Grinch. But hearing how it was affecting you as a real human being, that’s work. And I think sometimes people forget that was a job for you.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Yes.

ALEX COOPER: And so as much as we can enjoy it as consumers, you’re a real human being that was getting paid to do these things. And who the f* enjoys their work at all times?

TAYLOR MOMSEN: No one.

ALEX COOPER: No one.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: It’s a job.

ALEX COOPER: So giving some grace.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Although I take that back. I enjoy my work now every minute of every day because it’s your passion. The only thing that you don’t enjoy is the actual travel. The physical travel of tour is brutal.

ALEX COOPER: So we can always find something.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: But other than that, the fact that I get to play music as a career and call it a job is insanity. And it’s like, I’m so lucky. Playing the pleasure plane is just fun. That’s what it should be. And I think that I feel so fortunate.

Finding Your True Purpose

ALEX COOPER: But you’re also just the exact example. And I’ve always said this, and I know it is a privilege, but it’s like if you are able to turn your purpose and your passion into your job or your career, it is such a privilege and it’s so incredible to experience it.

But the way that you talk about acting versus being a musician, it’s like there is no comparison. You light up. This is who you are. This is what you are. And so, yes, you were known as something, but I think it’s beautiful to now let the world fully lean in and get to know you as this version of yourself because this is your true self and that’s what we want to celebrate. It’s like, let people be who the f* they are. End of story. Goodbye.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: Oh, my God. Thank you so much for having me on. You’re kind of popping my podcast cherry. I think maybe I’ve done a couple, but I’m not a, I don’t do this a lot.

ALEX COOPER: Well, you crushed. That was amazing.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I hope that was all right.

ALEX COOPER: Thank you, Taylor.

TAYLOR MOMSEN: I really appreciate it. You make this very comfortable.

ALEX COOPER: I’m happy you were cozy. That was the goal. Thank you. Seriously, thank you for coming on.

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