Transcript: Cliffe Knechtle’s Interview on The Tucker Carlson Show

They’re the scumbags.

But then he was put in a gulag in Siberia and he was living among very low income people and he was aghast at the immorality, the evil of those people. And suddenly Solzhenitsyn woke up to the fact, quote, “The line separating good from evil does not run between parties, classes and countries. Rather, the line separating good from evil runs through every human heart.”

And then Solzhenitsyn understood, I need help, I need a savior, and he converted to Christ. That was sheer brilliance on his part and also real sensitivity, I think, to reality.

Modern Manifestations of Relativism

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, well, he learned from what he saw around him, unlike so many of us who don’t learn anything. So you think that this is accelerating?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: And what are the manifestations of it? How do you know that?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Well, obviously, when it comes to the issue of sexuality in our culture, it is tragic, absolutely tragic to watch people say, “I don’t know whether I’m male or female, but wait a second. I’m the one who defines it. Because everything is relative.”

So if I want to define myself as an individual or as they and them, that’s cool. If I want to be he today, she tomorrow, they the day after tomorrow, that’s okay. Because truth is something I create in my head. It’s simply my perception.

So if my perception today is I’m a he, tomorrow my perception is I’m a she, and the day after tomorrow my perception is I’m a they, that’s all equally valid because it’s all just a cosmic crapshoot. That’s all life is.

It’s ultimately meaningless because God didn’t create me. No intelligent mind put me here for a purpose. Life is ultimately meaningless, so I’ll just create it according to my own desires.

TUCKER CARLSON: So flesh out why you think that’s tragic. I mean, it’s self evidently silly because you wind up making claims that are just counter to observable truth. Like, I can change my sex. No, you can’t. It’s determined at the DNA level. So like, no, that’s untrue. So you could laugh at that. Why do you call it tragic?

The Tragic Consequences of Self-Definition

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I call it tragic because I lose my understanding of why you’re valuable. And if you rub me the wrong way, there is nothing that says I can’t cut you off at the knees. And the whole idea of forgiving is ridiculous.

TUCKER CARLSON: Can you stop this? I feel like you’re at the heart of something I don’t fully understand. But if you don’t mind explaining it a little more fully, why does that statement, “I can change my sex because I’m self created, I’m God of my own life,” why does that affect the way that I feel about you or you about me? Why does that make you less valuable or me less valuable?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: It doesn’t. But it’s based on a philosophy. It’s based on a worldview. And that worldview says that we all are cosmic accidents. Which means we define ourselves, we define our value, we define our morality, we define everything about us.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Which means I will also define how I’m going to treat you.

TUCKER CARLSON: Exactly.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And if you rub me the wrong way, and if you cut me off at the knees, I’m coming after you to teach you never to do that to me again. And revenge becomes the modus operandi.

I have never, ever heard of a porpoise forgiving a shark for eating his porpoise friend. But we’re not porpoises. We’re human beings created in the image of God, which means we have this ability to reflect the character of God, which is gracious and forgiving and also just and holy. But he was also forgiving.

And he created us with this incredible ability to forgive and to be gracious and not just to cut each other off at the knees.

The Value of Human Life

TUCKER CARLSON: So if you don’t believe that other people have souls, there’s really nothing you can’t do to them.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why does it even matter?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Exactly. What’s the difference between me stepping on a cockroach and me stepping on you? You’re both sentient beings. You both are alive. So if I can step on a cockroach, why can’t I step on you?

Oh, now you’re going to give me this mythology that, oh, but we’re human beings and we have more value than a cockroach does. Oh, really? I don’t think the cockroach feels that way.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right. To which you say, what?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Down deep, you know better than that. Down deep, you and I, I don’t care what your worldview is, you know that there is something to human value down deep within your heart, within the depth of your being. You know that when you hold a little baby in your hands, you’re not holding a cockroach.

TUCKER CARLSON: No.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And this is not based on human arrogance. “Oh, I’m just superior to a cockroach?” No. This has to do with some innate intrinsic value of a human life. But if there is no God, this deep, profound experience that you’re having as you hold a little baby in your hands is just raw emotionalism. It’s meaningless.

Inherent vs. Utilitarian Value

TUCKER CARLSON: And the value, as you just said, is inherent. It’s not just utilitarian. That’s not the thing. That the baby may grow up and become a famous scientist who creates a vaccine to prevent disease.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: The value is inherent in the baby because the baby exists. The baby is valuable because the baby was created by God.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Bingo. You take God out of the picture and you’re up a creek without a paddle when it comes to explaining to me why is that baby valuable. “Oh, that baby’s valuable because I have a lot of strong feelings.”

Yeah, fine. So that’s your genetic drive, right, as mom and dad, to care for your child. Well, guess what? I know a lot of deadbeat dads who could give a rip about their kids.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

The Value of Human Life Without God

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: So don’t give me this bit that dads have to love their kids. And yet the majority of dads understand that child is valuable, okay? So now the question is why? Why is that child valuable?

And I would argue if there is no God, that child is a hunk of primordial slime evolved to a higher order. So don’t give me this gibberish that this child is valuable. Instead, be intellectually consistent and acknowledge this child is a cosmic accident. The same way I’m a cosmic accident.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s so interesting. So you really can’t say that any child or any person is valuable except for the products he produces or the services he provides.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Bingo.

TUCKER CARLSON: Unless you acknowledge that he was created by God.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Correct.

TUCKER CARLSON: Because where would the value come from?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Exactly. And you know where the value comes from in our culture? The size of your stock portfolio. The size of your bank account. The style of your car. The house you live in. The size, the grandeur of it. And that is so superficial.

TUCKER CARLSON: Can I also say, it suggested if you don’t have that portfolio or that car, that you have less value.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: You are a loser.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: You’re a loser.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you can also be completely mistreated or killed.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Why not?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, that’s happening in the United States, by the way, to poor people.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: And we… I guess when you frame it the way you did, we shouldn’t be surprised by that. You know, 100,000 people can die every year of fentanyl, and we’re like, “Yeah, but they’re losers. Like, whatever. Who cares?”

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: That is what we’re saying.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Tragic.

TUCKER CARLSON: Because they don’t have value apart from what they produce or own.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: Damn. I think you just… I think you just explained what’s happening. I’m sorry I interrupted you, but you’re blowing my brain a little bit.

The Dehumanization of Rating People

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I was speaking at a private women’s college in Massachusetts, and a woman came up to me with tears streaming down her cheeks. She said, “You know, Cliff, you don’t know what it’s like to walk into a frat party. And as you walk into the door, you walk past a group of guys lined up, and they’re whispering to each other. 2, 4. Yep. 8, 10.”

She said, “You have no idea how dehumanizing that is, Cliff.” And I had to look her in the face and say, “You’re right, ma’am. I don’t. I don’t know experientially how dehumanizing that is, but I can begin to imagine that is such a trashy view of human life. It’s scary.”

But if there is no God, we’re all hunks of primordial slime. We’re all hunks of meat on a hoof. And if we’re proportioned correctly, we’re in 6, 8, 10. And if we’re not, we’re 4 or 2. Tragic.

TUCKER CARLSON: What did she say?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: She began to seriously consider Christ in a way that was very exciting. I don’t know what ultimately she decided, but she said to me, “Cliff, basically, this is really beginning to make more sense than it ever has before.”

The Decline of Care for the Poor

TUCKER CARLSON: I’ve noticed a lot that the emphasis in the United States… And I’ve always been a right winger, and I always made fun of people who prayed about the poor and all that stuff. I was wrong. I just want to say, but I have noticed that the concern for the poor in the United States has basically just evaporated.

And that a hundred years ago, the country was humming with benevolent associations with what we would call NGOs, basically rich ladies, just like now, trying to elevate the poor, take care of orphan children, teach them English, feed them, and that no longer exists at all. And could that coincide, not coincidentally, with the declining Christianity?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yes, it absolutely, absolutely could. It’s a searing of the human conscience. It’s interesting you raise that issue because this winter and spring, like never before, when people ask me difficult theological questions, I try and give a short answer, especially when they start getting into, you know, “What about the Catholics? What about the Greek Orthodox? What about the Protestants? You know, don’t they really all have problems?”

My point is rather simple. My point is I don’t really give a rip whether you’re Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Protestant. I care about what you think about Jesus Christ. Have you put your faith in him? And I got a boatload of Catholic friends who have put their faith in Christ, a boatload of Greek Orthodox friends who put their faith in Christ, and a boatload of Protestant friends who put their faith in Christ.

But it’s simply not the issue. Are you Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Protestant? The issue is, have you put your faith in Christ then? The issue is, are you seeking to introduce people to Christ and are you seeking to solve one of the biggest killers in the world today, which is starvation?

If you had a kid who was starving, and I say to you, “I’m a follower of Christ,” and I look at your starving kid and say, “Good luck,” and I walk away, you have good reason to question the legitimacy of my faith. I think you do. Yes. If I have the solution for your starving kid, it’s called money in my back pocket, in my bank account, and I do nothing to help you with your starving kid. Oh, my goodness. What on earth is going on?

So to get all wrapped up in some of these theological debates, I just don’t want to spend too much time on because we got a boatload of work to do, introducing people to Christ, helping them go from hell to heaven, helping them grow as people of integrity, people of honesty, people of strong values, and then people who share their financial resources with those who are less fortunate and solve the world’s starvation problem.

Focusing on Major vs. Minor Theological Issues

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re effectively a theologian. So it’s interesting to hear you say, “I don’t want to get caught up in the theology.”

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Well, theology is very important when it comes to the basics. I like what Mark Twain said. Mark Twain said, “It’s not the parts of Bible I don’t understand that disturb me. It’s the parts of the Bible that I do understand that disturb me.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Boy, is that true?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Right on, Mark. Well, it’s amazing how many Christians can get caught up in the minutiae, you know. Is transubstantiation correct? So should I be a Catholic or not? Should I pray to Mary or not?

You know, if someone comes up to me and says, “Cliff, I know you’re going through a rough time and I’m praying to my aunt who was a saint for you,” I’m not going to try and have this hour long discussion with them. Why? I don’t think praying to your dead aunt is a good use of your time. I’m going to say thank you for praying to your aunt. I would encourage people to pray directly to God, directly to Jesus Christ, but how much time am I going to spend with another person debating upon whether you should pray to your aunt or not? I just, let’s focus on the majors, not on the minors.

TUCKER CARLSON: Interesting. Yet a lot of energy is expended on the small stuff.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Why is that? I don’t know. I’ve got some fears, some concerns about why that is. There’s a part of me that understands it too well, which is I want to be right and if I have an opinion, I want you to agree with me. And if you don’t agree with me, I want to try and convince you to that. And so there can be egotism in there and arrogance.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And I’ve got to be very, very careful of that. I mean I have the greatest respect for President Lincoln. During the Civil War, a minister came up to him and said, “Mr. Lincoln, let’s pray that God is on our side in this terrible conflict.” And Lincoln shot back, “Oh no, no, no, no, let’s pray instead that we are on God’s side. For God’s side is always right.” And it’s far too easy for me to baptize my views with, “Oh, this is God’s view.” Got to be very suspicious of that.

Billy Graham and the Nixon Years

TUCKER CARLSON: Have you ever in your life discovered that what you thought was God’s view was really your view?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Oh, absolutely. I’ve watched that in other people. You know, one of the most gut wrenching experiences for me during the 70s when I was at Davidson was I lived in the home of Billy Graham’s sister Jean and her husband, Leighton Ford. And I watched the Graham’s family struggle through the Watergate crisis.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, you lived in Billy Graham’s daughter’s…

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: House, sister’s home on the weekends. Just on the weekends. Leighton Ford became like a father in the Lord to me. And his wife Jeannie, who was Billy Graham’s sister, was like… became like a mother in the Lord to me. And so I had a front row seat for watching Dr. Graham realize “I think I went too far with Richard Nixon.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Wow. So you were there in 73, 74.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Correct.

TUCKER CARLSON: What was that like?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Well, it was a rather intense educational experience, to put it mildly. In terms of what are you going to spend your life doing? I had the utmost respect for Billy Graham. That guy was incredible. I mean, the temptations that that guy had to deal with, I will never have to deal with the opportunities to really mess up. He had them all over the place. And his integrity was incredible. And I had the utmost respect for him.

But to watch him agonize through this issue of “How close did I get to Richard Nixon, how much did I endorse him, and was that the wisest use of my time?” I respect Nixon and Graham for the way they maintained their friendship till Nixon’s death. I also respect Nixon the way he told some of his handlers to keep Graham away from me. “I don’t want to sully him any more than I have,” so I respect that.

But I also respect Graham for realizing “God called me to preach the gospel. I got to be real careful how much I hop into bed with politicians.” Amen.

TUCKER CARLSON: But I mean, I guess the counter argument would… I want me to say I agree with you completely. But I also see the compelling argument on the other side.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Is that I have influence.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: I think I’m influencing people on behalf of what is true and good. And I have this chance to influence the president of the United States. Like, why wouldn’t I take that?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: What do you think of that argument?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I think that argument’s absolutely correct. But then the question becomes, how strongly do you endorse the individual?

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

The Nature of Sin and Forgiveness

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Because the individual is a sinner. The same way I am, the same way we all are. And the individual’s going to make mistakes, going to sin. How closely do I want to wed that individual with Christ when it comes to communicating Christ to people? And that’s a real challenge that I face.

One of my best lines is, I am a dirty, rotten sinner. And what I’m seeking to smash is the stereotype that a Christian is someone who claims to be morally superior to everybody else. That’s a lie. I’m a follower of Christ because I need God’s forgiveness. Because I’ve messed up. And if I ever forget that, and if I think that my faith in Christ has produced a morally superior person named Cliffe Knechtle, I have parted company with reality.

“Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now I’m found. Was blind but now I see.” Yeah, that’s where it’s at.

The Truth and Reconciliation Story

A story, Tucker, that I use a lot is Truth and Reconciliation Commission. After apartheid was being taken apart in South Africa, Officer Vanderwood was at one end of the court and a black South African woman was at the end of the court. And the Truth and Reconciliation Commission looked into the face of the black South African and said, “Man, this officer went to your township, arrested your husband, brought him outside the township, partied and roasted him over a fire till he was burned to death. One year later, they did the same thing to your son, came to your home, arrested your son, took him out to a party outside the town and burned him to death. Now, what do you want us to do with this white police officer?”

And this black South African woman said, “I got three requests. First request is, I want this white police officer to take me to the place where he burned my husband and my son to death so that I can gather up their ashes and give them a proper burial. Second request is, I want this white police officer to come to my township once a month and allow me to mother him. Because I got a lot of mothering left in me. And he’s taking my family away from me. And the third thing is, I want you to allow me to walk across this courtroom now and give him a hug to try and convince him that my forgiveness of him is genuine and real.”

And the Truth and Reconciliation Commission said yes. Go ahead. This black South African woman stands up. And as she’s walking across the courtroom to this man who was responsible for the murder of her husband and son, a person starts singing. “Amazing Grace how sweet this sound that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now I’m found. Was blind but now I see.” That’s the gospel of Jesus Christ.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s pretty far from what anyone naturally wants or believes. So how do you make the case that acting against your own impulses, against your own instincts is good? Like, why? That’s pretty radical. It’s a little more radical, I think, than we appreciate normally.

The Discipline of Excellence

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Absolutely correct. It’s totally radical. And so is me getting on a diet when the doctor says to me, “You’re getting close to being diabetic, Cliffe.” Yeah, I got to cut ice cream out. I don’t want to do that. But if I want to play with my grandchildren 10 years from now, I better do that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: So I’m free. I’m free to eat ice cream every night, a whole bowl full of it or a pint of it, whatever. Or I’m free to diet. I’m free to do that in order to play with my grandchildren 10 years from now.

Yeah, if I want to get a good education, I’ve got to discipline myself. And if I want to play basketball at Davidson College, I’m really going to have to discipline myself because I don’t have the innate talent to do that. So, yeah, if I want to achieve excellence in life, I’m going to have to discipline myself and put myself through some things that I don’t naturally want to do.

And that’s what we call living a wise life of excellence, of using the gifts that God has given me to make a difference in this world for good, of using this incredible body that God has blessed me with to serve God by serving people more effectively, to develop this amazing mind, the most powerful muscle in our body that God has given me by developing that mind so I can think more clearly and help more people. Yeah, I don’t necessarily want to do that, but it’s what’s best. It’s what’s wisest. So therefore I want to do it.

Student Pushback and Loving Racists

TUCKER CARLSON: What kind of pushback do you get from students when you say things like that?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Two lesbians at Texas State University, a couple of years ago, a few years ago, stepped out of the crowd and said, “Do you love racists?” And I said, “Absolutely, I love racists. I hate racism, but I love racists. They’re human beings created in the image of God.”

And these two lesbians erupted, “You’re an idiot. There’s no way that you should be loving a racist.” And I said, “Ladies, you’re really getting mixed up here. There are some very sinful parts of me. I do not affirm those parts. I hate those parts. But I affirm my value as a human being created in the image of God. I do not affirm racism, but I affirm the fact that those racists are human beings created the image of God.”

And I’ve got some former murderers coming to the church where I pastor. I abhor their murdering a human being, but I still respect them as human beings created in the image of God. And when I worked in a Lawrence County House of Correction in Lawrence, Massachusetts, while I was in seminary, the first visit I would make every Monday night was into the cell of a guy in protective custody who was there for kidnapping little boys, sexually abusing them and murdering them and burying them.

And after spending an hour with him, talking with him, reading the Bible, praying with him, I would go to the gymnasium to play basketball. And the other inmates would come up to me and say, “Hey, man, don’t you know what a piece of dirt he is? How dare you spend any time in his cell talking with him?”

And I said, “Sirs, I abhor what he did to those boys. But I can promise you, in spite of how he has messed up and defaced the image of God in him, he is still a human being, created the image of God. And I will seek to reach out to him, to offer God’s grace and forgiveness to one confused, messed up man.”

TUCKER CARLSON: How’d they respond?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: They got quizzical looks on their faces. Some of them laughed. And I understand that, because that is foreign and it is absurd. And as you pointed out, it’s really radical the way Jesus taught that. But that’s part of why we have so many lonely people in our society today, because we live in a canceled culture, which means you rub me the wrong way and I cancel you. Well, guess what? Everybody’s going to rub me the wrong way at some point.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And if I’m just going around canceling people, I’m going to be a very lonely, isolated person. If I don’t learn to forgive, I will be alone. Intimacy is based on the ability to forgive and to accept people who are different and who’ve hurt you.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes, that is such a wise point. You know, if you think you’re the only virtuous person in the world.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: No, first, you’re an idiot.

TUCKER CARLSON: But second, you will have no one at dinner.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah, that’s exactly right.

The Limits of Humanity

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. No, I think that’s really wise. But a child molester, really, shouldn’t there be limits to humanity? Like at some point do you lose your humanity? I guess what you’re saying is.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: No, you deface it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And obviously some of us have defaced it in very, very unusual, grotesque ways. But we all have defaced it to some extent. I have. No, I’ve never committed the sins that that man committed that I would visit every Monday night. But I’ve lusted, I’ve been greedy, I’ve hated, I’ve had subtle racist attitudes. I’ve been sexist, chauvinistic in my own unique way, sophisticated way.

So I’m not this wonderful person that I wish that everyone believed that I am. No souls. And Solzhenitsyn was correct. The line separating good from evil runs through every human heart, including this guy’s heart.

TUCKER CARLSON: What did the lesbians at Texas State say when you told them that you loved racists?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: They were outraged. They said, “That’s impossible.” And I said, “Ladies, from your perspective, I understand why. If there is no God, forgiveness is stupid. You don’t forgive people. You teach them not to do that to you again. But if there is a God who’s forgiven you, then you’d be very wise to be godlike in the way you forgive others.”

Old Testament vs. New Testament

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s not the message of the Old Testament, which I read last year and was pretty shocked by, as I think many people who read it are shocked by the violence in it and shocked by the revenge in it, the genocide in it. What do you make of that?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I understand why you say what you just said, but to be honest with you, Tucker, I disagree. I think what you see in the Old Testament is the judgment of God. It’s not genocide. Instead, God chose to use the Jews to judge the Amalekites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the stalactites, all the other tights. But remember, a few hundred years later, he used first the Assyrians and then the Babylonians to judge the Jews.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: To commit genocide? No, no, no, no. To judge them for sacrificing their babies on altars, which is the same thing the Hittites and the Canaanites and the Philistines were doing. And God says, “You pervert the worship of me in that way to the point of sacrificing your child on an altar to me. You will be judged for it.” And he judged first those Hittites and Amorites and Agites, and then he judged the Jews for that kind of evil.

I think the real question, Tucker, is do we give God the right to judge? Now, here’s what’s fascinating about this issue for me. When I step onto a State university campus, I know that the majority of professors are going to basically say, “Cliffe, if you abuse a young African American kid, and the police come up to you and they say, ‘What are you doing, Cliffe?’ And I said, ‘Well, this kid deserved it. I just beat him to a pulp.’ If the police officer looks at me and says, ‘Let’s go to Starbucks together,’ you all would be outraged. What incredible racism. What amazing injustice.”

Good. Don’t make the same mistake with God. If you define God as being love lovey dovey and expect him not to judge me for whooping up on the African American kid. If you expect God not to judge me for my evil, then let’s be real honest. That kid doesn’t matter to God. The same way if the police say to me, “Let’s go to Starbucks” after I whoop up on an African American kid, they’re saying something very clearly, “Cliffe, that little African American kid does not matter.”

If God doesn’t judge, he does not love. If God doesn’t judge, it means people do not matter to God. And the opposite is true. People matter to God. And therefore, when we mess with each other’s heads and bodies, he judges us.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t, however, see the message of forgiveness between people in the Old Testament in the way that I see it in the New Testament. It does seem like there was a change. I mean, no one in the Old Testament that I read was saying, turn the other cheek, okay? That you can’t be forgiven until you forgive, which are like central messages, obviously, of Jesus. So, I mean, that seems like a change to me.

The Old Testament and God’s Grace

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I would agree with you that indeed, it’s not articulated quite as clearly as it is in the New Testament. But, gosh, you have got to read the book of Hosea. Hosea is married to a woman named Gomer.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, yes.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: They have a little baby, and Hosea is holding that little baby in his hands, and all of a sudden he realizes, I ain’t the daddy. Yeah, number two child, same thing. Number three child, same thing. Hosea is holding that little kid in his hands, and all of a sudden he realizes, I ain’t the daddy.

It gets to the point where Hosea has to go down to the slave market to barter against other men to buy back his wife. And God is banging on Hosea’s door saying, “Hosea, do you know the pain that you experience over your wife’s sexual unfaithfulness? Well, that is the same pain that I experience over human beings who’ve been unfaithful to me, who I created to love me and live in relationship with me, and they turn their backs on me. I am a suffering God. I hurt over that. But I am a gracious God who offers forgiveness.”

God’s patience with a stubborn Israelite people is incredible. They deserved his wrath long before they got it at the hands of the Assyrians and Babylonians.

TUCKER CARLSON: So you think that they were required to forgive in the same way that Jesus required his disciples and followers to?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Forgive, but it was not articulated as clearly. You’re absolutely correct. It was not articulated as clearly. But the seeds of it are all there. I mean, God, when he confronts Adam and Eve in Genesis chapter three after their rebellion. God bless you.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, thank you. You are just the man to send a blessing of God to a sneezing podcast host. Thank you.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: So God is very gracious to Adam and Eve. God is very gracious to Cain after he kills his brother Abel. He doesn’t wipe them out. He puts a mark on him and says, “No, Cain. Now, you keep going through this thing called life.” God is incredibly gracious to Abraham, who says to Pharaoh, “This woman Sarah, she ain’t my wife. She’s my sister. So of course you can take her to be part of your harem.”

TUCKER CARLSON: He said that twice. Two different cases. I was shocked by that and not impressed. I just have got to be honest. Like, everyone loves Abraham, but what?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: What?

TUCKER CARLSON: I know.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: It’s amazing.

TUCKER CARLSON: I know they never taught that in my church. God is clearly gracious and forgiving. He created people, and he wants them to thrive. I got that message all throughout the Old Testament. What I didn’t get was the command that people should be gracious to each other. Didn’t get that. Whereas that is kind of at the heart of the New Testament.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t see that in the Old. But I’m no scholar. I just read it once.

Cultural Influences on Biblical Times

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: No, but you’re right. There is a lot more barbarism in the Old Testament, and I think a lot of that has to do with culture. I mean, let’s be honest, Tucker. I don’t think that you and I are talking to each other the way we are by accident. I think there are a lot of reasons, and I think one of the reasons is that you grew up where you did, and I grew up where I did.

And you and I were privileged to have a lot of wonderful people pour some very good teaching into our lives. We grew up where respecting each other was valued. And I think you and I are the beneficiaries of that, for sure.

TUCKER CARLSON: I know I am.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I certainly am myself. But when you go into a different culture where there are not those kind of practices and good habits, I think that there’s a lot of problems that start rising rather quickly. That is why I’m a lot more patient with people who grew up where dad was just a monger, just roasted his kids.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yep.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Was so cruel. I’m a lot more patient in understanding those people than those people who grew up in homes. They had a mom and a dad who really loved him and cared for him.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. So you think the culture changed? The culture made about in the Bible?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yes. Correct. Big culture changes big.

Generational Differences in Student Questions

TUCKER CARLSON: So the questions that you get from students in 2025. How are they different from the ones you got from students in 1980?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: There’s an amazing similarity. The biggest difference is the emotional change. My dad grew up in Switzerland. When my dad was 18, he had a gun sitting up in the Alps as he watched Hitler’s Panzer divisions approach Switzerland. My grandpa was on the front lines with his gun. They didn’t know whether those Panzer divisions were going to crash into Switzerland or not.

The gossip is that Mussolini called Hitler and said, “My money’s in Switzerland. Let’s not go into there.” For whatever reason, those Panzer divisions stopped and did not go into Switzerland, but that’s what my dad had to deal with.

TUCKER CARLSON: Can I also say that the Swiss shot down American airplanes, a bunch of them. They shut down. Well, absolutely. They did. They killed a lot of allied airmen.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Wow.

TUCKER CARLSON: You couldn’t fly over Switzerland. And the Swiss were, like, pretty determined to enforce that rule.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Wow.

TUCKER CARLSON: Being like ornery mountain people, which they definitely are.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, yeah. No, they don’t want anyone in Switzerland, period.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Right.

TUCKER CARLSON: Sorry. It’s my favorite fact, and I don’t want it to be lost.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I love it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, I do too. I mean, I’m not for killing American airmen, of course, but I am for sort of independence.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: That’s excellent. Sorry. Okay. So that’s what my dad went through as an 18 year old. I was speaking on campuses when President Trump won the first time.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And I watched 18 year, 19 year olds and 20 year olds go for grief counseling because Donald Trump won. That’s amazing. You talk about emotionally fragile.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: The difference between a guy sitting up in the Alps watching Hitler’s Panzer divisions come.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And having to have the emotional courage and the emotional strength to handle that versus “I got to go to a crying room because Donald Trump just won the election.” I mean, that’s pathetic. That is tragic.

The Roots of Emotional Fragility

TUCKER CARLSON: So you notice that in the questions that you get, people feel more on edge.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yes. There’s an emotional sensitivity that I think at times is sad.

TUCKER CARLSON: Where do you think that comes from?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Well, I think it comes from a lot of things. I think it comes from the breakdown of the home. If you don’t understand love and experience love at an early age, and if you don’t begin to understand that at the heart of the cosmos there’s a God who really loves you. If you don’t really begin to understand that, “Jesus loves me. This I know, for the Bible tells me so.”

And if you think your value really depends on you winning a ball game, you winning a deal, you having a bigger bank account than your competitor, I mean, good gracious, how insecure. And so there’s tremendous insecurity that comes from thinking that my value depends upon whether my body’s a 2, 4, 6, 8, or 10. I mean, you think about that. You think about my value depends upon whether I can put a better selfie up, whether I can post a better selfie to appear to be more together than you are.

I mean, you talk about emotional fragility, you talk about identity crisis. I mean, it’s scary. So the breakdown of the family, the whole emphasis of materialism, which is yeah, it’s all about how you look and how much you own.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: You build your life on that and come on, things are going to crumble fairly quickly unless you’re very successful. And then you get to be where Tom Brady is and you ask, “Okay, six super bowl rings. Now what do I do?”

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: “What’s it all about, Alfie?”

TUCKER CARLSON: Exactly. Yeah. Winning is often the worst thing.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: For a man.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah, I’ve noticed. Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Because it shows in stark relief the limits of this world, doesn’t it? Yeah, well, sure. I mean, you got everything you wanted and you’re still not fulfilled. So, like, what else is there?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, I’ve seen that a lot. I’ve experienced it to some extent.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Same here. Yeah.

Adapting to Modern Sensitivities

TUCKER CARLSON: So when you say they’re more fragile, when they ask you questions like how. What do you mean? Like, how do you know they’re more fragile? How do they behave?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I have to be more careful the way I answer their questions. In the 80s and 90s, I used to be able to come back more strongly. Now I have to be careful that I’m not going to blow people out of the water emotionally.

TUCKER CARLSON: Really.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Because then I lose their ear.

TUCKER CARLSON: So, like, in the 80s, you would just be like at Wesley. And you’d be like, “You’re going to hell.” But you can’t say that now.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Well, I wouldn’t say that. Even in the 80s, even at Wesleyan. Well, I never was at Wesleyan, but I was at Wellesley. Oh, man. I went to Smith, spoke at Smith. Oh, my goodness.

TUCKER CARLSON: What was that like?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Oh, that was painful. That was embarrassing. Can you imagine I, a white male standing up at Smith College and telling women that they needed to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? That did not go well.

TUCKER CARLSON: You didn’t win a lot of souls that day.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: No, we did not. See, many people say, “Oh, that’s interesting. I’d love to talk more with you.” Wellesley was a little different, but, boy, Smith was intense.

TUCKER CARLSON: A lot of happy people at Smith. A lot of joy there. Sorry.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Excuse me. I’m afraid you nailed that one.

Judging Worldviews by Their Fruits

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, you know, I think it’s fair to judge a worldview, a religion, a commitment of any kind, by its fruit. Right? I mean, well put, and I’m stealing the line, but I think it’s applicable just to the world.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right. If it’s so great, show me how great it is, by the way, that you yourself live.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: And if people are. I haven’t been to Smith in a long time. Last time I was there, I picked up a hitchhiker outside its gates, but it was miserable in the 80s when I was last there. I’m sure it’s miserable now. And so that’s like kind of a bad advertisement for whatever belief system they’re buying into, isn’t it?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I certainly would agree with that. Yeah, it’s exactly right.

Why Christianity Faces Opposition

TUCKER CARLSON: So then this leads to my sort of meta question, which is, why does everyone hate Christianity so much when there are certainly a lot of lousy Christians and hypocrites, of course, using the church for their own ends, and they’re televangelists and, you know, whatever. I could go on and on and on. Kin touchers. But generally, rank and file Christians are, everyone knows this way happier than everybody else. So why is everyone mad at them?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Well, I have a good reason to be mad at God. God impinges on my freedom to do whatever I want.

TUCKER CARLSON: Ah, Okay.

The Nature of Freedom and Moral Codes

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I don’t want you telling me, Tucker, what I should do, and I don’t want God telling me what I should do. I don’t want anybody telling me what to do because I bought into a false definition of freedom, which is freedom means doing whatever you want to do. It’s not true.

TUCKER CARLSON: But no one. No one believes it. There’s not one person on the planet who believes you should do whatever you want to do. Everybody has a strict belief system. The ladies who confronted you about loving racists, like, their religion tells them that racists are not human, whatever a racist is, by the way. And you’re required to hate them. So they’ve got their own rules, too.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Well put.

TUCKER CARLSON: Everybody has their own rules. Christianity is no different from secular liberalism. It’s no different from Buddhism or communism in the sense that it has a code, a moral code, and people who step outside it are apostates. So that’s just. That’s the nature of moral codes.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: I think the difference is the Christians seem pretty happy, pretty joyful, pretty light. Certainly lighter than the ladies of Smith. So, like, why are people mad at them for that? I don’t get it.

God’s Standards and the Cross

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah, well, God is offensive, that. In that God tells me what is right sexually, what is right financially, what is right when it comes to use of power. And I would just assume not believe in a being who can see through the keyhole into my life. I’d like to put my finger over the keyhole and say, there is no God who really sees me, who’s going to hold me responsible. Come on. The day of judgment is intimidating. The idea that I’m.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, that may be the difference. Right.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And have to give an answer for my life. I mean, gosh. But that’s where the cross of Christ comes in so powerfully. He bled and died on a cross to forgive me, to wash away my sin, to give me eternal life. And my confidence is in him, not in myself, in my moral rectitude.

The Challenge of Judgment and Supernatural Opposition

TUCKER CARLSON: So is it the challenge of judgment? Is that what makes people mad?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: It’s part of it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Think there’s a supernatural element here?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Absolutely.

TUCKER CARLSON: I do notice that. Like the “free to be you and me” people. I’ve always kind of been a “free to be you and me” person. By the way, for the record, don’t actually want to convert anyone at gunpoint to anything.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Right.

TUCKER CARLSON: But they draw the line at Christianity. Like, they, you know, you can free to be whatever you want, but the Jesus people aren’t allowed.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Right.

TUCKER CARLSON: I have noticed that.

Personal Commitment and Leadership

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: But what I’ve noticed about you, Tucker, is you enjoy shooting guns.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: You don’t want anybody telling you I can’t shoot guns.

TUCKER CARLSON: I definitely don’t want anyone telling me I can’t shoot guns. Right.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: That is. That is definitely true.

TUCKER CARLSON: You got me.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: But one of the things I respect, that I’ve heard you say several times, is, and I am committed to my wife.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And I don’t have respect for a lot of politicians who have a real hard time understanding what commitment to their wife means.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Well, I’m afraid those politicians would argue, yeah, I’m sexually free. And why are you so limited to one woman, Tucker? And I think Jesus Christ was spot on. And I think you’re very wise to make the decisions you have.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. And to put a finer point on it, it’s not just that I don’t respect them for cheating, though.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: I think that’s wrong, but I don’t respect them for not paying any attention. I think if you’re. I look at someone who wants to make decisions for hundreds of millions of people whose wife is desperately unhappy, and I’m like, if you can’t even make her happy, how are you presuming to make decisions for me?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Well put.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Well, I mean that.

TUCKER CARLSON: And not just the wife, the children. If your kids don’t respect you, if your wife doesn’t respect you, why should I respect you?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: And I absolutely mean that. And I know so. I mean, everyone has, like, whatever problems in their marriage. You know, life is long and people screw up and all this stuff, and.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: We all have problems.

TUCKER CARLSON: Try not to be too judgmental about it, but long term, if your wife is not impressed by you, why should I be?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: And I think that’s totally fair. I don’t think that’s judgy. And by the way, it’s okay if your wife doesn’t respect you. Just don’t try to control my country.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Fair.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Like, why should you have a leadership position?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I mean, that.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s. Anyway, that’s my position on it. But I. I just think it’s interesting that Christianity is the one thing that a certain sort of modern mindset won’t tolerate.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: Any other religion is fine. Christianity not allowed.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Fascinating.

TUCKER CARLSON: And that, to me, is evidence that it’s true.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Very good. I like that. Tucker.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know, but I’m just guessing.

The Spiritual Battle and Forces of Evil

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: But you also alluded to the spiritual battle that we are in. Yeah. And anybody has a problem with the devil, with the demonic, I would encourage them to read M. Scott Peck, the great Connecticut psychiatrist book, “People of the Lie.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Amazing book, isn’t it?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And I think he does an incredible job pointing out, if you look at the My Lai massacre and you walk away saying, oh, that was just human beings messing up, you’re out of touch with reality, bud. There is a spiritual force of evil that is at work in The My Lai massacre.

TUCKER CARLSON: Acting on people from outside and influencing their behavior.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: That’s exactly right. And that’s why Jesus cast demons out of people. It’s why Paul writes in Ephesians chapter 6. “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” There’s a spiritual battle that is raging.

And whether it’s Paul, Jesus or M. Scott Peck, they’re all saying the same thing. Open your eyes and realize there’s this personal force of evil called Satan. C.S. Lewis put it beautifully when he pointed out there are two mistakes you can make in your thinking about the devil. One is to make too much of him. The devil’s behind every tree.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Devil always does it. Everything’s the result of the devil’s doing. That’s to make too much of him, but the other’s to make too little of him. Oh, you know who the devil is? The little dude in the red jumpsuit with a little black pitchfork and black ears. Ahahaha. What a ridiculous stereotype. No, the devil is a very suave, very debonair personal force of evil who reeks of evil and destructiveness. That’s scary.

Free Will, Divine Sovereignty, and Personal Responsibility

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s a. I think everything you said is true and I think every honest person can feel it. No matter what your religious faith, we are being acted on from the outside by unseen forces all the time. And it’s our job to resist or obey, depending on the force of course. But. But the message in some ways exculpatory though, I think. I mean it’s not a. It’s not an entirely judgmental message. It’s like actually you are a. You’re being acted on by outside pawn is probably too strong, but you’re still. I mean, Judas betrays Jesus and dies.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: On the other hand, it says really clearly Satan enters him.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: So he’s like a bad guy stealing money from the other 11 and all that for sure. I’m not defending Judas, of course, but he is also in some sense like he exists to fulfill a prophecy. He is kind of, in some ways like not fully a player. He’s. I don’t want to say victim, but do you see what I’m saying?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: That’s an issue that a lot of people raise. How can there be free will and God be sovereign and all powerful? What’s going on here? Who’s pulling the levers? Often a passage out of Exodus that’s brought up is “the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” So did Pharaoh really have a choice in the matter? Six times before we read in Exodus, “the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” We read “Pharaoh hardened his heart.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: No.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s right.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: So I think we got to be careful with this one. Yes, God is all powerful, but I agree with CS Lewis that God chose to partially limit his power by giving us a free will. If I hold back, slap you in the face, and then say, oh, Tucker, God made me do it, you know, I’m a con artist. I’m a hypocrite. I’m a liar. God gave me a hand. He gave me the hand to respect you, to love you. But because he gave me a free will, I can roll this hand into a fist and send it crashing into your handsome face. And if I blame God, I’m a con artist. I’m a liar.

So I would argue that, yes, God is all powerful, but God has chosen to partially limit his power by giving us free will. Why didn’t God have Hitler’s mother have a miscarriage? I don’t know. Seems to me it would have saved a lot of lives. But God has chosen to limit his power by giving us a free will. Now the day of judgment is coming when God will hold me responsible for the way I exercised my free will. So I’m not just free to go out and do whatever and never be held responsible. I am responsible for what I do. And God will guarantee that justice ultimately triumphs, for there will be a day of judgment.

The Capacity for Evil in All People

TUCKER CARLSON: The lesson that I take from the My Lai massacre. You’re talking the Scott book. Did you know him, by the way?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: No.

TUCKER CARLSON: You live in Connecticut, so I just.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Did you.

TUCKER CARLSON: I never met Scott Peck. He’s gone now, but amazing. Amazing, yes. And complicated person, but insight. Really insightful person. The fact that a Connecticut psychiatrist could wind up writing a book like that.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: No kidding.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. He did not play to type. But the lesson that I take from the My Lai massacre is these were, like, Calley and the rest of them pretty ordinary guys. Like, I don’t think they had histories of mass murder before they got to Vietnam, and yet they wound up committing just that and murdering women and children. And it was murder. The lesson that I take is that, like, any of us is capable of that, including me.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Correct.

TUCKER CARLSON: And so the temptation is when you see somebody doing something really awful like, I would never do that. I try to remind myself, I think we all should. That, like, under certain circumstances, I’d probably do anything.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep. Same here.

TUCKER CARLSON: And I think that’s true.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: So what Is that what does that tell us about people?

The Sinful Nature and Readiness to Sin

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Well, this is where a lot of people have trouble with the Bible. The whole issue of a sinful nature.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Dallas Willard used to be head of the philosophy department at USC out in Los Angeles. And the way Dallas Willard described the sinful nature was a “readiness to sin factor.” We were all born with a readiness to sin factor. When I was 6 years old and playing with a little friend of mine in the sandbox, at one point, I picked up the metal truck and dropped it on the little kid’s head. I had never seen that behavior modeled before.

TUCKER CARLSON: Did he deserve it?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: No.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: He offended me.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

The Human Condition and Moral Reality

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And I exaggerated the offense. Took great enough offense at it, and dropped the metal truck on his head. Pretty sad. So, yes, we’re all born in the image of God. We all have a conscience, this innate moral indicator. But we also have this readiness to sin factor. And that is part of the human dilemma.

And guess what? It’s part of why Blaise Pascal believed in Jesus. Blaise Pascal understood the glory and the wretchedness of the human being. And it’s one of the reasons I do. My observation and my experience of reality is everybody does incredible good at times.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And everybody does incredible evil at times.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s correct.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I mean, I referred to my dad earlier, Tucker, when my dad was a Swiss Boy Scout, he was walking through the Alps with his Boy Scout troop one day, and they bumped into a group of Nazi officers. Now, I don’t know if this is true, Tucker, but supposedly one of those Nazis was Adolf Hitler himself. Hitler did not cut my dad off at the knees. Hitler was very gracious to my father as a little Swiss Boy Scout. And then he went ahead and did some of the most horrible atrocities imaginable. All of us have incredible potential for good, and all of us have tremendous potential for evil.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s so obviously true. And anyone old enough to observe the world knows that. Observe himself knows that. Why did you say that? People have problems with that statement. Do you get resistance to that observation?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Because there’s a type of evolutionary optimism that says we’ve been evolving for a long, long time and we’re at the point where we are really good people.

TUCKER CARLSON: Really? Oh, is that right, Cliffe?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And even Rousseau, the Frenchman, thought we were all born perfect and it was society that corrupted us. The fascinating thing is Rousseau had his nanny dump five of his kids on the steps of the hospital, disowning his kids so they could either be adopted or starved to death. We’re all born perfect. Is that right, Jean Jacques Rousseau? I doubt it.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s funny. I mean, things have changed so much that Rousseau was taken seriously. When I was a child, we read Rousseau. I don’t think anyone knows who Rousseau is now anyway, because everyone’s on TikTok. But I think Rousseau is regarded as a villain and an idiot by most people now. Or maybe I’m just in my own world.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: No, I understand.

The Problem with Self-Affirmation Culture

TUCKER CARLSON: Can I pause? I just want to go back and have you flesh it out a little bit more. What kind of reactions do you get from students when you say people are not inherently all good?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Tucker, if you were my son and I were to try and convince you, “Tucker, you really do have innate value, but there is no God who made you. But you do have innate value. You do have real value, Tucker. Do you get it, Tucker? You’re valuable. You’re the greatest. You are the greatest.”

And I want you to go home now, Tucker, and I want you to repeat that to yourself a hundred times. “I am the greatest. I am the greatest. I am the greatest.” And you and I live in a culture that is so filled with that type of thinking that we just have to affirm ourselves. Affirm ourselves, affirm ourselves. To try and convince ourselves that we really do have value. And that’s a short walk into fantasy land.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, it’s also so obviously not true that it creates a lot of inner tension and anxiety in the person who’s hearing it.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Bingo.

TUCKER CARLSON: Because you know you’re not the greatest, actually.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: And you know who you are on some level.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: Maybe not all the details, but you know you’re a mixed bag like everybody.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: And so to have to live in a lie like that makes you tense, doesn’t it?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I think it does.

TUCKER CARLSON: I think it does also.

Confronting the “Judgmental” Accusation

TUCKER CARLSON: So when you say that, people get their dander up.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Absolutely.

TUCKER CARLSON: What do they say?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: “You are so judgmental. Calling me a sinner. Who do you think you are?”

TUCKER CARLSON: What do you say?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Do you support the law that says equal housing opportunity? Do you respect the law that says I’m not allowed to be biased against people of different ethnic heritages when I rent my apartment? Yeah, I think you do, don’t you? And so do I. We all have to make judgments, so please don’t tell me you don’t make judgments. We all make judgments. And we better make judgments between what is good and what is evil.

Now, obviously, the difficult ethical question is, what is good and what is evil? Where should we draw the boundary lines? But please don’t tell me that I’m being judgmental. You’re just as judgmental as I am.

And when Jesus says, “Judge not lest you be judged,” he’s not saying, suspend your critical thinking and blindly accept everything is equally valid. Baloney. Fourteen verses later, in Matthew 7:15, Jesus says, “Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. And they will eat your lunch.” So don’t be gullible. You got to be skeptical. Jesus is teaching. Why? Because good and evil are so intertwined in this messed up world we live in that if you’re not skeptical, you’ll get ripped off. Don’t do that. It’s not smart.

TUCKER CARLSON: So again, you’re just making the point that everybody has a kind of strict religion, but only one is true, which is your position, and the rest are just silly.

Objective Good and Personal Humility

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Well, I’m not trying to say that only one is true. Mine. Because I’ve made a lot of mistakes when it comes to defining right and wrong. What I am saying is because there’s a supernatural God whose character is good. Therefore, throughout eternity, good is real, objectively real. It’s not a subjective taste. It’s real.

And God has hardwired you and me in such a way that we have consciences and rational minds. And by exercising our consciences and rational minds in a responsible way, we can really begin to understand what is good and what is evil.

I mean, Tucker, to be honest with you, the biggest ethical dilemma that I face in life is in light of the fact that we have the solution for starving babies. Why do I keep as much money for myself? Why do I not give more away? So for me to come riding into town on some ethical high horse is a little ridiculous, because I’ve got my own blind spots. I have got my own prejudices.

But what I seek to do, Tucker, is to point people to Jesus Christ, to point people to have a relationship with him, to pray to him for wisdom, to ask His Holy Spirit to sensitize their consciences so they can begin to distinguish between what is good and what is evil, what is morally responsible and what is morally irresponsible.

Questions About Sexuality and Marriage

TUCKER CARLSON: I bet you get a lot of questions about gays and abortion.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: So let’s go in order, what kind of questions do you get about gays and how do you respond?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: My first point is I have to apologize to the gay lesbian population for the way they have been viewed as inferior pieces of dirt by certain Christians. That is false. Gay bashing is not an option for a follower of Christ because a follower of Christ understands all people are created in the image of God. That is the basis for our value and dignity.

Second point, the Bible insists that all of us were created for a purpose. And according to Christ, the purpose of life is to love God with your heart, soul, mind and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. In the same way that God made us for a purpose, he made our sexuality for a purpose. And we read about this in Genesis 2:24. We read, “For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother be united to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”

So it’s not the federal government that created marriage. It’s not culture that created marriage. God did. God created our sexuality. God could have had procreation happen at the end of a Q tip, when a man and a woman mix their earwax, little babies could have been born from that.

TUCKER CARLSON: He didn’t.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: He chose to create us male and female. And that is beautiful. That is a precious, precious gift from Him. Now, he says it’s such an important gift that it’s to be experienced within the context of a lifelong commitment. You separate sex from a lifelong commitment, you’re going down a destructive path. Christ says so.

Third point would be, I have perverted the gift of sex that God gave me through my heterosexual lust. I have perverted that gift. I desperately need God’s grace. I need His Holy Spirit to change me to live a sexually pure life. And that’s not easy for me. That’s hard.

When anybody ever says to me, “Cliffe, I was born this way,” I often look them in the face and say, “Yeah, I was born a heterosexual male. Do you think my heterosexual sex drive motivates me to have sex with just one woman?” And I’m waiting for the guys to laugh.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m guessing not.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah, eventually they do laugh.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Obviously, we heterosexual males do not have a sex drive to have sex with just one woman. Instead, we have to exercise self control, make a commitment to just one woman, and then enjoy sex within the context of a lifelong commitment. That’s marriage.

So I communicate that as clearly as I can to people. They don’t like what they hear. And it’s fascinating, Tucker, over the past 45 years to watch the gay lesbian groups on university campuses around the United States become the most highly organized, the most passionate groups on campus. I think that’s changing, though, recently, and I’m so excited over that. But there has been a clear agenda, a very clear agenda.

TUCKER CARLSON: I also have to agree, of course, but I also think the most hateful, I would say. I’ve never dealt with anybody like that ever. But in 1980, was that a question that you got?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Oh, yes, occasionally.

TUCKER CARLSON: And now how often do you get it?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I think it’s spiked and it’s going down. It’s not quite as prevalent. I don’t know exactly why, but I’m not being asked as often about it. But when I am, it can turn into a firestorm rather quickly.

TUCKER CARLSON: You know, whatever you think of it, I think people are starting to understand that’s not the road to happiness. And if it was the road to happiness, why all the hate? That’s a bad sign. You know, people who are that hateful, whatever they’re doing isn’t working right. And that’s not my fault actually.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Well put. Well put.

Questions About Abortion and Identity Politics

TUCKER CARLSON: What kind of questions do you get about abortion?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: “You got to be kidding me. You’re a white male and you’re telling me that abortion is wrong? Where on earth are you coming from?”

TUCKER CARLSON: White male? What does white have to do with it?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Oh, I think that there are certain stereotypes that exist and for some reason being a white male is not cool. I mean, one of the things that spiked our popularity on TikTok was a blonde haired woman at University of Texas came out to our open air meeting and really went after me.

“You got to be kidding me. You, a white male, are standing out here telling us that we need God, that we need Christ? Are you kidding me? This is the most absurd thing I’ve ever seen.”

And I said, “Now wait a second, wait a second. What does white have to do with it? What does me being a male have to do with it? We’re talking about Jesus Christ and I’m not Jesus. We’re talking about a historical figure who lived, taught, died and rose from the dead. The historical evidence is he’s reliable. I’m not asking you to join me. I’m asking you to seriously consider Christ and to put your faith in him, for he is reliable in a way that I am not. You don’t know me from Adam, so walk away from me. But please read the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John for yourself and ask yourself, does the historical evidence of the way Jesus lived, taught, died and rose from the dead point to his credibility, his trustworthiness or not?”

Well, she didn’t like it, but there’s so many stereotypes out there, so much prejudice. It’s incredible.

The Evolution of Discrimination and the Human Soul

TUCKER CARLSON: I kind of, I mean, by the way, if evolution is real, then why haven’t we evolved past that? We seem to be evolving toward it. And I was taught as a kid in the 70s that prejudice like that, writing people off immediately on the basis of the way they look, was like the one thing you weren’t allowed to do.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: But it has become ubiquitous.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep. Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: So why? Why? I mean, in 1980, no one could have stood up in public and said, “shut up black man, shut up white man, shut up Jew, shut up Christian.” Like absolutely could not say that. But now it’s just, it’s everywhere.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: What? Why.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why is it culture committed to non discrimination becoming ever more discriminatory in ever dumber ways? Not discriminatory in the sense that like I like fish, not steak, but discriminatory in like, you know, anyone. Appearance is the most important factor.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: About somebody.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: I just think it’s very weird.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep. Well, a great man once said, “I’m looking forward to the day when my children’s value is not going to be determined by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s like considered incredibly racist now to say that. And I do think it has something to do with what you so eloquently described at the outset of our conversation, which is once you stop acknowledging the human soul, which can only be granted by God. Like if there’s no God, there’s no soul.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah. You’re.

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re just a hunk of meat. Yeah. Once you discount that, then the most important thing about you becomes the way you look.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: Or who your parents were.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Exactly. Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Wow.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Tragic.

The Abortion Debate and When Life Begins

TUCKER CARLSON: So there are people matter about abortion. Like, so Roe v. Wade gets overturned. It’s a big deal. We don’t really talk about it that much. Anti abortion people lose a bunch of elections. So it seems like the country’s becoming more for abortion. But is it becoming more for abortion? I mean, you’re kind of out there talking to people in a way that most are not. What do you think?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I think there’s a real divide. I think there are more people who are more committed to pro choice and there are more people committed to no pro life. For me, the issue becomes what does God say? The word abortion is never used in the Bible.

TUCKER CARLSON: No.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: But we clearly reading the ten Commandments, “you shall not murder.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Yep.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: So the question becomes, when does human life begin? In every major university hospital in the United States, if a body lying on a bed in an intensive care unit has brain activity and heartbeat, doctors and nurses are legally, ethically responsible to do everything within their power to sustain that life. And generally they do good.

So between six to eight weeks after conception, that little piece of skin in a woman’s womb has both brain activity and heartbeat. So I would hope that majority of us would be able to agree between six to eight weeks, that’s no longer just a piece of skin, that’s a human life. It’s got brain activity and heartbeat. So let’s not abort after eight weeks. Hopefully we all can agree on that.

Then the next question is, well, what’s the difference between a one minute old fertilized egg and an eight week old fertilized egg? An eight day old fertilized egg. A 60 year old fertilized egg. And I would argue the only difference is in degree of maturation, not in kind.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s the same thing, just a different.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: Point along a continuum.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: So is a one year old different from an 80 year old? Well, yeah, in lots of ways, but fundamentally it’s the same person. Still the. Still a person.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: So this is not a conversation that you even hear anymore. You used to hear this conversation, debate about when life begins.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do you hear that conversation?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: A little bit. You’re right. It spiked a few years ago and it’s been going downhill since then.

TUCKER CARLSON: It just seems like that debate, which is a debate about specifics, has been replaced with slogans shouted back and forth. Pro choice, pro life, which are phrases that I personally hate because I don’t really know what they mean. Have you noticed that?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep. Correct.

TUCKER CARLSON: How big a deal is abortion?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: It’s a humongous deal. People are talking about a human life. Euthanasia, tremendous issue. We’re talking about a human life. “Oh, but they’re senile. They have dementia, Cliff. They have Alzheimer’s.” Yeah, but they’re still a human being created in the image of God.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, they’re probably still more aware of the world than my two year old. Can I kill my two year old?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: What are you even talking about?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Right.

TUCKER CARLSON: What?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep. But the sad thing is, Peter Singer, professor emeritus at Princeton, used to stand very strongly for abortion and even killing a newly born child. And yet I respect him because he really had a heart for the poor. And he personally, I happen to know that he personally gave a lot of money away to feed hungry people. So he’s kind of a, seems to me to be a confused gentleman who understands the value of human life and that we’re going to feed starving people. But if I want to destroy a newborn infant, go ahead.

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, it was always amazing to me that you could have a tenured professor at an Ivy League college, which gets billions in federal funding.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Advocate openly for murder. Why not just cut off federal funding?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Bingo.

TUCKER CARLSON: If he advocated for murdering black people, murdering Israeli settlers, they’d be like, “no, we’re not going to have this.”

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: No way.

TUCKER CARLSON: No way.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you can advocate for murdering kids and it’s you, you keep your funding. I don’t understand that at all.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Neither do I. Do you think?

Approaching the Abortion Issue with Grace

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, part of the problem with abortion is so many people participated in it.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: And a lot of good people, by the way.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I would say. Absolutely.

TUCKER CARLSON: Since I know a bunch of good people who participated in an abortion. And we all do.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: Whether we know it or not.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: So how do you speak to those people about it? I mean, it’s hard if you participate that either had one or paid for one or been the father of a child who was like, it’s hard to talk to people about it. At that point, they don’t want to talk about it. How do you talk to people about that?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Well, Tucker, I’ve got to be brutally honest with people. I am a dirty rotten sinner.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And self righteousness Jesus attacks in the gospels like no other sin.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, that’s for sure. That’s the one thing he’s really mad about.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I know, exactly. Exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: The Pharisees, prostitutes are fine, but self righteous people, not fine.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Exactly. Yeah, that’s exactly right. So we have to be very careful that we’re not approaching this issue with a self righteous chip on our shoulder. That’s for sure. We all are broken people. We all are feet of clay. I certainly have blown it.

Secondly, I’ve received the grace of God, the forgiveness of God, and he offers that to every single one of us. And all of us are in desperate need of it. I mean, gosh, one of my favorite stories in the New Testament is that two thieves hung on either side of the cross of Christ. First he turns to come on, says to Jesus, “come on, Jesus, miracle boy from Nazareth, get us off these crosses and then we’ll believe in you.”

Second criminal says, “you idiot, we bleed and die here because we deserve it. But this Jesus, he’s the innocent, holy, pure son of God.” And that second criminal looks into Christ’s face and says, “lord Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Now it’s all right there.

TUCKER CARLSON: Jesus says.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Jesus says, “get off the cross, work in a soup kitchen, give me 12 Hail Marys and I’ll think about it.” No. Yeah, that’s religion. You work your way to God. No, the opposite is what Jesus does. He looks the guy in the face and he says, “I tell you the truth, today, you’ll be with me in paradise.”

TUCKER CARLSON: See you tonight. Exactly. C.S.

Grace vs. Works: The Difference of Christianity

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Lewis was walking through the faculty lounge and they were having a debate. What’s the difference between Christianity and every other world religion? And C.S. Lewis said, “oh, that’s easy, Grace.” Every religion says, “here are the rules. Keep them, and if you do a good enough job, maybe you’ll make it. Maybe you’ll work off your bad karma well enough to attain nirvana. Maybe you’ll be a good enough boy to make heaven.”

And Jesus says, “no, you never will be because you will have a problem with sin. But I bled and died on a cross to give you grace, forgiveness, and eternal life. Trust in me.” That’s why Jesus doesn’t call us to a philosophy. He doesn’t call us to an institution. He calls us to himself. Because it takes a personal God, a suffering God, to pay the penalty for our sin, to forgive us, and to reconcile us to himself.

TUCKER CARLSON: The last person Jesus forgives before he dies is a murderer.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep, that’s exactly right.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s wild.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Isn’t that wild?

TUCKER CARLSON: It is wild.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: So if you explain that the very most basic precepts of your religion to someone before you tell that person, actually abortion is murder, do you get people who can hear you?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yes. Correct. Not everybody, but yes. I notice that people begin to listen a lot more attentively. The same way if you give a good answer to a difficult question, then suddenly, if people are thinking, they say, “ooh, I dismissed Christ because I thought he was a joke. The evidence is he’s not a joke. I’m going to have to begin to think more deeply and seriously.”

Jesus describes biblical faith as heading towards the evidence. This whole idea that faith in Christ is anti scientific or anti reason is total baloney. In John 14:11, Jesus says, “Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father’s in me. Or believe me, because of the miracles that point to me being the truth.” He doesn’t say just believe. He says, “no. Look at the miracles, buddy, and allow the evidence to drive you to faith.”

The Consequences of Unacknowledged Sin

TUCKER CARLSON: Do you think that people, you know, participate in a murder and don’t acknowledge that it’s wrong and don’t ask for forgiveness for participating in it? How do they suffer in this life. Do you think in this life?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Well, the penalty for sin is sin? Sin has a way of unraveling life. We have human consciences. We all do. We all have a conscience. Now, we can sear it, we can rationalize, we can blame others for our sins, but we still have a conscience. And we have to shut that thing down in order to live with ourselves. Or we can turn to Christ for forgiveness. We have to shut it down in.

TUCKER CARLSON: Order to live with ourselves. Interesting. What is it? What is it? Can you more fully explain that?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah. I’m not very intelligent, Tucker, until it comes to justifying whatever I want to do. When it comes to justifying what I want to do, I’m a genius.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. I went to grad school for that. Yeah, actually did. Well, Dean’s list.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Congratulations.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, you know.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Oh, man.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, that’s really interesting. So what I think you’re saying is once you accentuate, develop, hone the pattern of lying to yourself about your own behavior, it becomes.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: It becomes a habit.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Absolutely. A finely tuned habit. Yeah.

The Problem of Suffering and Divine Justice

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I think we’ve all lived that. I certainly have. What about the idea that if you do something really bad, like you do, suffer for it. Like bad things happen in your life.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Okay. Now the challenge to that is Job. When Job suffered, his buddies came to him.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, yeah.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And they were real smart. For one week they sat there and said, zippo. They just sat with him. Beautiful. Compassion, comfort, integrity. Then they opened their mouths.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And he went south real fast.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. They blamed him for his whole family dying.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: “You’re a sinner, Job. That’s why you’re going through this suffering.” And God was going to judge them. And Job had to pray that the Lord would not judge them for that screwed up advice. They gave him counsel.

John, chapter nine. The disciples come to Jesus and say, “Hey, Jesus, this guy born blind? Who sinned? This guy or his mom and dad?” Jesus said, “Neither this happened. That the power of God might be displayed in his life.”

Does sin lead to death? Absolutely. Is there always a one to one correspondence between sin and suffering? No. One of the main points of the book of Job is life is unfair. God is fair. Don’t get the two mixed up.

The challenge when I suffer is not to clench my fist and wave it in God’s face. That’s misplaced anger. The challenge when I suffer is to understand I’m born into an unfair world. Now, maybe I am suffering for some of my sin or from the sins of somebody else. That’s possible.

But it’s also possible that because I’m born into an unfair world, the flak is hitting the fan in my life. Not because of anybody sinning or me sinning, but because of the unfairness of this world. Now, the unfairness of this world is a result of you push it all the way back to Adam and Eve, rebelling against God, telling God to get lost, and creation begins to unravel.

So, yes, we’re born into a world where there are horrible genetic birth defects and life is unraveling. Life is unfair. And the reason I think that’s so important to remember is if I have the false expectation that life is supposed to be fair, I’m going to be really disappointed with God.

TUCKER CARLSON: You know, life is not. Is definitely not fair. There are many. Can I hit you with some hard ones?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Go for it.

The Chosen People and Divine Election

TUCKER CARLSON: So there are all kinds of references all over the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, about people being chosen. Well, the Jews being the chosen people being the most obvious. But continues into, you know, the very end of the Gospels, in the end of John, Jesus, like “you, all were chosen.”

What does that mean exactly? There are lots of people who weren’t chosen. Jesus’s enemies died with, according to Christianity, the sin of opposition to Jesus on them. Is there, like an elect who were just, like, chosen to be followers of Jesus and then the rest who just weren’t chosen and won’t be. That seems to be what they’re saying in there.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Very difficult question. And equally committed followers of Christ disagree. In the last sermon I preached, I used an illustration from South Africa. In a very, very fine South African seminary, it was taught “Africaners are the chosen people,” which means they are superior to blacks, coloreds and Indians and Brits.

TUCKER CARLSON: They hate the Brits.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Incredible. Understandably, I would argue that is a total misunderstanding of the word chosen in the Bible. I would argue that when the Bible talks about God choosing the Jewish people, it doesn’t mean all Jews are going to heaven. It doesn’t mean that Jews are superior to Gentiles.

It simply means that when God chose to reveal himself more clearly than simply through creation, general revelation, he chose the Jewish prophets and he spoke through the Hebrew prophets. And then when he chose to reveal himself most clearly by becoming a human being, he was born a Jew. I worship a Jew, Jesus of Nazareth.

It does not mean that the Jews are God’s pets. No, they’re valuable human beings created in the image of God. But a Jewish thug is a thug the same way a Hamas thug is a thug, the same way a Hezbollah thug is a thug, the same way a Palestinian thug is a thug. We’re all human beings created the image of God with a free will, and we are responsible for what we do. So we got to be real careful that we. How we handle that word chosen.

And no, I do not think that God chooses certain people to go to heaven and he chooses other to go to hell. One of the most painful experiences I had was at Stanford. I was speaking in a dorm lounge and a lot of faculty, for some reason that I don’t know, showed up and I tried to pull those faculty out to express their worldview, their faith, whatever it was. They refused to. They remained totally silent. And it was the students who dialogued with me.

But afterwards one professor said, “All right, Cliff, let’s go to the kitchen there and let’s talk.” And I mean, that guy laced into me. It was incredible. And I mean, he called me some interesting words and it just was really negative. What was he mad about? Well, that’s what I didn’t know until afterwards.

I went to the students who had invited me to Stanford and I said, “Gosh, I had the most intense discussion with your religion professor imaginable.”

TUCKER CARLSON: No one hates God more than a religion professor at Stanford.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: What was so scary was the guy who invited me said, “Cliff, that guy grew up in a home where his dad was a minister and he had a brother. And one day their father looked him in the face and said, he said to the other brother, ‘You’re predestined to go to heaven.’ And he looked in the face of the guy who’s now the religion professor at Stanford, but this was years ago, so I doubt he’s there now and said, ‘And you’re predestined to go to hell.'”

Can you imagine that? What an incredible perversion of the whole idea of predestination, of the whole idea of chosen or elect. And yet here’s a Stanford University religion professor who was treated that way by his own father, who was a minister.

TUCKER CARLSON: It sounds like he was working to make it true, though. Sounds like he was living in hell.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah. Doesn’t it? If he’s yelling at you. Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: For like talking about the gospel, which is like, you know, non violent love based religion. Yeah. If you’re mad about that, like there’s something, you know, you’re the problem. I would say, but not to be mean, but there, there does seem to be. And I, of course, could be misreading it. Probably am. But at least one section, maybe a couple, where Jesus says, you know, like, “No one can come to me except those who are chosen to come to me.” I think that’s what he says.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I think the language is “unless the Father draws him.”

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s exactly right.

Divine Love and Human Response

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: So, Tucker, if I stood here, sat here and said to you, “You know why I believe in Jesus? Because I’m a really great guy and I just made the right decision.” I’m a fool. No, I love Jesus because Jesus first loved me.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: My love for him is not because I’ve got this love welling out of my heart and I’m just such a great guy. No, he first loved me. He chose me. He drew me to himself. I have never converted anybody. I have, simply put, the gospel, the good news of God’s love for you in front of people, and God’s Holy Spirit works in people’s hearts, and they either say yes or no. And I can’t control that. I have no desire to control that. That’s not my job.

I’ve got to respect a person’s right to walk away from Christ or to trust in him, because God created us that way. And when a rich young ruler, after asking Jesus how to get to heaven, finds out, he walks away with a sad look on his face. And Christ doesn’t go run after him and grab his cloak and say, “Oh, wait a second, bud, you got to believe in me.” No, he respects the guy enough to say, “Okay, that’s your decision. I respect your decision. I disagree with it totally.”

So I’m convinced that God allows us to walk away from him. Tragic. And God also draws us to himself by His Holy Spirit. But look at anthropology. Anthropology shows us that every culture has some type of religion. So I’m convinced that the only reason an atheist doesn’t find God is for the same reason a criminal does not find the police. Everybody’s running away.

TUCKER CARLSON: Every side is based on religion.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Pardon?

TUCKER CARLSON: Every society is based on religion.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Including ours. Ours is the trans religion or whatever it is, but it’s still a. It’s an evangelical faith. They find a trans flag outside US embassies around the world. I mean, I. I’m not for it, of course, but I mean, I recognize what it is, which is a religion.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: It’s a religion.

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re flying. You’re flying the flag, but instead of the cross, there’s a rainbow.

Christian Persecution and Revival

TUCKER CARLSON: My last sort of overview question for you is, since you’ve been doing this for so long, do you think there’s more persecution of Christians now, or do you think there’s a revival of Christianity in the United States? Or is there both.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Both.

TUCKER CARLSON: Really? Tell me what you notice.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: The 20th century had more Christian martyrs than all the centuries before that combined.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, I noticed.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep. That’s not talked about too much. Yeah. Really?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Since the year 2000, over 50,000 Nigerian Christians have been slaughtered by terrorists for their faith in Christ. Beheaded right outside the church or inside the church building. That’s tragic. That is so sick, so sad. And yet it’s real.

And yet I’m convinced that the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church. I’m convinced that to spread Christianity, I must not kill others, but be willing to die for my faith to be killed. And that’s exactly what happened in the first, second, third century.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes, big time.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And when Christianity got political power, whoa. Things got really difficult, really perverted, really fast. So we, as followers of Christ, we have to be very, very careful about power. We need to use it. It’s a gift from God. It’s a good gift from God, but we better have that same degree of skepticism that Abraham Lincoln did when he said to that minister, “No, let’s not pray that God is on our side. Let’s pray that we are on God’s side.”

And that’s one of the reasons that I respect a guy like Charlie Kirk. He does not buy into Christian nationalism. “We’re the best nation’s number one.” He understands Christ is number one. And now we better get off our backsides and help make this country more serious about following Christ in our policies, in the way we do business. And I think that’s awesome. I think that’s absolutely fantastic.

Defining Christian Nationalism

TUCKER CARLSON: There’s a huge. You use the phrase Christian nationalism, which is. I hate this term, but a hot button phrase, but never really defined, so people can impute whatever meaning they want.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: And the meanings differ greatly. So if by Christian nationalism, you mean you try to make it a more Christian country, that’s what you just advocated for.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Right.

TUCKER CARLSON: If it means put a religious leader in charge of the country and make a state religion, that’s an entirely different meaning which you oppose.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Beautifully put.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right. So I couldn’t agree with you more. Christian nationalism, I think its critics mean any effort to make it a more Christian country.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Correct.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right. And so I’m opposed to the critics of Christian nationalism. I’m against the state religion.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yep, same here.

TUCKER CARLSON: Good. Okay, good.

TUCKER CARLSON: But that’s one of those phrases that just, like, evokes all kinds of connotations that you may not have meant. So you just wanted to put a finer point on it.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: And remember, Tucker, when I speak on state university campuses or Ivy League campuses, I am not speaking in an echo chamber. The majority of people disagree.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, you’re definitely not.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: The majority of people strongly disagree with you.

TUCKER CARLSON: So when you were at Smith, I meant to ask you this. Did you use the phrase, “Can I get an amen?”

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: No, you didn’t.

TUCKER CARLSON: Would have been funny if you had.

Campus Ministry and Revival

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: I mean, just think, Tucker. This February, March, April, I was at. With Stuart. Stuart and I were at Stanford, UC Davis, UC Berkeley, Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Columbia, Cornell, Clemson. Those are not echo chambers.

TUCKER CARLSON: How long till you get stoned? And not in a fun way.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Right. I don’t know. And there are some people I think are a little too concerned about that. I am not concerned. I don’t. I think university campuses are still very safe places, although I know there’s been some problems.

But, no, I’m. And I know ultimately, Tucker, that my life is in the hands of Christ and I’m safe and secure. And I have a great deal of respect for the Apostle Paul when he writes in Philippians 1:23, “I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far.” And that’s the hope that we have as followers.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, I mean, he, like, wrote most of his letters chained to a wall in a dungeon somewhere.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: That’s exactly right, Tucker. That’s exactly right.

TUCKER CARLSON: I know it’s not a holy term, but what a badass that guy was.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Oh, no kidding.

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, for real?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: For real is right.

Signs of Revival Among Students

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, so the second half of the final question, which is about revival. There is more persecution, you believe? I think objectively, you’re right. Harder to quantify is revival.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yes, harder to quantify.

TUCKER CARLSON: What’s your sense?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: All I know is the past year I have met more excited followers of Christ on campuses than ever before. I am very excited the way young people are taking Jesus more seriously.

I do not think it’s a health wealth gospel. I do not think it’s a think positive gospel. I think it really grapples with good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness, justice and injustice in a biblical way, not in an elitist way in the United States. So I am very, very excited about what’s happening.

TUCKER CARLSON: Should you run into more students who are open minded?

Addressing Pain and Alienation

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yes. I’m getting more really personal questions. You know, whenever things are getting a little tense in the crowds outside, all I have to do is talk about divorce and the pain of divorce. And it gets real quiet.

One of the reasons we all need Jesus Christ is because we all experience alienation. And too many of you in this crowd right now know exactly what I’m talking about. Because your mom and dad were so alienated from each other that they divorced. And you don’t need me to tell you how much pain that brought into your life. And I’m sorry. It’s wrong, it’s not right.

But what I plead with you is realize that there is a good God who wants to be your father in heaven, to really protect you, to really care for you, who has your best interests in mind. Don’t take it from me. Read the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Examine this Christ for yourself.

TUCKER CARLSON: And you think people are open to that?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Some are not. They’ve been betrayed by their own parents.

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, that’s what that is. It’s betrayed. I mean, I’ve lived it, so I know, but that’s. And many people have. At least half the country has. That’s a betrayal of the child.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Bingo. You’re absolutely right again.

TUCKER CARLSON: And you think that makes them more open to your message?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Well, yeah. Because they understand alienation.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: They’ve experienced the pain of alienation. And that’s why when forgiveness is pictured in a very graphic way and the practical nitty gritty boots on the ground description has given her forgiveness, hopefully it’s going to begin to make a little more sense and the importance of it is going to become highlighted because they watched mom and dad, who could not forgive each other and reconcile.

Drug Use and Pain

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes, it’s exactly. Wow, that’s interesting. What about drug use? Drug use is. I mean, I thought it was bad when I was a kid. It seems totally out of control now.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why do you think that is?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Why do I think that is?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Well, I think drugs are very attractive. If I’m in pain, it’s a way to assuage the pain.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Why not pop a pill? Why not get into alcohol? I’m in pain. I’m hurting and I can’t stand this. So I need some relief from the pain. And I’ll use drugs. I’ll use alcohol. I’ll use promiscuous lifestyle, the thrill of orgasm. I’ll do whatever it means to take care of the pain. The meaninglessness, the angst of life.

Yeah. Christ says, “Come and follow me. It’s not going to be easy. You’re going to have to do some hard work. But come and follow me and I will give you abundant life, a life that really flourishes. That’s really good. When you submit to me and trust me.”

And it’s fun to watch more and more people begin to take Christ seriously and say, you know, I don’t think drugs and alcohol are really the way to deal with my pain.

A Basketball Court Conversion

I love to ask students the question, if you could ask God one question, what would it be? Well, I like to still play basketball. I don’t really play basketball, Tucker. I waddle out there on the court, but there was this one guy out there in the Duquesne YMCA who I went up to and I said, “Hey, if you could ask God one question, what would it be?” He said, “Let me think about it.”

TUCKER CARLSON: You asked us on the court.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: On the court, yeah. Four minutes later the guy comes back to me and he says, “Guess what? I don’t ask questions of beings I don’t think exist.” Oh, I thought that was pretty abrupt, but I liked his honesty.

A few weeks ago, he comes up to me and says, “I’m started to pray.” I said, “Really? I thought you thought that God didn’t exist.” He said, “I almost killed myself with alcohol. I began to realize I have to pray in order to live.” I said, “Wow, that’s great.”

I’m walking out of the Y and getting in my car and all of a sudden from the other end of the parking lot, “Hey, remember Cliff, faith without works is dead.” That’s right out of the book of James, the end of the New Testament.

So here’s this kid who told me, “I don’t pray because I don’t talk to a God who doesn’t. And I’m not going to ask you a question about God because I don’t ask questions about beings I don’t think exist.” Now he’s gone to “now I pray.” And now he’s gone to quoting the book of James to me.

The Internal Struggle with God

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not surprised. I’m not. It’s the people who are mad at God who come around to God much more often than the people who just don’t even think about it. Someone comes up and is like, “I don’t think God exists.”

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Well, God.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, you’re God. He’s really mad. Yeah. And that suggests an internal tussle.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: With his pre existing from birth deep knowledge that of course God exists.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Knows that.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: And he’s like fighting it. And anyone who’s fighting is probably in the end going to submit. That’s my instinct on it.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Same here. That’s why when people really go after me out in the open air and people come, you know, humble people come up afterwards and say, “Cliff, are you all right? I mean, that guy was awful mad. He was awful offensive, wasn’t he?” I’m saying, “Wait a second. I respect the guy totally. He put right out on the table what he believes. What he doesn’t believe. I loved it. I love every minute of it.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. It’s always people like that. It’s the person who’s like, “I’ve never thought of that before. You know what I mean? Like, what does that have to do with my job at the bank?” People like that, you have a lot less hope of enlightenment for them.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah, yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Than the guy who’s wrestling with God.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yeah.

Hope for the Future

TUCKER CARLSON: Last final question. Are you hopeful for the future of the country?

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Yes, I am. Because I, as a follower of Christ, understand that God is ultimately sovereign. History is not a string of accidents. History is ultimately God’s story. He began it in the beginning. “God created the heavens and the earth,” and he’s going to bring it to a close when Jesus Christ returns in power and great glory.

Billy Graham was playing golf with President elect Kennedy. And after their golf game, Kennedy was driving them back to their residence. And all of a sudden, Kennedy pulls the car off to the side of the road and looks at Dr. Graham and says, “Do you really think that Christ is going to return a second time?” Graham swallowed hard and said, “Well, the Bible teaches that and all the church creeds teach that. So, yes, I do believe that.”

TUCKER CARLSON: This was pre Vatican II, before they read in the Bible a lot in Catholic churches. No, it’s true. It was.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Good point. Yeah, very good point. And gosh, am I ever excited about the number of Catholics that are starting to read the Bible now.

TUCKER CARLSON: A lot.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: A ton. Yeah, I am ecstatic over that development. Sorry.

TUCKER CARLSON: Sorry to interrupt, but I. Not to defend Kennedy, but he probably never heard that before.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: It’s exactly right. Well, just think if you have a worldview that says there is no God, history is a string of accidents, and history is going to end when we all blow ourselves to bits in a nuclear holocaust or when the sun burns out, we all freeze to death. Entropy.

No, Jesus Christ insisted that history is going to end when he returns in power and great glory. That is why I, as a follower of Christ, have hope for the future. Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus said, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live even though he dies.”

We, as followers of Christ, affirm life more than anybody because we know that there’s eternal life out there. We, as followers of Christ, want to work harder to change our country, to change our world, because you don’t work on roads that lead nowhere. And life is not a road that leads nowhere.

Life is a road that leads to eternal life in heaven, when you trust in Christ. So you begin to get involved in politics, you get involved in your corporation, you get involved in your family, because you know that life is significant and you know that there’s an incredible future out there. Because ultimately Jesus is going to return a second time. Ultimately, Jesus reigns.

TUCKER CARLSON: Cliff, I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

CLIFFE KNECHTLE: Tucker, I can’t thank you enough for the awesome privilege. Thank you for your honesty and your openness, your hospitality, my deep theological questions. Not very deep. Thank you.

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