So everything was going swimmingly with respect to energy, and then all of a sudden you have the straits closed down, you have the bombing, and that has certainly disrupted things in a very negative way.
And look, a higher price of oil is just basically a tax on the world economy. It affects everyone. I agree that so many industries, from our technology industry to our transportation industry to our manufacturing, is all very dramatically affected by a higher price of oil. And the real question is how long will this last? Now, none of us know that answer.
I would say that the best way of gauging how long this will last is to look at the futures market. In other words, you can buy a barrel of oil three months from now and you can pay a price for that. And so the futures markets are telling us that the price of oil will migrate back down to seventy or eighty dollars a barrel. And let’s hope that they’re right. Because if it doesn’t happen, it’s going to be really bad news for the Republicans come midterm elections. Because the one thing that we all know is that Americans hate paying high gas prices at the pump.
PIERS MORGAN: Yeah. But the person that knew that better than anybody was President Trump. You know, I’ve known him a long time.
STEPHEN MOORE: You have.
PIERS MORGAN: Yes, it was a massive gamble. I understand he wants to stop Iran developing a nuclear weapon. I understand the arguments. I just felt like going to war with Iran in a way that’s happened had so many potential negatives to it, that it was an enormous political risk, never mind anything else, and a huge — as it’s turned out — economic risk.
And the truth is about the futures markets, for example, with this. I don’t think anybody knows, Stephen. I don’t think President Trump knows. What we do know is that the IRGC, the Iranian regime, remains pretty well in charge. That seems clear because the people are not rising up at all. We know that the Strait of Hormuz remains pretty well closed. They have control of that. And if they think they can hold America to economic ransom, it is highly likely, given the history of this forty seven year regime, that that’s exactly what they’ll do — that they will affect maximum leverage economically, knowing that that is actually their most effective weapon.
STEPHEN MOORE: So I would simply say to that that Trump has said “short term pain for long term gain.” And the big question, of course, is how long is that short term pain going to last? And so I don’t have an answer to that. I am not a foreign policy expert, I’m an economist. I’m here to tell you if the price remains high, it will have a very negative effect on the economy, especially given the fact that we are now moving into this incredible new age of AI robotics, where the data centers, where our energy demands are going to double over the next ten years. So we’re going to use a lot more energy.
And I’ll just say one other final point. The world is not running out of oil and gas. The world is awash in oil and gas. This is a supply chain problem because the strait is being shut down, and the world has to come together to get those straits open. Where is Russia? Where are the Brits? Where are the Chinese? Where are the Europeans in helping get that done? I think that’s been a big problem for Trump — nobody seems to be helping.
Piers Morgan on Allied Relations and the Iraq Precedent
PIERS MORGAN: Well, one of the problems is he keeps trashing them all publicly, which is — if you want to get people to help you, probably don’t call them a bunch of morons all the time, would be my starting point.
STEPHEN MOORE: Yeah, but we’ve helped them for forty years. We spent one hundred billion dollars on the defense of Europe. So for them to sit on their hands, I think Trump is right to say maybe we’re going to have to reinvestigate this relationship with Europe.
PIERS MORGAN: Well, it could just be that a lot of European countries were not persuaded that Iran was about to imminently have a nuclear weapon. And the reason for that — I can speak for my country, the UK. Although if I’d been prime minister, I would absolutely have allowed America to use our bases for any military action they wanted. I do think that we have quite long memories here of what happened with Iraq, where we were sure that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. And we went to war. It cost an enormous amount of money, an enormous amount of lives lost, led to the rise of ISIS. It was pretty well a catastrophe.
So I think people in Britain and others in Europe that went to war in Iraq over the issue of WMD are like, “You know what? We’re not persuaded.” And they should be allowed to be not persuaded, in my opinion, without the president going completely berserk as he’s done. Because I don’t think that helps persuade anybody to help in the way that — I think you reasonably put out a sort of narrative here — that yes, of course, all the countries that have a vested interest in the strait being reopened ought to be working together to do it. But it is quite hard when the guy that started the war that led to it being shut is just trashing you all the time.
Professor Jiang on China’s Role and US Escalation
PIERS MORGAN: Professor Jiang, let me bring you back into the debate here. Welcome back to Uncensored. We always get a great reaction when you come on, so thank you for sparing me some of your valuable time. Steven mentioned there China and why China isn’t doing more to help. It is interesting because China really gets more energy through the strait than anybody else in the world and therefore has a bigger vested interest, you would think, in getting it reopened as soon as possible. Why is China kind of sitting this out?
PROFESSOR JIANG: Well, China is not sitting this out. We have the ceasefire in place because China did a lot of backdoor diplomacy in order to pressure the Iranians to attempt a ceasefire. This is out of character for China. China does not like to involve itself in other nations’ affairs. And so I think without Chinese pressure, we would not have the IRGC agreeing with the ceasefire in the first place.
The issue is that the United States continues to be unreasonable in negotiations with the Iranians. The Iranians have done a lot in order to try to accommodate the Americans. But when J. D. Vance went to Pakistan for the first time to negotiate with Iranians, basically, it was a very heavy handed ultimatum to the Iranians. And after that, I think that the Iranians recognize that there really is no hope in negotiating with the Americans. The Americans want to escalate. Why the Americans want to escalate, we don’t know, but we can expect that over the next few weeks, the escalation will increase.
You know, Trump has talked about using US naval ships to escort oil tankers from Hormuz. This is clearly a provocation, and we might have a Gulf of Tonkin incident, which will allow Trump to justify a ground invasion.
Steve Keen on the Dangers of Ground Invasion
PIERS MORGAN: And a ground invasion, Steve Keen, would be, to me, pouring fuel onto what is already a burning fire of mayhem over there, which I think could be horrendous for the United States.
STEVE KEEN: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think the soldiers on the ships are having much the same reactions. We don’t know whether the nuclear aircraft carrier is taken out by Iranian attacks or by sailors stuffing their own clothing into the sewage system to block it and force it out of the conflict. Those are our two choices. You have probably the least willing American military in the history of America’s military incursions, supposed to go up against a country of ninety million people who know they face an existential risk. It’s absolutely ludicrous to be talking about ground troops going into that part of the world.
And from what I’ve got from reports of people who I know are experts in that area, unless the Americans have Star Wars style weapons to use against the Iranians, then this is going to be a slaughter of those American troops. And again, I completely agree. This has probably been set up as another false flag, which America should be famous for. The Gulf of Tonkin, which dragged them into the Vietnam conflict in the first place, was put across as an attack by American ships in international waters — it was actually an American attack within Vietnamese waters. All this stuff. America sets up these wars and then loses them.
Piers Morgan on Trump and the Road Ahead
PIERS MORGAN: You’ve described Donald Trump as an anarchist who behaves like a mafia boss with no idea of consequences. And you’ve sent this message to world leaders: “Get rid of Trump, stop this.” America has to concede defeat and step back to give us a chance to rebuild the world’s physical infrastructure before global famine sets in. You added, “It’s a clusterf* coming out of America.”
The Iran Conflict, Trumponomics, and the Global Economic Outlook
PROFESSOR KEEN: “If you’re going to see regime change to stop this war, forget about seeing it in Iran. You need to see it in America.”
PIERS MORGAN: I mean, that’s strong rhetorical stuff there. Just explain what you’re getting at.
PROFESSOR KEEN: Well, look, first of all, my perspective on Trump comes from having a personal relationship with somebody with narcissistic personality disorder. And everything — I think the one advantage of that relationship in the long term was I understood Donald Trump, I think. And that is that he simply wants to make himself the center of attention. And it doesn’t matter how you do it. You make a center of attention by giving a nice stance, or by invading another country. He just wants to be the centre of attention.
I think that’s why he fell for Netanyahu’s provocation, which forty years of previous American presidents have resisted, and went in, in the belief that it was over in a couple of days. I mean, all the talk about, you know, we’ve got to get Iran to be reasonable, Iranian regime, yada yada yada. The very first thing the Americans did was assassinate the top leadership of the country, including the father, and I believe the wife, of the new leader. You want to be taken seriously as somebody to negotiate with? That just tells you don’t negotiate.
Defeat them on the ground. And just like Vietnam was a war where they brought an enormous firepower and lost to a guerrilla army, this is bringing an enormous firepower and taking against a political system, which has broken itself into thirty-one heads of a hydra, so that you can’t take it out collectively. So all America’s tactics have backfired so far. They’ll continue backfiring. The only way out is for Donald Trump to declare victory while conceding defeat.
Trumponomics and the Economic Impact of the War
PIERS MORGAN: Stephen Moore, look, I can’t imagine a scenario where Donald Trump tries to get out of this without at least presenting a case for total victory. That’s his nature. But in terms of this war and the impact it’s had on his legacy, how was the tariff war doing before all this? In other words, the Trumponomics, which he launched with huge gusto, you know, kind of a year ago — how was that playing out, do you think, globally before this? In other words, was his economic strategy, do you think, working? And has this put everything back, or was it not really working? And has this added to the general sense of chaos?
STEVE MOORE: Well, first of all, I just have to say — come on. It seems like you all can’t determine who’s the good guy here and who’s the evil.
PROFESSOR KEEN: The cops.
STEVE MOORE: Yeah. Exactly. I mean, that’s my point. If you actually think that we’re the bad guys in the arena — the Iranians are the good guys — you have a personal personality disorder, my friend. Sorry. And it really is amazing that you think that we’re the villains here. And by the way, again, I’m not even — I wasn’t even necessarily in favor of this incursion in the first place, but come on. This is a regime that was killing thousands, thousands, murdering their own people. It was a regime that was pursuing nuclear — f* this. So how are we the bad guys by trying to save lives? And I do think, look, I think to Trump’s credit, he really did view this as a humanitarian mission, to save lives that were being lost.
Now, in terms of our economy, look, we’ve had now five and a half years of Trump’s presidency with an incredibly strong economy. Trumponomics has worked. If it hadn’t been for COVID, Trump would have been reelected with a forty-state reelection landslide. The economy was very strong going into 2026, and it’s true that the Iran situation has really changed that picture dramatically, which is why Trump really needs to bring this to an end as quickly as possible. But by the way, I’m not just attacking Steve. I think there are a lot of foreign leaders too who can’t seem to figure out who’s the good guy and who’s the bad guy here. That’s quite troubling to me.
PROFESSOR KEEN: I was facing being conscripted to fight for freedom in Vietnam. And the one thing that thrilled me is — why am I being conscripted to fight for freedom? Okay? You go into Vietnam. You attack it. Your whole thing is about you’re going to stop the communist invasion of Southeast Asia. Who was the first country Vietnam had a war with? China — the first and last war. That turned out completely against what you thought was going to happen. Afghanistan, Iraq. I was against you. I was against this one as well. Grow up. Okay? If you can’t realize that —
STEVE MOORE: But I’m saying it’s the evil empire here, then you’ve —
PROFESSOR KEEN: It’s the United States.
STEVE MOORE: You’re saying the United States is the evil empire?
PROFESSOR KEEN: Yes. The United States —
STEVE MOORE: Wow. What country has invaded America? How many countries has America invaded? Please stop reading Hollywood scripts and realize —
PROFESSOR KEEN: I seem to think that 9/11 was an attack on America. Maybe you don’t agree with that.
STEVE MOORE: Yes. Okay. That’s — which country? I said before —
PROFESSOR KEEN: Oops. You forgot about that one. Right?
STEVE MOORE: No. I didn’t forget. I said country.
PROFESSOR KEEN: No country did that. That was a rogue — and the rogues came from Saudi Arabia, not from the bloody country you raided. And the results speak for themselves. You guys have got a Hollywood version of your own history. It’s a joke from the outside. Nobody takes you seriously anymore.
STEVE MOORE: Okay. That was for the evil empire. Why is it every immigrant in the world wants to come to the United States?
PROFESSOR KEEN: Nobody wants to go there now, mate. Are you at the border now? You should be at the border.
STEVE MOORE: We have millions of people who are signing up to get visas to come to the United States. They don’t want to go to any other country. They want to come to the US.
PIERS MORGAN: Look, from my point of view, let me be crystal clear. I do think Iran is an evil regime. For forty-seven years, it’s been oppressive to its own people in a despicable way, and also it’s been the key sponsor of terrorism — to the Houthis, Hezbollah, and Hamas — through the last few decades. And we’ve all seen where that has led. That’s been part of the big picture problem.
China’s Resilience and Strategic Position
PIERS MORGAN: Professor Jiang, let me bring you back in here. People are looking at manufacturing resilience as one of the reasons why China ultimately will prevail here in the economic aspect of what is going on. China has moved beyond cheap labor to advanced automation. Steve Keen has noted that if global trade stops, China has the internal infrastructure to survive, whereas the West has outsourced its survival. Do you agree with that?
PROFESSOR JIANG: Yeah. I mean, if you just look at the past couple of months, China has been much more resilient and much more able to adapt to a new economic circumstance than other countries in Southeast Asia, especially the Philippines and Thailand. And Japan has also had a lot of stress as well. So it seems that the Chinese government has been preparing for this eventuality for a long, long time. They’ve been very strategic. They’ve been very long term in their thinking.
The issue is that the long-term strategic scenario does not favor China, because China is still an economy that depends on exports. And if there are these wars raging around the world, then it’s going to be very hard for China to export its manufactured goods to the rest of the world. The second issue is that China consumes a lot of resources. Yes, I do understand that China has renewables, and I do know that China has a lot of inventory and stockpiles, but eventually all this is going to run out. So from a long-term strategic perspective, China is not as well adapted to change as, say, maybe Russia or the United States.
Will the Iran Conflict Deter China from Invading Taiwan?
PIERS MORGAN: Will what’s happened here with Iran — and actually to a lesser degree the Russian invasion of Ukraine, which has also been now four years in and is becoming a real quagmire — will what’s happened deter China from invading Taiwan, for example?
PROFESSOR JIANG: I think that given the current geopolitical outlook, and given the fact that this situation in Iran is only going to escalate and may have ripple effects throughout the world, I think that China is going to be much more cautious in its approach. In fact, we may see that China begins to become much more isolationist over the years.
PIERS MORGAN: Yeah, I mean, that’s what I would certainly be tempted to do if I were them. Steve Keen, what is your prediction? We’ve talked about what is happening and what we feel about it, but what is your prediction for how this plays out?
Steve Keen’s Terrifying Prediction
PROFESSOR KEEN: I’m terrified about what the consequences could be here, because the Iranians have done a very clever tactic of basically guerrilla warfare at a national level, far beyond what the Vietnamese were ready for in the very first instance. And they are telling — tit for tat — anybody who’s been a supporter of America — of course, that includes the Arab principalities and kingdoms and the Israelis as well — will be retaliated against for any attack done on specific similar resources inside Iran itself.
There’s already been one attack on a desalination plant in Iran. And I think I’ve seen figures to say that ninety-six percent of Iran’s water is natural. You look at the other side, the Arabian side — some of them have ninety-six percent dependence upon desalination. If it goes that far, then we will — and you have no idea how this stupid attack is going to turn out — then that could mean that those areas have to be evacuated, because people are not going to starve to death. They’re going to die of thirst.
The horrific possibilities here are just ludicrous. And it’s absolutely a monumental failure of judgment to begin this conflict in the first place.
The Global Economy and the Gulf States
PIERS MORGAN: Yeah, I mean, Stephen Moore, that is the problem, it seems to me — is that no one can say with any real confidence what is going to happen. And the one thing that the global economy needs is confidence. And no one, I don’t think, can say that right now.
We’ve also got this kind of geopolitical turmoil with the Gulf States, where they’ve all been attacked. They’re seeing their business model — to replace oil, which was going to be tourism: “Come here, it’s safe, it’s sunny, we’re going to have entertainment and sport” and so on — we’re seeing a dramatic dialing down of investment in things like golf. The LIV Golf investment is ending, and so on. You’re seeing lots of immediate reactive signs that this has been very damaging to the ongoing future business model of countries like Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Qatar, and so on. So there’s a lot going on here, isn’t there?
STEVE MOORE: There is. I mean, I don’t know where to start. I would simply say that one really, really positive thing that’s happened the last couple of weeks is the UAE dropping out of OPEC. I mean, as long as I’ve been alive — since I was a teenager, I go back to the 1970s — we’ve had OPEC with a blade at our neck, where they could, just by turning on and off the spigots, really throw the American economy into recession and cause a global recession. And the fact that OPEC is falling apart, or at least appears so, is a very good thing.
And by the way, the real reason OPEC is falling apart is that the country that has the most oil and gas in the world is the United States. We’re the number one producer now, which is amazing. And how do you have a cartel when the number one producer isn’t part of your cartel? So whether you like Donald Trump or not, everybody has to agree that his “Drill Baby Drill” strategy has been amazing for the US economy — it’s made us less reliant, although we’re still relying on Middle East oil, made us much less so.
So I think the approach going forward for the US should be to produce as much energy as we possibly can at home — our oil, our gas, our coal, our nuclear power. And when it’s appropriate, we could maybe get some energy from wind and solar. Use it all, so that we don’t have to be captive to the Middle East any longer.
PIERS MORGAN: But is it naive, Steven, for President Trump to take a view of, “This is not our problem” — the energy part of this — almost pretending there isn’t a global energy economy that America inevitably will be dependent on?
STEVE MOORE: Of course. And there’s a global oil supply and a global oil demand. And what I’m saying is that we can somewhat inoculate ourselves from that, because the more and more we produce, the more valuable the oil is.
The World Heading Toward a 1930s-Style Collapse?
PIERS MORGAN: Professor Jiang, the inevitable consequence of all this, I guess, is that many countries — as Stephen Moore just indicated — will become, as you said earlier about China, isolationist. What impact will that have, do you think, on geopolitics globally?
PROFESSOR JIANG: I think that we are coming to a point where the world is going to look very similar to the 1930s — when the world became much more isolationist, when the global economy collapsed, and when war started to flare up around the world. I mean, even though America is the wealthiest country in the world, even though it is energy independent, its economy is still globally reliant. So if the GCC collapses, then it loses its petrodollar. It loses all those trillions of dollars in investment, and we could see a financial crisis in America over the next few months, which would lead to a catastrophic global depression. So the outlook for the world is very, very grim.
Steve Keen on Bitcoin: An Apocalyptic Warning
PIERS MORGAN: Steve Keen, you’ve been very apocalyptic about the future of Bitcoin. Explain why.
PROFESSOR KEEN: Oh, mainly because people have talked about Bitcoin as being an alternative to money. And this is, to me, just naive about the nature of money itself. And this is common across the entire economics profession.
Bitcoin, Global Depression, and the Future of Technology
STEVE KEEN: Economists, weirdly enough in their mathematical models, do not include banks or debt or money. And they understate, shred sheet money is if it’s a commodity, when money is fundamentally a promise of a bank to you to honor your liabilities to them. That’s the actual nature of it.
So when Bitcoin was formed, it was based on the same idea as a similar acronym to gold. The trouble is that gold actually does have a value outside its use in the monetary system. The production cost of gold is about five hundred dollars an ounce, I believe, at the moment. And that’s pretty much competing to its floor. If you don’t use it for money, then this price will, or a hedge against economic danger, then its value will fall back to its cost of production, plus a margin. It’s used in all sorts of things, from jewelry to computer devices.
Bitcoin can only be used as either a store of value or a means of payment. Now, we’ve had almost twenty years of Bitcoin now, and it’s still not used by any scale as a means of payment. And the main thing, it’s been treated as a store of value. That’s where the term HODL comes from, “hold on for dear life.” So the idea is you’ve got a device which is supposed to be replacing money, but it’s focusing upon the store of value side of money rather than the use for exchanges. Now, if you focus upon the store of value, you don’t spend.
So I’m feeling it’s actually wrongly set up in the first place. It’s only got value when people think its price is going to rise. Now, we’re reaching the point where maybe you’ve got as much penetration as it will ever go. And when it stops rising, then the only way to go is down. Where I see the bottom isn’t zero quite, but it’s at the stage where there are transactions you don’t want to put through the SWIFT system or through the monetary system. Illegal drug sales come to mind, and weapon sales and that sort of thing. That’s its floor. Way, way below its current price of, what, sixty thousand dollars roughly.
Bitcoin’s Energy Problem
PIERS MORGAN: And is the particular issue with Bitcoin also that it uses up enormous amounts of energy? Therefore, if there becomes a global energy shortage, that puts even more pressure on Bitcoin.
STEVE KEEN: Yeah, absolutely. I’m totally on the other side of the fence on global warming, by the way, to Stephen. He probably knows that. But in that case, if we are forced to say we’ve got to cut back on energy consumption, then the two easiest things to end are international tourism and Bitcoin.
PIERS MORGAN: Stephen, oddly, I saw you nodding pretty much throughout everything Steve Keen just said. So have we reached a point of agreement here?
STEVE MOORE: Well, maybe. Look, I’m glad that we have alternative private currencies out there, which is exactly what Bitcoin is. I got to tell you, I’m not an investor, and I don’t own Bitcoins because I don’t understand it. It makes me nervous, and I think it could crash, but who knows? I know people who invested in early who are now, you know…
So what I would say, though, the reason I favor these kind of alternative private currencies is for too long, we’ve let central bankers control our money supply, and they haven’t done a very good job of it with the herky jerky inflation. And so I think this is a good way to keep them in check. By the way, the central bankers hate cryptocurrencies because they don’t want the competition. I’m kind of a libertarian, so I like the idea that cryptos are out there, but I’m not investing in them myself.
Are We Heading for a Global Depression?
PIERS MORGAN: Professor Jiang, just finally, are we heading for a global recession, do you think?
PROFESSOR JIANG: I think that we are heading towards a global depression, and this is a process that could take decades. We are in a new normal. We are in the undiscovered country. The level of destruction, the level of pain and suffering that we are moving towards is unimaginable. So buckle up.
STEVE MOORE: Can I answer that question?
PIERS MORGAN: Yes, go ahead.
STEVE MOORE: Look, we are entering the greatest period of productivity, the greatest productivity revolution in the history of civilization. Nothing will, over the next ten years, we’ll never see anything like what is coming with respect to this incredible robotics revolution. So that’s going to raise living standards.
PIERS MORGAN: Steven? Because surely the big question with that is, if the future is robotic, then aren’t humans just going to get screwed in the process?
STEVE MOORE: No, it’s like saying a machine is going to make people poor. No, economic progress and productivity makes people richer, not poor. And so we’re going to see amazing things. And by the way, not just in the area of production. Literally in the next ten years, through technology, blind people will be able to see, people in wheelchairs will be able to rise up and walk, we will be able to cure cancer. I mean, this is an incredible future we’re facing, and it’s going to not just be good for our health, but our wealth as well.
Sliding Doors: Two Visions of the Future
PIERS MORGAN: Okay, so we have two options, Steve Keen, finally. One is a global depression over the next few decades. The other one is a global explosion of euphoric joy and success and triumph. So where do you stand?
STEVE KEEN: Remember the old movies, the old movie “Sliding Doors.” Make it through the train, you don’t make it through the train. I think we’re at a sliding doors moment.
I completely disagree with Stephen, and we haven’t talked about global warming, and I think he’s completely wrong on that front. Do you not think that the technology will cause more problems? Technology requires energy. One of my little shorthands, label that energy as a corpse. Capital of that energy is a sculpture. If you don’t have the energy, the economy collapses.
We’re seeing that right now with what the Iran war is doing. We’re going to see a ten percent or twenty percent fall in energy levels. Quite literally, when you look at the data, a ten percent fall in energy means a ten percent fall in GDP. That’s as big a downturn as the Great Depression. So that alone is coming our way right now out of this stupid war that should never have been commenced.
Then the long term, I would love us to get to that future. I’m a technology designer myself. I understand this area. I would love to see it happen. But it means we have to avoid catastrophe from global warming. I know you believe that it’s a myth. Your side has won the public debate over that. We’re going to find out the hard way in the next five years whether you’re right or not. That’s the sliding door. We could make it to the other side and have the future of plenty. But if we don’t make it to the other side, we go back to Cape Town.
China’s Energy Leadership
STEVE MOORE: Technology is the solution to climate change. In other words, if it’s really happening, the only way to divert it is to protect—
STEVE KEEN: The only country that’s getting there is China. China is the one country that seems to be pushing itself heavily towards alternative energy, both renewables and nuclear, and it’s even got the world’s first relatively successful thorium reactor. So America’s wasted its time invading other countries, blowing up the rest of the planet, trying to control the oil system rather than building its own infrastructure.
STEVE MOORE: You’re saying China’s going to use energy that’s twice as expensive as oil, gas, and coal, and somehow they’re going to get rich on that. I would bet that’s about—
STEVE KEEN: People used to say that the sun doesn’t always shine and the wind doesn’t always blow. Now we’re saying the Strait of Hormuz doesn’t always flow, and that’s far more significant. We’re going to see a huge desire by people, the rest of the world, to liberate themselves from reliance upon oil, whether you think that’s economic or not.
STEVE MOORE: You know who tried to do that? Germany tried it. Look at Germany today.
STEVE KEEN: Germany turned off its own nuclear power stations. That was monumentally stupid. China is the one that’s been developing the nuclear technology. China remembers the opium wars far better than the rest of the world does. They know they can’t trust the West. They’re building self sufficiency and technological leadership. If you want to see technological leadership and where robotics might lead to people benefiting, it’s going to be China, not America.
PIERS MORGAN: Okay, we’ve got to leave it there. Fascinating debate, gentlemen. Thank you all very much. I really enjoyed that.
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