Read the full transcript of The Young Turks (TYT) host Ana Kasparian’s interview on The Tucker Carlson Show episode titled “Epstein Cover-Up, Israel Strikes Gaza Church, & the Great American Political Shift”, premiered on July 25, 2025.
The Unlikely Interview: Ana Kasparian on Tucker Carlson
TUCKER CARLSON: So normally when I do an unconventional interview with, like, Putin or the president of Iran, people get mad and they ask, you know, why are you talking to him? This is one of those very rare, maybe unique circumstances where people are going to ask you.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah.
TUCKER CARLSON: Why are you talking to him?
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, yeah.
TUCKER CARLSON: And people are going to get mad.
ANA KASPARIAN: People are going to get very angry. I know. And your producers had been reaching out, trying to get me to talk to you for at least a year and a half. And my feelings toward coming on your show went from “I would never in a million years” to kind of giving myself the opportunity to listen to your podcast, to figure out who you really are. Because, of course, I had very strong thoughts about who you are.
TUCKER CARLSON: Really?
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. But I realized that it was based on clips that I would watch of you that had gone viral, and they had gone viral because they were offensive or you had said something that was…
TUCKER CARLSON: Viral, like syphilis is viral.
Finding Common Ground Despite Deep Disagreements
ANA KASPARIAN: I mean, pretty much. I mean, should think of it that way because it was mostly painting you in a very negative light. And to be sure, you and I have some pretty deep disagreements. But I think that some of what you’ve been talking about lately hits at the heart of what I care most about, and that’s the importance of this country representing the American people.
The importance of the United States being a sovereign country that has politicians and a government that prioritizes the American people as opposed to a foreign government. And speaking out the way you’ve been speaking out about some of these issues takes a lot of courage because it goes against the grain and it goes against decades of propaganda and conditioning in American media.
And so, to me, that commonality that you and I share made me a lot more open minded to coming on this show, because I do think that Americans from across the political spectrum need to find areas of agreement, especially as it pertains to making this country better, so we can apply appropriate pressure on our politicians and get them to represent us, regardless of the corruption, regardless of the influence of foreign governments.
At the end of the day, these politicians are nothing if it weren’t for the American people. Right now, what’s really interesting is in Congress, it appears that there’s this bipartisan effort to force a vote to release the Epstein files.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.
ANA KASPARIAN: And the only reason why that’s happening is because there’s a very loud and aggressive portion of the MAGA base that’s demanding it, and they’re not letting it go. And I commend them, because I agree with them. I think we need transparency. We need to know whether or not we have members in our government or influential people in the periphery of our government who are pedophiles. I want to know.
The Principle of National Sovereignty
TUCKER CARLSON: I think that’s fair. Yeah, it’s interesting, the framework that you laid out. The government of any country ought to be sovereign, which is to say it should make most of its big decisions on the basis of what’s good for the people that it represents. And it’s bad when foreign countries control your country. Those are not… Those don’t strike me as hateful statements at all. Those aren’t expressions of animus against anybody, are they?
ANA KASPARIAN: I don’t think they’re hateful statements at all. I’m an American. I love this country. I love the people in this country. And I don’t want to live in this ridiculous perversion of the American government where they pretend to represent us. But in reality, Americans are on the back burner.
Our tax dollars are being taken from us not to help Americans who need help, but to give all sorts of subsidies to private industries that are already doing really well. They don’t need extra subsidies or tax cuts or things like that. But in addition to that, all the foreign aid that we’re pumping into the Middle East, Israel.
Oftentimes when we talk about foreign aid that goes to Israel at this point, I believe it’s about $4 billion a year on top of all of the military aid that we’ve been pumping into Israel over the last two years. I mean, it’s unacceptable to me that we’re doing that.
And in the backdrop of that, you have the United States Congress cutting $1.1 trillion to Medicaid. That’s the problem. That’s where we need to cut funding from? Also cutting funding to food assistance. How do you justify sending tens of billions of dollars to Israel in the last two years alone while targeting cuts to Medicaid and food stamps?
It makes me beyond angry. I think it’s so unbelievably unjust. And if you speak out about it the way I’m doing right now… I’m sorry, I’m getting kind of aggressive. If you speak out about it like I am right now, people try to smear you as an anti-Semite. And you know what? I’m not an anti-Semite. I know what’s in my heart, and I’m not going to let those smears stop me from saying what I know is correct and what’s morally just.
The Tactic of Character Assassination
TUCKER CARLSON: Is it possible that people are slandered in order to prevent conversations like this from happening in the first place?
ANA KASPARIAN: I mean, yes.
TUCKER CARLSON: So you sort of want… I have all kinds of stupid opinions. I’ve said all kinds of stupid things. I’ve had ugly opinions in the past. I’m not defending every opinion I have had or even currently have. I’m merely saying to reduce someone to a caricature is a kind of tactic to prevent anyone from having a real conversation with the person.
ANA KASPARIAN: It’s meant to discredit. And yeah, you’re right. It’s meant to stop these types of conversations from happening. Now, you are very conservative. I’m not very conservative. I have some views that lean more conservative than progressives feel comfortable with and that’s okay. But at the end of the day, what drives my politics is this desire for everyone to thrive economically. And you know, you’ve been speaking out…
TUCKER CARLSON: How is that… So what is the difference? If I could, I mean, I would hope that would be everyone’s desire.
ANA KASPARIAN: It’s not.
TUCKER CARLSON: It’s not at all. But what does it mean to be, not to get too philosophical here, but what does it mean to be conservative or liberal at this point?
Beyond Traditional Political Labels
ANA KASPARIAN: Well, I don’t think that the political labels that we currently have in this country make much sense anymore, to be honest with you. But I’m talking about traditional conservatism. You know, I believe in reproductive rights to a point.
TUCKER CARLSON: Right.
ANA KASPARIAN: You know, I know that you’re anti-abortion big time. So that’s a disagreement we have. And I’m not at all going to come on this show and capitulate on my beliefs.
TUCKER CARLSON: Right.
ANA KASPARIAN: But I think that those are important issues. I’m not minimizing them.
TUCKER CARLSON: Right.
ANA KASPARIAN: But I feel that we can’t even really engage in a real debate about policy or specific issues unless we know we have a sovereign… we’re living in a sovereign country and we have a government that actually has interest in representing us.
TUCKER CARLSON: Right. Because it doesn’t. It doesn’t really matter otherwise.
ANA KASPARIAN: Right.
TUCKER CARLSON: If people keep voting for different things but get the same result.
ANA KASPARIAN: Exactly.
TUCKER CARLSON: Then the system is fake. And that’s the point where people start to go crazy and do radical, violent things, which I’m completely opposed to. I just want to say that at the outset, I hate violent radicalism more than anything. And I feel like that’s the result of people realizing their system is fake. So you have to make it kind of real.
Connecting with Rural America
ANA KASPARIAN: You’re right about that. And, you know, we’ve been seeing more and more political violence in this country, and it’s terrifying. I mean, I’m not justifying it, but I can explain why it’s happening for sure, and I don’t want things to devolve further.
Here’s the other reason why I decided to come. So I knew that you moved here, you moved to a rural part of the country. And I live in a big city. And I think that living in a big city and spending most of your time in a big city kind of blinds you to the rest of America. A lot of Americans live in rural parts of the country.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.
ANA KASPARIAN: And I want the opportunity to speak to them, get to know them, understand where their hearts and their minds are at. And so I saw it as an opportunity to expose myself to people that I otherwise wouldn’t get an opportunity to speak to. And you… I think you’ve hired drivers to bring people to where you’re at.
TUCKER CARLSON: It’s very far away. Yes.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, the airport’s very far. But I love that because they’re not Uber drivers.
TUCKER CARLSON: They’re unemployed loggers and stuff.
ANA KASPARIAN: No, but they are.
TUCKER CARLSON: I know.
Working Class Unity Across Party Lines
ANA KASPARIAN: I can’t tell you how much I’ve enjoyed having conversations with them. So one of the drivers who picked me up, Jen, she mentioned the “big, beautiful bill” that just passed. And, you know, I can tell she identifies as Republican and she wasn’t happy with that bill. And I suspected that most ordinary working class Americans, whether they’re Democrats or Republicans, are not happy with that bill.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.
ANA KASPARIAN: You know, the $1.1 trillion in cuts to Medicaid. That’s what she brought up. She brought that up. And I thought that was really fascinating. Now, if you talk to someone who identifies as a liberal Democrat, they’ll probably think, “Oh, these Republican voters, they’re so greedy. All they want is tax cuts. They want to cut the social safety net.”
But no, actually, when it comes to ordinary people, there’s a lot of agreement, a lot of agreement. A lot of people are suffering right now. And you know, you have all these different industries, especially beginning in the 90s, offshoring all these jobs that have been destroyed. I mean, most people work in the service sector at this point and manufacturing jobs are gone.
I think that’s part of the reason why Donald Trump has been so appealing to the MAGA base without question. And so I want ordinary people to just consider the contradiction here. So if you’re a liberal Democrat and you’re under the assumption that Republican voters are just greedy and they want to cut the social safety net, why would they love Trump so much, who ran as an economic populist?
Trump’s Economic Promises vs. Reality
Now, I don’t think that Trump has carried out his promises because of… well, there’s a lot of different examples I can cite, but the most recent is the so-called “big beautiful bill.” Yeah, there are some provisions in there. No tax on tips, it’s going to be means tested, and it also expires in four years. Whereas the tax benefits that disproportionately benefit the wealthy are permanent.
The no tax on Social Security for the elderly, that also will expire. And it’s up to a certain amount. I think it’s $6,000 if I’m not mistaken. The child tax credit, I think was just peanuts compared to what I think this country could afford in helping families. You want to encourage people to have kids?
TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.
ANA KASPARIAN: Okay. Best way to do it is to create an economic situation where couples feel comfortable bringing life into this world.
TUCKER CARLSON: I agree.
ANA KASPARIAN: You know, and then no tax on overtime. That’s another example that’s also means tested and that’s a provision that will expire in 2028. It’s just interesting to see which provisions are permanent and which are set to expire in four years when Trump is done with his term.
So if you really want to represent the working class, you got to put your money where your mouth is. And I haven’t really seen it to the extent that Trump claimed he was going to help the working class in this country.
TUCKER CARLSON: Interesting.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah.
The Honest Party vs. The Liar Party
TUCKER CARLSON: So when did you have your views changed?
ANA KASPARIAN: I have some views that have definitely changed. Yeah, I wouldn’t say that I swung from far left to far right.
TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know. Yeah, I don’t even know what that means, actually. I mean, I don’t think I can answer the question, so I don’t know why I’m asking it of you. But what do the terms mean now?
And for whatever it’s worth, I’ve settled on people who are honest, people who lie. And that’s the only division. Maybe have the honest party, the liar party or something in the future.
But clearly you’ve started thinking things or thinking through things that you hadn’t before. And God bless you, that’s the greatest privilege of adulthood. You get to think for yourself. It’s happened to me a lot. But how did that start?
Personal Experience Changes Everything
ANA KASPARIAN: Well, I mean, it started with personal experiences. And it often does. Right. Often your policy preferences will slap you in the face and then you’re like, “oh, I don’t like that.”
TUCKER CARLSON: Right. No, I get it.
ANA KASPARIAN: You know, because sometimes there are unintended consequences. I’ll give you a specific example. So I was very much supportive of the defund the police movement in 2020.
And it was because you see this video of a man dying on camera with a police officer, refusing to ease up on him, and it really made me angry. I felt that it was – whatever you think about George Floyd I don’t care. Right. What was happening in that moment in that video was so disgusting to me and so unjust.
And so I was like, “no, we…” I totally bought the narrative that it’s not actually about abolishing police. It’s about taking some of that funding and investing in social services or in social workers. So social workers respond to certain calls instead of the police. That actually has ended up being pretty disastrous in California, in Los Angeles in particular, because I’ve seen it firsthand.
TUCKER CARLSON: And you’re from there?
The Reality of Defund the Police in Los Angeles
ANA KASPARIAN: I’m from there. My best friend since childhood – she’s a social worker herself. And I’ve talked to other social workers about what their experience has been like, and they’re like… I actually interviewed one for a piece I wrote for Real Clear Investigations, and she told me, “look, it hasn’t really worked out the way people have thought it would work out.”
Oftentimes we’ll go to a call, and it’s supposed to be a nonviolent person or a nonviolent call. Someone’s having a mental health episode, but they’ll show up. And oftentimes it’ll be someone who does have a weapon. It’s not a gun, but it’s maybe a knife. And they feel threatened, so they have no choice but to call the police.
And so in 2021, the Los Angeles City Council was inspired by BLM, and they decided to take $150 million away from the LAPD’s budget and instead invest it in other services. It actually ended up being even more. We’re spending more on police, more on the LAPD than we ever have – record amounts.
And the reason why is because you have to really ask yourself before you make these decisions, “okay, do we need this many officers?” Let’s compare Los Angeles to other huge cities. What’s the police officer or sworn officer to citizen ratio? And in LA, it’s always been historically lower, much lower than other major cities.
So at the peak of the LAPD and the number of sworn officers in the LAPD, we had about 10,000. After the cuts and after all the difficulty in recruiting new sworn officers because people don’t want to be police officers anymore for understandable reasons – it’s not a desirable job when you have people constantly talking about how terrible cops are. So now we have about 8,500.
And as a result, the remaining sworn officers are working insane overtime. We have one police officer in the LAPD. I think his name is Nathan Corey, he made $600,000 one year because of police overtime. So right now, taxpayers in Los Angeles…
TUCKER CARLSON: $600,000?
ANA KASPARIAN: Yes, yes. So right now, taxpayers in LA are kind of confronted with this situation where they’re paying far more for less as it pertains to policing. Since there is a shortage, there’s longer wait times.
If you call 911 and you need help, some people complain that they’ll call. And if it’s not – let’s say someone was the victim of a burglary, obviously you’re not in imminent danger. So they’ll call the cops and hope that someone will show up, take fingerprints and maybe find who burglarized them. They never do, but they don’t show up for hours.
And people get really upset and they’re like, “why is this happening?” And what’s really interesting is I try to explain why it’s happening and I get called all sorts of names for doing it, but I don’t care. The truth is the truth.
The Courage to Admit Being Wrong
TUCKER CARLSON: Wait, wait, what do you… I mean, okay, first of all, why are you one of the only people willing to admit you were wrong about defund the police? I mean, bless you, it’s the beginning of growth, but I’ve done it myself many times. But why were you willing to admit that?
ANA KASPARIAN: Because at the core of who I am, I think as a journalist, I didn’t enter this line of work to be a mouthpiece for anyone. I really care about the truth. And I feel that if you want to live in a democracy, you have to make sure that people are getting accurate information to make the right decisions for themselves once they’re casting a ballot.
TUCKER CARLSON: Right.
ANA KASPARIAN: And so I felt angry because I felt misled by the media.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yep.
Breaking Out of the Bubble
ANA KASPARIAN: And now, it was partly my fault, too, because I was in a bubble and I was only getting one side of every story. And even if I agree with that side, I should at least hear what the opposing argument is. And I wasn’t going out of my way to do that before. Now I do.
And so I see things as far more complex and nuanced. And it’s hard to make an argument that’s going to appease any audience at this point because I think a lot of Americans have been conditioned to be partisan and prioritize partisanship before truth. And I think truth is what will set us free genuinely. Truth will help us ensure that we have a better government.
And I’m sorry, one side or the other does not have a monopoly on the truth, they just don’t. And one side might get something right one time, the other side might have a good point when it comes to a different issue. And I think we just need to be open minded and more importantly, we need to have conversations with people.
Because if you just rely on what the media is saying about a particular political figure or particular media figure, why are you letting them tell you what to think about individuals? Why don’t you actually do a little bit of digging or have these conversations yourself and try to figure out who these people really are?
The speech you gave at Turning Point. I said a few things in there that I might not agree with. But the overall message was so courageous and I never thought in a million years I would hear it at a conservative conference.
TUCKER CARLSON: Never. It’s just interesting. Well, I mean, the truth is wherever it is, and you try to recognize it. But I hope I’m going to give you my text and I want you to text me, if you will, criticism of what you’re saying now.
ANA KASPARIAN: Okay.
TUCKER CARLSON: Because I want to keep a list of people who are offended by what you’re saying just in my head. How could anyone be offended by what you’re saying now?
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, well, it might not be…
TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, you’re not the criminal here.
Refusing to Be Policed
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. Well, let me just be honest with you. I think that most people who are going to attack me aren’t even going to listen to this interview. It’s just the fact that we’re having a conversation with each other.
But I take offense to people trying to police who I can talk to. In fact, the more they try to police me, the more I want to talk to the person they forbid me to speak to. Honestly, I’ve always been like that. I’ve been like that since I was a kid. My mom knows it better than anyone. I’m just a little bit rebellious and I don’t like to be told what to do. I hate it.
TUCKER CARLSON: And what to think.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah.
TUCKER CARLSON: And who you can talk to. I mean, that’s the most… That’s a core decision. Who do I associate with?
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah.
TUCKER CARLSON: Who are my friends? Who am I having dinner with? Who do I marry? I mean, if you allow other people to make those decisions for you, you’re not free.
Curiosity as a Journalist
ANA KASPARIAN: No, you’re not. And oh my God, what a terrible career path to be a journalist who doesn’t get to have conversations with people that they’re curious about. I’m curious about you. I am. You were a neocon.
TUCKER CARLSON: I was. I became… hard to believe that.
ANA KASPARIAN: It is hard to believe that I became politicized in the lead up to the Iraq invasion in 2003. Yes, I was in high school. And I remember in 2002, I went to a hippie magnet school, and we had Peace Day annually. And I remember giving a speech in 2002 to make the case against the preemptive war in Iraq.
And I remember… You’re going to laugh at this. I remember in English class, we were reading a play, the Glass Menagerie, which I found deeply boring. And I had a cutout of a New York Times article in which Bill Kristol was one of the people the reporter interviewed. And Bill Kristol loves war. Loves war. Hardcore neocon.
And I just remember sitting in that English class, reading his quotes and seething over it and thinking to myself, “I can’t wait to one day get an opportunity to confront him.” And I actually did get that opportunity. It wasn’t about war, but it was a Politikon panel debate about healthcare. And I kind of brought up the fact that Israel has universal health care and Americans don’t.
TUCKER CARLSON: What did he say?
Confronting Bill Kristol
ANA KASPARIAN: He was so unprepared. There’s a picture of him… He has index cards. Someone wrote notes down for him, and he’s just fumbling with the index cards. He doesn’t know what to do. And then once the whole panel discussion was over, someone who was with me overheard him say, “damn it, she came prepared.” Something along those lines.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, it’s arrogance. It’s people who’ve been told since they were small that they’re brilliant. Bill Kristol, Ted Cruz. I mean, it does distort you, and it actually makes you dumb. Paradoxically, over time, definitely. Yeah. Never pressed.
ANA KASPARIAN: Gotta stay humble.
The Honesty Test
TUCKER CARLSON: I completely agree with you. Yeah, it’s not hard for me. I just wanted to emphasize that point. You came to the conclusion that you were wrong and you said so out loud.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah.
TUCKER CARLSON: And to me, that’s the acid test. Is someone honest? I don’t know. Will that person admit being wrong? That’s when we know.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, totally.
TUCKER CARLSON: And, okay, so you live in the same place. That’s also hugely helpful because you can see it over time. The same place.
ANA KASPARIAN: True.
TUCKER CARLSON: You know Ventura Boulevard. You’ve lived near it your whole life.
ANA KASPARIAN: Right.
TUCKER CARLSON: So what did you start to notice? Like, what is it? Like, what are the effects?
The Homelessness Crisis in Los Angeles
ANA KASPARIAN: Well, I started noticing that homelessness really exploded in Los Angeles. Like, it’s always been a problem in L.A. But it now touches every square mile of that county. And it’s just gotten – during COVID it was unbelievably bad, and I just felt like it was inhumane seeing what was going on.
And it wasn’t just that there were a lot of homeless people. It was that there were a lot of homeless people with severe mental health issues.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.
ANA KASPARIAN: And they can’t make decisions for themselves. They’re literally – I can’t tell you how many times on my way to work on the freeway, I almost hit a mentally ill homeless person who’s on the freeway.
TUCKER CARLSON: 405.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yes. Yes. And I can’t imagine what I would go through for the rest of my life if I ever hit someone with my car, you know? But why are we living in a society that thinks that this is okay? This is not okay. This is not okay.
The drug addiction – not just in L.A., all across the country – has there been any effort to do anything about this?
TUCKER CARLSON: Zero. Zero.
ANA KASPARIAN: And it makes me really angry.
TUCKER CARLSON: Sacklers are still billionaires.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yep, exactly. And it’s just – I find it to be – you want to talk about treason? Politicians who let this kind of stuff happen to the Americans they’re supposed to represent. And people mistake that as me being anti-homeless. No, no, the people who defend what’s happening right now, they’re anti-homeless.
Seven people died of drug overdose on the same corner near where I live in a two week span. Seven people, same corner. That wasn’t a big scandal. The city council member who represents my district wasn’t asked about it. She didn’t have to defend herself.
She’s one of these city council members who keeps voting on the dumbest policies that do nothing to actually help these people, but somehow justifies the continuation of the same failed policies that have led to all of these overdose deaths. All of these people with mental health issues not getting the health that they need. It’s awful. The whole situation is awful.
The Transformation of Los Angeles
TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, I lived in L.A. as a child. I’ve worked there on and off my whole life. I really love Los Angeles, I’ll admit that. I just love it. It’s just a truly American city, the architecture is beautiful, unique to L.A., or was. It’s just an amazing – it’s what an ambitious, hopeful, affluent country builds when they get to the end of the continent. It’s like, “Wow, there’s nowhere else to go, let’s build something amazing.”
And they built Los Angeles and I’ve always loved it in my heart. So I go back there, I’m going back next month, and I’m shocked by it. I can’t even believe it. The encampment outside the veterans building in Brentwood. I’m like, what is going on here? And no one ever says anything. Well, but I don’t live there. You tell me. Do people talk about this a lot?
ANA KASPARIAN: They talk about it privately, but it’s really interesting because while there’s this openness in regard to the failed policies in private discussions, no one wants to say anything publicly because you’ll get the kind of treatment I’ve gotten.
TUCKER CARLSON: The people are dying on the street. Seven people at one intersection. Seven people. Americans. And that’s verboten to talk about. How? Why?
ANA KASPARIAN: “Oh, you’re stigmatizing your unhoused neighbors.” I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that statement. “You’re stigmatizing your…” It’s like, no, they’re dead.
TUCKER CARLSON: And I feel bad about it.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, no, I’m stigmatizing the very politicians who think that this situation is okay. The same politicians who took our tax dollars – 24 billion worth of California’s taxpayer money, okay – squandered it by funneling it to these NGOs and nonprofits that are run by their friends. Of course they fattened up their pockets. They didn’t do anything to actually help those people. Nothing.
Private vs. Public Conversations
TUCKER CARLSON: So when you say that at dinner…
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah.
TUCKER CARLSON: What’s that like?
ANA KASPARIAN: I mean, again, I don’t have dinner with idiots, okay? So I’m not going to have dinner with someone who’s like, “No, I think we should keep stealing money from taxpayers in the highest tax state in the country.” I’m not interested in that.
But when I do have dinner with my friends or with acquaintances, or even people that I just met, but for whatever reason, our paths crossed and we’re having dinner, they all agree with me. You know, most people agree with me. And I don’t think what I’m saying is at all offensive, which is why I keep saying it.
I’m not going to stop saying it just because some idiots are going to try to smear me for doing it. No, I don’t care. These issues go way beyond me. You get what I’m saying?
TUCKER CARLSON: Well, not only is it not offensive, it’s pro-life in the truest sense. It’s pro-human dignity. You don’t want seven people to die in an intersection. You’re shocked.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah.
TUCKER CARLSON: And horrified and saddened by it. That’s not shameful. That’s evidence of decency and compassion. I don’t understand how that just got inverted.
The Current Approach vs. Past Policies
ANA KASPARIAN: You know, I don’t want to go back to the days where we were criminalizing people who were suffering from drug addiction.
TUCKER CARLSON: Right.
ANA KASPARIAN: But what we’re doing now is, I think, far worse.
TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, of course it is.
ANA KASPARIAN: You know, because at least if someone was using publicly, which, by the way, right now happens all the time – you see people, it’s really devastating. You see people smoking meth publicly. You see people… Do you know what the fentanyl lean is?
TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, I’ve seen.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. It’s all over Ventura Boulevard at night. And it’s… I don’t know.
TUCKER CARLSON: You describe it for people who don’t know what you’re talking about.
ANA KASPARIAN: It’s basically fentanyl. I guess it does something to your body where after you take it, if you see someone who’s literally standing, but they’re hunched over, like folded over.
TUCKER CARLSON: Like a scarecrow.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, exactly. They’re on fentanyl. That’s what fentanyl does to their body. And I never saw that once until recently. And now it’s just all over Ventura Boulevard in the San Fernando Valley at night, specifically. You don’t see it in the daytime.
And it’s the most heartbreaking thing ever. These people are – they’re dying. Very likely they’re going to die.
TUCKER CARLSON: Children.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. Yeah. And no one cares. No one cares. I can’t tell you how many times people just – you’ll see videos of this online. People will have to walk over a guy who looks like he might be dead sleeping on the sidewalk. You know, it’s made us almost numb because it’s so much of our lives now. It’s a regular occurrence. So when it’s a regular occurrence, it…
TUCKER CARLSON: Becomes normalized and it degrades everyone.
ANA KASPARIAN: Exactly. And I’m worried that since it’s so normalized, nothing’s going to be done about it. And I just find it immoral and I find that it’s wrong. And I’m disgusted with our politicians.
Beyond Partisan Politics
TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t think I could have put it better. Every word you said, I agree with passionately. And I don’t know how this wound up a partisan issue at all.
ANA KASPARIAN: And it’s – I think it’s because it’s a Trump era.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.
ANA KASPARIAN: Trump offends the sensitivities and sensibilities of self-identified liberal Democrats so much that they think they have to automatically take the opposite stance of what a conservative would say or what a Trump supporter would say. But that’s why I want people to start talking again.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.
ANA KASPARIAN: And not make Donald Trump the nucleus of our politics. Because I think that, you know, again, on a lot of the important issues, there’s a lot of agreement among voters. They just have to allow themselves to think for themselves.
TUCKER CARLSON: I would say the most important issues. I mean, if you’ve got seven people dying in one intersection in Los Angeles, you’re not going to tell me that Iran is a greater threat to my country than that.
ANA KASPARIAN: Exactly.
TUCKER CARLSON: I can’t think of a greater threat to my country than that, actually. And so, and I don’t have any idea why that’s partisan. I’m interested in the governor. I know the governor of the state. He’s got some – I know Gavin Newsom. He’s got some talent, I think, and charming for sure. But what is going on? Is he aware of… I’ve asked him and I…
ANA KASPARIAN: You really find him charming?
TUCKER CARLSON: Well, in a kind of reptilian way. I mean, charming in the sense that his whole life is devoted to winning people over.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yes.
TUCKER CARLSON: Kind of like Bill Clinton was. And I think he’s good at it. But I also think someone said to me the other day, “Newsom could pass a lie detector test on saying anything.” Like, there’s a coldness inside, that he’s a sociopath.
Gavin Newsom: A Critical Assessment
ANA KASPARIAN: I think he’s a snake oil salesman. I think he’s a liar, and I think that he destroyed the state of California, full stop. I’ve got no love for Gavin Newsom. I think that people tend to fall for appearances. And he’s – for whatever reason, people think that he’s attractive or something. I don’t find him attractive because I know who he is and what he’s done.
He has shafted Californians who have lost everything in wildfires. The fire in Paradise, California was absolutely devastating. An entire community burnt down as the result of PG&E – Pacific Gas and Electric, that’s the utility company – refusing to upgrade their aging equipment. Their equipment is over a hundred years old.
And so what started that fire was this metal hook that had eroded to the point where it broke. Power lines come crashing down onto dry brush. It sparks a fire and destroys an entire community. Okay, so you would want PG&E to suffer some consequences for that, right?
TUCKER CARLSON: I think.
ANA KASPARIAN: Well, Newsom bailed them out because it’s one of his biggest donors. He recently, in an interview – I can’t remember, he’s been doing these podcast interviews to kind of rebrand himself as sort of a common sense guy.
TUCKER CARLSON: I’ve turned it down.
The Cost of Authenticity in Politics
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, don’t fall for it because it’s total BS. But, you know, he said something along the lines of, “Oh, you know, I take personal accountability. I made a big mistake by getting caught.” You know, I was at the French Laundry. It’s like some ritzy, fancy restaurant. During COVID after I told Californians, you know, “Don’t get together with family members during the holidays. It’s very dangerous.” Whatever.
He said that he was having dinner with friends. It was his friend’s birthday. No, no, he was having dinner with his donors. So even in the context where he’s pretending to take accountability, he’s lying straight to everyone’s face. And I can’t stand it. I really can’t.
I want authenticity. I want real authenticity. I want real accountability. I want politicians who are willing to see that the policies they advocated for aren’t working quite as they intended, and they’re willing to recalibrate, admit that maybe they got something wrong. Of course I want humility. I want this country to improve for the people in this country.
And unless we are willing to be honest, unless we’re willing to tell the people trying to smear us, to silence us that they can F off, nothing’s going to improve. Everything’s going to keep going down. Everything is going to continue devolving. In my lifetime, this country has only gotten worse, not better. And it’s going to keep going in that direction. And I want that paradigm to shift. I want it to change.
TUCKER CARLSON: Why do people disagree with that, do you think?
The Psychology of Political Division
ANA KASPARIAN: I don’t know. I really… I think there’s something psychological about it. I think that we’ve been conditioned to think of politics as black and white, good and bad, but I think it’s more complicated than that. I think most Americans are good people who want good things for everyone. But I think the media kind of conditions us to hate the other side, whatever the other side really is.
You know, I certainly had those feelings, and things are different today compared to when I became politicized during the Bush era.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.
ANA KASPARIAN: I feel like during the Bush era, it was a little easier to see good and bad. Right. So, for instance, even among Republican voters, I think people had woken up to the fact that the neoconservatives had dragged us into wars that we shouldn’t have been fighting, that a lot of people, Americans and civilians in these countries who are invading were suffering as a result of this ideology.
But things have gotten a little more fractured, I think, within the parties. There’s like, multiple parties. You get what I’m saying?
TUCKER CARLSON: I do.
ANA KASPARIAN: But when it comes to the two establishments, the Democratic establishment, the Republican establishment, there’s a lot of similarities between the two.
TUCKER CARLSON: They’re in alignment.
ANA KASPARIAN: Exactly. On the big issues that matter.
TUCKER CARLSON: War and the economy.
ANA KASPARIAN: War and the economy.
TUCKER CARLSON: Biggest issues.
ANA KASPARIAN: 100%. They love to distract us with…
TUCKER CARLSON: Shiny things, have a race war.
ANA KASPARIAN: 100%. All these social issues, by the way, social issues are important. I’m not minimizing them, but the way that they’re framed by the establishment, I think is interesting because it’s intentionally meant to get us to fight each other constantly.
Of course, instead of considering what the big issues are and how we might actually agree on those big issues, what we can do to work together to, again, apply pressure to politicians to demand that they represent us instead of their donors, instead of moneyed interests, instead of a foreign government.
So I think people are waking up for the first time. I’m a little bit excited because, you know, the kind of speech that you gave wouldn’t have happened five years ago. No, 10 years ago.
On Political Ambition and Authenticity
TUCKER CARLSON: No, I think that’s right. And I wouldn’t have though. I’m just struck by how normal and non-threatening and non-hateful and just basic most people’s views are, including mine. I don’t have any complicated views about anything. I’m not a very deep person at all.
And I don’t know why we’ve all internalized this shame that some things must not be said. And it’s like why? I don’t hate anybody. And in fact I’m on guard against that. I refuse to because of my religious beliefs. It’s like I’m not hating anybody, period. But I’m also not going to be shamed into ignoring obvious stuff.
ANA KASPARIAN: Can I ask you something? So I heard that speech and by the time I finished listening to it, I thought to myself, “He’s going to run for president.” That was a presidential speech.
TUCKER CARLSON: Really?
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah.
TUCKER CARLSON: No, that’s literally the last thing on my mind. I would never do that. No, I mean unless I was told by a higher power or something. But, no, I don’t think I’m suited for that. Of course I don’t want that. I have a lot of happiness and balance in my life. I have a huge family. I’m the oldest male in that family. So I feel like I have a lot of things I’m paying attention to. I have dogs who I really love.
So, no, nothing about that is appealing at all. And I would never… I’ve never had any political ambition of any kind, and I have even less now. I mean, I’ve known a lot of people who’ve had that job, and it’s just really hard.
ANA KASPARIAN: Oh, I would never want… No, I would never want it. Are you kidding me? No.
TUCKER CARLSON: And also, the idea that out of 350 million people, I’m the most qualified to lead.
ANA KASPARIAN: Well, there’s plenty of people who think that.
TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t think that.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. Like Ted Cruz thinks that.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. Well, exactly. And it’s just sad. And they’re compensating for something, some of them. I guess I’m not going to be mean, but I don’t… I’m not compensating for anything. So I have no interest.
The Media’s Role and Personal Consequences
But here’s my question. So you said the media are a huge part of this, which is undoubtedly true. I’ve been in the media for 35 years. I know everyone in the media pretty much. There are some… Mostly, they’re not evil. They’re just kind of dumb. Okay. There are some evil people. I could name them. Like Joe Scarborough or something. You know, obviously really bad, but most people are not. But they go along with this. And the question is why?
And one of the reasons is because they don’t want to alienate their audiences. You’ve been… You are on one of the biggest, maybe the biggest, certainly one of the biggest, liberal podcasts, progressive podcasts, the Young Turks. You’ve been there for almost 20 years. I was amazed to find that out last night at dinner.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah.
TUCKER CARLSON: 18 years.
ANA KASPARIAN: 18 years.
TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know how old you are, but I was shocked by that. But it’s one of the biggest. And you are one of the biggest. And maybe our audience doesn’t know this because they don’t watch liberal podcasts, but you’re one of the biggest. So you start saying stuff like this, you’re going to lose audience. You’re going to lose money. Like, actual money.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yep.
TUCKER CARLSON: Has that happened? Do you worry about that happening?
Standing by Principles Despite the Cost
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, that’s happened. Let me just say that for whatever anyone might think about Cenk Uygur, who’s the founder and CEO of the Young Turks. You know, he’s sometimes brash, combative, loud, and that turns people off. And I get that they might not agree with his politics, but I just want to talk about who he is as a person.
Because if it weren’t for Cenk, I wouldn’t have the confidence to publicly admit I’m wrong or the confidence to be genuine and honest about what I really think. Because he provides a platform for you to actually say what you think and not get punished for it if it hurts the business. And it did hurt the business. Yeah. So we lost a portion of our audience, for sure.
TUCKER CARLSON: Based on what you said.
ANA KASPARIAN: Based on what I said.
TUCKER CARLSON: And more importantly, what did you say that alienated people?
The Glenn Beck Controversy
ANA KASPARIAN: I mean, okay, I would say that the straw that broke the camel’s back was I agreed to go talk to Glenn Beck. He invited me to go on his podcast. You know, I obviously have disagreements with Glenn Beck, but I was actually shocked at how much we agreed on. You know, we talked about war. We talked about all sorts of things, and there were areas of agreement. It was a pleasant conversation, but I didn’t capitulate my values at all.
Just because I’m talking to him doesn’t mean I’ve done anything wrong. My views are my views. His views are his views. We had a conversation. Well, I come home thinking nothing of it, and one of our employees, someone who’s a contributor to TYT or was a contributor to TYT, decided to take that as an opportunity to make a big spectacle about the fact that he’s quitting because I decided to speak to Glenn Beck, who’s a threat to black bodies or something. I don’t know, but he just… It was…
TUCKER CARLSON: Is Glenn Beck a threat to black bodies?
ANA KASPARIAN: I have no idea. Is he? I mean, I didn’t get that. I don’t think Glenn Beck’s much of a threat to anyone, to be honest with you. He might have some ideas people don’t like, but okay.
TUCKER CARLSON: But it was nothing that you specifically said. It wasn’t like…
ANA KASPARIAN: No. Nothing that I said. I mean, no one was citing anything I said during that interview that upset them, that was so offensive that it was worthy of publicly condemning me and making a big spectacle about how “I can’t work here because of Ana. And she spoke to this dangerous, dangerous man.”
TUCKER CARLSON: Did Beck say anything so over the top that you were supposed to respond to it or something?
ANA KASPARIAN: No, I… No. I mean, Glenn Beck…
TUCKER CARLSON: So pretty moderate guy.
ANA KASPARIAN: I mean, I don’t… I mean, he might have some views that aren’t moderate, but we didn’t talk about any of those things. The conversation was really not offensive at all, in my opinion.
TUCKER CARLSON: But they didn’t cite anything. He didn’t endorse Hitler or anything.
ANA KASPARIAN: It was just the fact that I spoke to him. But, you know, unfortunately, when you have someone make a public spectacle about quitting and making it seem as though I had done something so wrong, it signaled to a portion of our audience, “Oh, maybe Ana isn’t who she says she is. Maybe Ana is a secret far-right winger or Nazi or…” I don’t know.
TUCKER CARLSON: How long had you been at the show at this point?
ANA KASPARIAN: 17 and a half years.
TUCKER CARLSON: That’s deep cover. So you’ve been a secret Nazi for 17 and a half years?
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, I’m really good at…
TUCKER CARLSON: You’re playing the long game, baby.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. Yeah. But…
TUCKER CARLSON: So I’m sorry to… Let me…
Building TYT from the Ground Up
ANA KASPARIAN: Let me just say this. I started working, as you mentioned, I’ve been there for 18 years. Started working there in 2007. When TYT was basically a startup that no one knew about. The revenue for TYT at the time came from Air America. Air America had gone bankrupt a few months after I started working for them.
And Cenk Uygur is amazing because he’s like, “I’m going to make it work. I’m going to find a way to keep this company afloat.” And he did, to his credit. But I can’t even explain to you how much of a grind it was building TYT. It was a grind. Long hours, blood, sweat and tears. But we believed in it and we loved it. And I actually have great memories of those years. We barely made any money at all, but we believed in what we were doing and there was something really exciting about that.
I went through all that. I helped build what TYT is today. And the audacity, the audacity of anyone coming in as a contributor or anything else to tell me who I can and can’t talk to is offensive. That’s offensive. I earned this. You’re not going to come into my house and tell me what my beliefs should be, who I should talk to. F off. Good riddance. Go. I’m not going to be censored by anyone. Not my audience, no one on the right. I don’t care.
Standing by Principles
TUCKER CARLSON: So sometimes when people sell products on TV. “I love this product. I use this product.” There’s the question in the mind of the viewer. Does this guy really use the product? Does he really love the product? Would he keep the product at home? Ask my dogs. Yes.
Now we are in a garage. I’m not going to tell you where it is because again, this is prepping. But this is my garage. There’s a gun safe. And this is a part of my stockpile of Ready Hour. Completely real. The second I put it here, the second Ready Hour sent it to me, I felt peace of mind. Because no matter what happens, we’re not going hungry in my house. I moved a lot of fishing gear out of the way to keep it in my garage. And ever since it’s been here, I have felt the peace of mind that comes from knowing my family’s not going hungry no matter what. Last country supply.com lastcountrysupply.com it can be in your garage along with the peace of mind that comes with having it.
I have a nephew who loves you and he’s always “Uncle Tucker. You got to interview this chick. She’s amazing” and I’m so glad. Sorry, excuse me. It just makes me laugh. I mean, I just love what you’re saying, of course, but you also are making a point about the guy you work with. You start the company known as Company who even after some of your audience bolted.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah.
TUCKER CARLSON: Over this. He didn’t call you in and say knock it off.
ANA KASPARIAN: No, never, never. That’s not who Cenk is. And by the way, I mean he’s had hosts on our network who he vehemently disagrees with and he’s had other hosts come in and demand that those hosts get fired because of what they’re saying. “Oh, it’s offensive.” And Cenk’s like, “No, we don’t do that here.”
And I think what informs Cenk’s behavior, honestly is the fact that at one time he was a self identified Republican. This is when he was in college and stuff.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.
ANA KASPARIAN: And he and I have a lot of these heart to hearts because I have these days when I am down about everything that’s transpired because I do feel like it’s unfair to paint me in a certain light just because you don’t like the people I’m talking to. But whenever I need a little bit of a pep talk, he’ll mention what it was like as a college Republican and he’s like, “Anna, it was unbearable because they wouldn’t let me talk in class. They would do everything possible to prevent me from being able to speak.”
TUCKER CARLSON: Who’s they?
ANA KASPARIAN: Other students or professors who didn’t like his point of view.
TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, liberals.
ANA KASPARIAN: Liberals, yeah. So that really, really frustrated him. And so now as the CEO of the Young Turks, he’s not going to turn around and censor other hosts because he disagrees with them.
TUCKER CARLSON: A lot of people do, though.
ANA KASPARIAN: A lot of people do. But to his credit, he doesn’t. And that’s why I’ve been there for 18 years. There have been other opportunities to make a… I love when people call me a grifter. I could have been a millionaire by now. I’m not a millionaire because I want to speak my mind. And TYT has been the only place that’s allowed me to do it.
The Challenge of Audience Loyalty
TUCKER CARLSON: Good for you. Yeah, I don’t think… I mean, most people don’t host shows, so they don’t know the feeling. I have hosted shows, so I do know the feeling. If your audience starts to move out from under you, boy, that is… because that’s your strength, that’s your core, that’s your revenue, of course. But more than that, that’s your moral backing. You know, they may not like what I’m saying, but my people do, my audience does. And so if they bolt in meaningful numbers, boy, there’s nothing scarier. I mean, I get it.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, it is scary. I’m not going to lie about that. I mean, being scared didn’t deter me, but I was more concerned about what it was going to do to the company overall. Because if things were bad enough and we didn’t have enough revenue to keep every employee, people are going to get fired or laid off. And I wouldn’t… I would really struggle with the guilt. I would feel responsible for that.
And so I’m glad that that didn’t happen. And we’re currently, we’re rebuilding and it’s a dream come true for me because I want to build an audience of open minded people who aren’t going to run for the hills the second they hear a point that they disagree with.
TUCKER CARLSON: Or that they haven’t heard before.
ANA KASPARIAN: Or that they haven’t heard before. Exactly. Yeah.
TUCKER CARLSON: Because there’s, I think there’s a lot of that where if, you know, you get past the initial shock… you’ll say something like, well, first of all, you’re not allowed to say that. Second, I’ve never heard anybody say that, and I kind of hate you for saying something new, but I do think that wears off after a moment, and people are like, well, actually, is that crazy? Is that hateful? I don’t think it is. And you can kind of convince them.
Breaking Free from Ideological Prison
ANA KASPARIAN: After that, you have a decision to make. You can either build a niche audience, and I think that’s the worst option, because a niche audience wants to be catered to, and you have to be very careful to follow a very specific script. I’m not interested in that. And I think that I personally went through an era of being a little bit radicalized on the left, and I regret that because I unwittingly did build a bit of a niche audience. But those folks…
TUCKER CARLSON: What do you mean, radicalized?
ANA KASPARIAN: I totally bought the narrative that everyone on the right’s racist, everyone on the right is greedy, that kind of stuff.
TUCKER CARLSON: So Trump term one when everyone just got hysterical about Trump.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yes.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, I get it.
ANA KASPARIAN: That was the era that I’m not proud of, and I was basically building my own prison, and I didn’t realize it. And what I mean by that is, once you have a niche audience, you’re not allowed to deviate from a very specific and narrow ideology. And I don’t want that. I’m not an ideologue. I’m willing to admit when I’m wrong. I’m willing to recalibrate on policy if I see it implemented and it’s not working correctly. I ultimately just want truth. I want justice, and I want a country that represents its people. That’s what I want. That’s my core.
The Real Divide in America
TUCKER CARLSON: Do you feel like it is bridgeable? There’s so much anger. And by the way, I do think the immigration thing and the crime thing sort of obscure it. The real fight is between educated whites. They’re the ones who hate… really hate each other, really. I think that.
ANA KASPARIAN: Tell me more about that.
TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I think it’s… I mean, I just know from my own experience I often say this, but, you know, they called me a racist for many, many years. And I would always say if I was racist, I would just admit it, because there are worse things, but I’m not. And I would get so hassled always by the same demographic, and I would always say to my wife, you know, every… No black person’s ever yelled at me. In fact, I’ve been hugged by a lot of black people. It’s just a fact. I’m sorry, it’s just true. And they don’t seem to think I’m a racist.
But it’s always middle aged white women who are yelling at me at Logan Airport. And what is that? No, I’m not whining. I mean, I don’t really care, but it’s just interesting. And so I think it’s almost like fratricidal. It’s professional class whites who read the New Yorker, read the New York Times… they’re truly angry at each other.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. Yeah.
TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know. I’ve just noticed this.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. I mean, it’s… I think it’s just propaganda. And this thought that certain things are way worse than they really are or that their perceived threats, I think, aren’t real to the extent that they think it’s real. And by speaking out and by confronting you and by doing what you’re referring to, I think they get a sense of “I’m doing something about it,” you know?
TUCKER CARLSON: No, I get it. I’m not even attacking them. It’s just interesting to me, the… I mean, because it’s clear, it’s totally real in their minds.
ANA KASPARIAN: It is, of course, not just performative.
TUCKER CARLSON: It’s like I felt rage before, so… And as you so eloquently described, that rage obscures and I think maybe it’s designed to obscure the reality of physical degradation all around us.
ANA KASPARIAN: All around us.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah.
TUCKER CARLSON: So. And I think that is kind of the point. I think it is, to some extent intentional. But since you do live in that world and have for so long, as rationally as you can, clinically as you can, can you explain what they’re worried about?
Legitimate Concerns About Power
ANA KASPARIAN: Well, I mean, I think that their heart is in the right place.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, yeah. I’m not… I’m giving them the presumption of good faith, for sure. I just want to know, when some rich lady yells at me in the ski lift line, she thinks I’m racist. I know they always say that. But then there’s also… there’s a fascist takeover imminent. Is that part of it or what is…
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, well, I mean, okay, let’s talk about the fascist takeover because there is a part of me that’s a little bit worried about that.
TUCKER CARLSON: I am too.
ANA KASPARIAN: Okay.
TUCKER CARLSON: Too. Okay, so not just part of me, a lot of me.
ANA KASPARIAN: And look, I don’t know what’s in those women’s heads. So I just don’t understand them. So I feel weird talking about what they’re thinking.
TUCKER CARLSON: And every person should be worried about the centralization of power and the use of technology to strip basic rights from citizens.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, everybody… the Palantir stuff concerns me a little bit, you know, anytime.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. I mean, the technology, not just Palantir, but all the emerging technology, supercomputing, AI, all of this stuff, facial recognition… it could be used to enslave the population totally, really easily.
ANA KASPARIAN: Totally. Yeah.
TUCKER CARLSON: So I don’t know why. I mean, everyone should be freaked out about that.
ANA KASPARIAN: Be worried about that. Definitely. I’m also a little bit worried about… And I don’t know how large this group of people in America happens to be, but you’re hearing from them more and more this idea that no, we need to move toward a post liberal and post liberal democracy. You know what I’m saying? A rejection of the democratic process overall. Curtis Yarvin is one of the figures who’s been kind of preaching about this. He sounds really dumb, so I don’t know how seriously people really take him, but he purports to want a monarchy in this country, which sounds insane.
TUCKER CARLSON: I… Look, I’m opposed to monarchy. And the truth, however, is that the trends you’re describing have totally discredited liberal democracy. That’s my fear. And I think maybe it’s intentional.
ANA KASPARIAN: Oh, for sure it’s intentional.
The Threat of Authoritarianism
TUCKER CARLSON: So chaotic that we beg for a dictator. I kind of feel like that’s happening.
ANA KASPARIAN: I hope people aren’t begging for a dictator because you don’t like the fact that the government isn’t really representing your interests right now. Get a load of what it’s going to be like to live under a dictator where you have no say at all.
TUCKER CARLSON: No, no, I’m talking more about like quality of life questions, like if there are home invasions going on and the homeowner doesn’t have any expectation the cops are going to save them. That kind of stuff. That’s not theoretical. That induces panic.
ANA KASPARIAN: True. Yeah.
TUCKER CARLSON: It makes me uncomfortable even thinking about it, so if you have a lot more of that, people were like, “I don’t really give a damn about voting. What I care about is my kids not being killed.”
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, actually you make a really good point. Which is why it’s so important for Americans who value liberal democracy to really start thinking seriously about saving it.
TUCKER CARLSON: Right. Exactly.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. Yeah, that’s what I want.
TUCKER CARLSON: But don’t you feel like when people are under – if you were on a plane flying across the Pacific that dropped 20,000 feet in a minute and you’re saying your prayers, maybe you’re an atheist, you’re saying prayers anyway, couldn’t control yourself – what would you be willing to do or give up in exchange for not dying?
In other words, if you’re totally panicked, you’re in free fall in a commercial airliner. “God, I will do anything.” That’s kind of what is happening with crime, I think.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, yeah. And not just crime.
TUCKER CARLSON: Not just crime, yeah.
Government Ignoring Public Will
ANA KASPARIAN: I mean, so many issues. It is a problem when most Americans agree on something and our politicians know it, but they do the opposite anyway. And I’ve been increasingly angry with the fact that I feel that the interests of Americans and how they feel about going to war with Iran, for instance – most Americans do not want to go to war with Iran and it didn’t matter.
The United States bombed Iran’s nuclear sites on behalf of Israel anyway, which could have led to a full blown hot war. It didn’t because of Iran having restraint. But we’re not done yet.
TUCKER CARLSON: And so don’t you feel ashamed that it didn’t lead to nuclear war? This is the new line. I know you are wrong. You’re an idiot.
ANA KASPARIAN: That’s by the way, that line is stupid.
TUCKER CARLSON: Dare you worry about that?
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, we’re not, by the way, it’s not over yet. And don’t get too cocky for the people making that point. Don’t get too cocky.
TUCKER CARLSON: But why is it shameful to worry about a nuclear war or worry about a World War Three? Why is that? It’s being held up by the normal tiny brain people as like, evidence that you’re just a ridiculous person. “Your prediction was wrong.”
ANA KASPARIAN: Right? Right.
TUCKER CARLSON: “Well, I mean, didn’t have a nuclear war. Shut up.”
ANA KASPARIAN: Well, maybe those folks have a point. Maybe we’re the baddies. Maybe we should be more concerned about profits for bomb makers and weapons manufacturers and private contractors and the mercenaries that are currently working over in Gaza to shoot and kill people as they’re waiting for humanitarian aid.
The Gaza Situation
TUCKER CARLSON: So how does that – it does feel like I’ve spent 35 years not talking about that topic because one, I don’t really have on a native level, super strong views about it. It’s not my country. I wish everyone well in every country and I mean that.
However, it just got so in my face that I had to say four things about it for which I’ve been, spent the rest of my life trying to deal with that, the effects of being called those names. But I feel like all of a sudden, people you would not expect to weigh in. And it’s like, “Actually, this is too much.”
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. And I love it. I’m glad that that’s happening.
TUCKER CARLSON: And I hope you feel that there’s been a change.
ANA KASPARIAN: I do feel it. I mean, definitely, if it were the Bush years and this whole scenario were playing out during those years, the kinds of things I’ve been hearing people say publicly, I would not have heard.
But I think what’s happening this time around is you really can’t deny what you’re seeing on the ground in Gaza. You can’t deny what’s happening in the West Bank, not just in regard to Palestinians, Palestinian Muslims, but also Palestinian Christians. You can’t deny the fact that that one and only Catholic church in Gaza was bombed, was attacked. You can’t deny the fact that churches have been targeted in the West Bank as well.
People can lie to us as much as they want, but the videos are out there.
TUCKER CARLSON: If you’ve got munitions, laser guided munitions that are so sophisticated that they can take out a guy in an SUV from 30,000 feet. How do you blow up a church with a giant cross on top?
ANA KASPARIAN: “It was just an accident, Tucker. It was an accident.”
TUCKER CARLSON: It’s not the first church.
ANA KASPARIAN: No, it’s not. And it wasn’t an accident. It wasn’t an accident.
TUCKER CARLSON: But how could – what is the answer? Can anyone get an answer?
The Greater Israel Project
ANA KASPARIAN: I know the answer. Israel wants a Jewish state and they want to expand. They have something known as the Greater Israel Project. They intend to annex the whole of the West Bank. In fact, Miriam Adelson legally bribed Donald Trump to ensure that that happens. And Israel announced that that’s what they’re going to do, and they’re doing it.
When it comes to Gaza, I mean, Hamas is so dumb because the atrocities they committed on October 7th gave Netanyahu and the Israeli government the perfect excuse to essentially do what they’ve always wanted to do, which is take that land. They’re going to take that land. That’s what they want.
They’re going to ethnically cleanse whatever remains of the Palestinian people. They’re going to force neighboring countries probably to absorb 2 million people. And then at the same time, they’re going to have settlers move on in, rebuild Gaza. Jared Kushner, by the way, soon after October 7th happened was salivating on camera about how that’s prime real estate. It’s disgusting.
TUCKER CARLSON: But anyway, how can you move 2 million people right now?
ANA KASPARIAN: Well, there was a story published this week, I believe it was in the New York Times, where Netanyahu and the Israeli government was in talks with our government in regard to getting aid from the United States in moving Palestinians out of Gaza. So when they bomb the church, it’s because they don’t want the church. That land is supposed to be part of the Jewish state.
TUCKER CARLSON: You’re not allowed to use my tax dollars to bomb churches.
ANA KASPARIAN: Well, that’s what they’re doing.
Christian Leaders’ Response
TUCKER CARLSON: I’ll put up with a lot of stuff, but I think that’s – and I don’t, I’ve said this a hundred times. Let me say it again. I don’t understand how any Christian leader in the United States can sit by and not say something about that.
And Mike Huckabee, who has been a pretty slavish devotee of the state of Israel, and I don’t mean that as a compliment, he’s a very nice man, but I disagree with him strongly. Even Mike Huckabee came out and said, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah, you can’t kill Christians.”
ANA KASPARIAN: And American citizens.
TUCKER CARLSON: And American citizens. But I don’t understand why that’s not – I mean, if that’s not a red line, then there’s no red line.
ANA KASPARIAN: I mean, I think it should definitely be a red line. But let me just say Mike Huckabee made a statement and that’s nice. It’s more than Biden was willing to do. Talk is cheap. Are you going to cut funding? Are you going to stop sending over the 2,000 pound bombs that are destroying people’s homes, universities, churches, refugee camps, hospitals?
I mean, Gaza’s leveled. Deir al-Balah is like the last remaining portion of Gaza that still has some structures that people can live in and they’re currently doing a ground invasion there. They got to destroy it, of course. I mean, it’s so obvious what’s happening and it’s so unjust.
And this is the area where, what democracy? I have no power. The government’s going to take part of my earnings that I worked really hard for not to help my fellow American citizens who might need health care, who might have fallen on hard times and can’t feed their families and need help with food assistance. It’s not going to go to them. It’s going to go toward the bombs that are terrorizing people in Gaza, the West Bank, by the way, it’s going to expand further than that.
Syria and Regional Expansion
I mean, they’ve already annexed part of Syria. The Syria war, that proxy war, it was a proxy war for a reason. Turkey wanted to have influence and control over the area where the Kurds are at. Obviously Israel wanted to annex portions of it and they’ve been doing it ever since Assad fell.
And you have a former Al Qaeda leader as the current leader of Syria who’s trying to capitulate to Israel. But obviously it’s not good enough because Israel’s still bombing the crap out of Syria. It’s unbelievable.
I have no ability to change it. It seems like the electorate in this country have no ability to change it because it doesn’t matter which party you vote for, whether it’s a Democratic presidential candidate or Republican presidential candidate, they’re going to get elected and they’re going to get dog walked by whoever the Prime Minister of Israel is at the time.
The Al Qaeda Contradiction
TUCKER CARLSON: How do we wind up supporting an Al Qaeda leader? I thought we were anti Al Qaeda.
ANA KASPARIAN: I thought so too. I don’t know, it makes no sense to me. But I mean this is seen throughout American history in regard to our foreign policy. I mean we will fund the Taliban, we’ll give them weapons to fight the communists, we want to avoid communism and then we turn on them for obvious reasons after what happened on 9/11. But I mean I think it’s not…
TUCKER CARLSON: We were told 9/11 was done by Al Qaeda. So we’ve got to be pretty – I mean that wasn’t that long ago. We’ve got to be pretty anti Al Qaeda because like if they actually killed 3,000 Americans on 9/11, which everyone says they did, and I’m willing to believe that, then how in the world can we let any Al Qaeda even exist?
ANA KASPARIAN: Wouldn’t you venture to say it’s required to ask these questions if you want to be a journalist?
TUCKER CARLSON: I would say, and I would also say, the serious situation. I was always opposed to what we were doing in Syria. I understood exactly why we were doing it. We ended up killing or abetting in the murder of an awful lot of religious minorities, Alawites, a lot of Christians and destroying the country. And I was attacked for, “you’re an Assad apologist” or whatever. But I don’t know anything about Assad.
ANA KASPARIAN: So are they Al Qaeda apologists?
TUCKER CARLSON: Well, that’s the thing. And we’ve gotten to a place now where it’s really clear that the 3,000 American lives they say were lost on September 11th due to Al Qaeda are less important than whatever political or geopolitical consideration is driving our Syria policy.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. And it makes me sick.
TUCKER CARLSON: So that’s about – that’s treason, of course. But it’s more than that. That’s like a profound moral crime. And it’s also a middle finger in the face of every American.
ANA KASPARIAN: Definitely. Yeah.
TUCKER CARLSON: There’s one thing we could expect our foreign policy would stay consistent on is we’re anti Al Qaeda because they killed 3,000 Americans.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. But I just don’t – well, I do understand our foreign policy and what drives our foreign policy. And it’s a black pill for sure.
Armenia and Azerbaijan
TUCKER CARLSON: So I’m not just asking this because you have an Armenian last name, which you do.
ANA KASPARIAN: I do, but…
TUCKER CARLSON: And I think you’re Armenian. That’s way better meaning last name. But because you did a segment on this. What is going on between Armenia, big picture and Azerbaijan?
The Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict and Armenian History
ANA KASPARIAN: Well, there was about four years ago, there was a pretty brutal war. Azerbaijan attacked the Armenians who were living in this area known as Nagorno Karabakh. Armenians call it Artsakh. And historically, Armenians have had roots there. There are ancient churches, Armenian churches there.
And that land, if you look at a map of where Nagorno Karabakh is, it’s like in the middle of Azerbaijan. Not exactly in the middle, but it’s basically like, let’s say here’s Azerbaijan, like circle, and it’s like kind of off to one side. Nagorno Karabakh is. And the reason that land was… Well, the whole of Azerbaijan was controlled by the Soviets. Right.
But during that time, Stalin essentially gave the land that makes up Nagorno Karabakh to Azerbaijan, like, promised that land to them, even though that area was populated by ethnic Armenians. And he did that. I mean, Stalin was evil in a lot of ways, but he was also very smart, which is the most dangerous combination.
TUCKER CARLSON: Very smart.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. And so he wanted both the Azeris and the Armenians to be dependent on the Soviet Union. And the way to do that is to put the ethnic Armenians smack dab in the middle of, you know, Azerbaijan.
And so it became an issue because, you know, throughout history, Armenians went to war with the Azeris in regard to controlling that land because most of the people there were Armenian. They wanted to control that land.
And so what happened four years ago in 2020 is Azerbaijan’s like, we want the Armenians out. We want to take over the land. And they went to war. Armenia is a tiny country. Russia has provided security guarantees to Armenia in the past, but unfortunately, in this case, Russia didn’t come to the defense of ethnic Armenians. They said that the, you know, security guarantees had to do with Armenia and not Nagorno Karabakh.
So a lot of Armenians died. A lot of churches, ancient churches were absolutely destroyed and bombed. And the Azeris engaged in the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Armenians in Nagorno Karabakh. They were forced out if they weren’t killed. And some of them ended up in Armenia. And Armenia, of course, is going to take them in.
But it’s been really difficult because Armenia is a tiny country. It’s a, you know, developing country. It’s landlocked, and it’s surrounded by enemies, and historically has been victimized by Turkey through the Armenian genocide. I mean, it’s been pretty devastating.
And it’s, you know, I’ve been very vocal about what’s been happening in Gaza, and Armenians have been very proud of me for that. But a few have been like, “why didn’t you speak up about Nagorno Karabakh?” I did. I did, actually, at the time, but it happened four years ago.
TUCKER CARLSON: But why aren’t the preachers talking about it? I don’t… So churches were blown up.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. And by the way, I mean, preacher, like, religious leaders have been. But American media doesn’t care about it. I mean, America doesn’t care about Armenia at all.
TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, I get it. It’s a small country. But I just… The, you know, the Armenians were persecuted precisely because they were Christians. I… That’s my read. I mean, there’s no, you know.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, they were the minority. The religious.
TUCKER CARLSON: Of course, the religious minority at the very end of the Ottoman Empire, end of the First World War, and they were murdered in enormous numbers by… By the Ottomans, using the Kurds, I think, for a lot of it. And the Kurds… We love the Kurds, but I don’t understand why.
I just see this theme. You may disagree with this, but I see a global theme where the most peaceful religion in the world is taking the most abuse and there’s the most murder of Christians. I don’t quite know what that is, and I just am amazed that nobody says anything in the United States.
Israel’s Role in the Conflict
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, I… It’s… It’s… I mean, Armenians don’t have a powerful lobby that can bribe our politicians to care about them. So what’s really depressing, though, is, you know, we provide a lot of the weapons that Israel has, and Israel sold weapons to Azerbaijan to carry out the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Armenians from Nagorno Karabakh.
TUCKER CARLSON: What?
ANA KASPARIAN: Yep. Yep.
TUCKER CARLSON: Is that confirmed?
ANA KASPARIAN: Yes, it’s confirmed. It’s absolutely confirmed.
TUCKER CARLSON: Israel sold weapons to Azerbaijan to kill the Christians.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, that’s exactly what happened.
TUCKER CARLSON: You’re sure?
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, anyone can look it up. I… And look, if I’m ever wrong, I will admit it, but this is something I’ve researched deeply. Where did Azerbaijan get his weapons from? There have been rumors that they also were sold weapons from Russia, but there was less confirmation on that. But in regard to Israel, it’s very clear, and it’s documented.
The Armenian Genocide and Diaspora
TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, I… I sense… I sense a theme, and I have a right to sense that theme, because I’m a Christian, and I’m not going to cede that right. Sorry. So the Armenians were murdered by the millions at the end of the First World War. Where… But they weren’t all killed. Where did they go?
ANA KASPARIAN: So… Oh, thank you for asking me these questions. I really appreciate it, because there’s a lot that I want to say about it. So the Armenian genocide was perpetrated by an offshoot of an organization of, like… It’s a group that basically rebelled against the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire, like, had already been persecuting Armenians. There was the Adana massacres. I mean, massacres had been happening at the hands of the Ottoman Turks.
Now, a group rose up to rebel against the Ottoman Empire, and those individuals were known as the Young Turks. We are not named after those people. Young Turks in American context mean something entirely different. It means someone who rebels against societal expectations or the establishment, and that’s what we do at our show. So that’s why Cenk named it that. I kind of wish he didn’t, because it gets confused all the time.
TUCKER CARLSON: But nonetheless, it’s kind of funny that there’s a Turk and an Armenian.
ANA KASPARIAN: And by the way, we talk about the Armenian genocide on the show all the time. I… You know, he’s Turkish, and he grew up in a certain context where you… You only get one side of the story.
TUCKER CARLSON: Of course. Yeah, we… We all have grown up in this.
ANA KASPARIAN: Exactly. But to his credit, I mean, through our very difficult conversations at times, through our debates, he eventually realized, “oh, my God, like, I was totally brainwashed. The Armenian genocide is totally real,” and we talk about it all the time on the show.
And I’m… That’s, like, probably one of my proudest accomplishments, because I could have turned my back on him, made him out to just be a terrible person who’s unworthy of me, even, like, talking to him. But instead I made a decision to try to convince him, to persuade him. And it took a while, but it worked.
And to me, seeing the humanity in someone who has, like, a fundamental disagreement, that enrages me. I think that probably out of all… All the qualities that make me human, I think that’s my best quality. My willingness to try to persuade before I write someone off is unworthy.
TUCKER CARLSON: That’s a very good quality.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. But anyway, sorry. So the Young Turks rose up to… And the whole thing about the Young Turks was they didn’t like the way Armenians were being persecuted. They wanted to provide rights to Armenians. And you can look this up. It’s in the history. Right.
But there was an offshoot of the Young Turks called the Committee of Unity and Progress, and they’re the ones who perpetrated the Armenian genocide. Okay. So that’s how it happened. 1.5 million Armenians were slaughtered. There were a lot more Armenians who were forced to march through the desert to Syria. My father was actually born in Damascus.
TUCKER CARLSON: Your father?
ANA KASPARIAN: My father, yeah. He was born in Damascus. When he was two years old, though, the family wanted to move back to the homeland. My… My grandfather really cared about that. So they moved to Armenia.
But it was difficult because at that point when the diaspora was moving back, the Armenians who never left, like, there were cultural differences. Because think about it. I mean, if you’re going to an Arab country, you take on some of their cultural practices and stuff, and then when you go back to Armenia, there’s a little bit of a disconnect, you know, always.
TUCKER CARLSON: So the prodigal son effect.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. Yeah. So, like, there was a lot of Armenians who went to Syria, Lebanon. There was a huge Armenian community in Lebanon, Iran. In fact, there’s a huge Armenian community in Iran till this day. Christian Armenians who are openly practicing their Christianity and going to church in Iran. In Iran, yeah. Yep. Yes, I have family members. And the way that Iran…
TUCKER CARLSON: Why aren’t they all genocided by Iran? I thought…
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, you would think that would happen. Right. But no, there are Armenians in… They might not like the Ayatollah, they might not like the regime, but what they respect is the fact that they’re still able to practice their religion, they’re still able to go to church. For the most part, they’re left alone.
TUCKER CARLSON: And there’s a huge Armenian population in Iran, I think.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, that’s the Armenian diaspora.
TUCKER CARLSON: And they were originally refugees from the genocide.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yes. Yeah. I love Iranian Armenians. They’re, like, among my favorite. They’re just… I don’t know, I just think that they’re actually a lot more open minded. Believe it or not, the diaspora that I come from is far more conservative and a little closed minded, you know, so.
But anyway, I, I just… Armenians have been through a lot, they really have. And they’re all over the world because of the fact they were forced out of their own country.
Armenian Success in America
TUCKER CARLSON: They’ve done so well.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, they’re hardworking people, they’re good people, very family oriented. I’m very proud of my heritage, but I’m also very proud to be an American, you know, and that’s the other thing about Armenians. They really love this country. They really do. And they feel privileged to be here. You know, if they immigrated here, they feel privileged.
My parents came here as refugees in my dad in the late 1970s, my mom in the early 1980s. And from where? So from Armenia. Both of them from Armenia.
TUCKER CARLSON: Soviet controlled at the time.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yes. So at the time there was an effort obviously to continue containing communism, but to help refugees who wanted to flee communism. You know, when it comes to immigration, I think it’s tricky. Right, because I do think that a lot of people come to this country and they contribute to it without question. Yeah, definitely.
And I think about the Armenian community and like Glendale is like the nicest part of LA at this point if you ask me. And it’s because it’s part of LA county, but it’s not part of LA city. It’s mostly populated by Armenians and Cubans by the way. And it’s beautiful. Glendale, California is gorgeous. You know, they, they care, they care about their community, they care about their families, they want to work hard.
You’re always going to have bad apples. And recently there was like a crime ring, an Armenian crime ring that was caught and taken down and I’m glad they got deported. Fantastic. But most of them, they really, really care.
TUCKER CARLSON: An Armenian crime ring?
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah.
TUCKER CARLSON: Was there a Mormon crime ring too?
ANA KASPARIAN: I don’t know, maybe.
TUCKER CARLSON: I’ve never heard of an Armenian crime ring in LA.
ANA KASPARIAN: I mean, look, I don’t want it to paint a picture of Armenians overall because there’s a huge Armenian population and they’re very successful and hard working in their…
TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, I know they are, yeah.
ANA KASPARIAN: But you know, you’re always going to have bad apples. It happens. And I have no problem with them being brought to justice. And that’s what went down. I think the feds actually investigated it and it was a multi year investigation and they were defrauding, you know, Medicare, there were like all sorts of financial crimes were taking place.
TUCKER CARLSON: Thank you for that. Yeah, that’s really… And the fact that Iran has a huge Christian population, I just think it’s amazing.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah.
TUCKER CARLSON: Not explained.
ANA KASPARIAN: No one ever talks about that because it goes against the grain. It goes against the narrative of Iran. And again, that’s not to say that the Iranian regime is fantastic and I support it. I don’t. And by the way, it’s not my place to determine who governs or who rules Iran. It’s up to the Iranian people.
TUCKER CARLSON: You don’t think it’s up to you?
The Future of American Foreign Policy
ANA KASPARIAN: Hell no. I live in America. I’m an American. Who am I to tell any country who their leader should be? Who is our government? We should not be meddling in those matters in any sovereign country. It’s up to the people of that country to either rise up and demand something different or to reform the system, whatever they want to do. I’m not interested in regime change. It’s not my place at all.
TUCKER CARLSON: Here I am the choir and you are preaching. So what happens to the media where you spent your entire life? Like, what does it look like in five years?
The Decline of Traditional Media
ANA KASPARIAN: I mean, I think cable news is in a lot of trouble.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.
ANA KASPARIAN: Because whether people want to believe it or not, I think most Americans are actually pretty smart and privy to the fact that they’re not really getting the whole story when they watch traditional media, when they read legacy media. And so there’s a lot more competition now online. And you have long form content like this. We’re having a long form conversation where there’s space to actually explore the complexities of various issues. And people love that. People want to be mentally stimulated.
TUCKER CARLSON: I agree.
ANA KASPARIAN: I’m never stimulated when I’m watching cable news. Maybe there are some examples, like sometimes there’s a debate segment where I’m like, “Okay, that was a good segment. I like that.” I hate the uniformity of ideology that you get on cable news. Oftentimes that bothers me.
I really, I will say this. I like Abby Phillips’s show on CNN because that whole show is about bringing all sorts of people together from different perspectives to hash it out. And it remains, for the most part, pretty civil. But we’re disagreeing and we’re explaining why we disagree. And I like that. And she’s had me on, even though I think most people in cable news probably see me as a controversial figure to some extent. But they have all sorts of people on and I love that.
The Problem with Partisan Hackery
TUCKER CARLSON: I just noticed. I was saddened to see that the one conservative guy, the professional conservative on CNN, who I think seems clever. I’m not against him personally. I don’t know him. But the second we learn that, “Oh, we’re going to be bombing Iran,” now he’s all in. He’s all in.
ANA KASPARIAN: So I feel like he… I forget his name. What was his name? He’s on often. I know who you’re talking about, but the thing that kind of offends me at this point is when partisan hackery takes place. It really annoys the crap out of me.
TUCKER CARLSON: Do I know what you’re saying? Yeah, I’ve heard about it. I’ve participated in it.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. No, and that’s the thing. I give you credit because you have on multiple occasions admitted that the neoconservative ideology that you had taken on was wrong. I don’t think most people…
TUCKER CARLSON: I think it’s evil.
ANA KASPARIAN: I don’t think most people who are against you on the left know how often you condemn yourself on your own podcast about that. So I just wanted to kind of draw attention to it.
TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I just think it’s important not to pretend you’re something that you’re not. And just be honest. I didn’t kill anybody. I did cheer on the deaths of others, though. I will say, but whatever. We all make mistakes. But I think it’s just important to be honest at all times. And I think that, to the extent you can.
The Epstein Files Controversy
ANA KASPARIAN: Exactly. But just going back to the partisan hackery, I was recently on Abby Phillips’s show, and we were talking about the Epstein files and whether or not they should be released. I’m in favor of releasing them. I think the American people deserve to know, obviously.
But there was a conservative guy on the panel who immediately jumped to, “Well, why didn’t the Democrats do it?” And it’s like, “Okay, sure, why didn’t the…” I don’t care. I don’t care about the partisan stuff. Democrats didn’t run on it. I’m not defending them. I would have liked for them to be the ones who ran on it and actually did it, but they didn’t. The one who ran on it… Well, Trump didn’t necessarily run on it, but he did…
TUCKER CARLSON: His voters want it.
ANA KASPARIAN: His voters want it. Members of his administration kept using the Epstein files as bait to entice the base. And then also, at the same time, while Trump might not have ran on it, he did use the Epstein files to attack Democrats like Bill Clinton. Right. So you’re drawing attention to that, and you’re making the release of the Epstein files a lot more desirable to your base to then turn around and engage in this weird, what I believe to be a cover up. Not a good look. Not a good look at all.
So when we’re having this discussion about what’s happening at this very moment and the Republican guy immediately goes to “Democrats bad.” It’s like, “Okay, I know the Democrats are bad. Can we just… Let’s talk about this moment right now where promises were made, but promises are not kept when it comes to the…”
TUCKER CARLSON: This specific issue or the story itself. I mean, that one of the problems with partisanship is it obscures the actual issue that I’d like to know more about. And so the Epstein thing, from my perspective, has been long known, almost 20 years. The guy was a pervert and was involved in a, apparently a really significant sex ring.
ANA KASPARIAN: Okay.
TUCKER CARLSON: With some underage girls in it. So the whole thing is gross. We knew that. But what is it, like, big picture? Like, what is that? Where did the money come from? No one can answer that question.
The Intelligence Asset Theory
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. How did he make his money? How was he so wealthy?
TUCKER CARLSON: Nobody knows.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah. Why did Les Wexner give him so much?
TUCKER CARLSON: Leon Black, like, what is that?
ANA KASPARIAN: What’s going on? Yeah, I know.
TUCKER CARLSON: So what do you think the answer is?
ANA KASPARIAN: I think he was an intelligence asset. That’s my suspicion, period.
TUCKER CARLSON: Doing what? Blackmail.
ANA KASPARIAN: Yeah, I think it was a blackmail operation. Why were there cameras in the rooms where girls were being raped? What did he do with that footage? What was the point of that footage?
TUCKER CARLSON: I have no cameras in any bedroom in my house.
ANA KASPARIAN: Neither do I.
TUCKER CARLSON: Normal people don’t.
ANA KASPARIAN: Right. He had relationships with people that were in intelligence. I mean, obviously Robert Maxwell, Ghislaine Maxwell’s father was a hardcore Zionist and worked for Mossad. I mean, this is well documented.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. I don’t think anyone…
ANA KASPARIAN: And he introduced Ghislaine to Jeffrey Epstein. The fact that Jeffrey Epstein was a college dropout, but Bill Barr’s father, who worked for the OSS, hired him to be a math teacher at the Dalton School, which is a prestigious school that would only hire prestigious teachers. Jeffrey Epstein wasn’t that. He wasn’t a prestigious teacher. He dropped out of college.
I don’t know. There’s just a lot of smoke. And it’s led to distrust in our institutions. It’s led to a lot of suspicions. And I would like to know, and I think this is very important, whether we live in a sovereign country where our politicians are actually representing us, or if we’re living in a situation where a foreign country might have blackmail on our politicians or people in positions of power, and as a result, that blackmail is being used to force these politicians to pursue policies that are not beneficial to the American people, but beneficial to a foreign country.
The Right to Know the Truth
TUCKER CARLSON: Do you really want to know, or will you admit that it’s immoral of you to want to know and that maybe you just can’t handle the truth and maybe you’re a hater for wanting to know?
ANA KASPARIAN: I want more than just me knowing. I want every single American to know. That’s what I want.
TUCKER CARLSON: Last question. Do you sincerely think that anybody on either side of the aisle, which doesn’t even exist, but whatever, left, right, wherever, could watch what you’ve said for the last almost two hours and come away angry?
ANA KASPARIAN: I mean, if you’re Zionist, probably.
TUCKER CARLSON: You didn’t even say anything against Zionism. You’re just like…
ANA KASPARIAN: I mean, I didn’t, but it doesn’t matter. Look, if the Jeffrey Epstein suspicions are ever confirmed, that looks really, really bad. And you’d want to prevent… You would want that information to never come out. So even talking about it, I feel really offends people for obvious reasons.
And so, I don’t know, we’ll see. But this is the message that I want people who might feel angry to take away from me. I don’t give a fuck. That’s it.
TUCKER CARLSON: I can’t improve on that. Ana, thank you so much.
ANA KASPARIAN: Thank you.
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