Here is the full transcript of financial commentator Jim Rogers in conversation with Norwegian political scientist Glenn Diesen on “Global Debt, the Rise of the East, and Surviving the Coming Economic Crisis”, December 14, 2025.
Brief Notes: In this insightful conversation, legendary investor Jim Rogers joins Glenn Diesen to sound the alarm on the “staggering” levels of global debt and the inevitable economic crisis on the horizon. Rogers explores the historic shift of prosperity from the West to the East, explaining why he believes China is destined to become the next great global power and why India is finally embracing a pro-success culture.
He offers a candid warning about the future of the US dollar as a safe haven and discusses why he continues to hold gold and silver as essential refuges in an era of currency debasement. From the dangers of “hysteria-driven” bubbles to the geopolitical risks of trade wars, this episode provides a masterclass in human nature, historical cycles, and the survival strategies needed for an uncertain financial future.
Introduction
GLENN DIESEN: Welcome back. Today we are joined by Jim Rogers, one of the world’s most famous and influential investors. So thank you very much for taking the time.
JIM ROGERS: Glenn, I’m flattered. I’m very flattered.
GLENN DIESEN: If we look at the world today in terms of the direction of the world and the economy, what would be the main developments which you’re currently looking at?
The Longest Bull Run in History
JIM ROGERS: Well, Glenn, the world’s been having a wonderful time for 10 or 15 years. It’s the longest in American history anyway, so long as we’ve gone in America without a problem. So that would indicate to me that a problem is coming, maybe not today, but soon, because we’ve never had such good times for so long.
Now Washington will say, “Don’t worry, it’s going to last forever.” I worry when Washington says something like that.
GLENN DIESEN: And in terms of the wider shift, though, this economic shift from the west to the east, this is something one spoken about for the past 20 years, but you really see appears to manifest itself in real geoeconomic changes as well. In Asia, you see now more efforts, especially by the Chinese, to assert more technological leadership, set up their own transportation routes, their own financial instruments. How do you see this impacting our economies in the, I guess, political West?
China’s Recurring Greatness
JIM ROGERS: Well, the world has been going through dramatic changes for hundreds of years. Yes. And yes, China is the new big country in the world, new great economy in the world. I don’t know that there’s anything we can do about it.
China is one of the few countries in world history it’s had recurring periods of greatness. Rome was great once, Egypt was great once, Britain was great once. China has been on top three or four times. It looks like they’re rising again.
I mean, we can fight it or we can accept it and join in. I prefer to join in if I can figure out how. I am not somebody who says, “Oh my gosh, they’re rising. That’s bad.” I would prefer to say they’re rising. Let’s join in.
GLENN DIESEN: Of course, you even relocated to Singapore to take advantage and take part of the rise of Asia. So I guess you’re living what you preach, which is good. But what do you see being the main problems back in the west, that is United States and Europe, because, well, a lot of countries now are running up huge levels of debt. Not just the west, of course. We also see Japan. But at what point do you think this becomes unmanageable?
Staggering Debt Levels
JIM ROGERS: Well, I’m not sure at what point, but I know it will become unmanageable. It always has throughout history. I can add, I can subtract. I know the numbers. The numbers are staggering. The debt in the US is unbelievable.
But if you look around, so is Japan, so are many countries. Now everybody says it’s okay, don’t worry, but it cannot be okay because the debt numbers are so unbelievably high and getting worse every day that somebody’s going to have to pay the price we always have.
Washington says don’t worry, it’s different. Huh? When Washington says don’t worry, I really worry.
GLENN DIESEN: This is always assumption that the present order will always be here. That is permanent. It’s an interesting aspect of human nature. But how do you see the government? I guess overreactions, mismanagement, playing into some of the economic problems we’re having?
JIM ROGERS: Well, what will happen eventually is when the crises start hitting everybody, many people will start printing a lot of money. Currencies will become destabilized or maybe even worthless because I don’t know what else governments can do. They don’t know what to do. All they will know is to print money.
Now printing money is not good, but that’s all they know. So we’re going to have a lot of money printing, which leads to currency instability and eventually more inflation.
The US Dollar: A False Safe Haven
GLENN DIESEN: Well, of all the currencies people are looking at, the US Dollar obviously is the most interesting one given that it’s been the world’s reserve currency and trade currency for so long. How do you assess the future though of the US Dollar?
JIM ROGERS: Well, I own a lot of US dollars and I own them. I mean, it’s the largest debtor in world history. So you should say why do you own them? I own them because people will look for a safe haven. Many people in the world think that the US dollar is a safe haven. It’s not, but people think it is.
So I own a lot of US dollars. If I’m right, at some point as the crisis comes, US dollar will go up a lot.
I hope I will be smart enough to sell it. I don’t know where I will put the money, but I will, I hope smart enough to sell the US dollar if it goes up a lot.
GLENN DIESEN: Well, you mentioned there’s not much government can do besides printing money and debasing the currency. But under the Trump administration now there is a massive desire to re-industrialize and the main tool appears to be tariffs. Of course tariffs have been used towards this end previously, but maybe used a bit more. Well, with less care today. It seems to be used to both punish countries, but overall, how do you see the possibility of the US re-industrializing and are the tariffs helpful so far?
The Tariff Trap
JIM ROGERS: Well, I certainly see more tariffs because that’s politicians think it’s easy. They think it’s an easy way to get more money and it doesn’t hurt their own constituents. They think tariffs, of course, are not good in the end because it’s an increased cost for many people and it causes problems.
But politicians will try it. Certainly in the US it will lead to more problems. It just means that when the economic problems come, they will be worse than ever. Then you should be worried. If you’re not worried, I will tell you I’m worried.
GLENN DIESEN: Well, we always had economic ups and downs, but a unique development now in human history is demographic decline, though that is people aren’t having babies anymore as they used to. How do you see demographics in generally playing out on the global geoeconomic outlook over the next few decades?
The Baby Crisis
JIM ROGERS: Well, everybody needs babies. I mean, you look at a country like Japan, the population has been declining for 15 years and it looks like it’s going to get worse. Now, we all need babies. And Japan is a very good example of a country that’s going to suffer a lot.
US is, even though we’re not having enough babies in the US, we still have a lot of immigration, legal and illegal immigration. So the US at least is not going to have the demographic problem that some people will have.
GLENN DIESEN: And well, in terms of the possibility of rescuing the US economy, many people, well, especially Elon Musk, he makes the argument that given the massive debt of the US, the main way to, well, rescue the situation would be to rely more on AI and automation to essentially get the economic growth faster to outpace the rising debt. How do you see the future though of AI and automation? Because, you know, now they’re talking about bubbles, not chow talking. There’s seemingly some big bubbles in terms of the investment that has been made. Are you optimistic or pessimistic here?
Bubbles: A Recurring Human Phenomenon
JIM ROGERS: Well, we’ve had bubbles for thousands of years. I hope I live long enough to see many bubbles. Now whenever something new comes along, eventually people get excited and eventually it turns into a bubble. I mean, this is what always happens.
People will say it’s different now, don’t worry, it’s different. Be careful when you hear them say it’s different this time. Yes, we will have another bubble. As I say, I hope I live long enough for many bubbles. But it’s always happened. It’s been going. The world has been having bubbles for many, many decades. It will happen again. It is happening again. It’s not a bubble yet, but it’s turning into one.
GLENN DIESEN: How do you feel we can best understand all the economic hardship we’re currently entering. Would you compare it to the global financial crisis of 2008 and 9? Or would you go back to the 1920s or do you see, well, any helpful way of understanding what is happening at the moment?
JIM ROGERS: Well, to repeat, when something new comes along, more and more people hear about, makes changes, and many people start saying, “See, it’s different, it’s different now.” And they believe it’s different now. And it is different, at least for the moment.
That always turns into hysteria. And when people get hysterical, you better sell, you better run. I’m just telling you what has always happened. We are human beings. We’ve always had human beings who react the same way. Eventually we will again.
Gold and Silver: Refuges for Thousands of Years
GLENN DIESEN: Well, another key development now is the gold prices really, while taking off, passing well beyond $4,000 an ounce. How do you explain this though? And do you see a roof on gold or do you think it’s going to continue along this trajectory?
JIM ROGERS: Well, I own some gold. I own gold and silver and I have for many, many decades. I hope I’m smart enough not to sell my gold, not to sell my silver. I hope that my children have my gold and silver someday, whether we like it or not.
Gold and silver have been refuges for hundreds of years, thousands of years. You remember Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ was sold for 30 pieces of silver because silver was what was valuable in that area in those days. So gold and silver have been around forever.
Politicians often say, “Ah, forget gold, forget gold, it’s not worth anything.” Let them talk. As long as I’ve been alive and hundreds of years longer, gold and silver have retained value. I own both. I hope my children own my gold and silver someday. Everybody should have them gold in the closet. Everybody should have some silver under the bed.
GLENN DIESEN: Of these two metals though, which are you more optimistic about, gold or silver?
JIM ROGERS: Well, I guess on a historic basis, silver is cheaper than gold right now, but I own them both. If I’m attentive and one is down, I hope I’m smart enough to buy more. I don’t have a preference. It just depends on the price.
The Stock Market vs. The Real Economy
GLENN DIESEN: And well, if you assess the general economic developments, the stock market seems to have gone up, but there’s deepening problems within the real economy. How do you, well, I guess assess these contradictions and wouldn’t do see that the problems within the real economy would catch up with the stock market at some point.
JIM ROGERS: Well, they always have. Yes. Yes. It’s not the first time we’ve had a divergence between the stock market and the real economy to have happened. Often it’s happening again. There’s a lot of loose. There’s a lot of easy money around. It’s very easy to get all the money you want.
These days, many governments, every government, nearly every government has printed a lot of money. So it’s wonderful for the people who know how to play it. And as long as it lasts, everybody will have fun. But it will come to an end. It always has and it will again.
GLENN DIESEN: Well, in this part of the world, Europe. How are you assessing the European market? Do you buy anything, invest on the continent, or do you have more pessimistic outlook?
JIM ROGERS: I do not have any investments in Europe now. Not because I. It’s just because nearly everything in the world has been going up for a long time. You know, since 2008, most economies, most markets have been doing very well. It’s great.
But I have been. I’ve read enough and have enough experience to know that when everybody’s doing well, it’s a time to ask questions.
Stay With What You Know
GLENN DIESEN: Well, there seems to be others thinking along the same lines as you. That is a lot of the tech billionaires, from Zuckerberg to Bezos and others, they seem to be selling off some stocks and racking up a lot of cash. What should people do if you’re ahead of a economic crisis, if not a meltdown? How? Well, what’s a good strategy to preserve your wealth and, yeah, ideally, make some money as well?
JIM ROGERS: Well, the only strategy is to stay with what you know. Don’t listen to somebody on the Internet or somebody on the television. Stay with what you know and put your money in what you know, not what other people say.
Stay with what you know. And then when things go right or things go wrong, you will know what to do because you know what you’re doing. I certainly don’t want anybody to listen to me or anybody else, because the only way to get through when things start getting tricky is to be sure you know what you’re doing.
GLENN DIESEN: But returning to Europe, though, what do you see as being the main challenges of Europe in the years to come now?
Europe’s Demographic and Debt Challenges
JIM ROGERS: Well, I mean, Europe is building up a lot of debt. Europe has demographic problems now. Europe’s been there for a long, long time, and I’m sure it will continue to be there. But there are serious demographic problems in parts of Europe, and the demographic problems are not getting better, they’re getting worse.
You know, I mean, look around. There are not many babies in many parts of Europe. That ultimately leads to problems. Don’t worry, Europe will always be there. But it will change a lot, especially demographically because there are lots of immigrants now and not so many local babies.
GLENN DIESEN: Well, in the most recent U.S. National Security Strategy, which only came out a few days ago, the U.S. government cautioned about Europe’s civilizational erasure or death or decline, partly because of what you refer to—the economic problems, demographic declines. Well, they also added an inability of the culture to reproduce itself. But do you see the United States essentially adjusting to Europe’s economic decline and setting new priorities, or how are you assessing U.S. relationship to Europe?
JIM ROGERS: Well, the U.S. will continue to try to adjust. Most countries always have to adjust when there are big changes taking place. U.S. has been the largest economy in the world, so it’s got an important place still. But the U.S. has built up huge debt. We’re having more debt, but so are many countries in Europe.
So the world is facing a huge debt problem. In many countries, this has always ended badly, and I presume it will end badly again. It always has, certainly in Europe and America and the places like Japan, the places that are building up the debt.
Russia’s Economic Transformation
GLENN DIESEN: Well, in the 1990s, when we look towards Eastern Europe, it was—well, the economies weren’t very impressive and Russia especially looked like it was just going to go from weak to weaker. But over the past years now we see, according to the World Bank, Russia’s adjusted up to the fourth largest economy in the world in terms of purchasing power parity.
We see the energy, agriculture, we see it has a high degree of technological sovereignty. At the same time, they’re having some massive conflict, obviously with the West. How are you assessing, though, the Russian economy? Are you optimistic? Because I know you used to be pessimistic for decades and then you flipped a bit on it about 15, 20 years ago. But how do you see Russia today?
JIM ROGERS: Well, at times in my life I have had investments in Russia. I do not right now, but Russia has been there a long time. They have gigantic natural resources, both oil, minerals, metals, agriculture. They have a lot of stuff. I mean, it’s got the gigantic land mass. They don’t have so many people compared to its landmass, but Russia’s always been there.
You read the Russian novels. You know, at times the Russians were the richest, richest people around. They will be again. But you also read history and you know they’ve had many problems. They will again. But don’t worry, there will always be a Russia.
The Russia-China Partnership and Greater Eurasia
GLENN DIESEN: Well, for the past 300 years, the Russians always, since Peter the Great, they always look towards Europe for economic development and modernization. But now over the past few years, they have switched to what they refer to as Greater Eurasia. That is, look towards the east for economic partnerships and primarily China. How do you see that relationship, the Chinese-Russian relationship? Because it seems to be at the core of spearheading some, I guess, alternative economic infrastructure.
JIM ROGERS: Well, I mean, the Russians can read. They know what’s going on just like I do. My children speak Mandarin, speak Chinese because of what’s happening in the world. The Russians see that too. China, enormous population. Russia has lots of natural resources. They can work together and they will in many ways.
Often when you have a rising power and a dominant power, they’ve often clashed. Not always. They don’t have to, but no, the Russians know what’s going on, the Chinese know what’s going on. Many of us do. And it’s happening again. Maybe it’s not the same countries, maybe it’s different countries, but it doesn’t matter. When you have rising prosperity somewhere, other people notice and try to join in. It’s happening again in Asia especially.
India’s Economic Awakening
GLENN DIESEN: Well, one country which has attempted to join in on this rise of Asia, though, is India. Well, they are rising, but if you look 30 years back, there was more parity between the Indians and the Chinese. Of course, there’s these ambitions in India now to try to catch up with China. But do you see that Chinese economic development model having been exhausted, or do you—well, what kind of economic future do you see for India?
JIM ROGERS: Well, India has a huge population with lots of educated, talented people. And it’s on the rise again for the first time in my life. I mean, I’ve often invested in India, but for the first time in my life, I think that the people in Delhi understand prosperity is good. They always said it, but Nehru and Gandhi—no, they didn’t like rich people. They hated rich people.
But now, from my judgment, the people in India understand that success is good, prosperity is good, and there’s going to be more. So India is going to be even more exciting in the future.
Africa’s Rising Potential
GLENN DIESEN: And, well, when we look at some economic rivalry between east and west in terms of territory, one of the areas that seems to be a lot of competition is over Africa. That is a lot of concern, especially now in Europe, that the Russians and the Chinese and particularly the Chinese are coming in to Africa in a big way in terms of being the main trading partner.
What do you see for Africa though, because historically it used to be seen as just a poverty stricken continent. But now we see a lot of the fastest growing economies are in Africa. We see, you know, almost the only continent in the world which has a proper population boom. How do you see the future of Africa?
JIM ROGERS: Well, you have just named it. The Africans are still continuing to have population growth, not like before. I mean people don’t have eight or 10 children anymore, but they still have four or five. You have population growth in Africa as a big population, lots of natural resources. So Africa’s on the rise again.
In my view, China is still going to be the next great country in the world. But China and Africa will trade a lot with each other and both will benefit, both will prosper.
U.S. Economic Policies and the Coming Crisis
GLENN DIESEN: Do you have any predictions though about the U.S. economic policies going forward? Where its priorities will be? Will it seek to shore up its control in the Western hemisphere or will they confront the Chinese? Will they seek economic partnership with China?
JIM ROGERS: Well, any country that’s been on top for years, on top, tries to adjust when new big countries are rising. That’s happening to the U.S. There are many countries rising now. U.S. has been on top. But the U.S. has the largest debt in the history of the world.
The U.S. is trying to adjust. I’m afraid that the politicians usually make mistakes throughout history. Whoever the country is, politicians start making mistakes and things get worse for them. History would indicate that that will happen to the U.S. too. You know, as other countries rise and as the U.S. debt gets higher and higher and higher, it will lead to problems and probably the people in the capital will make mistakes.
I’m just telling you what has always happened throughout history and it will probably happen again. I don’t particularly like saying that because I’m an American, but it’s a good time to be an old American. You know, young Americans are going to have many, many problems. It’s good to be old.
GLENN DIESEN: Well, you often have warned though that a massive bear market would be coming our way. Do you have any good timing or how do you see the, I guess the economic situation beginning to unravel? Or should we expect banking crisis? Is it a currency crisis? Beyond the rising debt, what is it that you would keep your eyes open for?
JIM ROGERS: Well, you have said it. We’ve had crises throughout history, all over the world. It’s not as though it’s something that just happens, you know, in a certain time or a certain country. We’ve had many. The world has had many, many, many economic problems and crises throughout history.
People get excited, they get carried away and things get overdone and it leads to a problem. As some people say, “Let’s get out of here,” and that will happen again. Listen, I don’t like saying any of this, but I know what happens in the world. We’re all human beings, we’ve always been human beings, and human beings react the same way. They start making mistakes, and then the mistakes get worse and you have a huge collapse.
Whether it’s economic—well, it’s usually an economic collapse that comes first. And as you know, economic collapses often lead to shooting wars. You don’t have to shoot at each other, but people often do. Because when things start going wrong, the politicians blame the foreigners. They say, “Ah, it’s those evil foreigners that are the problems.” And that will happen again.
And that sometimes leads to shooting wars, because everybody likes to blame the foreigners. It’s easy to blame foreigners. Different language, different food, different clothes. Everybody blames the foreigners when things go wrong. I’m just talking to you about human beings.
The Seizure of Russian Assets and Global Consequences
GLENN DIESEN: Well, yeah, in Europe, though, we do have a shooting war, of course, in this proxy war against the Russians. But one of the efforts, well, the things being discussed, as you know, in the EU, is their desire to not just freeze the Russian assets, but to actually take them. That is to find a legal way of, well, stealing the assets so we can use it to shore up our own economies or give it over to the Ukrainians. Well, this is—well, it’s unprecedented, I guess. How do you assess the possible consequences of such a decision?
JIM ROGERS: I mean, politicians throughout history have tried to figure out a way to steal other people’s assets. And it’s happening again. Everybody wants free money, you know, and it’s easy to blame the foreigners. It’s easy to take the foreigners’ assets. Yes, it’s happening again. Is it right? No, it’s not right, but it’s always happening. And now everybody says, “Let’s take the assets away from the Russians.” It’s not good, but it’s happening and it will continue.
GLENN DIESEN: My last question is just how do you predict the Indians or Chinese to react to such a measure, though from the Europeans? I know the Americans aren’t jumping on board with this. If anything, I think the Trump administration has been a bit—well, warned the Europeans that this is likely not a good idea. But how do you think Asia and the rest of the world would respond to these decisions by the Europeans?
JIM ROGERS: Well, the Chinese and the Indians and everybody with any historical knowledge will realize that this has happened before. They realize that it’s not correct, but it will happen and everybody will try to get their share and try to get their part. Everybody’s greedy. Everybody wants to be rich. Everybody wants free money.
I repeat, is it justice? No. But has it happened? It happened throughout history and it will happen again because everybody wants a free lunch. Everybody wants free money. And they will say this is free money. And they will say it’s justice, it’s justifiable for many reasons. And everybody will try to grab some.
GLENN DIESEN: So you don’t expect this could, I guess, unravel the financial system in Europe, killing off all the trust?
JIM ROGERS: Well, throughout history, when things start going wrong, people start grabbing assets. It makes some people angry. And when they start getting angry at people, it usually leads to conflict. Whether it’s trade wars, which are never good, but they’ve often happened, or shooting wars, which are even worse.
Yes, we’re human beings. Look at how human beings react and always have. I don’t like saying it, but I know that when we start having economic problems again, it doesn’t matter where you are. People will blame the foreigners. People will say, “Ah, those evil people. Those evil people caused a problem” and they will try to get more assets.
Everybody will want free money and they will blame other people and it will make things worse. I wish I could tell you that we’ve all gotten smarter and we will understand. We haven’t gotten smarter and we’re still very greedy, all of us.
GLENN DIESEN: Well, thank you for the—yeah, your perspective. So it’s a bit pessimistic human nature, its impact on the economy, but there is a certain historical continuity one can’t reject, of course.
JIM ROGERS: I just know human nature. I hope you do too. I hope we all do. We have to live with it.
GLENN DIESEN: Well, thanks again for taking the time though.
JIM ROGERS: It’s my pleasure. I hope we can do it again sometime.
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