Transcript: An Unfiltered Conversation With Charlie Kirk – The Iced Coffee Hour

Why don’t more people think like you? Because I agree with you.

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, first of all, it is risk in the sense that we as human beings do desire comfort and we want to kind of be in a place where we can have certainty above uncertainty and going and asking the question or going and asking a top billionaire for money. You have the probability of failure. And we are very failure averse as a species. And honestly we should be.

You think about 5,000 years ago you have two kids and you’re living in Mesopotamia and you’re like, “Well I hope there’s food over that hill.” And if you’re wrong, your whole family could die. So that’s embedded into our species. Right. God designed us in a way where there was not a lot of food all the place.

So now you kind of extrapolate that kind of genetic wiring where we used to be in the wilderness to Foster Friess. And you think you’re like, “Wow, Foster tells me no, my whole life’s going to…” Actually, no, you’re going to be fine. You could go and still eat food and you’re not going to die.

And So I think we have to overcome our genetic hardwiring where so many people think that it’s a life or death situation. “I can’t ask this girl out, I can’t go ask for a raise, I can’t go to my boss, I can’t assert myself.” And you have to overcome that because it’s actually not that much risk.

Now what is risk is if there’s a material or a reputational thing you’re putting on the line. For example, if you’re working for a company and they’re like, “You’re not allowed to express your conservative views” and you’re all of a sudden wearing a MAGA hat, that’s a risk. I totally get that. But if you’re 18 years old and you have no money, no connections, no idea what you’re doing, I had nothing to lose.

And that’s actually one of my main arguments for why we have so few entrepreneurs nowadays. We have less and less entrepreneurship rates are going down, is we’re sending all these kids to college and they’re telling you to be risk averse. The whole incentive structure in college is to not pursue big broad ideas, actually to stay rather cloistered and play it safe.

College Campus Debates

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Speaking of that, that’s where I first found your content. Was you on the college campuses debating, when did that start? And what was the most surprising aspect of that?

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah, so I’ve been doing that for 13 years. I haven’t been doing that on camera for 13 years. And so look, the Lord has been so amazing to us and has blessed us in amazing ways. And so I never would have imagined, honestly, ever since I met Foster Friess, that we’d be somewhat of kind of a household name. I don’t want to over extend it, but I mean, there’s some serious virality and some real punch behind what we’re doing.

So I started doing that without even filming it. And that’s what people are like, you act. And that was before mass social media. Thirteen years ago, it was still there. Honestly, I should have filmed it would have went their trajectory probably would have been even faster.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: But 2012, right?

CHARLIE KIRK: Yes. I mean, because that was the raw Internet and it would have been really interesting, but that’s how, you know, I actually believe this stuff is I used to go debate kids when there was no incentive structure for virality. I just did it because I loved it and I love the battle of ideas. And I did it to try to start a turning point group on campus.

And so I’ve been doing it for 13 years. We started filming it around 2017. We started perfecting the model really around 2021. And then 2023 is when all of a sudden it kind of became a somewhat a cultural phenomenon. And then of course the last year seems like I can’t get out of people’s algorithm.

The Battle of Ideas vs. Rhetoric

JACK SELBY: So you mentioned that you like the battle of ideas. But one thing that I tend to notice is that whoever has stronger rhetoric persuasion skills, you know, quick on their feet, that’s going to be the person to win the argument, the debate. Do you feel like these debates have turned into a battle of ideas or just who has stronger rhetoric?

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s a good point. I actually have to think. I think about that a lot. So I try to do a couple things and I fail. But if you notice, I’ve in the viral videos, I try to put my microphone down literally physically on the table when the person is asking their question because I want to try to give them uninterrupted time to be able to make their argument.

Number two, there is an advantage that the person coming up to the mic has that they’re allowed to ask any topic and I don’t know what that topic is going to be and they could prepare profusely on it. But you’re right, of course it’s advantage to the guy that does it for a living. Right. But understand I have to go to a college campus and defend ideas that are in the minority of a lot of these kids worldview. I have to go to college campus and argue against abortion. Most kids are not against abortion. Right.

JACK SELBY: Have you ever had your mind changed from one of these college cases?

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh yeah. I mean so mine changed is over a period of time probably. Yes. I would say that I definitely have grown respect for the thoughtfulness of a lot of international students when it has come to the Russian Ukraine war. I’m very against US involvement but talking to and they’re all public, you can watch them very thoughtful German students and very thoughtful students from Eastern Europe. For them it’s a very existential crisis what’s happening. And so to hear that was something that was very different than what you would hear just on the usual American political landscape.

But yeah, look, I’d say over. I would say that I learn a lot too and that’s what’s important. I do 100 hours of this a semester, 100 hours, in addition to two hours of podcasting radio. Right. 250 speeches a year. I got to raise $130 million a year. And I got 1,000 employees. I got a lot going up, right? I still do 100 hours of content a year, so 200 hours of campus content.

And I’m not just, I try and I fail. Everyone would fail at this. But I try not to just be ready to say what I want to say next. I try to really learn and listen, and then I try to listen back to the footage. And so this is one of the reasons why it’s a little bit unfair when I go to these campuses, because I’ve been doing it for literally a thousand hours. And these kids are college freshmen. So I try to have at least somewhat of a teacher role to them and try to be a little bit softer. Unless if they’re coming after me and they’re insulting me. And you’ve seen it, right? They’re just being totally blitzkrieg.

JACK SELBY: It’s nice, because I feel like you do tend to do that where they might have a hard time articulating a certain philosophical argument, but then you take it for that strongest, you know, derivative or representation of that strongest philosophy.

The Importance of Character Development

CHARLIE KIRK: And I try to do a better job of that. So, look, everyone fails, right? I mean, sometimes it’s like 98 degrees outside, and I didn’t sleep well because my kids were up all night. And it’s like the ninth time they’re asking me about Israel. And I love Israel, but I’m tired of answering questions on Israel, okay? It’s fine. But this is not the “debate Charlie Kirk on Israel Hour.” And I’m like, can we have another topic here? And I might get a little bit miffed. Who wouldn’t, right? I mean, that’s just human.

But I will say, I try to meet you at the frequency you’re at. So if they’re coming after me and they’re insulting my appearance or whatever, I’m not going to let myself get run over. But if a liberal student comes and they’re like, “hey, I really seek to understand this” or “help me know,” I try not to pummel them, if that makes sense. Because at least I think that’s effective right now.

If they come with a uniquely grotesque idea, then I’m going to try to expose it to the audience and to the online community. But no, look, I learn a lot, and I hope the audience does too. And I mean, the physical crowds are now 3,000 to 4,000 people almost every time we do this.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Now in those cases, when have you found that college is really worth it for someone?

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah, it’s a great question. So I’m a big proponent of Hillsdale College. So Hillsdale, I think, is America’s greatest college because it’s what college should be, which is the development of the soul and character. So character is one of the most important things that you can invest in when you’re 18, 19, 20 years old.

And I guarantee you, if you go to most colleges, they’re about preparing you for your career, but they’re not about preparing your character. And character is really, really important. Right. Character literally comes from the Greek word tattoo or to etch into you. Character will define every decision, right? From what you eat to what you drink, to how you communicate to people, to the decisions you make. Way more important than whatever skill you have.

Having a skill is important. I’m not diminishing that. But if you guys are building a business, wouldn’t you rather have people of high character and high skill? Of course you want people of high character. Skills can come. Character is the hard thing. And so I think that the college world has done a really bad job of developing character. They don’t even prioritize it.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Why do you think it’s failed so many people?

The Problem with Modern Higher Education

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, those are two separate questions. So why do they not teach character? Well, first of all, they don’t think that’s their reason for existing. Most of them, it depends. The super left wing colleges, which is most of them, they’re all like, “we’re here to create global citizens for an ever changing world.” Like some sort of pablum or they’re like, “we want to have you very specific skill. We want you to be able to turn a widget.”

Which, by the way, if AI replaces that job, what do you have? That’s a cool thing about developing character. If AI replaces jobs, you still have the most important of all things, which is you know the difference between good and evil, right and wrong, beauty and ugly. Right. You know the difference between the high things and the low things. That’s what we should strive for in higher education. That’s why I think Hillsdale does a great job.

But yeah, most… I mean, if you want to become a doctor or lawyer, of course you have to go to college, right? But you still have to go through this ridiculous environment of left wing social indoctrination.

But I will say though, that I’ve debated all around the world, but I’ve debated at Cambridge and Oxford all across the country. The other problem is that they’re not in the pursuit of wisdom. And this is one of the more important things. If you ask a regular college kid what is the difference between knowledge and wisdom, they’ll just trip over themselves. And it’s not a semantic thing. It’s actually important.

Knowledge is just facts. Okay, I know the capital of California, Sacramento, whatever. Wisdom is the knowledge of things that never change. It’s the understanding of things that never change. It’s like, what is human nature? What does it mean to be a good person? What is beauty? What is goodness? What is the best way of living? What is a society in its fullest form? Is it good to have children?

Wisdom is understanding. That is even playing with the idea, is there a God? Who are we? How did we get here? I think that’s what college should be all about, is the cultivation of wisdom. As a Christian, we believe wisdom starts with the fear of the Lord. But yeah, I mean, I don’t mean to talk uninterrupted for 10 minutes straight, but yeah, I think that college has completely derailed its purpose.

The Path to Wealth in America

JACK SELBY: College as an application for the average person. I think it’s really interesting. Ben Shapiro claims to be wealthy in America. You need to do three things. Graduate high school, get a full time job, and get married before you have children.

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh, yeah, and he’s right. And that’s the Brookings Institution. He’s right on all three.

JACK SELBY: Do you think he’s missing anything?

CHARLIE KIRK: First of all, I like Ben a lot. We disagree on some big things, but Ben’s great and he’s been a good friend for a while. Yeah, I would say, become a person of high character again. I’m going to kind of go back to a main thing.

JACK SELBY: You think that that is essential to be wealthy in America?

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s a good question. I don’t think being wealthy is that important. Do you want to be wealthy of the soul or just have a bunch of money?

JACK SELBY: That would be a different question.

CHARLIE KIRK: But I guess the question is fine. If you want to be rich, I can tell you how to get rich. That’s actually not that hard. How would you get rich? Work relentlessly and solve a problem for people and dedicate your entire life to it and become an insane person, basically.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Do you think it’s possible to still do all of those things though, and then not become rich?

CHARLIE KIRK: Of course. But if your whole reason for living is to become rich, you will become rich. Most people that I think… most people I meet that want to be rich, they actually don’t want to be rich. They want to have the lifestyle of being rich. They don’t actually want to be rich. They’re like, you have to sacrifice everything to want to become actually rich. Unless you’re born into it.

No nights, few weekends. I traveled 3,000 days over a decade. I’m a million miler, American Delta United. I’m in all 50 states multiple times. It’s thankless, gritty work. Shapiro hosted two radio shows, plus Breitbart.com and Truth Revolt. Not easy.

So if you actually want to be rich, then there is a path for you. You have to sacrifice immensely. I don’t drink alcohol. Tucker Carlson doesn’t drink alcohol. Donald Trump doesn’t drink alcohol. Now, that doesn’t mean that you can’t be rich if you don’t drink alcohol, but you must sacrifice.

It might be that you create a good widget or you might a good social media app, or you might get good venture funding, but even those guys will tell you you have to fail a lot. You have to sacrifice a lot. You have to be really gritty.

I just challenge the premise of what is the most important. I think if getting material wealth is the most important thing, I think there actually is a playbook for that. That absent of committing crimes like being a really crappy person, being sociopathic. It depends. Also, we define as rich.

There is a way forward for if it’s your number one reason for living to earn $500,000 a year. That’s very conceivable in America. But if you’re like, “hey, actually the most important thing is to have kids.” Which I actually think having children is more important than having material success. And I have both. And I can tell you kids are way better than having money.

Honestly, not being poor is awesome. That’s the best thing I could tell you. Being super rich, and I’m not super rich, but I would consider to be successful under American terms is great, but up to a place, it’s kind of like, you’re blessed, you’re wealthy, it’s fine. Not being poor is the true blessing. Not worrying about medical bills or being in debt is really bad.

But yeah, it depends on what you want. If you want to be rich like actually have your bank account big, then America of course you can do that.

Personal Responsibility vs. Circumstances

JACK SELBY: How much of people being poor is their fault versus just the circumstances of their life?

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s both. It depends. It’s very case dependent. A lot of it is agency I put. So we as conservatives tend to blame free will, agency and the person a lot more than circumstances. But of course circumstances play a role. Of course it does.

JACK SELBY: Why do you think conservatives generally stay silent on wealth inequality?

Wealth Inequality and Economic Mobility

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, I don’t know if we’re silent on it. I mean, I think that we’re finally starting to talk about it. I’d say that we would say that don’t throw rocks at the top of the building. Fix the elevator. So the question shouldn’t be, how many rich people are? The question is how easy is it to move up the socioeconomic ladder? That’s the more important metric, and that’s actually becoming harder. So that’s a really important conversation.

But I could probably agree with a liberal that it’s not good to have an entrenched, permanent oligarchy that’s running the country and that people have to go into debt and go into credit to pay for their groceries. I actually don’t want to live in that country. So I can agree that we should talk about it more.

But is there anything inherently wrong with a billionaire? No. Most billionaires actually have solved big problems for us. People love hating on Elon Musk. I like Elon a lot. He’s become a friend. I know there’s been a lot of social media talk about it, but I refuse to say anything negative about Elon. You tell me the next time you’re able to launch a rocket and land it. Actually, that’s pretty cool. You’re able to revolutionize the electric car industry. You deserve a lot of money if you do that.

The Financial Literacy Crisis

GRAHAM STEPHAN: One of the things that I’ve been confused about is why financial literacy is never taught in schools. You think that this would be something taught throughout middle school, high school, college. Why is that?

CHARLIE KIRK: I mean if you want an actual conspiracy theory that, yeah, that’s evidence of a conspiracy. If you want to have people remain super poor and dependent on the government, don’t teach them financial literacy. It’s inexcusable.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: And who do you think is in charge of that?

CHARLIE KIRK: I’m not saying I’m the designer of that conspiracy.

JACK SELBY: The incentives are aligned.

CHARLIE KIRK: They’re saying if you want a generation to have to go to the payday lending people and if you want to have them filling out credit cards at 25% interest, don’t teach financial literacy. I don’t know who I mean.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: It’s convenient.

CHARLIE KIRK: I’m a big school choice advocate. I think that we need school choice. I think the public sector teacher unions and the public sector cartel have done huge damage for this country. But yeah, I mean look, how many young kids right now that are 17 can tell you the difference between credit and debit? They can’t.

So one of the things I like about Trump’s upcoming big beautiful bill is that every new baby born in America will get a thousand dollar loan from the federal government in an investment account that they can’t touch until they’re 18, invested in the Dow Jones Industrial Average that they’ll be able to monitor throughout the 18 years. It can be grown by philanthropists, family members, grandparents. So they’ll actually be able to see their wealth increase as stakeholders.

So if we have two kids, if we have another kid, that kid will immediately have an investment account that’s only a one way dropbox. You can’t access this money until you’re 18. So it actually creates ownership units for the next generation. I think it’s phenomenal.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: I wish they did that with Social Security.

CHARLIE KIRK: Of course they should. We were told it was a lockbox and it wasn’t of course.

The Secret to Building Wealth

But no, I mean look, if you want the secret to get rich, it’s actually not super hard. It’s live below your means, save your money, invest in good companies and then find good ideas and read a lot. Read a lot. If you just read a lot and you understand, all of a sudden, you’ll see trends and you’ll be well informed. Again, I don’t want to make it seem like it’s super easy, but it depends what you define by rich.

But I will say one final thing. People are so bad with money. Again, if your top priority is getting drunk, then go do that. I know a lot of people. They’re like, “I want to be rich. I spent $700 going out this weekend.” Oh, yes, you don’t want to be rich. You want to feel good and you want to have a bunch of toxins go through your liver, but you actually don’t want to live a life of happiness and contentment.

I’m not a moralist. If you want to drink, go ahead. It’s a free society. Go do that. But then don’t all of a sudden complain to me that you’re not materially wealthy.

JACK SELBY: It just seems like it’s such low lift to make a huge change in terms of wealth inequality. If there was just one course taught in high school about financial literacy. And so, hypothetically, I’m just a casual viewer of, I mean, I’ve been watching for a very long time. How difficult would it be for you to just reach out to Trump or reach out to someone and be like, what do we got to do to put some incentives into the school system to teach financial advice?

GRAHAM STEPHAN: You know what? It might hurt a lot of businesses if people were smart with their money.

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh, it would totally. The credit card companies would freak out.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: They would freak out.

CHARLIE KIRK: Could you imagine Visa and MasterCard, Apple, people are asking questions about 25% interest. I mean, so it’s a lot. How difficult would that be?

JACK SELBY: I mean, is there just way too much interest?

CHARLIE KIRK: No, no, no. It would just be difficult. It’s very hard for the federal government to control curriculum but apply incentives. Yeah, the states should do it. There have been some ideas to do this. I know that there’s big companies that have tried to do this because they’re like, “Oh, yeah, we’re giving money towards financial literacy.”

I’m sorry. Whatever you guys are doing is not working. Whatever program you think that’s going on, financial literacy, you guys are all a failure. You should shut down, because it’s just not working. Because I deal with the next generation they know nothing about financial literacy, very little to nothing.

The Reality of Building Wealth

And this is one of the things that I just want to caution everybody about, which is, I’m very, very pro crypto. But I know a lot of people that have lost money on crypto. I’m sure you guys, I’m very, very pro crypto. I think it was a huge opportunity. I think it’s incredible technology more than anything else. But the best way to build wealth is over long periods of time, saving money and doing boring stuff. It’s not get rich quick. It’s not big meme coins. It’s not big spikes. It’s just going to work. Saving money and living below your means.

I know that’s not the sexy answer everyone wants, but that’s what Warren Buffett did. Warren Buffett’s one of the world’s wealthiest men. He started with very little money 70 years ago. And the eighth wonder of the world, you know, the eighth wonder of the…

GRAHAM STEPHAN: World is compound interest.

CHARLIE KIRK: And no one wants to hear that. They want to hear about what’s the next Nvidia? I don’t know. But I can tell you that in 40 years, if you put 100 bucks a week into a moderately managed wealth account, you’re going to be great. “100 bucks a week? Man, I can’t afford that.” Well, let’s talk about how much money do you make? “Oh, I make $91,000.” You can afford 100 bucks a week. Stop getting your Frappuccino. Stop going out to drink with your friends.

JACK SELBY: You sound exactly like…

CHARLIE KIRK: I don’t.

JACK SELBY: I mean, the reason why we’re called the Iced Coffee Hour is because he had a joke on his channel called the 20 cent iced coffee. And you could save three dollars a day, which is $100 a month. And if you just invest that in…

CHARLIE KIRK: $1,200 a year. Yeah.

JACK SELBY: A Roth IRA, you know, assuming 10% interest, you have some inflation. But when you’re 60 or whatever, you’ll be a millionaire.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: That all came from a guy who is spending $500 a month at Starbucks.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, I’m probably that guy.

JACK SELBY: You’re that guy.

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, now I am, but it’s terrible. It’s not good.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: But you have amazing coffee makers upstairs.

CHARLIE KIRK: Aren’t they incredible? Yeah. I also drink a lot of tea and Starbucks. Someone who travels a lot. The one thing about Starbucks is consistency. So it’s just like, I don’t know what mom and pop place there is in Laramie, Wyoming. I don’t know.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: It’s a coin flip if it’s good or not.

CHARLIE KIRK: Exactly. The only argument for mass proliferation of Starbucks when you travel is you do the rewards though, right? Yeah, Mikey does.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: It’s funny, I actually have coffee socks on, believe it or not.

CHARLIE KIRK: Good for coffee’s really good. I’m very pro coffee, so I think coffee gets a bad rap. It’s very, very good for you, actually.

Building Wealth on $40,000 a Year

JACK SELBY: Let’s talk about the average American. Do you think it’s possible to build wealth when you’re making $40,000 a year?

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s a great question. First of all, if you’re earning $40,000 a year, you’re in a tough spot, and I don’t envy that. And you might be there because your own choices, you’re an agency. That’s a really hard question. Depends where you live, depends your age, and also depends on your circumstances.

And so if you have kids and $40,000 a year, it’s very hard to build wealth. And that’s a real problem that we have to tackle. But if you’re 18 years old, earning $40,000 a year, and you have four roommates. Yeah, you could build wealth for sure. Actually, if you have four roommates and you’re living in downtown Phoenix and your rent’s a thousand bucks a month because you’re splitting it four ways, you absolutely can build wealth.

I mean, so it’s a very case dependent answer. But if you have $40,000, you’re with two kids. I don’t know how you’d support two kids with $40,000. You have to go to government assistance. Which, by the way, we, as conservatives, we bash government assistance a lot.

So I’m a huge Oregon Ducks fan. Massive Oregon Ducks fan. My dad went to University of Oregon, my uncle did, my aunt did. I know every player. So Dan Lanning, the coach, I don’t know if you care about college football or not, but the coach of University of Oregon, there was a moment in his life where he was what they call, not an assistant coach. What do they say? You’re kind of like a coach’s assistant. Basically, he was on food stamps as a coach. He’s like, “I was ashamed by it. I felt guilty. But we needed it.” And now he’s earning 11 million bucks a year being the University of Oregon football coach.

And so I think that’s a great case story of we want this to be a safety net, not a hammock. And here’s a guy who really needed it. He had two kids. And so if you’re earning $40,000 a year, that’s a tough spot.

Identifying Counterproductive Employees

JACK SELBY: So I always think about this study, this data, where the US military during World War II and Vietnam War conducted aptitude and psychological evaluations showing that 10 to 20% of new recruits were only ever positively counterproductive in any sort of work. And then this is also backed by corporate research as well, showing that 10 to 20% of individuals will only ever be toxic and contribute to less efficiency in the work environment than them just being gone in the first place. As someone that runs a massive company, how do you find these people and then weed them out?

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s a great question. They kind of reveal themselves. So it’s a really important question. So we have highly intensive events, the best in the movement, I would say they are objectively the biggest. 15,000 people, 20,000 people. Last year we hosted the Bobby Kennedy, Donald Trump event where Bobby Kennedy endorsed Donald Trump. We hosted President Trump six times. Last year we had our Student Action Summit, our Young Women’s Leadership Summit, AmFest, tons of campus stuff.

So pressure is a beautiful thing. Pressure will reveal those 20% very quickly. They cannot hide in high pressure situations.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: What do you look for specifically? Or what?

Personal Finance and Investment Strategy

CHARLIE KIRK: Complaining, asymmetrical behavior, suppressive personality, antisocial personality behavior, for sure. Gossiping, leaking, being late, trying to divide things of that nature, disobeying orders, cutting corners.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: When do you know how to cut? And maybe give them a chance of. Maybe they just had a bad day, they didn’t sleep, the kids are.

CHARLIE KIRK: So if there’s a pattern, for sure, I mean, it goes to like levels of defiance, right? If somebody is directly defying orders or if somebody has a really bad attitude. And again, events are a great way to flush this out.

I always say when I have our all staff meeting, I said, “Some of you guys are going to move up in the company in the next four days. And some of you guys might not be here in four days.” And like, there’s a lot of silence in the room. But when you have 700 people in a room, it’s just the odds, right?

And so we have very strict policies at Turning Point USA of certain things that we expect and certain things that drive success. And it’s a great way to kind of see what people are made of.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Now, when you say disobeying orders, how can you tell if they’re truly just being defiant for the sake of being defiant or if they’re an entrepreneur at heart and doing what they feel is the best move for the company, even though it’s not popular.

CHARLIE KIRK: So let me give you an example. If there is a rule which is like during these three days you are not to drink alcohol because you have to be on call, and that we’re hosting high schoolers, totally appropriate, and we find out that you’re at a bar drinking alcohol, that’s disobedience, right? Defiance.

Whereas if they’re trying to find a more creative solution. Yeah, I mean, I’ll be honest, we kind of run our stuff like the military, in a sense, the four days. We appreciate your creativity. We want you to kind of within bounds.

But, for example, if I’m hosting President Trump and I need like bike racks up and all of a sudden, you show up with cones. Like, I didn’t need your creativity there. Okay. I need you to follow the orders, okay? Right. Like, so if I’m hosting the biggest speakers in the movement and I need an intro video done and all of a sudden I see Dolly Parton, like, no, no, no, I need an intro video. I don’t need “Jolene.” Okay?

So like, I appreciate the creativity, but you got to be creative within. By the way, we also have. There’s times to be maximally creative, right? But understand our events, our events team is the greatest in the country in the movement. They deserve so much credit. You guys should come, by the way, you’ll love it. It’s unbelievable. It’s life changing.

And just from the audio visual to the music, to the attendees, to the experience, to the exhibitors, to the sponsors, it’s unbelievable. What we put on is second to none. It’s just one of the many things we do. And like there’s a long lead up, but it’s literally a military operation. It’s a 24 hour operation, right? From the security to the students. We have 5,000 students that we have to look after, right? High school kids from across, coming across the country.

JACK SELBY: So yeah, I will say I’m extremely impressed. I mean, we’ve filmed with a lot of different businesses, corporations, etc. I mean, you do run a tight ship.

CHARLIE KIRK: We do run a tight ship. That is a good way to put it.

JACK SELBY: But for those people that aren’t able to be a deckhand of a tight ship. Those people that 10 to 20% of people that will only ever be positively counterproductive. What do we do with them as a society? Or you can’t just let them job hop for their entire life, right? If they’re like, if they’re never going to make it out of poverty. Poverty is just not good for anybody.

CHARLIE KIRK: Some of them end up in prison. I mean, that’s honest. Unfortunately, I mean, there is a antisocial component to going to prison. I don’t know the answer to that, honestly. Some of them end up getting married and they don’t re enter the workforce. So that’s an answer. But look, this is not a problem unique to America. It seems as if it’s built into the species. Right? I don’t know.

Personal Financial Management

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Now you’ve started making quite a lot of money going from the beginning to where you are now, very blessed.

CHARLIE KIRK: Very blessed.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: How have you handled your own personal finances?

CHARLIE KIRK: Very carefully. I mean, I’m a big investor. I have a great team. That does it. So, I mean, just to be clear, I didn’t take a salary from Turning Point, you say the first five years, so. And I didn’t want it. I mean, all the money went back into the company.

And so I. My test of a founder is always like, what do you pay yourself the first couple years? And unless you have kids at home, or else you have like a family to support, like, a mom that’s sick. You should not be taking money out of the company. Like, it all should be going back in because, I mean, it’s just. It’s so precious at that point in that period of time.

And so I would say that probably over 75, 75 to 80% of all the money I make is invested.

JACK SELBY: What do you invest in?

CHARLIE KIRK: I mean, it’s very diversified from private equity, which is great. So once you’re able to make enough money, you’re able to kind of get access to private equity deals, which is great. I’m super boring with some stuff, too. I’m just like, hey, buy this mutual fund, buy the Dow, buy this index and just kind of put it aside.

I went all in and bought the dip during the tariff stuff. And COVID. Fantastic. During COVID I bought Triple Leverage. Triple Q? No, you. Of course I did. Yeah.

JACK SELBY: What do you mean?

CHARLIE KIRK: Like, what are you doing?

JACK SELBY: You should become a financial advisor, man. You got to start having fun.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Okay. Why was that so obvious to you to go triple Leverage?

CHARLIE KIRK: It was the easiest bet I’ve ever made. In my life. Why you’re in a bet against America, by the way.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: I think the argument was that it could get a lot worse. We know that there’s going to be $2 trillion printed in New York.

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, first of all, that’s true and I was against that. But I mean my whole premise at the time was this is so self inflicted. We decided to shut down the country. A meteor didn’t strike. It’s not an alien invasion. We could reverse this immediately.

And so I said, and by the way, I’m investing for the next 30 years. You’re trying to tell me the Dow is going to remain about 17,000 points in the next 30 years. So basically I was like, I’m buying triple Q, triple lever. I mean, it was like kind of ballsy when you think about it. Yeah.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: I guess what you don’t know is that how far can it go before businesses start flat out?

CHARLIE KIRK: Sure. So to be clear, I did, I started, I started to buy it when I started to see a little bit of signs of hope. Right. Like I try to see the bottom, if I remember correctly, went down to like 17, 18,000, like. And then, yeah, I just kind of plowed a bunch of money into it, by the way. I was like, fine. I wasn’t even married at the time. I had no kids.

Investment Management and Real Estate

JACK SELBY: Do you manage your own money or do you have.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, I have a great guy that does. But I call a lot of shots. Like I make macro decisions, not micro decisions. That’s the way I say I’m not a good micro investor. Buy this company, buy that company. The only thing I’ll say is like when Elon’s company went on Tesla, I want to buy Tesla just as kind of a symbolic philosophical thing because I thought he was being treated so terribly.

But like macro stuff I’ll get involved in. So for example, if there’s like, hey, I want to invest in more artificial intelligence or I think that oil is undervalued, we’ll have a conversation. The guy that does it is a guy named Doug DeGroote. He’s phenomenal. And so he’s just a great family office, really sweet guy.

JACK SELBY: And what about bitcoin?

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh yeah, no. So I don’t buy individual Bitcoin, but ibit, I’m an investor in a thing called Anagram, which is the fundamental technology below crypto. So it’s kind of like buying the plumbing of the crypto industry, if you will. And so like Solana and all these companies, anytime they wanted an ico, you have to basically have the fundamental technology beneath it.

I don’t even understand it that well, other than you’re kind of buying a philosophy, if you will. And then look, I’m in a very unique, blessed place where there is a lot of deal flow that comes my way where a lot of people want to have me invest in stuff and I say no more than I say yes. And then I’ll do a little bit of real estate here or there’s. But no, I mean, look in terms.

JACK SELBY: Of rental properties or what?

CHARLIE KIRK: No, like flipping homes and stuff like that.

JACK SELBY: Do you have like guys that you work partner with to flip homes or.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah, I mean, I do. I have a couple guys and they’ve actually been very successful. Did a couple in Chicago trying to do a couple here in Arizona.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Where do you have the time for that?

CHARLIE KIRK: Look, I mean, that’s the thing. It’s like, it seems like it just.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Takes away from everybody.

CHARLIE KIRK: It does. But like, I mean, if you time’s a very interesting thing and if you meticulously plan out your day, there’s so much waste in people’s schedule, right. How much time do things actually take? Do you really need two hours for a meeting? Do you really need an hour and a half for that?

And so I’m like a time efficiency maximalist and I still get 9 to 10 hours of sleep a night, amazingly so.

Work-Life Balance and Mission Focus

JACK SELBY: Yeah, I mean, we were talking with your team and they were saying you work crazy hours and I was like, why does he work so hard? And their answer was he’s just extremely mission focused.

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s correct. I’m very driven. Yeah.

JACK SELBY: Does it exhaust you ever? To the point of regretting it?

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh, no, no. I mean, so I’m actually finishing a book. So I actually don’t work one day out of the week. So I take a Sabbath every Saturday, turn my phone off. No work, just kids, just family. It’s an amazing blessing. So every Saturday, totally off. It’s amazing how much work you can get done in six days though.

And so I wake up early, you know, wake up around 6, 6:30, you know, again, I usually feel really good in the morning, I don’t have any hangover or any of that stuff. Right. And I just get straight to work and I do my show from 9 to 11 local time in Arizona. Once I’m done, I try to just eat a little bit, maybe take a 10 minute, 15 minute nap maybe. I try not to do more than that. It’s amazing, the power of a 12 to 15 minute nap.

And then I’ll just work all day and then I’ll try to train a little bit, go for a walk. But again, I’m in a very blessed position where things really come to me, where I used to have to go to things.

Natural Drive and Motivation

JACK SELBY: Have you always been this way? Like you’ve had laser sharp focus?

CHARLIE KIRK: Yes.

JACK SELBY: You’ve never felt like you dealt with poor motivation? You’ve always just been that way? You don’t do anything to try to cultivate this motivation and laser focus?

CHARLIE KIRK: No. That’s a really good question. No, I’ve always been very driven. Very, very driven. So that’s a really interesting point. I thought when I first started this, everyone wanted to be equally successful. Everyone had equal drive. So I thought that was an equally distributed ingredient amongst the population, and that was my naive potential.

I didn’t realize that motivation and drive and grit and hustle was actually an exceptional quality. And so then quickly I realized, whoa, I’m just going to outwork everybody. I’m not the most charismatic person. You know, I can speak, I got a good thing going. But I’m not the smartest person. I didn’t go to Harvard Law. Right. I don’t have the highest IQ, but I can compete with the best of them. But I am going to outwork you. I’ll put in more hours, I’ll read more books, I’ll listen to more podcasts. I’ll do more meetings, I’ll travel to more cities. That I can do.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Have you done an IQ test?

CHARLIE KIRK: I did when I was young, yeah.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: And what did it come back at?

CHARLIE KIRK: It was well above average. I don’t want to misspeak on the specifics. But I think it was… I don’t want to say a number because it’s going to get cut up and all that, but it was… No, it wasn’t that high. No, but it was not quite Mensa, but it was high. I mean, I have a good memory. But I’m not an international chess champion, right. I’m not a perfect SAT guy. I had good ACT scores. Right. We took the ACT where I was from, you know, 31, 32, was respectable. It wasn’t a 36, but…

So I’m not dumb. I mean that’s not… But I’m a unique combination now that I can see it, which is, you know, I’m like a heat seeking missile towards what I want to achieve. And that alone can be an incredible differentiator in this space.

Sacrifices and Early Struggles

JACK SELBY: So what are some of the sacrifices or compromises that you make because of that heat seeking missile nature that people may not recognize?

CHARLIE KIRK: My life’s configured now in a way where the biggest sacrifice I have to make is not being home with my kids. And that sucks. I don’t have to do that as much. I get to say no to a lot of stuff. By the way, thank you guys for coming to Phoenix. It’s one of the main reasons why this was… thank you for doing this.

JACK SELBY: Absolutely.

CHARLIE KIRK: By the way, I’m going to do this more with more shows. I’m like, you want to interview me, come to Phoenix.

JACK SELBY: Yeah.

CHARLIE KIRK: Because my kids are my most important thing in my world. My wife, my kids, my relationship with God. Top three things, right? God, wife, kids, in that order. And so that’s a sacrifice that I just am not willing to make. So I’m just saying no to a lot more stuff.

But the early days, it’s so interesting. People think, “Oh, you know, you had a bunch of donors that wanted to give you money.” That’s not the story actually. The story was I was going to find a lot of donors and try to have scrap and hustle and get elementary funding because we could barely make payroll for the first five to six years. Right. We could barely pay the bills. This building that we’re sitting in right now was not even open till our sixth year. Okay. We barely had an office the first couple of years.

And so, yeah, I mean you want to be successful, you think it’s easy. Okay, I’ll show you my flight logs. 200 red eye flights. You want to go do that? 200 red eye flights where you have to go sit and perform and give a speech and be on and go all day and be interesting. 1,200 cable news interviews. Fox News at 3 o’clock in the morning. Fox News at 3:30 in the morning. Get up, get on a flight, conference calls, remember the donor’s name, write a thank you note, show up, report for the donor. They have questions, they’re critical, they’re skeptical. Fine, okay.

It sounds easy, right? And I’m not here to brag on it, but there’s a lot you have to sacrifice for all this. And it’s really easy to look at Turning Point USA because people think they can recreate it. “Oh, yeah, I can recreate…” It’s fine. I mean, look, it’s the Lord’s blessing and providence of all this. I’m telling you, man, there’s a hustle behind the scenes. And not just me, it’s our team too. Our team works their tail off.

Because now what’s so cool is my maniacally driven purpose is now shedding off on people. And not everyone can sustain it. They’re like, “This is too much for me. I’m going to go work for an insurance company.” That’s fine. Because the pace here is first class. That’s why we get more done. That’s why we have more chapters, we have more donors. That’s why our budget is bigger. Because we’re just going to keep on growing, we’re going to keep on expanding. Because we do not settle for mediocrity. Excellence is the only thing that will settle.

Time Management and Productivity Hacks

GRAHAM STEPHAN: What do you do now to save as much time as possible?

CHARLIE KIRK: So I’m a huge scheduler, big time. And so I schedule out days in advance. And so I will block out… this is when I’m going to have conference call time. This is when I’m going to have… this is when I’m going to train. This is where I’m going to eat lunch. I go down to the 15 minute interval. And you know, this is the time that I’m going to go try and go see this friend. This is the time where I’m going to go just turn my phone off and go for a walk. So I’m very, very precise with time.

And then the biggest hack, and you guys know there’s nothing new. It’s called layering. You know this. So anything you’re doing, try to fit two or three things on top of it. So if I’m traveling to go speak, listen to an audiobook, right? I mean, obviously. So then all of a sudden I’m getting two things done at once. If I’m training or working out, okay. I’m also going to be trying to listen to a podcast that I need in preparation.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: I take all my calls on the treadmill, 100%.

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s amazing, right? Or so I try to… I’m a big walker. I think there’s a couple health hacks out here that are right in front of us that nobody ever wants to talk about. Right. I’m a huge believer in sleep. Massive believer. I think it’s totally undervalued. I’m a major believer in walking. I think we don’t talk about walking enough. Just walking, not running, not deadlifting, not cold plunging, just walking. Okay. I’m a big believer in fasting. I think fasting is untapped power. And then I just think not eating terribly, you know, those four things. You’re actually going to be pretty relatively healthy.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: We used to come up with our best ideas taking walks. Oh, walking is a 1, 2 mile walk.

JACK SELBY: There are studies, I think, that show if you have forward movement, like if you’re walking, your brain actually functions at a higher capacity than if you’re sitting sedentary.

CHARLIE KIRK: My best ideas are when I’m walking. My best ideas are when I’m moving and I go for walks with my kids. So that’s another layering. Right? So I mean, you want to talk about triple layering. When my daughter was six months old, she can’t yet communicate, but she’d want to go for a walk and she’d fall asleep. So I’d listen to a podcast while getting a walk, while spending time with my kid. That’s the trifecta. Right? And so I’m really big on that.

And so as far as time, you just also have to be able to say no, there’s so much wasted time. And look, I’m also in a very blessed position. I’m incredibly blessed. Most people don’t have this. A lot of entrepreneurs do. I don’t have to sit around at a desk and just wait for stuff to come to me. I constantly can set the terms of my own schedule. Now, it comes at great cost and great consequence, right? Because with great freedom comes phenomenal responsibility and enormous responsibility.

Financial Structure and Compensation

JACK SELBY: In terms of your own material success, where is the money coming from in terms of percentages? Because I know you have a store, you have a for profit merchandise company, you have your nonprofit, you have your YouTube channel, all of these things. Where’s the money coming from?

CHARLIE KIRK: Very small percentage is my salary at Turning Point USA. So Turning Point USA is… Turning Point USA, Turning Point Action, $120-130 million budget. My salary there is about $300,000 a year and I donate $350,000 back to Turning Point USA. So it’s basically a wash, right? So it literally is a wash. And you might say, “Well, why do you donate it back?” Well, my wife and I, we try to be charitable. We try to give 10% of our income a year. What better place than to give it back to Turning Point USA?

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Why even take a salary?

CHARLIE KIRK: Honestly, that’s a really good question. Number one, it’s very important from just an IRS standpoint, if the CEO’s unpaid, it just looks very weird on the form. But also I do believe in different buckets for different things. I still think I should earn a salary for my work here. And then if I want to give it back, then so be it. It’s a psychological thing more than anything else. It comes in and then if I want to give it back, I can give it back. I know that might sound strange to people, but… and just wasted payroll tax. No, it’s fine. It’s true. I mean all the FICA tax money going out the window, right?

Revenue Streams and Media Success

GRAHAM STEPHAN: It’s better to go back into the company than not.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, the revenue streams is the show. The show is a for profit entity. Charlie Kirk Show Podcast as of the recording right now we’re either number two or number three in all of Apple news. Incredibly blessed. We stream on Rumble every day on X every day. We’re on 250 radio stations on over 400 affiliates. We are on Real America’s Voice every single day. Which is a great fast channel. Which is also on Pluto and Roku.

It easily estimates 2 to 3 million people a day tune into some part of the Charlie Kirk Show. We cut it up, we socialize it and then of course we have a beast of a YouTube channel. We do very, very well on TikTok. And so you kind of compile that all together and then of course I do speaking. I try to write a book a year which you know, I’m able to make personal money on.

The Reality of Wealth

JACK SELBY: Has life gotten a lot better since becoming wealthy?

CHARLIE KIRK: Yes. I mean look, my life has gotten a lot better since I got married and I had kids. I will tell you the best thing about being wealthy is not being poor, not having to worry about money. Like just like not get to a place where you don’t have to worry about money.

It’s funny. When you get to a place where you have, like, billions of dollars, you’re actually worrying about money all the time because you have, like, lawsuits, and it’s like, your identity. I’m not joking like that. It’s kind of like a weird, like, horseshoe, which is like, you have no money. You worry about money all the time, and you have a ton of money. You worry about money all the time. It’s best to be, like, somewhere in the middle where you have, like, a lot of cash flow.

The best thing is this. I purpose what I’m doing, and the money is a nice reward. Like, it’s not. Money is not the number one driver for me. It’s not like, I mean, that, like, I have the skill set where if I quit all of this right now, I could probably go start a company right now, and after 10 years, I could probably sell it for, like, a couple hundred million bucks. That’s not. I mean, that’s not, like, a crazy thing for me to say.

The fact that we’ve started Turning Point USA in action, we have $130 million years in revenue, right? I have the Charlie Kirk Show. If it was all about getting rich, I could go start some app and probably go be successful. What makes me so happy is I get to impact people’s lives. I get to speak truth. I have purpose. I get to help save the civilization, and then I also get to make some money while doing it. And that, quite honestly, is the most enormous blessing. I have the greatest job in the world. I’m the happiest person in the world. I mean that.

Politicians and Financial Responsibility

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Now, in terms of disclosures like this and being so open about your finances. AOC recently disclosed that she has no individual stock holdings. Tim Walz famously said he doesn’t have any investments. Do you think this is just financial irresponsibility, or do you think it’s a good thing that they don’t have a financial interest in maybe some of the measures that they’re putting forward?

CHARLIE KIRK: So, I mean, I’ll talk about the Tim Walz and AOC thing. I don’t know enough about it. She’s young and. But, like, Tim Walz. It’s very interesting. It’s like, so on one hand you’re like, “wow, he can’t be bought.” On the other hand, it’s like, “wow, you’re, like, really bad with money.” Like, you’re kind of old and, like, you don’t have any stocks.

JACK SELBY: Well, he has a pension.

CHARLIE KIRK: Okay, fine. But I mean, like, okay, I get it that he was a football coach or whatever. But I mean, is that a good example? I guess. I mean, again, I just kind of the idea, which is, you’re of that age, you haven’t played into compound interest. You haven’t, like, really tried to. I mean, by the way, you could have. You could have blinded trusts and, you know, different ways of building wealth.

I don’t think you should go as far as Nancy Pelosi and basically like trade stocks after committee hearings. I think that’s probably a little ambitious, right? But I actually prefer my politicians to be successful. I know that’s a weird statement, but people that own nothing, like, own nothing, it might be, like really appealing on the surface, but then I wonder, do they know how wealth is created?

JACK SELBY: Indicative of something deeper that could be interesting.

CHARLIE KIRK: I think so. Again, there’s plenty of good Republicans, I’m sure, that own nothing and they run for office. And that’s great. But generally, I do want someone that knows. Here’s the key. Poverty is human norm. Go to any country around the world. Most people are in poverty. Wealth is the exception. How do you get wealthy is the most important, like, economic issue in front of us. It’s actually a really hard issue to solve.

We know how to solve it. Markets is how you get wealthy. That’s it. Okay? Private property, trade, rule of law. Can’t steal people’s stuff. We’re going to enforce those laws. It works decent, virtuous society, okay? So we know how to go be poor. Not hard. I actually want people in office that know how to create wealth. I think that’s a really important question.

Congressional Trading and Corruption

JACK SELBY: And then the opposite of that, though, with, you know, tickers like NANC that…

CHARLIE KIRK: Track the trade, you should totally follow Nancy Pelosi’s trade. That is grotesque. That’s a totally different thing.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: So how do we crack down on…

CHARLIE KIRK: That and to what degree we should make it illegal. Josh Hawley’s act is very good. I think it’s called the Stock Act or something.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: See, here’s what I think. I made this in a video years ago when the whole Nancy Pelosi tracker came up. I thought it would be a great idea for just anyone in Congress to signal their trades publicly in real time, 24 hours before they plan to make them, and that’s it. And they could trade whatever they want to, but they just have to signal 24 hours in advance. That’s it.

CHARLIE KIRK: I have no issue with that. I think it’s great. I would go a step further. I don’t think any member of Congress should be trading stock, period. Whatsoever.

JACK SELBY: Individual stocks. I think they could buy ETFs.

CHARLIE KIRK: Sure. I think, yes, fine. I think it should be complete moratorium on individual stocks. They know way more than they’re telling you.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: I think that would be impossible to enforce because they would claim that, “well, I don’t trade. I have a financial advisor who’s trading on my behalf in an irrevocable trust that I don’t own.” And they just happened to buy all these defense stocks before Iran started bombing Israel.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah, I know. I just happened to buy…

GRAHAM STEPHAN: That was coincidence.

CHARLIE KIRK: I bought all the pharmaceutical stocks before COVID. Right, exactly. I don’t know the enforcement. I spend a lot of time in D.C. it’s a disgusting city. It’s repulsive. There’s a lot more information that these people know than they’re ever letting on. And they’re getting wealthier while most Americans don’t have access to information. I think your idea is great. The kind of public beacon, if you will. We have insider trading laws for a reason. And what these congressmen do is like the definition of insider trades.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: But the penalty is so small. Like, if they don’t report their trades, they have 30 days to report them. And if they don’t do that, the fees, I think, is either 200 bucks…

CHARLIE KIRK: Or it’s a thousand dollars.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: It’s pennies, basically.

CHARLIE KIRK: It needs to be severe criminal penalties, in my opinion. I’m very populist on this question because, look, most people in this audience, they would love to know what’s going on in a SCIF. They would, which is a secure compartmentalized information facility where there’s no phones. It’s just a bunch of generals giving you classes and information about, I don’t know, a new Wuhan leak or a new war or they would love to know whether or not an electric vehicle mandate is going to be attached to the reconciliation bill or not. And then they’re able to make trades in that information.

So, I don’t know. I’m very populist on this thing. I think we should just put an end to all of it.

Trump’s Meme Coin and Cryptocurrency

JACK SELBY: What do you think about things like Trump’s meme coin? Do you think something like that was an overall smart or not very smart?

CHARLIE KIRK: I don’t know. I know Eric really well. He’s the one that’s pushing it. I mean, look, I know the Trump family, so I’m not going to speak against them. They’re all friends of mine. I don’t know enough about it. I get a lot of questions about it on college campuses. I know people that have made money on it. Like, I don’t know.

I’ll say this. When it comes to, like, crypto in general, I’m very supportive of it. I know it’s largely like a Trump family endeavor. Technically, he did promote it before he became president. I know a lot of people kind of rolled their eyes at it. Here’s my statement. And people can laugh at it. He got shot, so he’s allowed to launch a meme coin. That’s my statement.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: So anybody who gets shot…

CHARLIE KIRK: No, I’m half. It’s sarcasm. Yeah. Look, I’m not going to get into the details defending it. That’s a question for Eric or Don.

Bitcoin and Strategic Reserves

GRAHAM STEPHAN: What are your thoughts on bitcoin?

CHARLIE KIRK: I’m a big fan of bitcoin.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Should the US do a bitcoin reserve?

CHARLIE KIRK: Absolutely. Yes. Yes, the United States should have a strategic bitcoin reserve.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: And who should pay for the bitcoin reserve?

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s a good question. Hopefully some of the tariff money could potentially do that. The reason why I think we should have a strategic bitcoin reserve. I know you guys had Michael Saylor on your show, and I think he’s onto something. There is something called the mass adoption theory, which is over a period of time, like the English language US dollar, things just catch on, and they’re just kind of volitional, and there’s no stopping it. I think bitcoin is that. You got to watch out, though. Quantum computing could potentially crack cryptography.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: But if they do that, then they’re also cracking bank accounts.

CHARLIE KIRK: Right?

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Stock trading.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah. So quantum is the only asterisk on all this. But I think Saylor’s onto something very profound, which is that because bitcoin is a scarce, legitimately scarce resource, that it’s probably going to go nowhere but up. So Saylor makes a very provocative argument that bitcoin could go up 10x over the next 10 years or something like that, which, therefore, if we start a bitcoin strategic reserve, it could pay for the national debt and basically cover our losses on the deficit. But I think the United States government should be invested in crypto. Without a doubt.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: I tend to agree with Michael Saylor that it’s more likely to go to a million than zero.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yes, I think that’s right. And by the way, so you have a problem of the world’s richest people. They don’t know where to put their money. So there’s only so many penthouses in London and Paris that they could buy. There’s only so many ranches in Wyoming that they could buy. And so they. We had this problem. So you create all this money. The money goes upwards to wealth inequality. Point to your earlier point.

The question is then, well, what do rich people do with money? There’s only so many equities they can buy. There’s only so many shares in Nvidia and Apple and Microsoft they could justify. Well, money needs to find a home. And it’s found a home in bitcoin. And so once it has mass adoption and literally the wealthiest families on the planet are starting to park serious monies in bitcoin. And because it’s scarce, it’s easy to transfer and it’s just a winner. Sometimes there’s a mass adoption and it just rises to the surface. And I think bitcoin is that.

The National Debt Crisis

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Speaking of the national debt, at what point do you think it’s going to become a major problem?

CHARLIE KIRK: I think it already is. I think it already is.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Do you see any solvable way that we could address this? Because it seems as though if Trump’s big, beautiful bill passes, it’s just going to get 2 trillion higher.

The Debt and Growth Challenge

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah. So that’s over 10 years. So I do find issue with some of those estimates. I don’t want to get too deep into that kind of wonky stuff. We’ll lose the audience on CBO estimates, Congressional Budget Office estimates. I think we need to cut a lot more spending. I wish more Republicans wanted to agree. I know Donald Trump agrees. He’s just very frustrated with some of the Republicans on Capitol Hill that don’t want to cut it.

So here’s the worst thing we could do, though. The worst thing we could do out of all the options is not grow. So the worst of all the options is not grow. So when you have a big debt that’s bad, not growing with a big debt is catastrophic. Growing with a big debt is somewhat manageable. Growing with cutting your debt is awesome. That would be the best possible scenario.

So the calculus is, okay, we have a big debt. Let’s at least try to have the debt outpace two things. The rate of the increase of the debt to GDP ratio and the rate of inflation. If GDP can grow faster than inflation and grow faster than the rate of the debt to GDP ratio, then we’re in a manageable place.

So that’s what the premise of a lot of these tax cuts of the bill is, right? No tax on tips, no tax on overtime. Right. The depreciation, the extension of the Trump tax cuts, all of which I support, because you need a pro-growth agenda. Because when you’re a debtor nation and you have no growth, then you’re going to be in a really bad spot.

The Fate of DOGE

GRAHAM STEPHAN: What happened to DOGE? It’s just so…

CHARLIE KIRK: I think it’s done, I think. But first of all, I think Elon did a lot of good work. I really did. First of all, I think Elon’s greatest contribution was a philosophical one. I think Elon made us all realize how much waste there is and how much we really need to kind of get into the details of how much the government is inefficient from a technological standpoint, from an efficiency standpoint. So I don’t think it’s over by any means. I think DOGE is a cultural mindset that is going to be hopefully around the Republican Party for years to come.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: It just seemed like Congress didn’t really have that big of an incentive. They don’t do anything about it. What was most surprising, Elon said that he just wanted people to code and write in a description of where the money went. Because right now you could basically just leave it blank, send money and not write what the purpose of the money is for.

CHARLIE KIRK: Correct.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: And he just put something in there and he said he was up against just a wall that they didn’t even mandate that.

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s very complicated. So, yeah, that’s right. And so there is…

GRAHAM STEPHAN: It’s just common sense to just type what it’s for.

Government Waste and Transparency

CHARLIE KIRK: There is so much waste in the federal government, and my hope is that we can start to rein it in in the next couple of months and couple of years. It’s a beast, though, guys. I mean, this is a wild monster that is hard to rein in. And I know that sounds like cope and an excuse, but you have an entrenched, permanent bureaucracy of millions of people, and then you have judges that are preventing, literally the Trump administration from doing some of this stuff.

You have federal judges that are coming in and preventing President Donald Trump from being like, “Nope, I want to lay off these workers. Nope, I want to cut this aid. Nope, I want to cut this.” Which of course is unconstitutional.

So, yes, I mean, it would be nice. Here is the goal. The goal would be we need to blockchain the entire federal government. Put the entire federal government on blockchain. Then, number two, every dime of federal spending online in real time. We should know what everybody is spending in real time. No different than a transparent federal database.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Could that be a national security risk in any way?

CHARLIE KIRK: There are certain things you could black box for sure. But I think that people deserve to know on a day by day, month by month basis, what is the Department of Interior spending? What is the Department of Veterans Affairs spending money on? We should know, are they buying $50 hammers? Are they buying $200 bandages?

I think we… It’s our money. This is the whole problem I have with this whole thing. This is our money. It is your money. We are the ones that earn the money. It is not the government’s money. We are the sovereign. We create the government, we earn the money, and then the government extracts it from us with our consent. Right? Because we vote, we have elections. So we have a right to know where that money goes. It doesn’t magically become the government’s money.

The Warfare-Welfare Complex

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Part of the problem is that there’s no penalty for overspending. It’s like a credit card. The limit keeps getting higher and higher and higher.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, it’s actually even worse than that. There’s an incentive to keep spending more. In fact, the incentive in Washington, D.C. is that you have one wing that wants to spend money on more war, which is the Republican Party warmongering caucus, which I’m at war with. And then you have a whole other thing, which is the welfare caucus.

So you have the warfare welfare caucuses. So the warfare guys want to go invade the world. The welfare caucus wants to go put the entire world on welfare. What could they both agree on? “We’ll authorize your warfare if you authorize our welfare, we all spend more money and we get our pet projects done. And then we’re going to go invade the world.”

And they’re like, “Oh, so the welfare people say, don’t invade the world. But if you invade the world, can we invite the world?” They say it’s okay if you go invade the country, but then we can have a couple million more people into the country. And then the warfare people are like, “We don’t like that. We’ll do that. But the welfare people, but then we got to put them on welfare.”

And literally this is the uniparty bipartisan agreement. Last 30 years, every major public policy budgetary debate comes down to an agreement between the warfare and the welfare wing of the two parties.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: No, there’s no way.

CHARLIE KIRK: First of all, I would not… No, no, I actually…

GRAHAM STEPHAN: That’s impossible.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yes, that’s very…

GRAHAM STEPHAN: The way you described it, I agree with you completely.

CHARLIE KIRK: But the reason I say no, no, no is that I am not a cynic. I’m a super optimist. I’ve never been more optimistic about the country. Let me tell you why. I saw insane doomerism a year ago. “They’re never going to let Trump win. They’re going to try to take him out.” And I saw doomerism die.

And so I think what Trump’s one of his greatest contributions is he’s really pushed the art of the possible. Actually, no. You can do dramatic things. You can change stuff. But yes to your answer. It’s going to be very big. It is climbing a major mountain. Massive.

The US Dollar Crisis

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Do you worry about the US Dollar?

CHARLIE KIRK: Of course. Absolutely.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: And what do you think is the most likely outcome? Because I would like to think positively, but at the same time, I think realistically it’s just going to be pretty…

CHARLIE KIRK: As one of my friends and heroes, Tony Robbins, would say, “I don’t tell you to go to your garden and say, there’s no weeds, there’s no weeds, there’s no weeds. I tell you to spot the weeds and pull them out.” So I’m not delusional. I’m an optimist. I try to find the best case story of how things can be told, then have us have human agency in action to actually do it.

So with the US Dollar. Look, the US Dollar, as the world reserve currency has gone down dramatically in the last 20 years. President Donald Trump is focused on breaking up BRICS. So BRICS is Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa. South Africa is the DEI pick. Why South Africa is considered to be some sort of world… That’s a joke, for the record. Some sort of world currency power. It’s a freaking joke. Okay.

All right. India, easy to peel away. We already have great relations with India. JD Vance did a state visit to India that was very… not very reported. Donald Trump, by the way, he stopped the India Pakistan war. He deserves huge credit for that. That thing was simmering up and was going to be incredible and big.

And so then Brazil. Brazil’s a disaster. Lula is a complete Marxist and communist. Bolsonaro should still be prime minister. So then you have Russia and China. That’s a… So Brazil, Russia, China. The best case telling is we can end this Russian, Ukrainian war and hopefully try to create a little bit of separation in daylight between the ever growing marriage of Russia and China, which is bad for America, it’s bad for the west, it’s bad for the world.

And so we should want the US dollar to remain the world reserve currency status, it is imperative. Our, I think reckless involvement in the United States with the Russian Ukrainian war has only led to de-dollarization. We took Russia out of the swift banking system. Basically we took their dollars out of their bank accounts. We confiscated their dollars.

What does that do to every other nation that uses dollars as their world reserve currency status? We’re no longer a safe haven. We never should have done that, guys. Regardless of how bad Putin is for invading Ukraine and all that stuff. Basically we disincentivized people to trust the dollar as a safe haven. Basically we said, “Oh, if you misbehave, we might take away your dollars.” Which then has led to an incentive structure away from the US dollar which is very destructive.

Top Three Issues Facing America

JACK SELBY: It seems like we’re always facing several cataclysmic level issues at the exact same time.

CHARLIE KIRK: Welcome to modernity.

JACK SELBY: And so I’m just curious, what would you say are the top three issues that if they could be immediately addressed and fixed, we would be leagues better off.

CHARLIE KIRK: I’m going to give you probably some unexpected answers.

JACK SELBY: I have some answers here. Let’s see if you can answer what I have here.

CHARLIE KIRK: Okay, so the question is cataclysmic at actual life.

JACK SELBY: What you would say are the biggest issues facing America right now. And if you could provide three answers.

The Fertility Crisis and America’s Challenges

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah. So number one is the fertility crisis. We’re having less children than ever before. We’re mating less. It’s a major problem. We’re on the verge of a population collapse. It’s a huge issue. No one wants to talk about it.

Everyone’s like, “Oh, I’m single and 32 without kids.” Like, no, you have a moral obligation to get married and have kids, actually. And if you don’t, that’s fine. If you don’t want to, you have to make the case that what we’re doing is more important. And there is a case for that. Like, if you’re a Catholic Father, like a priest. I’m not Catholic. You’re actually helping society or doing something.

But I come from a worldview that you have a moral obligation to help society and to help people through something that you do. It’s not just all about yourself and pursuing your own self interest, and that’s the death of modernity. I think part of it is getting married and having children. I’m a very traditionalist in that way. So that’s number one.

Other cataclysmic things. We are incredibly sick in this country. And this is why I love Bobby Kennedy. We’re a fat country. We’re a sick country. We’re an obese country. We’re a depressed country. We’re a poisoned country. We are not physically fit to fight a war, let alone be able to stand up and even go for a walk for two miles. We are a fat country, and it’s a major problem.

And so I actually think that physiology is directly related to how you act and how you feel. I got that again from Tony Robbins. And so if all of a sudden you’re kind of this obese, sad country, of course you’re going to kind of just fall apart and you’re going to collapse.

The last one is the most provocative of the three is that we have a major issue of this country, that we’ve become a nation of foreigners, and we’re strangers in our own country. We have not assimilated the third world well into our country. We have 20 million illegals that I believe invaded the country under Joe Biden.

And so you kind of come. I could go to 4, 5, 6 if you want me to. But we are increasingly not a nation or a country. We look more like a colony where no one talks to their neighbor and we have to lock our doors at night. We’re like a high. Our cities are all super high crime.

So people say, “Charlie, what does success look like?” I get asked all the time. Very easy. I want fertility rates to go up. I want church attendance to go up. I want people to be less fat. And I want to be able to not have to lock my doors at night. I want to be able to talk to my neighbors and really have a connective bond with them. My final one, I want to feel safe that my daughter can walk the streets of LA unaccompanied at night. That’s it.

Can you walk LA at night? She can walk Tokyo at night. Why can’t you walk New York at night? Or LA or San Francisco or Denver? We are a failed country.

The Newsom Debate

GRAHAM STEPHAN: What did Newsom say to that? I loved your debate with him.

CHARLIE KIRK: Thank you. Yeah, it was something.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Why did he agree to do that? It seems so weird.

CHARLIE KIRK: It was maximally entertaining. It did very, very well. It got millions and millions of views. And so I don’t really know what his incentive was, to be honest. I think he wants to be president, obviously, but he just. So to the left, he looked weak, and to the right he looked fraudulent. And so who did he win over? Exactly, because the right’s not going to believe him. I can’t stand him for obvious reasons. And to the left, they’re like, “Look at this weak guy who’s trying to find common ground with, you know, Charlie Kirk, who think I’m terrible.” So. But to his credit, I mean, there were no gotchas.

But, I mean, look, I’ll kind of go back to the point. I say, it’s a failure of governance if you cannot walk your greatest cities at night. That’s my politics. I know that sounds like. I don’t care if it’s Republican or Democrat, I want to be able to walk America’s greatest cities at night. The five greatest cities in America are New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Louisiana. And what’s maybe Miami. Okay, okay. It’s fine. Whatever. People in Dallas are going to email us, sorry, Dallas is not one of America’s greatest. Dallas is fine, but it’s not one of America’s greatest cities, right?

And, no, Seattle’s not, but Seattle used to be one of America’s most interesting cities. But you should be able to walk your major cities at night. This is insane. You go to Seoul, South Korea. Amazing. You can eat off the streets. You go to Tokyo, go to Singapore. This is a choice. We are deciding to have our cities dangerous, and we shouldn’t put up with it.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: I think it’s really just being tough on crime. But that’s true, and people know they could get away with it.

CHARLIE KIRK: We’re choosing to be soft on crime, though. We’re choosing that it’s a choice. Yeah.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: What was the biggest takeaway from Newsom?

CHARLIE KIRK: His backpedaling on the trans sports issue was fascinating to me. I did not expect that. Where all of a sudden, he kind of agreed with me and then, you know, went super viral where he was saying that, of course it’s deeply unfair for men to compete in female sports. That would kind of insane to. Yeah, I think I would say that was probably one of the biggest takeaways.

JACK SELBY: Have you kept in touch with him since then?

CHARLIE KIRK: I’ve texted him a couple times.

JACK SELBY: Does he get back to you?

CHARLIE KIRK: He does, yeah. My biggest text with him was being like, “Hey, you said that it was no big. You know, you were unfair for trans athletes to win state championships. Why are you not doing anything about it?” Because a man just won the girls championship in the state of California, so.

JACK SELBY: You were still poking the bear.

CHARLIE KIRK: Poking the bear. But I was just calling him out. And by the way, I wasn’t even publicizing it. Now it’s. I find having to publicize it, I was like, “Why are you not doing,” and by the way, during this whole Trump Newsom feud, I’m just like, you know, I was like, fine. I mean, this guy’s a total. He’s a catastrophic fan.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Does he ever reach out to you for help?

CHARLIE KIRK: No, and I wouldn’t. I would. I wouldn’t give him help.

JACK SELBY: You wouldn’t?

CHARLIE KIRK: No. Why? He’s a Democrat.

JACK SELBY: But what if he wanted your insights in terms of policy and you could somehow eke them a little more policy?

CHARLIE KIRK: No, no. For sure. Yes, that’s right. If he’s asking, “How to better govern and help people,” without a doubt, yes. If he’s asking me, “How to get political power,” I will not.

California’s Decline

GRAHAM STEPHAN: What’s your advice to him in terms of turning around the state of California? He would argue the state’s doing fantastic. They’re doing great revenue.

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh, great.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: We left California in 2020. Unfortunately, the issues just got so bad with homeless crime. The taxes were out of this world. They’ve just raised the sales tax in the city of Santa Monica, which is.

CHARLIE KIRK: A tax on guys like you.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: It’s really. It was really bad. It got to a point where Vegas was so welcoming. I made a video announcing that I was moving to Las Vegas and someone from the business administration within the city of Vegas found my email and sent me, “Hey, we’re really happy to have you. If there’s anything we could do.” They were happy to get the business. We love it there.

CHARLIE KIRK: So since Gavin Newsom has no core beliefs, he’s just a slippery politician that wants to be in power. He’s literally somebody that could pass a lie detector test easily. This guy has no guiding principles at all. Just leave the Democrat Party. That’s my advice to him. If you really want to be an elected office that bad, just leave the Democrat Party and just go run as a moderate Republican and just have some sort of conversion story. Like, “Oh, yeah, I’m some sort of progressive.” You just want political power. You have no guiding beliefs at all whatsoever. You’ll say whatever it takes, whenever you want. You’re captured by your left flank. But he won’t do that.

But. And finally, I don’t know. I mean, I would say that more practically. Don’t be afraid, Gavin, to go lock up a bunch of criminals and make your state better. I just. The whole premise of California is so sad. Every time. I love California. I love California. Every time I land in California, I say the same thing to my team. It is a shame that they messed up heaven on earth. It is without the most. The most beautiful place in the world, right? I mean, Orange County. Can you think of a better microclimate than that? The mornings are just like gifts from God.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: They do have pockets. Orange county has gotten gorgeous.

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s like Santa Barbara. You have certain cities 61 degrees in the morning. It’s just like, you just can. Anything is possible that’s kind of got this miss.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: But I think they’re sending all the people to LA. It seems like LA is kind of like the stomping grounds for a lot of the issues. And then other cities are actually getting better.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah, I hope so. I think Orange county has some real. Some bright spots, but generally, look, LA is the beast of California, right? And LA is just a dump. It is just disgusting. And it’s too bad I say that it never used to be that way, L.A. used to be a really interesting city 30 to 40 years ago. Yes, it had crime.

But a better example of a city that has fallen apart is the city that he was the mayor of, San Francisco. When I was a kid, I could walk the streets of San Francisco. It was gorgeous, it was fun, it was unique, it was interesting, it was artistic, it was boundary pushing, but it was safe. You would again, Gavin Newsom, if you’re listening to this, would you let your son walk the streets of San Francisco unaccompanied at 1am? No. You wouldn’t? Of course not. You’re a failure. If your own kids can’t walk your city at night, then what have you done?

I don’t want to hear about how you oversaw gay weddings or whatever stupid thing that you’re talking about or, “Oh, yeah, we’re taking you to record revenues.” I’m sorry your son can’t walk the streets of the city that you were in charge of. You’re a disgrace. Don’t lecture me about how you’re some sort of progressive beacon.

JACK SELBY: How much of that do you think is Gavin Newsom’s fault versus other people’s fault?

CHARLIE KIRK: He was the mayor of the city. I put a lot of fault on mayors. I think mayors have a lot of power and I know this cause of New York. Look at Bloomberg and Giuliani and how well they did in New York versus De Blasio. New York crime went up, it got dirtier. Homelessness went up.

Mayors are actually some of the most powerful people in the country that we don’t spend enough time or attention on. The police are responsible, responsive to the mayor. The building codes is Franceful, the mayor, the homeless, mayors are very, very powerful. So he was mayor of San Francisco, then he ran for lieutenant governor and then he ran for governor and he was mayor of San Francisco during the collapse of San Francisco, while it started to go down when all this progressive woke stuff started to pop up.

Young People and Religion

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Now you get a lot of people just on the street and you have a good pulse of what’s really going on with younger people. What’s something that you’ve noticed that mainstream media either gets wrong or it’s just out of touch.

CHARLIE KIRK: I would say that something that mainstream media really misses with young men especially is they desire to be more religious than I think they give them credit for. There is a return to religion. You’re seeing a little bit of these news reports, but there’s definitely a curiosity for God and for going back to the church in a very serious and significant way.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: What’s causing that?

The Failure of Modernity and the Search for Meaning

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, modernity is a failure. I mean, modernity has given us a lot of great stuff, right? I mean, praise God that we have modern medicine and surgery and that we have antibiotics. These are all amazing things, right? No one debates that.

But modernity has… The core of modernity is what you are in charge of your own life and you could do whatever you want to do, and you’re the center of the universe. Sounds good. Leads to highest depression ever, highest rates, highest anxiety and hopelessness.

In Viktor Frankl’s amazing book, “Man’s Search for Meaning,” he said that outside of food and water, the greatest need for man is meaning. And so we see modernity constantly changing around us. At all times, things are changing, people changing their genders. There’s constant change.

And I think young people want to go to a church environment that isn’t changing. They want to go to a place that is stable, that is consistent, that is beautiful, that is ancient, that is everlasting, and that is eternal.

The Biggest Non-Issues vs. Real Problems

JACK SELBY: What would you say is the biggest non-issue that people make out to be a massive issue? You already spoke about the issue that you think is extremely important that people don’t really talk about, which is the birth rates.

CHARLIE KIRK: What about the issue, by the way? The birth rate’s so big. I mean, the fact that no one wants to talk about it, it’s just not really discussed. Yeah. So, okay, great. So I would say it’s not a surprise, but I would say racism, it’s the most ridiculous.

I mean, we are the least racist country ever to exist in the history of the world. I don’t like racists. You don’t like racists? I don’t like running into them. I have no tolerance for it. I would put it as issue number 22,800 on issues of what’s pressing facing America.

How about the fact that our public schools can’t educate our kids and we can’t find a single kid that can read at grade level in Maryland or Chicago? Probably a bigger deal than racism. How about the fact that in this country that we have an average family cannot afford to go buy groceries in major cities. They have to go into debt. These are much major problems. Young people can’t buy homes. The dollar is being deteriorated. We have 110,000 drug overdoses every year. That’s a much bigger problem than racism.

And we have entire social and cultural institutions that are trying to propagandize us. That racism is the biggest problem. I’m sorry, it’s not. In fact, I would argue that not only is it not a problem, it’s a massive psychological operation against us to not actually talk about the major economic, cultural and political forces that should be addressed in this country.

Nature vs. Nurture in Political Beliefs

GRAHAM STEPHAN: And what do you think makes someone conservative or liberal in the first place? Do you think it’s nature and nurture?

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s both, obviously. Again, I’ve actually, the older I get, I do give a little bit more. I give a little bit more weight to community than I did probably 10 years ago, just because I see how much my daughter and my son absorb around me and my wife. So I get how you’re a product of your environment, but it’s not. You’re not solely a product of your environment. You’re not. You have agency, you have decision, you have free will. You can break free of your environment. You’re not only your environment. That’s very important. You’re not only your upbringing.

So concern. It’s just a worldview difference. So left wingers generally look at things through a prism of what they look at a prism of oppressor, oppressed, whereas we look at prisms of things versus just and unjust, right and wrong and good and evil and moral and immoral, where they look at things as more as who’s in power and who is not in power. Which group wants sympathy, deserves sympathy, and what other group deserves sympathy.

But look, we know that people that tend to be liberal tend to have temperament that is far more on the openness and acceptance of how people are and how they act. Where conservatives, we tend to be much more order and discipline and let’s just say structure driven.

A great example of this is crime. So we as conservatives see someone that commits a crime and we don’t think they’re necessarily a product of their environment. We say, you shouldn’t have committed that crime, you’re being an idiot, you’re going to jail. Whereas liberals like, well, we must have sympathy for them because the schools are broken. And of course there is some truth that you still decided to commit the crime. It’s an insult to every other person that’s not committing a crime that comes out of that environment to act as if that person should be getting an exception.

Voting Rights and Youth Engagement

JACK SELBY: As someone who works very closely with young voters, do you think that we should change the rights for who can vote? Should we increase the age? Should we apply a civics test to it?

CHARLIE KIRK: I mean, probably not. I’ll say this, we won the youth vote this last cycle. And it’s funny, we in certain states, not across the country. And it’s just an amazing thing that you can actually win the youth vote and you could do it with mass virality and mass popularity and reaching out in ways that people would never have imagined. And so, no, I probably wouldn’t put any more restrictions on.

Modern Dating Challenges

JACK SELBY: You mentioned earlier in this podcast that one of the biggest sacrifices that you have to make is running this massive business at the same time as trying to be the leader in a family.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yes.

JACK SELBY: I’m curious. What do you think is the biggest issue with modern dating as a single guy? I would love some advice. You know, Graham, he got married a year or so.

CHARLIE KIRK: Congratulations.

JACK SELBY: So he’s looking to start a family.

CHARLIE KIRK: Have as many kids as you can afford, probably 2. Have more than you can. That’s what I should say. What is wrong with modern dating? Yeah, the biggest problem with modern dating is very interesting. We had a women’s summit. The young ladies all raised their hands. They’re like, how many of you are unhappy with the dating pool? Every woman raises their hand. I’m like, funny. All the young men I talk to are unhappy with you too. So who’s wrong?

JACK SELBY: Those seem like kind of select groups of people, though. You know, if you’re asking women that are attending a women’s summit, they might be in a very specific…

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah, I mean, I would say generally, I hear more complaints about the dating pool then, you know, wow, there’s so many options. Maybe you’re right. I don’t know. Maybe.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: I think it’s more of an options issue, is that you could go online and just. If you don’t like someone sort of working through it, it’s just you go back and you start swiping again.

What Women Need to Change

CHARLIE KIRK: So let me. What’s the problem with women? And then I’ll go to the problem with men. The problem with women is that many of them, a have unrealistic expectations of the man that they want. A lot of them. And I deal with this all the time. I want a guy that’s earning a million dollars a year, and he’s 6 foot 4, and I want him to have a perfect jaw. And I’m like, yeah, that’s never going to happen.

How about. By the way, you know, where on your list is, I want someone who will be a good father or someone with good character. So I guess, really disgusting actually that you just want someone that’s super rich and looks good. Why don’t you want someone that’s going to be loyal to you, not cheat on you? You like. Oh, yeah, I want that too. Okay, got it. So basically you want Ken Barbie doll. And then you’ll have all the good virtues. Notice they don’t. They don’t lead with the virtue. And a lot of things lead to that.

But number two is women need to be very clear that we need to tell women more clearly that if you do not have children before the age of 30, there’s only a 50% chance that you will have children.

JACK SELBY: That’s a fact.

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s a fact. You can fact check me out.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Isn’t that though that women are becoming very intentional about whether or not they want to have kids and just. It’s more socially acceptable?

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah, but they’re miserable because of it though. I mean, it’s not just my. You go fact check me. Put the numbers up. The most depressed people in America are women without children. They’re the most likely to be on antidepressants. They’re the most likely anxious. Again, people that experience severe depression are people. People that say they are very unhappy are people. Young, single women in their early 30s without children.

Who are the happiest women in America? Married women with children. I think there’s a. And by the way, of course they have the agency to do that. I’m not trying to make a law you must get married and have kids, but I think that we’ve gone wrong here. That women should prioritize family and children way above career. That they should try to find their husband before they’re 25. That they should try to get married way younger.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: This is probably the fertility, but that also goes back to just finances.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, that’s totally agreeing.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: A husband going out, making a salary to have a stay at home life.

CHARLIE KIRK: I completely agree with that. That’s the best argument argument. It’s not a winner argument, but it’s the best argument. Because at some point you go to sub-Saharan Africa, they have eight kids and they live in a dirt hut. You can figure it out.

Having children, I believe, is a blessing. The Lord is the most amazing thing. We should try. You should try to have as many children as you can. Much more important than traveling to Thailand or having a big apartment or a bunch of cats. Okay. Having children are a gift from the Lord.

So but as far as the dating pool problem, so young ladies, they need to be very clear about what they’re expecting in a man and date with the intent to marry. And not just date to have a good time. And quite honestly, both need to do this. But young women need to do a much better job of saving themselves for marriage. They need to be, they need to prioritize purity. Again, young men need to too. But if young women do it, then young men will.

What Men Need to Change

JACK SELBY: So if that’s what the women need to do in order to make themselves worthy of dating, what do you think is the main thing men need to do to make themselves worthy?

CHARLIE KIRK: The most attractive quality in a young man that young women can’t ever articulate is self control.

JACK SELBY: So how does this look in application?

CHARLIE KIRK: A woman needs to be able to know that you can control your impulses. When things get really crazy, they can’t articulate it, but that’s what they want. So for example, they want to be able. When you go on a date, can you control your mouth? Can you control your tongue? Can you control your eye? Are you going to cheat on her? Are you going to have a wandering eye? Are you going to get drunk every night? Are you going to go into a drug abyss? Women can’t always put that into words. But that differentiates a boy from a man. A boy is someone that has no self suit.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: I would argue it’s confidence and ambition. And if you have those qualities, I think everything else falls into place because you have to have self control. If you’re going to be ambitious, sure.

CHARLIE KIRK: To have a North Star confidence is true. Look again, it’s just if you look at it though, you can be very confident, ambitious, but you could also then cheat on your wife 10 years later, right? So you have to be able to control your flesh. We as men have very different problems than women, right? Different temptations.

As men, we have problems controlling our flesh. That’s why adultery is literally in the Ten Commandments. You had to command an entire people not to cheat on their wives. It was easy. God would not have to command us not to do it. And so when men are dating, if you want to make yourself more attractive to a woman, first of all, demonstrate self control. And also women want to be able, they want to be taken care of. I know this is super provocative. Deep down they want a man to be able to provide for them financially.

JACK SELBY: Should a man pay on the first date 100%?

CHARLIE KIRK: What kind of a wuss beta male is splitting the check? Who are you? Do you agree with me?

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Listen, with Macy.

CHARLIE KIRK: I paid for the check on the first.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Yeah, the first.

CHARLIE KIRK: I’m just sorry. I would go into debt and scrub dishes before letting a woman pay.

JACK SELBY: Yeah. Let’s see.

CHARLIE KIRK: Let’s see. What? What is it?

JACK SELBY: So didn’t you go on a date years ago, like a decade ago with this woman whose mom gave you $20 to take her to the movie theater?

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Yes. Yeah, I made money on that date, actually.

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh, so there’s a good, funny. No, no.

JACK SELBY: Explain how you made money on a date.

CHARLIE KIRK: That sounds different, though. That’s not what we’re talking about, though.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Yeah, yeah, her mom gave her. And by the way, this was in high school.

CHARLIE KIRK: Okay, so that’s what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about, like, 24 years old, like, serious dating. Right.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: I split the check quite a lot.

CHARLIE KIRK: So I’m sorry. I don’t mean to offend you. You guys are great. That’s incomprehensible to me. I think that’s…

GRAHAM STEPHAN: To me. I thought it was a great financial decision.

CHARLIE KIRK: I’ve just… Okay, so from your prism, I totally get that. And you have really good financial discipline. I’m sorry. I would be so humiliated if I… I mean, I find that to be like the greatest beta male humiliation.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Save money.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, no. The idea that a woman that you’re trying to court now, if it’s like a friend thing or as…

GRAHAM STEPHAN: A first date, you don’t even know if she doesn’t matter.

CHARLIE KIRK: I’m sorry.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: I see.

CHARLIE KIRK: By the way, that money you save is not worth the honor that you compromise.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: It is such a big deal.

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s a massive deal. I’m not trying to give it.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: But.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, I don’t know.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: But here’s the thing.

CHARLIE KIRK: You know, in.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: In fairness, for your point with Macy, I paid for the whole first date.

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, hold on. Why are you that one, though?

GRAHAM STEPHAN: I think I was at that point, I was at a level where that felt like the right choice to make. But throughout my early 20s.

CHARLIE KIRK: Was it because you felt serious with her or…

GRAHAM STEPHAN: I was also in a point where I was ready to be able to plan. Yes.

CHARLIE KIRK: Legit. I get that early 20s.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: I still think you saving five bucks here and there. I would do it.

CHARLIE KIRK: I would go to swim. You’re manic with saving money.

JACK SELBY: I am.

CHARLIE KIRK: We have Blake on my team. Is like, you. Yeah, no, he goes and he’ll eat the snacks for lunch to save money here at…

GRAHAM STEPHAN: You know, it’s funny. I brought food from home.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, no, that’s today, by the way.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: And coffee from home.

Traditional Values in Dating

CHARLIE KIRK: Frugality is a virtue. Yeah, but so we as Christians believe that there is an order of virtues and above frugality is honor. And so we as men must lead, we must provide. Under no circumstance ever should a man ever let a woman pay for a date or you ever. Ever. No.

JACK SELBY: Even on the third, fourth, fifth…

CHARLIE KIRK: What if it’s no stage?

JACK SELBY: Okay, well, let me…

CHARLIE KIRK: Period.

JACK SELBY: Well, let me…

CHARLIE KIRK: Okay, so what kind of world are we living in?

JACK SELBY: Well, hold on a second. I agree with you. If I’m dating a girl, I would pay for everything.

CHARLIE KIRK: Everything?

JACK SELBY: Yeah, everything. However, I could see for other people that might be in a different financial position. You know, you pay for 10 dates, and then she’s like, “You know what? I want to treat you.”

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, that’s crazy. That’s totally different. No, no, what we’re talking about is like, “Oh, we’re going to alternate.” Once you’re serious and she wants to take you out to something for a nice dinner. And you might, by the way, if you have the intent to marry, you’re already kind of blending finances. I get that psychologically. But if you’re like, “Oh, we’ll take turns like, oh, well, you know, you pay this time, I pay this time.”

JACK SELBY: What’s your advice to a girl who’s… who? The guy she’s currently seeing…

CHARLIE KIRK: He says that, oh, do not marry that man.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: But here’s the thing. I feel like they should always break it off, but they should offer. They should pull out the credit card.

CHARLIE KIRK: A woman, of course, just…

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Just to offer.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, it’s a…

GRAHAM STEPHAN: It’s a nice gesture.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, no. By the way. No, no, no. This is feminism. Feminism is that you have to be this self independent. This is a nice gesture. It’s you trying to be egalitarian. No, you, as women, should want to be provided for. In fact, you should have an expectation that you, as a woman are so important and so critical and so necessary and beautiful that it shouldn’t even be a question that if you’re in a date now, if it’s a business lunch or friend zone. 50-50. We’re not talking about that. Right?

All of a sudden you’re like, “Hey, I want to buy insurance,” or you’re going to… you know, “I want to go do business.” I totally do. I still think the man should pay. But that’s that.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: But see, to me, when I was dating, it would be a huge turnoff if the check comes and she just looks at it and then looks at me and looks at the check. I totally disagree.

CHARLIE KIRK: I totally disagree.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: I at least want to see. Like, I’m reaching for something, and I’m…

CHARLIE KIRK: Like, no, I want a woman that wants to be led by a man. I don’t want a woman that’s all of a sudden going to be competing financially in a marriage. I don’t want a woman that’s going to be questioning financial decisions or a woman that’s going to be…

No, the man is the leader of the household. The man is the leader of all the financial decisions. The man is the primary… should be the primary provider. Again, there’s exception to this. That’s all. “Oh, Charlie, you’re so sexist.” Sorry. It worked for 2,000 years, for 5,000 years, and it should work again. And by the way, what we’re doing right now is not working. Let me just repeat again, this is not working. And I’m not trying to bash you. This is fun. It’s in really good style.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: No, I love the banter.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, it’s great. But this idea. If a woman on a date were to pull out a credit card to go pay for something, I would be like, “Oh, so you’re like one of those boss babes.”

JACK SELBY: No, that’s… that’s not what that’s saying. That is…

CHARLIE KIRK: No, that is completely catastrophic.

JACK SELBY: I think if I’m on a date and she reaches for it, I just think, “Oh, that’s really nice. You’re trying to be kind here. You’re trying to alleviate what you perceive to be a financial burden on me.”

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s a generous interpretation.

JACK SELBY: And so…

CHARLIE KIRK: So…

GRAHAM STEPHAN: But bring something to the table.

JACK SELBY: And so I think women are not…

CHARLIE KIRK: Bringing money to the table. They’re bringing something else.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: It’s a nice gesture.

JACK SELBY: I agree with Graham. I think it’s a nice gesture. However, I agree with you. I think the guy should pay.

CHARLIE KIRK: I think the woman going into that should have an expectation that the man takes care.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: But should…

JACK SELBY: Should she be grateful if the guy takes 100? Oh, okay.

CHARLIE KIRK: Because… Oh, no, it should be immense gratitude. No, no, no, no. The woman should be like… You know what she should say? She’s like, “Thank you so much for doing that and not having to put this unnecessary pressure on me. Because you have just… you’ve just freed me.” That’s what women want.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Freed me.

CHARLIE KIRK: I would say no. No. Or like… Do you know how many women are secretly miserable that they have to be as financially successful as men? A lot. It drives them insane. Deep down, a lot of women want to be mothers. They want to be wives.

JACK SELBY: I tend to agree with that.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah. Not every woman, by the way. If you want to… if you… But if you want to go be a boss babe, go do that. Like, with a free society, there’s a lot of great people that… But generally, we have overcorrected. Okay? We have a lot of women that deep down want to go be moms, and they would love to have their man come in and just grab the check, be like, “No, I got it.”

And by the way, you know what? They see that as a signal it’s going to be okay. When the bullets start firing and there’s chaos and things start falling apart, this man is going to protect the family. Boom. Throw it on the table. Wallet on the table. No, even better.

JACK SELBY: Paying 26% interest on that.

CHARLIE KIRK: Got to be even more alpha.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: You go to the…

CHARLIE KIRK: You go to the waiter before the meal, and you just give them the credit card. It’s not even a conversation. It’s paid for. It’s done. You don’t even allow it to be a thing that is introduced there.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: I would agree with that.

JACK SELBY: See, I actually, I agree with that.

CHARLIE KIRK: Alpha is like, you go straight up where you are, like, smooth move. And the girl is so stunned, and she’ll be like, “Oh, don’t we have to be…” like, “No, I got it. It’s done. Boom.” Are you kidding? From a woman’s perspective, they’ll be like, “That’s the most attractive thing ever.”

JACK SELBY: I would love to hear some woman’s perspective in the comments. I think they’re going to be agreeing with you for the most part.

CHARLIE KIRK: If they disagree, it’s fine. But you’ll end up with… By the way, some women want to marry weak men because they are the boss.

Dating and Marriage Advice

GRAHAM STEPHAN: What other tips do you have? That was a good suggestion.

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh, I have a lot of tips. So for marriage or for dating? Both.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Let’s start with dating and then move our way to marriage.

Dating and Marriage Philosophy

CHARLIE KIRK: So in dating, look, I don’t. I do not think you should have sex before marriage. I know, I know. That’s a provocative take. I think sex is holy. And by the way, it’s not just a religious take. I actually think that if you introduce sex into dating, then all of a sudden there’s kind of like a dilution of what exactly will be the ultimate physical crescendo of marriage. So you actually make a rational, reasonable, non-religious argument for that. Anyway, that’s a whole other topic that we could discuss another time. But I will defend that. I actually think bring back purity. Bring back saving yourself for marriage.

Okay, but other things is this. You should go on a road trip with the person you’re dating. It’s very important. You should find uncomfortable, high pressure travel situations. That’s not just flying first class to Aruba. And you should try to be in places of discomfort intentionally with who you are dating and you’ll find out a lot with that person.

Number three. This is going to sound incredibly sexist. I don’t care if it is a woman that you want to get married to and she says that she wants to be a traditional wife. See if she’s actually up to it. Have say, “Okay, treat me, cook me a meal.” I’m not kidding.

JACK SELBY: No, I think that’s…

CHARLIE KIRK: No, no, no, honestly. She says she wants to be a traditional wife. And by the way, be like, does she enjoy it? This is important though. And then ask her, no, I’m not even. Is she a good cook? Be like, “Did you enjoy doing that? Was…” And she like, “Oh, I loved it. I loved getting the ingredients. I loved looking at the cookbook. I love the recipe. I love thinking about you when I was cooking the food.” You’re like, “Okay, this is going to be awesome,” right? Or otherwise. She’s like, “It was a disaster. Was this.” I’m like, “Okay, well then we might have a little bit,” you know.

And by the way, I’m not saying that every wife has to cook every meal for husband, but honestly, a lot of women out there want to do that. A lot of women want to provide for their man in that way. They want to run the house, they want to shepherd the kids.

Premarital Counseling and Important Questions

Going into marriage, though I’m a big believer in premarital counseling, I think that there are several questions that are not answered when most people go into marriage. That should be answered. And I might freak you out with this because I don’t know if, you…

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Know, we did this.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah, okay, great.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: I looked at every divorce statistic and we did everything we could to lessen the chances of a divorce.

CHARLIE KIRK: So, yeah, money is number one, right? Who’s going to handle the finances? Here’s one that you might not have done that you should do while you’re still in the honeymoon. Are you going to have an open or closed house?

GRAHAM STEPHAN: I don’t even know what that is.

CHARLIE KIRK: See, it’s big. So were you raised in a house where a lot of friends came over all the time, or were you raised in a house where almost no friends came over a normal amount?

GRAHAM STEPHAN: It wasn’t yet, you know, open or closed. It was, you know, maybe once a week we’d have a…

CHARLIE KIRK: Or something like that. Do you know what kind of house your wife was raised in?

GRAHAM STEPHAN: Probably about the same.

CHARLIE KIRK: Okay. It’s an important question because I was raised in a very closed house. Right, right. I know people that are raised in open houses and it’s destroyed their marriages. You know the type where they’re always having people over. Yeah, that was my family. Yeah. Okay, so you get that. Yeah. Imagine if you were to marry a closed house person and all of a sudden you were like, “Hey, we’re going to constantly have a stream of people.” And you don’t talk about that before marriage. All of a sudden you’re like, it’s total chaos for a closed house person because they’re raised in a place where not evenings are very quiet.

JACK SELBY: Make sure.

CHARLIE KIRK: This is another important. Make sure that you get along with each other, that you really like each other, not just love each other, that you like spending time with that person. One of my favorite words in the English language is like, it’s very unique. Only the English language actually has that. Do you like spending time or do you just love that person? That’s because liking is like, “Hey, do you. Can you talk to that person seven hours uninterrupted on a park bench if you needed to?” Or is it just kind of an annoyance and is it just purely physical?

Other questions and other pieces of advice that I think are really important in laws matter. They really do. They shouldn’t always necessarily be deal breakers, but boy, you should know the in laws because you know your wife will take the form of the mother more times than not. So you should at least get along with her. In law. Kind of know the in law.

Children. How many children? When are you going to have children? Is it a priority? Will it be early? Will it be late? Religious questions. Are we going to raise them religiously? Are we going to raise them secular?

Other questions that I think are really important that actually don’t always get flushed out. How many vacations are we going to take? What type of vacations? Are we an RV family? Are we a go to a private, you know, island family? Are we going to splurge on one vacation a year or are we going to do 3 or 4? This is important before you get married. All of a sudden you’re kind of in the marriage thing and you’re like, “Hey, I just booked us a vacation.” Like what I didn’t want to. That’s not. Because it’s different philosophies of time off.

Last one. Which is the biggest you want the biggest of all. What are acceptable and unacceptable vices for our marriage? For example, is it acceptable for, you know, the husband to smoke a cigar? Has she smelled cigar before you get married and does she know what that is? Will marijuana be allowed in the marriage? I would say no, of course. Is it okay for alcohol to be around? If yes, how often will you drink on weeknights? Are more than one drink acceptable? Will we drink socially? Will you drink once you have kids? Will you drink around the kids?

Here’s another question. Will you watch TV at night? Will you be okay if you know there’s R rated kind of sexual nudity that your partner is watching is completely off limits for your relationship? I think it absolutely should be. You should talk about that because some couples are perfectly okay with what I think is kind of weird, to be honest. Right. These are questions that honestly all the time that people do not always flush out before marriage. In the course of dating though, I could go on for infinite.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: No, I really enjoy this.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah, again, we have an amazing marriage, my wife and I. Obviously not, no marriage is perfect, but we actually like each other. We prioritize date night. We’re actually doing it right after this tonight, which is awesome. But I find so often that people in dating don’t date with the intent to marry. And when they end up do wanting to marry, they don’t even ask the tough questions before they get married.

Rapid Fire Questions

JACK SELBY: Can we do a couple rapid fire questions real quick?

CHARLIE KIRK: Okay.

JACK SELBY: What’s your biggest insecurity?

CHARLIE KIRK: Forgetting something I should know?

JACK SELBY: Will you run for president?

CHARLIE KIRK: Not running for president.

JACK SELBY: What’s more dangerous, ignorance or apathy in voters?

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh, apathy for sure.

JACK SELBY: Should there be a maximum age to be president?

CHARLIE KIRK: No.

JACK SELBY: What is a worse policy idea universe. Universal basic income or open borders?

CHARLIE KIRK: Open borders.

JACK SELBY: One government agency you’d shut down right away?

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s a great one. Department of Education.

JACK SELBY: Would you rather have dinner with AOC or Bernie?

CHARLIE KIRK: AOC?

JACK SELBY: Is it a sin to fly Spirit Airlines?

CHARLIE KIRK: A sin? No, but whoever, whoever, whoever started Spirit Airlines is in great defiance to God.

JACK SELBY: What’s worse for society? Weed or. Do you think you could win in a fistfight against Gavin Newsom?

CHARLIE KIRK: Probably not, if I’m being honest. I don’t think so.

JACK SELBY: Do you believe in aliens? Maybe Debater or podcast.

CHARLIE KIRK: I like this. I like podcast. It’s way better. It’s more.

JACK SELBY: Human censorship or chaos. What’s more destructive?

CHARLIE KIRK: Censorship, without a doubt. Absolutely.

JACK SELBY: Do you have a random pet peeve?

CHARLIE KIRK: I have a lot of pet peeves, actually. One of my pet peeves that I can’t. I literally cannot stand. I’m actually a violator of it is when I’m trying to talk to somebody and then they check their phone. I’m really bad with that with my team. So I’m sure you guys. It bothers you, but. Yeah, I got to be a lot better about that.

JACK SELBY: And finally.

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh, sorry. No, no. And then when people say “at the end of the day,” they don’t even know what they’re saying when they say it, it’s just.

GRAHAM STEPHAN: At the end of the day, it’s just.

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s just literally a linguistic. Linguistic crutch is all that it is.

JACK SELBY: Linguistic crutches are very annoying, in fairness.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yes. And that is one that drives me nuts.

JACK SELBY: If everything completely goes away, how do you want to be remembered?

CHARLIE KIRK: If I die, everything just goes away.

JACK SELBY: How would you. If you could be associated with one thing, how would you want to be remembered?

CHARLIE KIRK: I want to be. I want to be remembered for. For courage, for my faith. That. That would be the most important thing. Most important thing is my faith. My.

Closing

JACK SELBY: Charlie Kirk. Thank you so much.

CHARLIE KIRK: You guys do a great job. I wish it could be longer. This has been amazing, so we would.

JACK SELBY: Love to do this again.

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