TRANSCRIPT: Jefferson Fisher on The Mel Robbins Podcast

And so I decided I was going to teach people on something that I feel I know better than anybody in my world, and that’s how to communicate the lessons that I’ve learned.

So I got my phone in my car and made my first “How to Argue Like a Lawyer” video.

MEL ROBBINS: Wow, and the rest is history.

JEFFERSON FISHER: And the rest is history. So it’s been almost two years.

MEL ROBBINS: And millions and millions of followers online. And why do you think people follow you?

JEFFERSON FISHER: The videos are short. They’re very succinct. And they give them that lightbulb moment of, “Oh, I could do that.” What I talk about is very practical. What I talk about is not hypothetical. It’s not based on some study. It is in the trenches. It’s real conflict that we deal with from opposing attorneys to having to argue before judges.

You have your own clients that may or may not agree with you. So it’s communicating at all different levels that’s very practical and relatable and giving it to them in a way that they’re like, “Hey, this guy, he’s an attorney, but yet he’s in his car and he’s talking to me like I’m a real human. It’s not that hard.”

Changing How We Argue

MEL ROBBINS: Well, what I love about what you’re saying, and this is true, is that most of us, I believe, especially when we are either uncomfortable or we have to have a difficult conversation, we focus on this idea that you have to win.

And a lot of people see lawyers and they think, “Oh, it’s all about arguing and winning”, and you forget the fact that, no, you actually have to navigate judges and juries and court officers and clerks and other attorneys that you’re going to see, and the ability to have people listen is just as important. What do you think most of us get wrong about how we communicate?

JEFFERSON FISHER: That arguments are something to win, not something to unravel. I teach that arguments are knots in the conversation, and what gets worse is when you pull your way and I pull my way, versus looking at it and saying, “Help me with the knot. How can we unravel this? How can we smooth it out?”

Never win an argument. If somebody’s telling you or teaching you or you read some book on how to win every argument, they’re just selling you something.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay, then let me give you an example. You ready?

JEFFERSON FISHER: I’m ready.

The Birthday Dinner Example

MEL ROBBINS: Last night we go out to dinner. It is my mother-in-law’s 87th birthday.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Happy birthday.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes, happy birthday to Judy. And so we’re out with the family, and I, of course, have a conversation that happened at the table. I said something that I immediately wanted to take back. My husband and I are now leaving. We’ve all been there, right? You have stuck foot in mouth.

Your partner is now angry with you. We get into the car. I was not driving. Somebody else was driving. So we hop into the Uber, and Chris turns to me and is like, “Why did you have to say that?”

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

MEL ROBBINS: And so can you explain in this situation that I think we can all relate to, where now you are about to have an argument with somebody, and you are describing that arguments are like a knot. So what do I do in this situation where I’m about to go into full-on defend-me mode? How do I get out of this mess?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Well, sometimes it just takes a big shovel. But any time there’s miscommunication, it is because what is sent is not what is received. So what you thought you said is not what they heard. And often you’re just on different frequencies. If I were to turn my radio to 90s country, which I love, and you turned it on, I don’t know, let’s say 2000s R&B, you’d be going, “This sounds great.” I’m like, “No, this sounds great.” And we’re still rocking to our own sounds, and we’re not on the same channel.

And so when you’re in that back seat and you’re talking with Chris, he’s going, “Why did you say that?” The question is, what did you hear? And so it’s that understanding of, what did you hear when I said that? Because I know what I meant. What did you hear?

MEL ROBBINS: Right. Because the second he said, “Why did you say that?” I felt attacked.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Of course.

MEL ROBBINS: And as I sit here in the bright daylight, right, and I’ve got distance from it, I don’t actually think I put my foot in my mouth. I know what my intention was.

JEFFERSON FISHER: You know.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes. And so the next time you’re in an argument with somebody and that knot starts to build and you can feel yourself yanking on it because you go into a mode of defending yourself. If somebody says to you, “Why did you say that?” Or they attack you on something, your response is, “What did you hear?”

MEL ROBBINS: Exactly. Wow.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Well, in your defense, to ask somebody why you said that, that “why” word puts everybody on the defense because it sounds like you’re attacking, you’re undermining their credibility.

Switching Roles

MEL ROBBINS: Okay, so let’s reverse the rules here. Let’s say my husband Chris says something really stupid that I’m like, “Why would he say something like that?” If I’m now the one in the car with him and he has said something at a party or around family that I just wanted to reach out and choke him, obviously I wouldn’t, but what would you say instead of “Why would you say that?”

JEFFERSON FISHER: I would use the word “what” instead of starting with “why”, which puts you on the defensive. Because when you say “why”, the first thing you want to say is “Because I said so. That’s why.”

MEL ROBBINS: Right.

JEFFERSON FISHER: That autonomy that you feel, but instead it’s the “what”. “What was going through your head when that happened” or “What made you say this?” It’s that curiosity of “I’m just curious of how you got there” instead of the pushing the “why”. “Why did you do this? Why did you do it that way?”

MEL ROBBINS: I love that because you’re right. One is judgment and the other is curiosity.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

MEL ROBBINS: One is choking and the other is leaning in.

JEFFERSON FISHER: It’s the whole student versus teacher mentality. Instead of feeling like you’re having to push, you’re having something to learn about it.

MEL ROBBINS: No wonder so many people follow you.

The Secret to Better Communication

MEL ROBBINS: What is the secret to getting better at talking to people?

JEFFERSON FISHER: It’s not really a secret as much as it is a process of wanting to express yourself in a way of saying what you mean more. Because often you want to say the thing, but you’re hesitant about it. You’re not sure exactly how you want to put it across so you feel like you need to dance around it.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Often you just need to jump right in.

MEL ROBBINS: That sounds scary for a lot of people.

JEFFERSON FISHER: It is scary, but you cold plunge. It’s worse when you go inch by inch.

Handling Difficult Conversations

MEL ROBBINS: Can you give us an example, especially as you’re listening to Jefferson, if you have a conversation or there’s something that you wish you could communicate more effectively, how do you do it?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Let’s put it in terms of a difficult conversation for them. Whoever is listening, I want you to imagine you are about to walk into somebody’s office and there’s going to be that hard conversation in the room. Let’s just say it’s a topic of something that is bad news. Put your mind wherever it is. You walk in and somebody goes, “So how are you? How are you lately? Pickleball games? All right. Well, that’s good.”

JEFFERSON FISHER: Your family’s good? Well, listen, hey, I have something that we’ve been talking about. Listen, I know it’s not that big of a deal. I want you to understand.

MEL ROBBINS: You’re making me panic as I’m listening to you, Jefferson.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Exactly. Because of that fear of the unknown versus, let’s say, the different scenario.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

JEFFERSON FISHER: You come in, say, “Thank you for meeting with me. Mel, I have bad news.” You deliver that bad news. Versus, “This isn’t going to be a fun conversation.” You say that. “This isn’t going to be fun for us to talk about. This isn’t my favorite conversation I have.” You prepare them for it.

Often, you’re afraid to disappoint people. And what that really is, is you don’t believe that they have enough emotional resiliency to handle it. So you need to baby them, to tiptoe into the water instead of dipping right in. People will admire you more. They will see you as somebody with more respect and more confidence every time when you say what you want to say fully.

MEL ROBBINS: Wow. Do you do that with your kids, too?

JEFFERSON FISHER: As much as I can. But, of course, I’m in a very loving way.

MEL ROBBINS: Gotcha.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

MEL ROBBINS: I mean, it makes sense because I think a lot of the advice is, and I will admit I think I’ve even given this advice in the past, is like, okay, well, make a sandwich. You’ve got to say something positive, and then you stick in the meat, which is the negative part. And people see it coming.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, I don’t like the sandwich.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay, you just go right for the meat.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Well, you can put in some bread, but I feel like it’s disingenuous to make them have to go, “What do you mean? What are you saying?” You kind of have to just sit there and wait, and it’s painful, rather than going right into it.

JEFFERSON FISHER: There’s still a place to be kind. There’s still a place to be very direct. And how you talk to your kids depends on your kid’s age. I mean, how I speak to my four- and six-year-old is different how my father spoke to me when I was 16, when I would come to him and complain, and he’d go, “You don’t have to like it. You just need to understand it.”

MEL ROBBINS: Right.

JEFFERSON FISHER: And it’s that whole different mentality of, I can deliver all the truth and still be kind.

Confusing Kindness with Lying

MEL ROBBINS: I want to pull that thread for a minute, because one of the reasons why we do not communicate directly with people is because we believe that if somebody can’t handle the truth, or if they’re going to have an emotional reaction, or if they’re going to feel like upset or disappointed in themselves, that somehow it’s kinder to avoid it or soft-pedal it or not be as direct.

And what you teach in a very effective way is that it’s actually one of the cruelest things you can do to somebody, to lead them on, to not tell them the truth, to lie to their face and treat them one way, but then go behind closed doors and actually complain about what they’re doing and not tell them.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Wholeheartedly.

MEL ROBBINS: And that somewhere along the line, we have confused kindness with actually lying to people, and that’s actually cruel. In one of the worst ways, especially for people that you love, whenever you skirt around the truth, whenever you come at a conversation in a very indirect way, you are saying to them, “I don’t believe you’re emotionally strong enough to handle this,” versus me saying, “Mel, I’m telling you this because I know you can handle it.”

Now you strengthen them, and often what you say, you’re giving them the armor to handle it. You’re giving them the backpack for the trip that they’re about to be on.

MEL ROBBINS: I love that. And you know what else I love is I love that thing you added there. So I want to make sure that as you’re listening, you are sticking these takeaways into that backpack that Jefferson just alluded to.

And so you said, first of all, that you just go right in, like just jump right into the deep end of the pool. Don’t be tap dancing around the topic and delay getting to it. “This is not going to be an easy conversation.” But then you just added this thing that I loved, which is, “But I’m telling you this because I know you can handle it, and I want you to hear the truth,” or “I want you to know how I feel about this,” or “You don’t have to like it, but you need to know this.”

And you just lifted me up a little bit when you said, “I’m telling you this because I think you can handle it.” And that makes me go, “Yeah, I think I can too. So lay it on me, even though it’s going to suck.”

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, exactly. You have to, in many ways, what you say to them is going to give them the value that you want them to hold. So “I’m telling you this because I know you believe in transparency. I’m coming to you with this, and I know it’s not fun to talk about. You’re somebody who can handle it.”

I know you have big shoulders. You tell them the quality that you want them to have, and they will rise up to it. They’ll stand up straight into it.

MEL ROBBINS: Oh, I love that. You tell someone the qualities that you want them to have, and people rise up into it.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Every time. When you say something to them, for example, let’s say, “Mel, I know that you’re somebody that takes value in people’s words or that you value patience.” They’ll go, “Oh, yeah.” And in their mind, they’re thinking, “Yeah, oh, yeah, I’m patient. Yeah.”

JEFFERSON FISHER: “Hey, Greg, I’m telling you this because I know you have an open mind.” All of a sudden, Greg’s like, “I do have an open mind. Yes, I do.” It is.

Setting the Tone for a Conversation

JEFFERSON FISHER: You can do that same thing when you walk into a room. So if you don’t feel comfortable saying it directly about the person, you can say what this room is.

MEL ROBBINS: What do you mean?

JEFFERSON FISHER: You walk in and say, “I want to make sure that this room is one that I can be entirely truthful in.”

MEL ROBBINS: So where would you use that? Like at work?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, let’s say you’re in somebody’s office. It doesn’t have to be the room of truth. I’m just saying wherever you are.

MEL ROBBINS: You say it to yourself, or you say that out loud?

JEFFERSON FISHER: I want to make sure that this is a place of honesty. I want to make sure that I’m speaking in a place that’s free to say what I need to say. Are we good with that? And they go, “Yeah.”

MEL ROBBINS: I love this because in lawyer speak, you’re basically leading a witness.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Oh, yeah.

MEL ROBBINS: But it works like a charm. And I’ve never really thought about that as a strategy to tell people how I want you to react to something.

Framing a Conversation

JEFFERSON FISHER: And you add that on to what I call a frame in the conversation. So you tell somebody, you go a step further, and that is you tell them how you want the conversation to end.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay, so tell me this.

JEFFERSON FISHER: So let’s say you made a comment at dinner.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes, last night. Okay, yes.

JEFFERSON FISHER: And it’s this concept of you tell them what you want to talk about. You tell them how you want to feel after you end the conversation, and you get their agreement to it.

You step into it and say, “I’d like to talk to you about a comment you made last night at dinner, and I want to walk away from that conversation knowing that this isn’t a topic you’re going to bring up again in front of other people. Does that sound good?”

MEL ROBBINS: That sounds like I’m in trouble.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, it could be.

MEL ROBBINS: So now I’m literally going, “I’m not going to bring it up ever again.” But you get what I mean.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Or let’s say a comment that you made at a meeting last week, and “I want to make sure that you and I are on the same wavelength the next meeting that we have. Does that work?” And they go, “That works.” And now you have a frame, and now you know exactly what the conversation is about and what it’s not about.

Because if you talk about everything, then you really talk about nothing. You’ve had those meetings where, “All right, everybody, we’ve got a lot to do today. We have a lot to talk about.” And you leave those meetings feeling like you really didn’t.

MEL ROBBINS: Like every meeting.

JEFFERSON FISHER: You didn’t talk about anything.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes, that’s every meeting that I lead.

Talking to People You Don’t Like

MEL ROBBINS: So now I’m going to use your technique. Question for you. How do you talk to somebody that you don’t like? Nobody wants to feel fake, but what do you do?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Well, if you’re in a position where you have to talk to somebody you don’t like, that does not give you any reason to be less likable. It’s that mentality of “Don’t argue with a fool because onlookers won’t know the difference.” I forgot who said that quote, but it’s that idea of if you’re talking to somebody you don’t like, well, you’re going to talk to them as if you do.

MEL ROBBINS: How do you do that?

JEFFERSON FISHER: You just be who you are. Understand that you’re not trying to convince the other person to like you or convince yourself to like the other person. You’re convincing the people around you because they’re watching you. They’re watching how you talk to somebody. They’re watching how you treat other people.

And if you need to, just go neutral. Just stick with basic facts instead of trying to get cute and make these offhand comments and roll your eyes and cross your arms. Instead, just be very neutral in the conversation. They ask you what time it is. Instead of going, “Well, you know, if you were here, so you don’t got to watch?”

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Instead of doing that, you just tell them the time. Be very quick with it. Get in, get out. You don’t need to have more conversation than you need to, but you never want to give somebody a reason, especially somebody who’s not in a conversation, not to like you.

Handling Belittling Comments

MEL ROBBINS: How do you handle somebody that kind of belittles you? Like picking on your weight or they’re constantly like, “Are you still single?” You know how people, especially people that you’re close with, have a way of belittling you?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

MEL ROBBINS: What do you do in those situations?

JEFFERSON FISHER: When somebody is belittling you or giving you an insult and a hurtful comment, you make them say it again, because what they’re hoping to do in that belittling comment is get that reaction out of you. Instead, you find a way to take all the fun out of it.

So when you ask them to repeat what they said, you’re not giving them that hit of dopamine that they’re expecting from your reaction. They’re not getting that response time from you. Instead, you’re delaying that gratification for them. Then it’s just not worth it. Then it’s just not fun.

So when you ask them to repeat it, to say, “I need you to say that again.”

MEL ROBBINS: We need to role play this.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Sure.

MEL ROBBINS: I’m trying to think of a scenario.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Like you just said right there, “You’re still single.”

MEL ROBBINS: I need you to repeat that.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Exactly. I’m not going to want to say that again, because now that spotlight is on me.

Also, what you lead up with that is you ask questions of intent. For example, “Did you say that to hurt me?” And now it’s this mirror that they feel like, “Why did I say that?” Oh, okay. And then they start to backtrack. Then you don’t have to say anything.

So if somebody says to you, “Oh, so you’re still single?” “I need you to say that again.” Most likely they’re not going to say that again. But if they do, then you can even repeat what they said. “I’m still single. That’s what you asked me?” And all of a sudden they realize, this isn’t fun. They’re not going to ask that kind of thing again.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Or you just ask that question of, “Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me?” “Oh, no, no, no, no. I didn’t say that. What I meant was,” and all of a sudden they’re backing away, because they know you’re going to stand your ground.

MEL ROBBINS: Wow. This is very eye-opening, because I can see both situations where I need to use it, and I can see situations where I probably say things, and I’m thinking particularly to my adult kids, that probably feels belittling.

I can think about our daughter out in Los Angeles, and every time I see her, she’s wearing a piece of clothing that I don’t recognize. So I think to myself, and oftentimes I will say, “Is that new?” And I’m thinking in my mind, “Where do you get the money for this?” You know, like that kind of thing. And then she’s literally like, “Yeah, I thrifted it.” And there’s this little tiff thing, but if she were to say to me, “Are you trying to embarrass me?”

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, exactly. “Are you trying to insinuate something? Are you trying to say something that you’re not wanting to tell me?”

MEL ROBBINS: Because you’re right. The question is what I’m saying on the surface, but what I’m actually accusing her of is not being responsible with her money.

MEL ROBBINS: It’s that mirror.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes.

MEL ROBBINS: Yeah.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes. And so it takes away the power of their insult.

MEL ROBBINS: Wow.

JEFFERSON FISHER: When you can take all the fun out of it. You take all the oxygen out of their room, and they realize that they’re not going to be able to control you with that reaction that they were hoping to get from you.

Responding to Disrespect

MEL ROBBINS: How do you respond to disrespect?

JEFFERSON FISHER: A lot of silence. So often if you just wait 10 seconds, you’re going to add distance between what they said and how you’re going to respond. Because what they’re wanting when somebody’s disrespectful is, the same way with belittling, they’re saying this to get something out of you. Because in that moment they’re feeling something, whether it’s a fear, an insecurity, whatever it is, you’re not going to deliver on that same plane that they are. You’re not going to be on that same level.

So if somebody says something disrespectful, you give enough silence to make sure that it’s a little awkward. And then you’re going to say something to the effect of, “That’s below my standard for a response.” And then all of a sudden they feel like the dynamic has been flipped. Something as simple as that. All of a sudden you’re now making it clear that what you just said was beneath me. And I don’t respond to things that are beneath me in that way. And so now you’re taking control of it. Now you’re leaning into it.

JEFFERSON FISHER: What they thought was meant as a disrespect, they’re now understanding that they’re in the wrong place.

Dealing with Disrespectful Family Members

MEL ROBBINS: I was with somebody yesterday who had just visited their mother. And I said to her, you know, like, “How did it go?” And she said, “Well, it was fine, but it’s my mother.”

And the thing that drives me crazy is she is extremely disrespectful to anybody that is waiting on us at a restaurant, like so much so that the owner came over and said something to her. Is there a way to respond when someone else is throwing a fit or is being disrespectful? Is there something that you could say to somebody in that situation?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Depends how your relationship is with that person. I would advise that whoever they’re disrespecting, you don’t join in it and you make it clear that that is not your behavior. So you’re going to be a person that is kind to this person.

I’ve had it before. My grandfather came with me to Walmart. It was a terrible time. And he was in a bad mood and he was crotchety to everybody we talked to. But I was the one that was, “Thank you so much for helping us. I appreciate it. Thank you so much.” Being overly, “Hey, I understand. Thank you.” And then you have that conversation. I had to have that conversation with my grandfather.

MEL ROBBINS: How did you do that?

JEFFERSON FISHER: I had to put a boundary, a very firm boundary of, “If this is the way you’re going to talk to people, I can’t come with you. If you don’t change the tone in which you’re talking to people, Papa, I can’t. I can’t come.”

And so it very was, “What am I saying? I’m not being respectful to people.” “Yes, I am.” “I would not be telling you this if you had been respectful to people.” The people you love, often you have to be their biggest mirror of protecting them also for how other people see them. And so I love my grandfather. I want other people to love him. And that means I also have to make sure that I need to prepare him in a loving way of being very direct. “This is how you’re talking to people.”

MEL ROBBINS: Has he changed?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes. He also just don’t go to Walmart.

Separating the Person from the Problem

JEFFERSON FISHER: It’s just saying “I feel” instead of “I think”, it is “I feel”. If that is a feeling that you actually have. In other words, separating the person from the problem. For example, let’s say you need to criticize a proposal that somebody had or a presentation.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Instead of using the word “you” with it, “your presentation”, that’s going to get them defensive. Instead, make it a third person, “the proposal”, “the presentation”. “The presentation could benefit from a few changes” instead of “Your proposal wasn’t that great.” So you find ways of objectifying. You’re separating the person from the problem itself. So that’s a way of expressing how you feel about a certain thing.

MEL ROBBINS: Can I stop you right there?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Of course.

MEL ROBBINS: Because I immediately see an application as a parent or as a roommate where as a parent personally, I will throw myself under the bus here. I have never done that. “Your room is a mess. Your stuff is everywhere.” It’s accusation, accusation, accusation.

So how would you use this technique to be more effective at communicating when you’re talking to kids or you’re talking to somebody that you live with and you want to use the strategy of removing the kind of “you’re wrong” from the thing that you want them to do?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Can I give the listeners a thought?

MEL ROBBINS: Absolutely. You can do whatever you want.

JEFFERSON FISHER: So let’s say, well, you and I are at a table. And let’s say you and I are disagreeing about something.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

JEFFERSON FISHER: And in the middle of the room, let’s just put this as the problem. This is the problem. This is how I see the problem. And you’re going to argue this is how you see the problem.

MEL ROBBINS: Right.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Great. Now, the issue between us is not each other. It’s the problem. But in the real conversation, it’s hard to get out of that. Instead, it’s me pulling my chair and saying, “Mel, come over here. Come sit next to me. Let’s talk about this problem. What are we going to do about this?”

So instead of “Your room’s not clean”, “I see the room still isn’t clean. What should we do about it?” It’s that idea of trying to get them to let’s look at the problem together. That’s what I mean by separating the person from the problem. Instead of getting on to you and saying, “Mel, you’re lazy. You don’t understand. You’re so stupid. You’re such an idiot.” Instead of that, the problem is the problem on the table. Come sit next to me and let’s talk about the problem. And now, instead of opponents, we’re teammates.

MEL ROBBINS: Your kids are screwed. I had this whole visual, as you were saying this, of me frustrated, yelling, or stressed, or exacerbated about the pile of laundry, or the state of the room, or whatever it is, and then making a fuss about the problem, which only puts somebody on the defensive.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Every time.

MEL ROBBINS: Versus imagine if you’re standing in front of the kitchen sink with your family, or you’re standing in front of the living room with your roommate, right? And you’re like, “This room is pretty messy. What should we do about it?”

JEFFERSON FISHER: Exactly.

MEL ROBBINS: Completely different approach.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Without a doubt.

Expressing Needs in a Collaborative Way

JEFFERSON FISHER: And it’s this idea of having kind of a need check of saying, “Let’s take a timeout. I want to make sure that I have time with you all to do activities. We also have a need to do the dishes. I need help with that.” Or “I have a need for your room to be clean. I have a need for this house to be clean. What’s your need? How can we help with that?”

So when you use the word “help”, people love to be helpful. This ability to, instead of just attacking them, that “You don’t understand”, “You don’t get it”, “You’re lazy”, or “You don’t care”. Those are all words I just cut for no reason. When your problem is not them, the problem is the issue.

MEL ROBBINS: Wow. You could use this with anything.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Anything.

MEL ROBBINS: You could use this if somebody’s playing too much video games. You could use this if somebody’s not taking care of themselves. The problem isn’t the person. It’s the issue that is bothering you and this need that you have to see somebody either doing better or to see the house picked up or to see people helping out.

MEL ROBBINS: That’s freaking genius.

Speaking Succinctly and Confidently

MEL ROBBINS: I’m a little concerned because given that I’m a talker, it’s easy for me to take this advice and just go blah, blah. I can apply it immediately because I am not uncomfortable talking to other people, and I haven’t had social anxiety since law school. But there are a ton of people that listen who do, and I can think of a particular friend of mine who is so amazing and the second she’s around other people, she just kind of clams up.

Do you have any specific strategies or advice for somebody who would like to be better about just speaking and feeling more confident about it or feeling like I can display authority a certain way if there are certain phrases or strategies? How do you coach people in becoming more comfortable in that regard?

JEFFERSON FISHER: I coach people the same way I coach my legal clients, and I walk them through a series of steps because you know as well as I do, when we send somebody out to be cross-examined, we’re giving them up to the wolves in many ways. You have somebody who wants to hurt their credibility. There’s somebody who wants to prove them wrong, call them a liar.

So how do you equip them with the armor to take that on? Some of the basics of what I talk about is I want them to feel that they can say things very succinctly, meaning often people who are nervous to talk, have that social anxiety, they say too much, then they felt like they didn’t say anything at all afterwards. And that just means they’re watering down what they’re saying.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay. Let’s put this in a scenario.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Okay. “Sorry to bother you, Mel. But I have this… Well, I mean it’s not really this thing, but it’s… Okay, so essentially what I really want to say is this isn’t really something I’m too, too comfortable with, you know?” But I mean that is what you see 99% of.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes.

JEFFERSON FISHER: The 1% says, takes a breath, lets their breath be the first word that they say, and says, “This is not something I’m comfortable with.” Period.

You see how different it is? The same thing, I mean it’s the same objective. One is watered down, the other is served to you straight. And so you find ways to eliminate the water from your drink, so to speak. You’ve got to get rid of all the ice cubes, the over-apologizing, the putting your words down before you even get them out. That’s where you experience real growth and real change in your sentences.

MEL ROBBINS: I want to make sure that as you were listening to Jefferson, you actually heard that, because the single most important thing that you said was taking a breath is the first word.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Exactly.

MEL ROBBINS: And so if you’re somebody that just opens your mouth and all kinds of stuff starts coming out, and then you start to, of course, feel more anxious because you’ve lost control of what you’re saying, and then that just makes you keep going, and then you get flustered, and then your face turns red, and then now you’re like, “I’m never talking again, and I didn’t even say what I meant to say.” Your breath is the first word.

And then you’re coaching us to really think about what do you actually want to say. And so for somebody that has a hard time in a social setting, and you are walking into a party, you don’t know a lot of people. You’re walking into a networking meeting, you don’t know a lot of people. And you want to prepare yourself to be able to say something.

Is there an opening line or a way that you recommend that people start to just practice the art of just talking to other people? Because a lot of people find it very challenging to just strike up a conversation with someone.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, that is difficult. I would say that just focus on one person. Even though it’s a room of plenty, you can be in a room and feel like you talk to everybody, but you just scratched the surface. Trade that for a real conversation with just one person.

So there’s plenty of times where you’ve left a meeting, or you left an event, and you go, “Man, I really like this person who I got to spend a quality six minutes with,” versus just a bunch of pleasantries of, “Oh, hey, how you doing? How’s your kids? We should get together.” And you never get together.

So I would tell them, one, quantity does not equal quality when it comes to networking or any big rooms like that. That’s not how it should work. Just focus on one person.

Two, if you want to break the ice about something, you can always start with something of just how they’re doing in their life, what they’re excited about, what they’re looking forward to. When you ask just, “How are you?”, people talk about the past. They rarely talk about the future. The future is a lot more exciting because then you can go about something. People typically tend to speak ill of what’s been going on. They’re bad on it. They’re more negative on it. They’re typically more positive about the future.

MEL ROBBINS: Oh, that’s a great tip. So you take a breath, and then you ask somebody, “So what are you excited about” or “Why are you here?” What would you say if you were walking into a networking meeting?

JEFFERSON FISHER: I would say, “What are you most excited about today?” Something as simple as that.

MEL ROBBINS: Wow, I’m most excited about talking to you, Jefferson.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, same here.

Talking About the Future vs. the Past

MEL ROBBINS: Jefferson, one of my favorite videos of yours is where you give advice about answering the question, “How are you?”

JEFFERSON FISHER: I mean, you hear it every day. It’s the first thing we tend to ask anybody. You can handle that question a lot better if instead of answering that question talking about the past, in other words, typically people like to say, “I’m good”, “I’m fine”, “It’s been okay today”, or “Another day in paradise”, you’re hearing that “I live in the dream”.

It’s to talk about what you’re excited about. Instead of being backward-looking, look forward. You tell them what you’re looking forward to. “I’m looking forward to seeing my kids today. I’m excited about the game on Friday.” If you talk about the future, it’s always a lot more exciting.

And also, don’t be afraid to be truthful. So if somebody’s asking you how you are, instead of just saying, “Oh, I’m actually doing really bad”, it’s okay to say, “I’m just feeling a little overcast today.” You put it in terms of the weather. It’s a lot easier for people. You don’t have to worry about the little details. You don’t have to worry about the little complexities of, “Do I need to explain to them everything that’s happening that day?” Just put it in terms of the weather. “It’s kind of an overcast day for me.” “It’s a sunny day.” “Bad thunderstorms for me today.” Find different ways to talk about the weather, and instantly they know how you’re doing.

MEL ROBBINS: That’s really cool. I’m realizing that I’m a massive oversharer. So when somebody asks me, “How are you?”, I go into a diatribe of information that they don’t need.

Oversharing vs. Being a Well

JEFFERSON FISHER: Well, it’s not that they don’t need it. Oversharing can be a hindrance in the long term. It often stems from what I’ve seen with clients is this need to feel believed. In other words, you feel like they’re not buying all what you’re saying, so you need to say more so that they know how knowledgeable you are. You know how much you know.

The weird thing about that is typically the more you say something, the less it appears you know about it. So the more words it takes to tell the truth, the more it sounds like a lie. So you have to be careful about oversharing. What I like to tell my clients is instead of being a waterfall, be a well. Be the place that they can draw information from instead of them feeling like you have to overwhelm them and put them on the life raft.

MEL ROBBINS: Jefferson, you just changed my life.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Oh, good.

MEL ROBBINS: Because I am an avalanche and a waterfall, and I love this idea that you could be a well and keep it closer to the chest and people can dip in and get the information that you want to give them. A bucketful instead of just barfing all the information out.

JEFFERSON FISHER: That’s another way to put it.

Standing Up for Yourself

MEL ROBBINS: Can you give us advice on how you stand up for yourself?

JEFFERSON FISHER: So one is, like we talked about, let your breath be the first word that you say, because what that does is tell people that you heard them and that you’re acknowledging. There’s a difference between if you just ask me a question, you say, “Hey, how are you doing, Jefferson?” I go, “Good, good, real good, real good.” I didn’t really listen.

Versus if you ask me that question again, “How are you doing, Jefferson?” And I said, “I’m good. I’m real good.” Now it feels like you’ve stepped into it.

Often when it comes to standing your ground, it is just slowing down your words. Not feeling like you have to rush anything. Nobody can make you say anything that you don’t want to say. If you just find ways to give it a beat and figure it out, you’re going to be a whole lot better off. Too often people wait until they’re talking to figure out what they want to say.

MEL ROBBINS: Oh, my God, that’s me.

JEFFERSON FISHER: They take off. It’s like going to the airport and just flying and getting on a plane. You go, “Where are you landing?” “I have no idea. I just got on the plane. I don’t know.”

You get in the car and they’re like, “Where are you going?” “Who knows? I’m just going.” I say all that to say, they finally kind of, they’re just going in circles on their plane and they’re waiting. You got to help people land the runway often.

MEL ROBBINS: I feel like that is me at work and in life. I’m one of these people that needs to talk it out and where I start is never where I land. I’m realizing as I’m listening to you that there’s a lot of pre-work that I can do before I walk into a meeting or before I just start blabbing with my family. It would be way more effective and helpful for people if I actually knew where I was going before I opened my mouth.

Conversational Goals and Values

JEFFERSON FISHER: It always helps to have a goal in the conversation. It helps to have conversational values. It helps to have conversational goals.

MEL ROBBINS: Talk to me about that. What does that mean to have a conversational goal and a conversational value? If you go back to the original thing that you teach us, which is you get to choose what kind of person you are based on the things that you say and how you say them.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Conversational goals is simply where you want to end the conversation. You want to make sure you understand what this person meant by this comment. That’s your goal. Often we start talking and then we lose track of where we’re going because we’re listening to respond. We’re not listening to understand.

Often when you go to trial and you’re listening to a witness in their direct examination, where bad attorneys go wrong is they just start planning out their next question regardless of what the witness says versus waiting to hear that whole answer and adapting to it. Conversational goals is just simply where you’re headed. It’s the destination of where you’re going.

Conversational values are how you feel authentic to yourself to get there. I have conversational values that I use in every conversation that I have to make sure that no matter what happens in the conversation, I can’t control anything else but myself. It’s my values that drive my response.

For example, one of my key conversational values is “If I can’t be a bridge, be a lighthouse.” In other words, if we can’t meet in the middle, if we can’t connect in some way, I’m still going to be a lighthouse for them. I’m still going to be a source of light that if they need to come back, they know where I’m at.

I have another one that I use and that is “If there’s room for kindness, I will use it.” I get that from my mama. I come to her with a complaint and she’d say, “Well, were you kind?” I’d say, “Well, mom, you don’t understand. This person, this person, this person.” She’d go, “Well, I still think you should be kind.” It’s like, you know what? If there’s always room for kindness, if there’s any room at all, that’s a chance to use it.

The last one I use is “Tell them who I am without telling them my name.” That’s that idea of letting my words inform them of who I am without anything of my identification or my status or where I am. It’s the value of how I make people feel in my words.

How do you apply those values? I’m having a conversation with an opposing attorney. He says something that some of them do. They tell you how great their case is. Every case they have is full of sunshine, no bruises.

You have that chance to say, well, could I just give them a piece of my mind and tell them how bad their case is and how I’m going to railroad over them, or is there any room for kindness in this conversation? If there is any room at all, then I’m going to use it. That gives me the chance to say, “You know what, Howard? I got to tell you, you’re great at your job and you really care about your clients. I can tell. I can really tell you care about your clients.” And he goes, “Well, yeah, yeah, you know I do. I really do, and I feel great about that.” And all of a sudden, he goes, “You know what, in that Rule 11 you wanted? I think we can agree to that. That’s no problem.”

If I can inject my values, I don’t have to worry about what to say. I don’t have to worry about some zinger to dissent. If there’s room for kindness, I’ll use it. So you find ways to use values to control the conversation.

MEL ROBBINS: Well, you never regret not being kind.

JEFFERSON FISHER: That’s a great one, yeah.

MEL ROBBINS: And I always regret when I’m not.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

Being Intentional in Communication

MEL ROBBINS: And so one of the huge takeaways that I have is that a lot of us don’t stop and think about what the intention is of a conversation and how we want to be perceived and what we want to demonstrate about ourselves by being in it. And it’s everywhere from how you walk into a meeting, if you think about what you want to get out of it or how you want to be perceived, then that actually dictates how you’re going to show up. It’s like you can use this in absolutely any area of your life.

And I think most of us are just sort of going through the day and surviving, and there’s a completely different way to think about the way that you communicate.

JEFFERSON FISHER: I 100% agree in that if you look at where you are in life, from your romantic relationships to where you are at work, there is a large percentage of that that is solely based upon what you said to that person. That just meant there are thoughts that came from your brain to your mouth that you spoke out loud that have influenced where you are.

You said something to that person, and they liked it, and now they want to date you. And they said something you liked, and there it is. You met over coffee at the airport or where you are at work at that promotion that you want. You have ways of just simply using the power of your words to influence everything, and it can change.

Even if you said things in the past that you regret or things you wish you would have said better, you can change everything about your life by what you say next.

Becoming the Person You Want to Be Through Your Words

MEL ROBBINS: Are there a couple steps that somebody could take to just walk themselves through the kind of person that they want to be through their words? Because I feel like there’s this step, Jefferson, that we don’t really take with intention of getting clear that I want to be this kind of person. And it’s one thing to kind of use kind words. It’s a whole other thing to have a reckoning with yourself where you say, this is an area of my life that I want to take control of, and I can take control of it.

Are there particular questions that somebody could ask themselves that help them get to what their values might be in terms of how they want to change the way they communicate, what they want the world to think about them? Like I often think when I go into a meeting, what do I want people to say when I leave? And it’s a trick that I learned when I was a public defender working for legal aid, which is what do I want the jury to say the second that they get out of this courtroom and they get into that meeting with one another? What do I want them to say? And I use that now before I go into a meeting. What do I want them to think about me? And then I align the way that I show up based on the impact that I want to create in that room.

JEFFERSON FISHER: I love that. I do. I’m very similar. What energy am I bringing to the room? If everybody’s at a table and you walk in and you’re coming in, what do you want the feeling to be? “Oh, this person’s here.” What’s that energy that you’re bringing? Because every one of us has a different energy that affects the room that they’re in. Is it, “Oh, no, somebody’s here?” Or, “Oh, great, somebody’s here?” Or is it, “Oh, man, somebody’s here?” Everyone’s a little bit different.

The biggest tool that somebody can use is ask the question to themselves and also to the person that loves them the most more than anybody. “Who do my words say that I am?” Who do my words say that I am? And that is a great question to ask yourself or you ask somebody else, who do my words say that I am? Because often what you say doesn’t match exactly with who you want to be. I would encourage somebody to ask a friend, a spouse, the way that I speak, what kind of energy does that give? Does that give anxiety? Do I rush my words? Do I speak too fast? Do I speak too slow?

How do you want to tweak the room to understand how you want to communicate with that next person? So I would encourage, in terms of action steps, it’s the question that you need to answer of yourself of who do you want to be with your words? And then what words are you going to use? I think what you have to say is awesome of think long-term of just kind of call your shot. I want to leave that room feeling like I am somebody who’s confident.

MEL ROBBINS: Right. I think it’s such an important point because you do have so much power over your reputation. You do have power over the impact that you make with other people. And taking a beat before you walk in the room or you walk in the meeting or you walk into the party or you walk up to the sidelines at your kid’s soccer game to really remind yourself what kind of person do I want to be? And now let me align what I say and the energy that I bring to represent that.

JEFFERSON FISHER: That’s the crazy part about it. It’s also the most simple part about it. And that is it is simply within your control. When you walk away from an interaction from somebody and you go “I really like that person.” What was it? What was it that you liked? They said something nice about me. They smiled. They didn’t criticize other people. It all has to do with your communication. Their experience of you is going to be almost entirely the words that you use right in front of them.

MEL ROBBINS: And how they made that person feel.

JEFFERSON FISHER: How you made that person feel right then and there.

Effective Communication at Work

MEL ROBBINS: Love this. What are your best tips to be more effective at communicating at work?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Tip number one would be have something to learn, not something to prove. So anytime you’re in an argument, and it’s not just work, it’s really anything. When you’re in a conversation with somebody, have something to learn from them rather than something to prove. Even if you want to prove yourself. “I want to prove who I am.” That doesn’t come from you pushing your own agenda. It comes from you being curious about other people.

JEFFERSON FISHER: And so if you want to be known as somebody who’s respectful in the workplace or somebody who’s kind, you use kind words. If you want to be known as somebody who’s respectful, you use respectful words. So that means if you talk about somebody and gossip and do something negative, that’s what people are going to associate you with. Because it goes even wider than that.

If other people associate with you, that bad person, well then people are going to think differently about them. So it’s these circles of communication of what you said. “Oh, you’re friends with so-and-so, you’re friends with so-and-so” that are going to influence that.

If you want to be more respected at work, use words that show more authority. You can use words like “direction”. “I’d like to set the direction of this conversation.” “I don’t like the direction of where this is going.” All of a sudden, it sounds like you’re captain of the ship. But you’re just using the word “direction”. So you find ways that can influence who you want to be for good.

Communicating Effectively with Family

MEL ROBBINS: What’s one change somebody can make starting today to communicate more effectively with their family?

JEFFERSON FISHER: When you need to have this hard conversation, at all times, show them that you love them, that you care. And you do that with the words, meaning you tell them that. “I’m telling you this because I love you.”

Often, I know people and you know people that they had really hard childhoods, and they just never heard that from a parent, that “I’m proud of you”, that “I love you”. So you find ways to inject that into the conversation.

“I’m talking to you right now because I want us to learn from this conversation.” Or “I’m learning too.” When you’re having that, you need to de-escalate an argument with a spouse or a kid. “Hey, I’m learning too. This is my first time to be a parent. This is your first time to be a kid. I’m learning too.” Don’t be afraid to apologize. Don’t be afraid to own that. I think from a position of strength, you can really, really own that apology when you need to.

MEL ROBBINS: I’m stealing that. I often say “I’m doing the best I can”, but I like “I’m learning too.” That’s a beautiful thing.

JEFFERSON FISHER: It’s good for spouses too. You can be dating forever, but as soon as you get married and live together, it’s a whole new world.

MEL ROBBINS: It is. I just recently heard somebody say that second marriages are amazing, particularly if it’s with the same person. This idea that any moment you can change a relationship because you can change yourself and how you communicate.

JEFFERSON FISHER: That’s the only thing you can’t control. I can’t control the other person. You can only control how you respond to it.

MEL ROBBINS: I’m going to steal everything that you just taught me. I’m so excited that you get to listen and be here and learn from Jefferson too. We’re going to be leaving here going “Direction, kindness.”

Parting Words

MEL ROBBINS: I’ve got to tell you this. What are your parting words?

JEFFERSON FISHER: To anybody who’s listening, my parting words to you are this. You have a power that you haven’t tapped into yet, and that is just the power of your words.

If you want to be seen as somebody who’s strong, you use stronger words. If you want to be somebody who is seen to be more decisive, somebody who stands up for themselves, it is not a course you have to take. It is not a book you have to read. It is simply how you need to change the next word that comes out of your mouth.

It is something that can be learned at any point. It doesn’t matter how young you are to how old you are. What you say next has the power to change anything. If you use it for good and you use it for light, you’re always going to go right. I didn’t mean for that to rhyme.

MEL ROBBINS: I love you. I know that sounds creepy, but you are a huge light.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Thank you.

MEL ROBBINS: Thank you. My parting words to you, I hope you take absolutely everything that Jefferson just shared with us and you use it. You use it to create better relationships, to speak with authority, to have your words reflect the kind of person that you really want to be.

And in case no one else tells you this, I wanted to be sure to tell you I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And as Jefferson just taught you, it’s all in the power of your words. You get to say, how cool is that? I’ll see you in the next episode.

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