Joe Rogan Podcast: #2476 with Shanna H. Swan (Transcript)

And I’ll tell you what.

The Urine Testing Kit

JOE ROGAN: Okay. Learn what’s inside. It looks like you’re peeing — okay.

SHANNA H. SWAN: That’s right. Keep going.

JOE ROGAN: And there’s more stuff in there.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yep.

JOE ROGAN: Okay. Something to send it back.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Right.

JOE ROGAN: And then this looks like biohazard bags —

SHANNA H. SWAN: — to put your pee in.

JOE ROGAN: Pee doesn’t kill anybody. And this is — it’s got a QR code on it. “Say hello to a healthier you.”

SHANNA H. SWAN: So those are ways to find out, ways to lower your exposure.

JOE ROGAN: Okay.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: I know a lot of people get these harmful chemicals from drinking coffee — hot liquids out of paper cups.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah, from the paper cups that are lined with, for example, bisphenols. But the coffee itself is made in a — most coffee makers contain a lot of plastic also. So it comes in both the cups and in the device that’s making coffee.

JOE ROGAN: Metal.

SHANNA H. SWAN: That’s good.

JOE ROGAN: I do that at home, too. I got rid of my plastic coffee machine.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Me too.

JOE ROGAN: I was thinking about it. It was like, why am I pouring hot water into this plastic thing? That can’t be good.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: It doesn’t taste as good.

SHANNA H. SWAN: You’re learning. You’re learning.

JOE ROGAN: French press tastes better anyway.

The Plastic Detox Intervention Study

SHANNA H. SWAN: So here’s my suggestion. If you’re willing to do this.

JOE ROGAN: I am willing to do this.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Good. Cool. So — not hard — pee in the cup, send it in. Then my colleague Jenna Wah and her team will analyze it for — not everything in the world, but the bisphenols, the phthalates, and the parabens. That’s what they’re — they’re going to be adding pesticides soon, and that would be great to have that as well.

Then if you want to go to phase two, I have some things here that you could swap in your kitchen and you could go to that QR code and find out other things that you could reduce. And then if you wanted to, we could send you another kit and you could see if your levels changed.

JOE ROGAN: Okay.

SHANNA H. SWAN: You want to do that?

JOE ROGAN: I would love to do that.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yay.

JOE ROGAN: What is phase two?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Phase two would mail you back another kit, you take your urine again, and that’s it.

JOE ROGAN: So that’s to see if it’s changed because of lifestyle changes.

SHANNA H. SWAN: That’s right.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

SHANNA H. SWAN: That’s right. So you would be doing what the couples in part of what the couples in the intervention did. The couples in the intervention also were infertile. And so we’re not going to touch your fertility question. But they also — the men collected sperm, and we can do that if you want, but I don’t think you would. You may not want to talk about that on your — but that’s what we did in the intervention.

So in the intervention, we found — I’ll just — this is what the intervention was. There’s a company called Fellow, which is grown out of UCSF and they’re very big now. I think they have like 200,000 men in their files who have had their semen tested. Okay. And at the time they have their semen tested, they’re asked, “Could we recontact you for research?” That’s one important question. And they’re asked, “Why did you want your sperm tested?” And if they say, “Because we’re infertile or subfertile or we’re worrying about our fertility,” we ask — or they ask — “How long has it been that you’ve been having this problem with fertility?” And if it’s more than 12 months, then they’re technically infertile. Right. So if they said they would agree to be recontacted and they were infertile, they were potentially eligible for this intervention. You with me?

JOE ROGAN: Got it.

SHANNA H. SWAN: So actually, finding the couples that are in the film was a long process. They had to, of course, agree to be filmed. They had to have what we call — terrible word — idiopathic infertility. No known causes. And they couldn’t be obese, they couldn’t be smokers, they couldn’t have a diagnosis, a medical diagnosis that explains — we don’t want it to be unexplained. Okay. So we winnowed down to what was six couples. One of them dropped out for personal reasons. So I won’t go into that, but that’s how we got those couples.

They had to be couples, by the way, and they had to be staying together for the next three months and not doing IVF. Okay. So that was the setup. And then the company called Million Marker — that you’re going to send your pee to — they have an education program. And that’s a lot of what they do, the testing and the education. And so all of those couples — they talked to them and said, “Tell me about what you put on your face this morning. Tell me what you washed your clothes with, tell me what you clean your counters with.” And on and on and on like that. Right. So they took an inventory of what the couples were doing and then they started this educational program, which they’re very good at and have been doing for a while.

Once a week they talk to them. “So how’s it going? Have you changed this? What are you using now?” And so on. So it was not just a one time thing. And if you were doing this, it would be short — just like, use these things maybe. But along with that, we sent them the Fellow kits to collect their semen. Okay, so we have beginning, middle and end — that was three months. So beginning, six weeks, 12 weeks. And why three months? It takes 70 days to make a sperm. So we wanted to have turnover within the course of the intervention.

So we sent them a kit and they collected their semen at home, which is nice for guys because you don’t have to go into a lab and do it there. It’s much better at home, right?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

SHANNA H. SWAN: And they send it in and they figured out how to get all the parameters right, even though it’s mailed. Yeah, so the couples did that. So we had over time levels in their body of the chemicals, semen quality, what they were doing, what they changed in their life — because we had this record of everything that changed. And then finally we saw who got pregnant. And I hope your listeners will watch the Plastic Detox. It’s a movie that a lot of people love and found really moving. And you should watch it.

Plastic in Commercial Coffee Machines

JOE ROGAN: Can I ask you about the coffee question? When you go to a place like — let’s just say Starbucks, not to single them out — but are they using plastic with their coffee machines? Are their coffee machines made with plastic?

SHANNA H. SWAN: I don’t know about any particular place except my kitchen.

JOE ROGAN: I was just asking the question.

SHANNA H. SWAN: I suspect that they are using plastic.

JOE ROGAN: Right. So if people stop at a place like that on a regular basis on the way to work in the morning to get coffee, and they bring their own stainless steel thermos or mug — that would eliminate some of it. But perhaps one source — yeah, yeah — but perhaps they’re getting it actually from the coffee machine itself. Because I see when they slide those — when you see these big industrial machines and they slide those filters in — those filters are plastic.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah, well, they probably have bisphenol in them.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, right. It’s a plastic tray, it seems like. I don’t know. But then there’s a paper filter in the plastic tray. So you’re getting it no matter what.

The Impact of Plastics and Chemicals on Fertility

SHANNA H. SWAN: And if they use those pods, you know, at home, Bruno, one of our guys in the film, wonderful guy, he was kind of addicted to his coffee machine, his pods. And we said, “Bruno, we want you to stop using those pods.” “No, I don’t want to stop using them.” But he did. He did, and they’ve had two babies. Now, I’m not saying that’s the reason, but, you know, it’s a contribution problem.

JOE ROGAN: Well, there is certainly an issue, like I said with my friend Philip, that it made a radical difference in his sperm count and his testosterone levels. And so this is probably the case with so many Americans in this country that are dealing with infertility issues. A big part of it is probably these plasticizers. Plasticizers, all these various chemicals that are endocrine disruptors that are ubiquitous in the modern world?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yes, unfortunately. It’s crazy, by the way, not the women. Let me say something. We didn’t talk about the women last time very much, right?

JOE ROGAN: A little bit. We did. Yeah, I think we did.

The Effect on Women’s Health

SHANNA H. SWAN: So the women need testosterone too, you know, for sexual arousal and libido and so on and muscle. And we, in our study — Study for Future Families, I think, or maybe, yeah — we got the urine. We saw what they, you know, how much phthalates were in their urine. And then we asked them some questions about their sexual experience. So how satisfied were they with their sexual life and frequency? And the women who had higher levels of phthalates had less satisfaction and lower frequency. So it’s not just the men.

JOE ROGAN: Completely makes sense.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Everyone needs testosterone.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. My wife’s friend got on testosterone. She’s about 50. She got on testosterone because her doctor put her on some low level of cream or something like that. And her response was like, “It makes me horny like a bloke.” She’s English. I thought that was a very funny thing that she said it that way.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Did she think that was a good thing?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, she enjoyed it, apparently. Allegedly. I didn’t speak to her directly, but I think that’s what she was saying. Like, whoa. Just whoa.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah.

The Mainstream Silence on Endocrine Disruptors

JOE ROGAN: Well, I mean, it’s the thing that came out of your — the episode that we did — that shocked me the most is how little this is discussed in the mainstream. And I had not known until you brought it up, until you became a guest on the show, until I started researching it. I was stunned. I couldn’t believe that this was something that was so common.

And so one of the things that comes up all the time is infertility with couples that are trying and they’re using IVF, and it’s more common now than ever before. And there’s been a lot of things that people — a lot of factors that people have attributed to that reason. A lot of them being older people that are, you know, they put their careers aside in their 30s, they decided now it’s time to have kids. They’re worried that it’s too late.

But listening to you talk about it, it seems like that’s only one part of the issue and not the big part. The big part seems to be that we’re being poisoned. And we’re doing it by virtue of our modern world that we live in where so much of your life relies on plastic. And it’s very difficult for people that are so set in their ways. They have routines they don’t really understand, like, what can I do to eliminate this stuff from my life? Just having the conversation and understanding that these things are having an impact is great. But the steps that people need to take in order to eliminate these things from their life, I think that’s what’s really important to get out there now.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Thank you. You said it really well. Let me just give people a place to go. You go to onplasticyourlife.com, okay? And then there’s action. And then you can go to the various places in your home that you can.

JOE ROGAN: It’s just “Unplastic Your Life.” One word. Unplastic. Unplastic.com.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah. Let me see if I got that. Yeah. So onplasticyourlife.com, go to Action Hub and then to Protect Yourself. And that’ll give you lots of things to do to lower these exposures.

PFAS Chemicals: Beyond the Kitchen

JOE ROGAN: Nonstick cookware — that stuff happens. Is that different? Yeah, it was. When you have nonstick cookware, does that have any endocrine disrupting chemicals as well, but different ones? Which ones are those?

SHANNA H. SWAN: So those are what’s called the PFAS chemicals. And it’s actually not just cookware. It’s anything that puts a barrier between two mediums, if you will. Like a rain jacket will put a barrier between the rain and your skin. And also a stain resistant barrier with the stain. And it’s very, very prevalent. I mean, it’s all, you know, it’s in clothing. It’s in —

JOE ROGAN: I’ve read it’s in a lot of yoga tights and things along those lines.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yes. Workout clothes.

JOE ROGAN: That’s so crazy. You think you’re being healthy.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: You’re exposing yourself to endocrine disrupting chemicals in uniforms.

SHANNA H. SWAN: There’s a book — I should probably shouldn’t recommend another book, but I think it’s a good book. I’ll just say it’s called To Die for Dye. And it’s about the flight attendants’ uniforms and the harms that they do because they’re coated. They have a lot of PFAS because they, you know, have to keep clean. And they’ve got — they’re not clean, right, because they have this PFAS in them. It’s in sports uniforms. You do a lot with sports — all the sports uniforms.

JOE ROGAN: Nylon. Yeah. Is it anything with nylon? Is that what it is?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Probably, but I’m not sure. I could refer you to somebody, but I’m not the clothing expert. But I know that they’re in these things. And one of the things that is kind of scary is school uniforms. You know, a lot of kids have school uniforms and they’re loaded with it.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, yeah, yeah. My kids used to wear a uniform every day.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: When you say To Die for Dye — are dyes in cotton clothes also releasing?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yes.

JOE ROGAN: Really?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yes. Dyes are very risky.

JOE ROGAN: We’ve got to go back to being Amish. Yeah. Here it is.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Oh, good. Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Says, “In fact, there’s little or no regulation of clothes or textiles we wear each day — from uniforms to fast fashion, outdoor gear and even the face masks that have become ubiquitous in recent years. Wicker explains how we got here, what the stakes are, and all of us can do in the fight for a safe and healthy wardrobe for all.” Wow.

SHANNA H. SWAN: And that’s discussed in the film a little bit.

JOE ROGAN: Not the major, but it’s so — blue jeans.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Probably.

JOE ROGAN: Probably.

SHANNA H. SWAN: I can’t, you know, speak about it.

The Blue Jean Capital and River Pollution

JOE ROGAN: There is a river, I believe it’s in China, where a series of blue jean factories exist, where the entire river is blue. It’s so disgusting. Like not blue like beautiful clean water — blue like dyed.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Dyed water.

JOE ROGAN: Look at this. Look at that. Oh, that’s the blue jean capital of the world. That’s where they make a lot of blue jeans. And look at the stinky, dirty, disgusting blue dye water. That is just that river leaking out into the ocean, which also looks polluted. You want cheap clothes, kids, this is what happens. It’s so crazy. Like, look at that stuff. I mean, how many jeans are they making and what are the —

SHANNA H. SWAN: You know, and this is a good point for me to point out that these things are affecting animals, of course. Like the animals — fish in this —

JOE ROGAN: Look at this. African rivers as well. Of course, we do it in other places. If we did it in America, people would be aware.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Canada.

JOE ROGAN: Canada too.

SHANNA H. SWAN: I’m not sure they’d be aware.

JOE ROGAN: You don’t think so? We’re trying.

SHANNA H. SWAN: We’re trying.

JOE ROGAN: We’re trying to get them aware. I mean, that’s what we’re doing right now.

Declining Fertility: Choice vs. Chemical Exposure

SHANNA H. SWAN: Right, right. So to go back to that point you raised about, you know, reasons that people give for low testosterone or low fertility, low sperm count — and particularly this comes up for fertility. More couples are, you know, the fertility is in the toilet, right.

JOE ROGAN: Yes.

SHANNA H. SWAN: That’s a weird thing to say, but yeah.

JOE ROGAN: For lack of a better — yeah.

SHANNA H. SWAN: And I mean, used to be five children per couple on the average in 1960, and now it’s — in South Korea it’s like 0.88. Wow, that’s the worst, you know.

JOE ROGAN: Why is South Korea the worst?

SHANNA H. SWAN: I don’t know. I mean, all of Asia is very, very —

JOE ROGAN: South Korea’s replacement numbers are so low that they’re in danger of complete population collapse.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Absolutely. And Japan is getting there and, you know, all of that, Southeast Asia. And so when there’s a lot of articles about this, a lot of editorials, a lot of articles, and they make me so — Joe, they make me so mad because they say, correctly, that having a child at older age will do this to some extent. You know, not wanting to have as many children will do this to some extent. But they never mention toxics. They just —

And so I’ve written editorials saying, “Hey, guys, we’re not alone on this planet, and we’re not the only species that’s declining in number.” And then if you look at the curve of the number of species that are declining and the rate of decline of human fertility, they’re parallel. It’s all about 1% per year. And we know they’re exposed — these other species. You showed it. Those fish in that water are exposed. And, you know, animals on the periphery.

So I would love for everybody, when they look at these numbers of declining fertility, to consider that it’s not all choice, right. Animals are not choosing to have their children later or to delay childbearing, right.

JOE ROGAN: They have big careers. Beavers are trying to make dams. They don’t have time for children.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Right, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So for me, you know, it’s not — those are good, those are explanations for sure. Obviously, when you get older, your fertility is less. Obviously, if you have a busy life and you don’t have time to have children, you shouldn’t have children. But the toxics matter.

JOE ROGAN: They matter a lot, 100%. And the animals — the issue is exposure to water that has these chemicals in it because of pollution. What is causing it with that?

SHANNA H. SWAN: It’s in the water, it’s in the soil, it’s in what they eat. Because it comes in the plants.

JOE ROGAN: It gets into the plants.

The Impact of Endocrine Disruptors on Wildlife and Human Health

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah. Do you know that phthalates — this is a little fun fact — phthalates are put in pesticides. Why would they do that? Well, because one of the things that phthalates do is they increase absorption. That’s why they’re in hand cream. You put your hand cream on, it goes in your skin, right? Phthalates help that. You have the pesticide, you want it to go into the plant. Phthalates help that. So these exposures are all over the place. And animals are getting them too.

A long time ago — I don’t think we talked about this — but there was a wonderful scientist who’s not living anymore. His name is Lou Gillette. He lived in Florida and he showed that alligators swimming in a lake that had a lot of runoff of pesticides — get this — their penises were small. He measured them. And he was a big guy. He’s like you. He’s a big guy. He went at night, wrestled them into the boat. And I have pictures of that. Took them to his lab, measured their penises. Measured their penises.

JOE ROGAN: They must have been very confused when they got let go. Like, what is this guy kinky with? What is his thing?

SHANNA H. SWAN: And they had fewer eggs, right. So they were declining species. That’s just a very dramatic example of — can you put up penis size and alligator penis size?

JOE ROGAN: I’m just wondering, as if you don’t already google that. Jamie, let me find you a photo. I asked our Perplexity this thing, and it says — our sponsor Perplexity said, yes, this has actually been documented in wild alligators. Males in heavily polluted lakes have on average smaller penises and other reproductive problems linked to hormone disrupting chemicals. We are shrinking alligator penises, ladies and

SHANNA H. SWAN: gentlemen, and not only alligators.

JOE ROGAN: 20 to 25% smaller penis sizes compared to males from a cleaner reference lake. Males of lower testosterone levels around 70% lower. Abnormal relationships between hormone levels and penis growth. Unlike alligators from cleaner lakes, alligators from polluted lakes also show other reproductive issues. Abnormal sex hormone patterns, altered gonads, low hatching success, various birth defects, all consistent with exposure to endocrine disrupting contaminants, EDC, such as DDT derivatives, dieldrin, PCBs, and related compounds. Wow. So it’s all endocrine disruptors from pollution. Oh, boy. I mean, you would think that this would sound the alarm.

SHANNA H. SWAN: And this is not new. He’s dead. This is old work.

JOE ROGAN: And no one knows. Yeah, it’s never discussed. First of all, there’s not a lot of people that say first problem on my list today — alligator penis sizes, it’s a real issue. Like you’re in front of Congress. We gotta talk. Alligator penis sizes are shrinking. They’d kick you out of the building.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Actually, Louis Gillette went to Congress and he gave a talk and he said, “Every man in this room is half the man his grandfather was.”

JOE ROGAN: As far as testosterone levels. Right.

SHANNA H. SWAN: And penis. Well, he didn’t measure their penis. He was making this point. And fertility and all this. Yeah, yeah.

Population Decline and Reproductive Health

JOE ROGAN: Well, I mean, it completely makes sense. But what doesn’t make sense is how little attention that’s being paid. You would think that in a society — I mean, America is also facing a potential population collapse. People don’t think about that. But our reproduction numbers, we’re not reproducing. Yeah, they’re down quite a bit. And they’re not at the level that we need in order to keep our population.

SHANNA H. SWAN: It’s the normal shape of the population is like this, right. So this is up here, not very many people. And down here, lots and lots of people.

JOE ROGAN: And this is in terms of age, older, younger at the bottom. Right.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Lots of people are living longer, but few are down here. And then what that means is the ones down here are supposed to support the ones up here, but there’s not enough of them. Not enough of them.

JOE ROGAN: Right. Yeah.

SHANNA H. SWAN: So it’s a huge societal problem.

JOE ROGAN: Well, it’s just so confusing how few people are even aware of this. We were talking — I didn’t realize it had been five years since our last podcast, which is pretty crazy. But in that five years, you barely hear about it. It’s occasional people bring up certain chemicals they think are bad. Oh, avoid this. Paul Saladino was the one that showed that the paper cups that you get from a coffee shop — that if you take that paper away, what you have is essentially this plastic membrane, and that’s what you’re drinking your coffee out of. You’re not drinking your coffee out of paper. And how terrible these things are for you. But even that, it’s like people just dismiss it. The line around Starbucks is always the same. There’s always people going to get their coffee. They don’t think anything of it, and they’re just consuming these chemicals that mess up your health, mess up your vitality, your energy levels, everything. Brain fog.

SHANNA H. SWAN: But whose responsibility is it?

JOE ROGAN: Well, to talk about it? I think it’s ours. It’s certainly yours and mine. And we’ll spread this word. And more people discuss it. And I think more people need to be aware that this directly impacts you. Like, this is not like in the future. I don’t have to think about it. I’ll be dead. No, it directly impacts your health, your energy levels, your vitality right now as a living human being listening to this show.

SHANNA H. SWAN: So just to add to that, how it affects you — not you humans, maybe your levels are lower, I don’t know, but we’ll find out. But both men and women who have lower fertility — on average, these are studies. There have been about four or five studies that have shown this — lower fertility and sperm count on the male side. Die younger. Die younger. Okay. This should be of concern to everybody.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, yeah. You have less vitality, you have less energy.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah. And the things that affect your sperm, your vitality, your testosterone are also affecting — it’s a canary in the coal mine, if you will, of lots of things that are going south at the same

JOE ROGAN: time, which completely makes sense. And as the case of my friend Philip, all this fatigue, all these issues that he was experiencing. Yeah, yeah.

SHANNA H. SWAN: It’s not just one. Never just one thing.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

The Lack of Public Awareness

JOE ROGAN: It is quite disturbing how uncommon these discussions are, though. That’s what’s crazy. This should be a huge factor. I mean, we get concerned with so many — oh, there’s people concerned with alcohol consumption. It’s a big thing. And that has had an impact. Children today, or young adults, I should say today, are consuming much less alcohol than people in the past. Cigarette smoking — we’re aware, very dangerous. Much less cigarette smoking than in the past. The consumption of these endocrine disrupting chemicals is essentially the same as when we talked five years ago.

SHANNA H. SWAN: So I want to go back to this question I asked — whose responsibility is it? I don’t think — I mean, it’s great for you and I to be concerned and for your listeners to be concerned, but in fact, it shouldn’t be our responsibility because the FDA does drugs, right. They’re pretty good control of the safety of drugs. Pretty good. Yeah. Okay, we can talk about that. But compared to chemicals in our daily products, the products we use every day, it’s fantastic because the regulatory agencies are not doing the job.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Okay. And so that’s why it’s all out there. They’re not doing the job. Here in Europe, it’s much better, by the way.

JOE ROGAN: Is it?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Well, that’s bad because they’re going to beat us. They’ll out reproduce us. We’ll go away and they’ll take over. No more America.

SHANNA H. SWAN: We have to get people angry enough to put pressure on. There’s a bill, the TOSCA — Toxic Substances Control Act — which should be doing a lot of this, and I think it’s coming up for revision. And maybe people can pay attention to that and read about it and think the government should be doing this. It’s not our job. It’s not our job to worry about what’s in our pants and what’s in our this and our this and our this. You were asking what’s in denim and so on. Should we have to read up on that?

JOE ROGAN: Are there dyes for jeans and clothes that are not toxic?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yes, but as I said, this is not my area.

JOE ROGAN: I understand.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah, you got to get — I can give you a name if you want. Get somebody on clothing on this.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, I’d be happy to, but

SHANNA H. SWAN: just because it was relatively new to my consciousness when I was doing the film and before that, we didn’t collect data on that, unfortunately. Maybe we should do another study. Which reminds me, there is just so much work to be done, and for my program, there’s so many interventions I want to do that we did. This one was great success and now we’re doing another one and we have another one. But if anybody wants to help with this, it’s all privately funded. The government is not going to fund this.

JOE ROGAN: Right. Unfortunately.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Unfortunately. So let me know if anybody comes to you and says, how can we help and all of this.

Glyphosate and Industrial Agriculture

JOE ROGAN: Well, I’m sure somebody will reach out. They usually do. The thing that I would imagine would be the response to something like this was that there are so many industries that are established already that require the use of all these compounds, all these chemicals, all these endocrine disrupting chemicals. And it’s just everywhere. It’s everywhere in everything. They use plastic in the production of so many different things. These things are leaching into our food, they’re leaching into our clothes, they’re leaching into all these various products that we use that contribute to these chemicals entering into our body, disrupting that. So you’re aware of glyphosate. I’m sure they were trying to eliminate glyphosate from the industrial agriculture.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Good luck.

JOE ROGAN: Exactly. Well, the president passed an executive order blocking it because some enormous percent, 90 something percent of all of our food in terms of wheat, corn, all the agriculture in this country relies on glyphosate for production. And so the idea is we need poison so that we can make food, which is so crazy, especially when you consider the fact that all these other countries don’t use glyphosate and feed their population. So how are they doing it and what do we need to do to get back on that track?

And I had RFK Jr. in here to discuss it and he was very crestfallen when he was explaining that there was an executive order passed and that he was working very hard to try to eliminate glyphosate — something that he discussed in previous meetings that he and I had. That was one of his primary concerns. Glyphosate is toxic. It’s terrible. It’s just completely awful for your body. Yet the use of it is ubiquitous in agriculture, industrial agriculture. And he was trying very hard to try to eliminate it. And then the government passes this executive order because of their estimation. Yeah, exactly. Pressure. Yeah.

And this is what I worry about with — I don’t want to mention any names, but there’s a lot of these popular clothing brands that people wear that are fitness wear. I’m healthy, I’m fitness wear. And these fitness wear that you’re — these clothes that you’re wearing are leaching these chemicals into your body that are screwing up your health, which is so crazy.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Right.

JOE ROGAN: But it sort of encapsulates how screwed up our modern life is. Yes, the paradox.

SHANNA H. SWAN: So I did a study on glyphosate. I mean, I examined our populations for glyphosate and interestingly they also have an effect on — remember anogenital distance?

JOE ROGAN: Yes.

SHANNA H. SWAN: The taint size. They influenced the taint size.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Now that’s not — we did it in two studies and there’s been some animal studies. I can’t say this is an established fact, but I’m just pointing out that it has very many unforeseen consequences, none of them good. And by the way, I was asked to go to talk to RFK tomorrow but I can’t because I have another meeting. But I would love to talk to him about this because glyphosate is a big concern of mine.

JOE ROGAN: Well, I hope you do talk to him.

Water Filtration, Fluoride, and Chlorine Concerns

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah, he has these roundtables on different scientific topics. So this one is on microplastics, which is not perfect for me because I haven’t measured them, but if he has one on glyphosate or pesticides, that would be a good place.

JOE ROGAN: Well, his hands are tied right now on the glyphosate issue momentarily. They have some non-toxic solutions. One of them is they have this new device which is like the same way these machines pull the crops out of the ground. These machines go over the crops and zap all the non-essential crops with a laser beam. Non-essential crops, excuse me, non-essential plants. So weeds, I would say. So as the corn’s growing or whatever else it is, they’re zapping all the other stuff that’s growing around it that’s sucking up all the resources, all the weeds.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah, yeah, that sounds like a good step.

JOE ROGAN: That’s a great step.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Because it minimizes the use of pesticides.

JOE ROGAN: Exactly. And I asked, does it have any residual effect on the food? He said no. Well, that’s great. But then, farmers — one of the big problems is they’re already barely making money. So if you now require them to spend X amount of dollars on some gigantic weed-zapping laser that has to cover who knows how many acres they’re running.

These, I mean, I’m sure you’re aware, but monocrop agriculture — for people who’ve never seen some of these places that grow corn and wheat — you’re talking about these massive pieces of land that only grow one thing, which in nature doesn’t exist. So of course nature wants to rectify that. Nature’s like, “Why is there only wheat here? You need weeds.” And so birds drop seeds, all these seeds fly in the wind and then all these things grow. So you’re going to have to get these machines that are capable of traveling over all of those crops and zapping out all the weeds. How much is that going to cost to people that are already struggling?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Because the American farmers are barely getting by. Barely. And we need them. And the last thing you want to do is burden them with another cost. But also the use of — especially when it comes to things like wheat, because they’re using it after they harvest the wheat to dry it out quicker so it doesn’t grow mold on it. That’s why they’re using glyphosate. So it’s not even — it’s not even as a pesticide.

SHANNA H. SWAN: I know that.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. They’re using it as a — I guess a desiccator.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Wow.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. And that’s theorized to be why so many people in this country have a problem with bread.

SHANNA H. SWAN: And with their — no.

JOE ROGAN: And their tape. Yeah, a lot of tape problems. A lot of people are complaining. But it’s just so weird that we’re so intelligent and so informed and now we all have supercomputers in our pockets that have access to things like Perplexity that can answer any questions you have about anything. But yet we’re being poisoned by the very food that we eat, the coffee that we drink, the clothing that we wear.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Water.

JOE ROGAN: We drink the water. We drink everything. Here’s a good question. Are there any good filters on a consumer level that will remove a lot of these chemicals from water that a person could buy?

Distilling Water at Home

SHANNA H. SWAN: I can’t name any brands.

JOE ROGAN: Right. But are they available?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yes, there are.

JOE ROGAN: Is it reverse osmosis? Like, what are the ones that work the best?

SHANNA H. SWAN: I’ll tell you my solution in my house — that’s very personal. We distill our water. So the water out of the tap goes into a big container and then it’s boiled. Steam is formed, crosses over, and the steam is condensed into another container.

JOE ROGAN: Right, right.

SHANNA H. SWAN: And that has nothing in it. It removes everything. And by the way, all germs also. So that’s what we’ve chosen. And in this thing that sits on the counter, my husband does this every other day. It’s kind of a nuisance, but not too bad. And the water is fantastic.

JOE ROGAN: Do you have to remineralize it?

SHANNA H. SWAN: You should take minerals somewhere. You can do it in the water, you can do it in your supplements. It does remove the minerals.

JOE ROGAN: Yes, right. And that’s what I’ve heard is the problem with drinking distilled water — is that it actually leaches minerals and nutrients from your own body.

SHANNA H. SWAN: That I don’t believe.

JOE ROGAN: No, I don’t believe that either.

SHANNA H. SWAN: But the water itself has had its minerals removed.

JOE ROGAN: Well, let’s put it into Perplexity. “What is the issue with drinking distilled water for health purposes? And is it recommended that you add electrolytes or minerals or what have you?”

Because that’s one of the things that fighters do when they’re cutting weight. I don’t think most of them do it anymore, but a lot of them were drinking distilled water so that the water would go in their system and right out of their system. Because cutting weight for fighting — I don’t know if you know about this, but they have to weigh in at a certain weight class and essentially what they do is radically dehydrate themselves 24 hours before a fight, which is not a great idea. It’s a terrible idea.

So Perplexity says: “It is generally safe to drink distilled water. Most people do not need to add minerals to it as long as they eat a reasonably balanced diet. Distilled water is simply water that has been boiled and recondensed. So it’s very low in contaminants and minerals. Health sources note that it is safe to drink but tends to taste flat because minerals like calcium and magnesium are removed.”

“What about minerals? You get the vast majority of needed minerals — calcium, magnesium, potassium, etc. — from food, not water. So distilled water alone does not usually cause deficiencies in healthy people with a good diet. However, some organizations and reviews point out that long-term use of very low mineral water may slightly reduce mineral intake, and in specific groups — children, heavy exercisers” — there we go — “people with certain illnesses — could contribute to electrolyte imbalance if diet is poor.”

“So when might adding minerals help? If distilled water is your main or only drinking water and your diet is low in fruits, vegetables and other mineral-rich foods, adding a pinch of mineral salt or using a remineralization cartridge” — that sounds terrible, cartridge sounds like plastic, right? — “or drops can help restore small amounts of calcium, magnesium and electrolytes and improve taste. Athletes who sweat heavily, people with kidney or hormonal issues affecting electrolytes, and those on very restricted diets should be more cautious about relying exclusively on distilled water and may benefit from electrolyte or mineral replacement as advised by a clinician.”

I mean, I recommend people take electrolytes anyway. I always add electrolytes to water every day.

Archie the Cat Prefers Distilled Water

SHANNA H. SWAN: Here’s a funny anecdote. We have a cat — what’s your cat’s name? His name is Archie.

JOE ROGAN: Archie.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Archie. And Archie comes, patrols the house and steals our water. Whenever possible, he comes and drinks from our glasses unless we cover them up.

JOE ROGAN: So I think Archie probably likes your water because it doesn’t smell like poison to him.

SHANNA H. SWAN: He loves our water. And he has the choice of his own water, which comes out of the tap. And he will 100% prefer our distilled water.

JOE ROGAN: Which makes sense. If you think about a cat’s sense of smell, it’s got to be off the charts. So he can probably smell that this water’s got a bunch of junk in it.

SHANNA H. SWAN: And when you do the process — which Stephen does every other day — and he goes to clean the container that you put the water in, it stinks. It really stinks. You would be shocked.

JOE ROGAN: Wow. Well, we have a crazy filter at our house. We have well water and then we have this crazy filter, this giant machine that filters all the water. Tastes delicious, but it’s not distilled.

SHANNA H. SWAN: I’m not saying that you shouldn’t distill — that’s an alternative. I mean, sorry, you shouldn’t filter. That’s an alternative. But I’m just saying what we chose to do.

Fluoride in Water and Its Health Implications

JOE ROGAN: And so the distilling — it removes chlorine and all these other issues that are in the water as well. Yeah. And fluoride, everything. Yeah. Fluoride is another one that’s bananas — that we add to water under the guise that it helps your teeth. Like, shut up. Brush your teeth. I don’t have any cavities. I don’t use fluoride. I have fluoride-free toothpaste. I don’t have fluoride in my water. It’s dumb. It’s not just dumb — it’s completely connected to lower IQs. There’s a direct correlation between higher fluoride content in water and lower IQs. But there’s a giant business involved in selling fluoride to these municipal water supplies.

SHANNA H. SWAN: I know.

JOE ROGAN: Which is nuts. More poison. And we are so screwed up.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Chlorination.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

SHANNA H. SWAN: And I’ve studied for years — I studied chlorination byproducts, and they cause miscarriage.

Chlorine Exposure in Swimming Pools

JOE ROGAN: So it’s got to be terrible for people that swim a lot in public pools, right?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah, I know.

JOE ROGAN: Because then it’s being absorbed by your skin.

SHANNA H. SWAN: I don’t know how much exposure you get in the relatively short time you’re swimming. I don’t know.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, let’s find out. Put that into Perplexity. “How much of an issue is chlorine exposure in swimming pools?” Let’s find out. We don’t know. We’re learning so much.

SHANNA H. SWAN: There’s a little science.

JOE ROGAN: I feel like that question is going to get tossed around here by Perplexity because it could go multiple ways with it. Like, is there too much chlorine? Right. Okay, let’s say, “Is chlorine exposure in swimming pools a health concern?”

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah, that’s good.

JOE ROGAN: There we go. Try that. I bet it is. I mean, it only makes sense. I would like to study someone like Michael Phelps — someone who spent his life, thousands of hours in a pool — whether or not it’s affected his body in any way, whether or not there are measurable chlorine levels in his urine or what have you.

“Chlorine in properly maintained pools is generally considered safe, but it can cause irritation of eyes, skin and airways.” Well, that can’t be good. “And heavy, frequent exposure, especially indoors, can contribute to respiratory problems in some people.”

“What chlorine does in pools: it kills germs like bacteria and viruses and is key for preventing infections and diarrheal illnesses from contaminated water. Public health guidance typically recommends free chlorine about 1 to 4 parts per million with pH 7.0 to 7.8. Within this range, disinfection is effective and side effects are usually mild.”

“Common short-term effects: irritation of eyes, nose, throat, skin — common when levels are high. When chloramines build up, especially in indoor pools, chloramines form when chlorine reacts with sweat, urine and other organic matter, can become airborne and irritate the respiratory tract, causing coughing, wheezing or tight chest in some swimmers and staff. Long-term, regular, heavy exposure in indoor, poorly ventilated pools has been linked to increased respiratory symptoms. Some studies suggest increased asthma risk.”

Okay, put this in as a follow-up question: “Is exposure to chlorine through the skin responsible for any health issues? Just through the skin.” See if there’s any studies on that.

“Chlorine getting into the body through intact skin from pool water does not appear to cause systemic, whole-body health problems in otherwise healthy people. Its effects are almost entirely local to the skin itself. What skin exposure actually does: chlorine is an irritant that strips the natural skin oils, disrupts the outer barrier, leading to dryness, tightness, itching.”

So put this in: “What exposure does chlorine have to healthy skin flora?” Because healthy skin flora — I do jiu-jitsu and one of the things that happens with jiu-jitsu is you get a lot of skin diseases.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Really.

Skin Health, Jiu-Jitsu, and Defense Soap

JOE ROGAN: People get ringworm, staph infections. Well, you’re getting scratched up a lot. You’re rolling around on the mats and if the mats are dirty, there’s exposure to it and you can have a problem. And then one of the problems people have is to treat that, they use antibacterial skin soap. So what that does is strip the skin of all the healthy flora, which actually protects you.

The counter to that — I always bring this up, I have no affiliation with this product, but it’s an excellent product — it’s called Defense Soap. Defense Soap is my friend Guy Sacco’s invention. He’s a wrestling coach. And his solution was using healthy things like tea tree oil and eucalyptus in the soap that kills the bad bacteria but does nothing to the healthy flora.

SHANNA H. SWAN: That’s great.

Safe Food Storage Alternatives & Cooking Methods

JOE ROGAN: Yes. So that’s the only soap that I use. Chlorinated pool water does disturb normal skin flora temporarily, but in healthy people, the microbiome usually recovers within hours to a day or so after swimming. So that’s a problem. If you swim every day, then chlorine is a broad disinfectant. So it kills or suppresses both good and bad bacteria on the skin surface, reducing overall microbial diversity right after swimming.

Experimental and field studies show that even short exposure can cut measured microbiome diversity markedly. Often cited around 30 to 40% with composition shifting away from the usual dominant groups right after a swim.

How long disruption lasts: after leaving the pool, many of the resident species begin to recolonize from deeper skin layers, hair follicles and the environment, and community composition tends to drift backward towards baseline over the next 24 plus hours. With frequent, repeated swimming, daily or high volume training, the skin may be in a more chronically perturbed state with less time for full microbiome recovery in between exposures.

I know a lot of people have switched their pools over to saltwater pools for this very reason. I think there’s a problem with saltwater pools in very high temperature areas though, where it’s not effective enough to stop mold and all the junk.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Right, right, right.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Do you want to see these products I brought?

JOE ROGAN: I would love to see these products I brought.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Here you go. These are for cleaning up your stuff.

JOE ROGAN: What’s up, Jimmy? A note on what you just said. A saltwater pool is still technically a chlorine pool.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Oh, still a chlorine pool. It just makes the chlorine instead of pouring it in.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, yeah. Salt systems work — pool is ordinary salt, sodium chloride dissolved in the water, usually around 2,700 to 3,400 parts per million, which is about one tenth the salinity of the ocean and close to body fluid levels. The water passes through an electrically charged salt cell which uses electrolysis to convert some of that salt into active chlorine, mainly hypochlorous acid and sodium hypochlorite, that sanitizes the pool. After chlorine does its job, it ends up back as chloride and the cycle repeats. So you keep generating chlorine as long as the system runs and there’s enough salt.

What’s different from your standard chlorine pool? You still have free chlorine in the water at typical pool levels, about one to four parts per million. The difference is the source — salt generator versus liquid tablet chlorine — not the sanitizer itself. Most people find salt pools a bit gentler. The water feels softer and continuous low level generation can mean fewer chloramines, less smell and irritation, if the system is sized and maintained correctly.

Interesting. Okay, so it’s still chlorine. So it still probably disturbs your microbiome, which sucks.

Examining Safer Food Storage Products

SHANNA H. SWAN: Should be open.

JOE ROGAN: No, it’s not sealed. It’s tight. What do we got in here? A lot of stuff.

SHANNA H. SWAN: So in the movie you’ll see that I came to the homes of the participants with a big box about this big. So this is obviously a very small part of that. This is just part of your kitchen.

JOE ROGAN: Bags that are safe. Oven, freezer, microwave. It’s called Zip Top.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah, they’re silicone. They’re made of silicone.

JOE ROGAN: Okay. So silicone’s okay.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Silicone — there is food grade silicone.

JOE ROGAN: Okay.

SHANNA H. SWAN: And that is like spatulas. Yeah. And food grade silicone is free of phthalates and so you can use that.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, this is a lot thicker.

SHANNA H. SWAN: This is like a lot thicker.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, yeah. And so this is reusable.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Is that the idea? Absolutely. And you just store — put your food in the fridge in that instead of in a…

JOE ROGAN: So you can buy these things. This company, Zip Top, do they make them specifically for that reason?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah, I’m sure. Yeah. There’s one of many companies that makes…

JOE ROGAN: So this is essentially like a Ziploc bag.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Exactly.

JOE ROGAN: Way thicker. Yeah. Kind of cool. And so they make these larger as well. So you can. Okay.

SHANNA H. SWAN: There are a lot of good alternatives for food storage. Glass, of course, is really good. And ceramic, it seems so much better

JOE ROGAN: too, because it’s not creating as much plastic waste since it’s reusable. Now, do you just run this through a dishwasher? Now what about dishwashing solvents and detergents and stuff like that?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Oh, yeah, there’s always problems. Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: World’s filled with problems.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Jamie, the pods are probably not great.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, right, of course. Right. Damn. Pods.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Pods. Tea bags, coffee pods. Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Remember when kids were eating Tide Pods? It’s like nature’s trying to get rid of some of the dummies. Okay, so this company, I think there’s

SHANNA H. SWAN: two of those in there. Yeah, these are just little examples.

JOE ROGAN: You know, give this company a shout out. It’s called Zip Top. And I guess they make them all sizes. This is like sandwich size. Yeah, this is, I guess, a snack size. And they make them larger too.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah. And they seal well.

The Sous Vide Question: Are Plastic Bags Leaching Chemicals?

JOE ROGAN: You know, that’s another question that I had about sous vide. There’s a lot of people that cook their food in these sous vide machines.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Really?

JOE ROGAN: That’s very common. Yeah.

SHANNA H. SWAN: I thought it was kind of high, you know, kind of in restaurants and stuff.

JOE ROGAN: Well, I mean, I know there’s consumer versions of it that I know a lot of my friends use it. Yeah, they use it for wild game in particular, because you can slow cook. So one of the things about wild game, it has a very low fat content and a lot of people find that it’s more tender if you slowly cook.

So let’s say if you like medium rare — like, what is medium rare? Like 135 degrees, I think. So what you would do is you would take this piece of meat and you would seal it up in a vacuum sealed container and you dunk it in this sous vide machine and it keeps the water at 135 degrees. You can cook it for several hours at 135, and then you sear the outside of it.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Nice. Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: And so a lot of people like that. And it’s really good for breaking down some of the harder stuff, like the fascia gristle.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: So is that stuff leaking chemicals into your food? It has to be, right?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Why?

JOE ROGAN: Well, because it’s in plastic. You’re getting these vacuum sealed plastic bags that the food goes in. Have you seen how sous vide works? Have you seen how these sous vide things work?

SHANNA H. SWAN: No. Then it’s bad. Then it sounds just as bad as microwaving in plastic.

JOE ROGAN: Right. So what you do with sous vide is you season the food and a lot of times you’ll add like olive oil and things like that to the outside of it.

SHANNA H. SWAN: You couldn’t make it out of silicone.

JOE ROGAN: I would imagine you could, right? I don’t know. Let’s find that out. Has anybody made silicone based sous vide bags? And do these sous vide bags leach chemicals? I just saw a discussion on Reddit about this, but they didn’t really have any — like they’re asking. The temperatures might not be high enough. I don’t know. Yeah. What are the temperatures that you need that start these chemicals leaching into — from the plastics, into your water? Because a lot of times they say, don’t leave a bottle of water in your car.

SHANNA H. SWAN: That’s right.

JOE ROGAN: Because your car can get really hot. So how hot does your car get? It doesn’t get that hot. It doesn’t get like cooking hot. So it’s like, what is…

SHANNA H. SWAN: But if the sous vide bags don’t have plasticizers in them, like, if they’re made of silicone — food based food. What is it? Food grade silicone? Yeah, similar.

JOE ROGAN: So it says we use vacuum sealed bags. We’re really going through them right now. Even on early sous vide, I tried silicone reusable and I wasn’t happy. I don’t really recall why. I think it was hard to get stuff in without a mess. Okay, that doesn’t make any sense. Just deal with the mess we made. Switch to vacuum bags. I love it, but oof. We use a lot of bags. Okay. Put this into Perplexity, please do. “Sous vide bags leach endocrine disrupting chemicals into your food when you cook with them.” Let’s try that. Sweet. We’re learning things.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Does it have to be vacuum sealed? Probably, right? Because you don’t want water leaking in there. Yeah. You don’t want water leaking in the one. I have a machine like, and I use this vacuum sealed machine, like, so if I get wild game and then I cut it up into pieces and then I seal it in these vacuum sealed bags to freeze it.

Silicone based sous vide bags are generally considered safe for food use and do not significantly leach — “significantly” is a weird word — leach harmful chemicals under typical cooking conditions. High quality food grade silicone is inert, BPA free. Right. This is silicone though. Food grade silicone shows minimal chemical migration such as siloxanes, especially compared to plastics, which can release microplastics like BPA. This is silicone though.

What was the question that you asked? How’d you phrase it? Well, you were asking — okay, you write silicone based sous vide bags. Just let’s not. Silicone based — just like plastic sous vide bags.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Well, you know they’re going to leach stuff.

JOE ROGAN: Let’s find out. Regular plastic sous vide bags. Let’s see what it says. Right. But I want to make sure that it’s vacuum sealed sous vide bags. It should know that we’re talking about sous vide bags here.

Regular plastic bags can be reasonably — I don’t like that word — safe for sous vide if you use the right kind: food grade, BPA and phthalate free, and rated for hot food. But all plastics can leak some chemicals and the data specific to sous vide is still limited.

What regular bags are safe? Look for bags made with polyethylene and/or polypropylene that are labeled food grade and microwave safe. Is there a plastic that’s microwave safe though? Is that real? Yeah. These are considered safe with food up to around 190 to 195 Fahrenheit. Most brands — Ziploc, Glad — are polyethylene, BPA and dioxin free, and are commonly used for sous vide at typical temperatures below 176.

Purpose made vacuum sealer or boil-in sous vide pouches — that’s what I use — are specifically certified as food grade for cooking and are the safest plastic option if you want disposable. So it seems like it’s reasonably safe to do that.

Review by Utah’s Department of Health notes that there’s a lack of studies directly measuring chemical leaching from sous vide bags, but recommends using FDA compliant, BPA and phthalate free plastics which are not known for estrogenic activity and are considered safe for food contact.

Okay, it says — see, it says there one trout study found detectable BPA in fish cooked. But the problem is food — like here’s the problem. Freshwater lakes. If you’re catching a trout in a freshwater lake, freshwater lakes have horrible levels of these chemicals in them. And most people do not recommend eating food from freshwater lakes, which is so crazy. You think, “Oh, I’m going to go catch a fish from a lake. This is going to be really healthy. It’s ripe from nature.” Now we’ve ruined lakes.

The Dangers of Eating Fish from Freshwater Lakes

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah. What is the issue?

JOE ROGAN: Put this in. “What is the issue with eating fish from freshwater lakes in America? What are the health issues?” Yeah, eating fish from freshwater lakes in America. We’ve looked this up before. It’s kind of stunning how much chemicals you get from a single fish that you would catch. So if you catch a trout from a regular lake — you go to a lake, looks clean, I can see the bottom, everything’s fine — no, it’s bad for you.

In fact, I know a guy who is friends with someone who does a lot of fishing tournaments. So he goes to these fishing tournaments, catches a lot of fish. He eats a lot of fish, obviously, and he got horribly, horribly sick because of heavy metal poisoning.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Isn’t it terrible?

Everyday Products and Chemical Exposure

JOE ROGAN: Crazy. You think you’re eating fresh fish that you’ve caught yourself. It’s got to be good, right?

SHANNA H. SWAN: It’s got to be bad for the fish.

JOE ROGAN: Eating US freshwater fish can expose you to chemical contaminants like mercury and PFAS, and if eaten undercooked or raw, parasites and some bacteria. Most people can still eat freshwater fish safely if they follow local advisories and avoid high risk groups. Pregnant people, young children eating too much. Main chemical risks, mercury, methyl mercury. Nearly all wild fish contain some mercury, but levels of many US freshwater fish can be high enough to harm a fetus or a young child’s developing brain and nervous system if eaten often. That’s crazy. PFAS forever chemicals. Many US freshwater fish have measurable PFAS and in some studies show widespread PFAS plus mercury and fish tissue at levels that pose health risks for frequent consumers. PFAS exposure has been linked to changes in liver and kidney function, cholesterol, immune response, pregnancy complications, and increased risk of certain cancers.

SHANNA H. SWAN: I don’t know why they haven’t mentioned autoimmune immune response. Oh, they do say immune. Immune response. Yes.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. Immune response.

PFAS and the Immune System

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah. This guy in Denmark studied people on the Faroe Islands, which they all eat fish. They catch them, you know, the Faroe Islands, and they catch them there. And so he looked at the levels of PFAS, and then he looked at their antibody response to vaccination. Oh, down. And so think of what that means in, you know, like, this time of COVID or whatever.

I want to do an intervention where we take kids who are getting PFAS-free school uniforms. Remember I told you PFAS was in school uniforms? And then when they come in at age 6 for their first, you know, grade, they will have just had their booster. So then we could get their blood and see if the booster, you know, antibody levels were lower in the kids that had the PFAS uniforms versus the clean uniform booster, for which vaccines,

JOE ROGAN: For which vaccines?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Mumps pertussis, MMR, I think is called.

JOE ROGAN: And so it’s lower. It’s a lower response if your body’s exposed to these chemicals. So you would imagine even if you’re not, you just lower response period to all immune function based on this.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Right, right.

Safer Alternatives for Everyday Use

JOE ROGAN: What are these things?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Loofah mints. So you can use them to scrub your sink or your face.

JOE ROGAN: You can use them in the shower.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah, or in the shower.

JOE ROGAN: You should use those for your cleaning.

SHANNA H. SWAN: But the sponges that most people use have a lot of chemicals in them.

JOE ROGAN: Of course. Makes sense.

SHANNA H. SWAN: So these are better.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, they’re plastic sponges. And you get them in hot water and you’re scrubbing things. And some of the stuff probably gets in your plates and your food and your cooking water.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah. So that works good.

JOE ROGAN: What else we got here? Bees wrap.

SHANNA H. SWAN: That’s really nice stuff.

JOE ROGAN: What is this stuff?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Actually, you can treat. This is some kind of paper that’s been treated with beeswax, so nothing dirty there. And take it out, you’ll see how nice it is. I love this stuff. I have a lot of it. Because it seals the wax. That’s the wax.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, okay. So you use that to wrap your food with.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah. And it seals on itself, and you just rinse it out afterwards so you don’t have to use Saran Wrap. And, you know, all these.

JOE ROGAN: It does seal on itself. It seems like it form fits around things.

SHANNA H. SWAN: You can put it on an egg or tomato or anything.

JOE ROGAN: Well, with my friend Philip, I guarantee he eats a lot of sushi. He runs a sushi place. And if you ever go to a sushi place, all the fish is wrapped in plastic. Yeah, they’re always wrapped in plastic, and then they cut it open. And so the exposure to all this stuff, you should use this stuff. It probably has the same level of sealing as plastic wrap.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Might be more expensive, though. Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: What’s your health worth? But it’s also reusable, which.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Oh, absolutely. Just wash it.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, that’s the thing. It’s probably economical in the long run because plastic wrap, you don’t reuse unless you’re a cyclist.

SHANNA H. SWAN: And it gets all over the world, everywhere.

JOE ROGAN: I’m sure you’ve seen the Pacific Garbage Patch, which is crazy, right? These are bags. And these bags are called Wowee, W-O-W-E-E. Right. And what is this?

SHANNA H. SWAN: It’s another food storage, you know, choice option.

JOE ROGAN: Paper or. No, no, it’s cloth.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Cloth. But clean cloth. Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: And so you use this like for bread.

SHANNA H. SWAN: It’s really good for bread, cookies, you know, stuff like that. Okay, yeah, we use those.

JOE ROGAN: And so are all these different products listed on your website? So people can.

SHANNA H. SWAN: They’re listed on the Million Marker. There’s a card there to scan the QR code and you can go to that.

JOE ROGAN: But it would be nice if there’s like a one stop shop. So if you scan the QR code, is there a one stop shop? Like, people listening to this right now, can we send them to a website? What website would that be?

SHANNA H. SWAN: I don’t, I can’t remember. Look at the card.

JOE ROGAN: This one. Tips for detox journey. So this is the QR. So if I scan this right now, it’ll take me there? Yeah, that’s my phone. This world that we live in. We’re not ready. Okay. It says the website is millionmarker.com chemical glossary. So this is the chemical glossary that’s on this card. But it doesn’t.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Not the products, right?

JOE ROGAN: It doesn’t say the products. It says partners.

SHANNA H. SWAN: So there’s products on that other website. I told you on Plastic Your Life.

JOE ROGAN: On plasticyourlife.com. So that’s a place where people can go and see these products.

SHANNA H. SWAN: So there’s three steps on plasticyourlife.com action hub. Protect yourself. And then it can tell you how to protect yourself against various things in different rooms. I have it by rooms, I think.

JOE ROGAN: What is this one, Jamie? This one says. This is the same website. I just already went to the action. Oh. So when you go to unplasticyourlife.com it takes you to OSP Society, it redirects to this website. Got it. And then go to the action hub. Protect your family. And then are the products listed down there? Okay. Yeah, there it is. Okay. Single. Okay. Non plastic bags, non steel cookware. Got it. Replace the plastic cutting boards with wood. So I think some people use titanium, which is fine too. Right. And then what’s above that? Steel. Single use drinking water containers. Never use plastics to store your food in. Never heat plastics. Holy. Save your skin by selecting personal care products with natural ingredients such in glass or tin packaging. Oh, boy. So disturbing.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Washing your clothes.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

The Hidden Dangers of Fragrance

SHANNA H. SWAN: By the way, we didn’t talk about smell.

JOE ROGAN: Smell.

SHANNA H. SWAN: But everything that’s fragranced has phthalates, of course. And you know, like, you think you’re doing good if you hang that little pine tree in your car.

JOE ROGAN: Not good.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Not good. And you plug in things in the wall that are supposed to clean up your air and, you know, refresh your air and so on. Not good.

JOE ROGAN: There’s ones that are in cars now, like certain cars. I think Mercedes has one where you refill it and you can. It actually will spray air freshener through the vents. Does Mercedes do that? I think it’s Mercedes, which makes sense, you know, luxury. I want to smell like lavender as I’m driving. Ah, look at me in my luxurious car, smelling lavender, dying of chemical exposure.

SHANNA H. SWAN: We asked women on this, our, you know, our study. We said, what do you use? And then we said, was it fragranced? And anything where they said that was fragranced, their body burden of phthalates was higher.

JOE ROGAN: Of course. What about natural deodorants?

SHANNA H. SWAN: I don’t know.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, because I use natural deodorant to try to avoid a lot of that stuff. On their website it says it’s a miscellaneous dangerous good. I think. I don’t know what that is. What? It says miscellaneous dangerous goods. Maybe it’s when they ship it or something. Other dangerous substances. The interior of the vehicle will be fragranced. It says it right there. This is under Mercedes under their smell aroma system. Pacific mood. Ooh, I want a Pacific mood. I’m living on the coast. I’m fabulous. And it says miscellaneous dangerous goods. Other dangerous substances. That’s crazy that it’s labeled that way. The interior of the vehicle can be fragranced to suit your own individual preference. With the air balance package. Flacon Pacific Mood. Lemon and orange top notes accompanied by a blend of spices. Ah, but meanwhile, it’s probably not good for you. So what is in there? They’re engineered specifically. Does it say what? They’re also subject to rigorous testing, which means each part comes fully certified. In the end, you can be sure that your vehicle will perform up to its potential. Mile after mile. I don’t know if you want to try this. Whoa. Can you say that word, doctor?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Oh, no. GIF.

JOE ROGAN: Good 10 Zaken. I’m guessing it means dangerous goods. But other dangerous. They’re calling it dangerous. That sounds really crazy. Miscellaneous dangerous goods, like hazard warnings. This is crazy. Why would they say on their website. Yeah, and then you’re spraying it and you’re breathing it in. It could be very well like one of those California rules where they say, like, this building has got dangerous chemicals that could cause cancer in people. And it has to be. Oh, this is a garden.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: But it’s just weird that that’s in the actual stuff that you breathe in and smell. You know, I’ve heard another thing that’s really bad for you is incense.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Probably varies with the. You know what’s in it. I wouldn’t blanket all incense. I don’t. I haven’t studied that.

The Risks of Incense and Candles

JOE ROGAN: Well, let’s put that into Perplexity. What are the. Because I know candles are bad for you. Scented candles in particular.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Scented. Yes, yes. There’s their aroma again. See, one of the things that phthalates do is they cause something to hold scent, retain scent. So they’re put into perfume and they’re put into makeup and they’re put into, you know, the things you put on your wall. And so, you know, you want something to smell for a long time, you’re going to use phthalates.

JOE ROGAN: It says burning incense products smoke and chemicals that can irritate your lungs, worsen asthma and allergies, and with heavy long term use in poorly ventilated spaces, may increase risk for heart disease and some cancers. You know, you think incense, you go over someone’s house, they do yoga, they eat vegan, they burn incense. They must be healthy, right?

Long term health risks. Repeated long term exposure, daily for years, has been associated in studies with increased risk of bronchitis, reduced lung function in children, and chronic respiratory symptoms in workers heavily exposed to temple incense. God. Epidemiological studies, mostly in Asian populations with heavy daily use, have linked long term incense exposure to higher rates of cardiovascular problems, hypertension, coronary artery disease, stroke, chronic limb. What’s that word?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Ischemia.

JOE ROGAN: Ischemia. What’s that mean? What does ischemia mean? That can’t be good. Sounds terrible. What is ischemia? Oh, lack of blood flow to part of a body, usually because an artery is narrowed or blocked. Severe or prolonged, the affected tissue could be damaged or die. Oh, great. Oh, wonderful.

So you think about incense, you think like healthy, natural people. Oh, they burn incense. It sounds lovely. It sounds like they’re spiritual. Ah, incense. I used to love incense. I used to use it all the time. Thought it was cool. Made you, like, you know, be more peaceful. Incense bad for you. Everything’s bad for you.

You know what’s bad for you? These straws, if you trip with them. You know, a lot of people have died. These are metal straws.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Really?

JOE ROGAN: They’ve died because they’re on their phone and they’re not paying attention. They stub their toe and fall, and this thing goes through their eyeball and they die.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah, okay. I won’t recommend that, but also, you

JOE ROGAN: could die just falling. I mean, if you’re falling and you’re holding a steel straw, throw it to the side. That’s my advice.

The Plastic Detox Documentary & Lifestyle Changes

SHANNA H. SWAN: So if you want to do this little experiment of one that we’re talking about. N. Of one. Unless Jamie wants to do it too.

JOE ROGAN: Jamie’s in. Look at him. He’s down.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Then Jenna or somebody on her team, if you had an hour, half an hour, I don’t know how long it took. Call you said, ask you what did you use? What did you use? What did you use for this. This. This. Right. And then they’ll recommend what to change.

JOE ROGAN: Right. I recently underwent this plasmapheresis.

SHANNA H. SWAN: I know. Thing.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. And that’s supposed to remove a lot of that stuff from your blood. Correct. So my. But I’ll tell you what. The next day, I was very tired that day. Like, exhausted that day. But the next day afterwards, I felt, like, lighter. I felt like, whoa, this is crazy. I felt like I had more energy. Like, it was, like, kind of late at night. I was like, I’m not tired at all. This is weird. Like, I felt different, you know?

SHANNA H. SWAN: So that would be great. Are you going to do it again?

JOE ROGAN: No, I just did it. I mean, I would do it again, but I just did it a few days ago.

SHANNA H. SWAN: I was just wondering, you know, if you measured chemicals in your urine before you did that.

JOE ROGAN: I should have done that.

SHANNA H. SWAN: And then after that, I don’t have —

JOE ROGAN: — any pee laying around from before, but I could do it now. And maybe I have very low level. And we could attribute that to. Because I. I haven’t done the best job. Well, like I said, I did get rid of my plastic coffee machine at home. I did that about three or four weeks ago.

One of the things it’s done is it’s made my morning coffee a lot harder to get. It’s more of, like, a ritual now because I use a steel water boiler thing that heats it up to 200 degrees, and then I have a steel French press, and I grind the beans in a steel thing. Right. And then I pour the beans in the French press, and it takes 15 minutes rather than 30 seconds. Tastes way better.

But I’m a big coffee drinker. I love coffee, but I like it black. Like, I love the flavor of coffee. I really do. And so it just tastes better. It tastes French press, I think is the best way to drink coffee anyway. And so I kind of decided, like, why am I. I’m avoiding all these microplastics. I don’t drink out of plastic or paper cups. I do all these different things. Why am I still using a plastic coffee machine? I look at that thing every morning and I was like, yeah, but it’s going to give me coffee right now. So I press the button to get my coffee right now. Then I was like, that’s stupid. So now I just. I only use something like this.

Yeah. So I’d be interested to see if maybe I have low levels because I certainly feel like my body, it felt refreshed, like I had less inflammation, you know, but that’s like a two hour procedure. It’s a pain in the butt, you know, you got to sit there for two hours. You look like a psycho. You know, like I should have taken a photo of what I looked like while I was doing it because I was laying there and I had like cords in this arm and cords in that arm. So I had blood coming out of that arm and going back into that arm. Really kind of nutty.

SHANNA H. SWAN: How expensive?

JOE ROGAN: I don’t know. Oh, yeah, I don’t know. But I’m sure it’s not cheap. But the benefits of it, in terms of like, the people that I know that have done it, said it’s a game changer in terms of your recovery, marked recovery levels, much better sleep. Like if you’re wearing an Oura ring or a Whoop strap or something along those lines, you get much better recovery.

And I think that’s probably the case with me. I feel pretty good, but I do a lot of stuff, you know, I do a lot of things to maximize my health. So it’s really kind of difficult to know, like, what’s doing what. Yeah, I just know, all in all —

SHANNA H. SWAN: — you know, we always say, you know, in my field, you know, do one thing at a time.

JOE ROGAN: Right? Of course, if you’re doing science. Yeah, yeah, I’m not doing science. I’m doing chaos.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah, well, you’re doing, you know, experiment of one, so.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, but it works. All of it together is definitely working. My body’s pretty good, so, you know —

The Fossil Fuel Industry and Plastic Regulation

SHANNA H. SWAN: — you were mentioning how it’s going to be very hard to get these things regulated. And I just wanted to point out we probably talked about this last time. But you know, where do these chemicals come from, these plasticizers? And you probably know they’re made from fossil fuel byproducts. Yes. So the forces against eliminating them are not only the manufacturers of the plastic, but it’s also the fossil fuel industry. So that makes it extremely difficult.

JOE ROGAN: Right? Yeah, yeah. And it’s probably one of the primary factors and why this isn’t discussed because it would reduce fossil fuel consumption, which would affect oil markets, which would affect the economy.

SHANNA H. SWAN: It’s big. It’s big.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

SHANNA H. SWAN: But I mean, the rate at which plastic production is increasing is astounding, you know.

JOE ROGAN: Yes.

SHANNA H. SWAN: And no end in sight.

JOE ROGAN: Well, I don’t think you’re going to get the government to act about this stuff. I think this has to be done on an individual level where people are aware of it and take steps to protect themselves and their families from these issues. That’s my cynical view of how this is going to be played out. And I’m really hoping — I know for a fact a lot of people listened to our last conversation and made some lifestyle changes. I’m really hoping that now with this follow up visit, more and more people —

SHANNA H. SWAN: — will be aware of watching the movie.

JOE ROGAN: Yes. And watching the movie. And the movie’s called, what’s it called again?

SHANNA H. SWAN: The Plastic Detox.

JOE ROGAN: The Plastic Detox. And where is this movie available?

SHANNA H. SWAN: On your house.

JOE ROGAN: Right, but is it available on Amazon? Netflix. It’s Netflix. Okay, watch on Netflix. Netflix is great. Yeah, there’s so many great documentaries on Netflix.

“The Hidden Dangers of Plastics in our Homes. Six couples embark on a plastic detox within their homes. It changes their families forever. The Plastic Detox explains what microplastics and their chemicals are doing to our health and how we could take matters into our own hands. From hormone disruption that’s fueling a worldwide fertility crisis to growing rates of cancer and early heart attack and stroke. This powerful documentary reveals the shocking science behind plastic’s impact on human life.”

Watching the Trailer

SHANNA H. SWAN: Do you want to see a little trailer?

JOE ROGAN: Sure, let’s watch a little trailer. Put your headphones on. Well, you already know what it says.

VIDEO CLIP BEGINS:

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Plastic leeches a crap ton of chemicals.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Even the smallest levels of exposure can have profound effects.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Fertility worldwide is going down.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: There you are.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And it is tightly linked to chemicals that are commonly used in plastic. We have been trying to get pregnant for over 10 years now.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 22 months.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Two and a half years. Say what you always call yourself.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I say, you know, Julie, I’m not a human dildo.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: This is a three month intervention where we recruited six couples who have unexplained infertility. We look at measures of semen quality. The cutoff for fertile is about 40. You’re technically subfertile, infertile. So that’s kind of scary, right? Yes. The question is, if we lower people’s exposure to chemicals that are in plastic, can we change their fertility? These chemicals not only affect your fertility, they also have other health consequences.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: These chemicals can contribute to early heart attacks and stroke, autism, as well as obesogens.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Learning more about plastics, it’s opening my eyes to how much bigger it is. Many people think the government takes care of us, but very few chemicals are actually banned from personal care products. And over 1,100 are banned in the EU. To have a child, I believe it is a fundamental human right.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I think you’d be the best mom ever and I really want to see that for you. Plastic doesn’t have to come from a toxic petroleum based material. We can learn to do it other ways.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It can change and you can help with the change.

VIDEO CLIP ENDS:

JOE ROGAN: That’s another good point that he just said right there, that plastic doesn’t have to come from petroleum based materials. And most people aren’t aware of that. But you can make plastic out of plant compounds and it’s biodegradable.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yes.

JOE ROGAN: Which is like they make a hemp plastic.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Potatoes.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, potatoes. Yeah. And probably a bunch of other stuff too. Right. That you can make plastic out of that doesn’t have these effects.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Right.

JOE ROGAN: It would be really nice if we moved in that direction, wouldn’t it?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Absolutely. Absolutely. The plant based plastics have the cost of raising the plants. Of course there’s that added cost.

JOE ROGAN: Right. But does that even compare to the cost of pulling oil out of the ground and refining it, then turning it into plastic through some horrific process that turns the rivers blue or whatever it does.

SHANNA H. SWAN: God knows what it does. Color. It turns us —

JOE ROGAN: — right.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Just kidding.

Clothing and Garments to Avoid

JOE ROGAN: Is there a list of garments that people shouldn’t wear? Are you aware of that? The plastic leeching garments?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Well, the only specific ones I know are because people have told me about them. Are the sports uniforms, team uniforms, because —

JOE ROGAN: — they have a coating on them.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: And is it to make them more durable? Is that the idea?

SHANNA H. SWAN: And, and I probably this book to die for will have more information and I have it and I read. I’m just so busy, you know, with this right now and. But I’m going to read it and then sports uniforms, kids uniforms, airline personnel uniforms. I think uniforms. Firefighters. Firefighters are big, big exposure to these chemicals too.

JOE ROGAN: Right. Because they wear those waterproof —

SHANNA H. SWAN: — anything with it. Yeah, that’s right. Anything that’s waterproof, stain proof. Just like your Teflon pants, you know, barrier.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SHANNA H. SWAN: So yeah. But I don’t know any particular brands.

JOE ROGAN: I’d imagine like nylon tracksuits and all those different things. Gotta be terrible for you.

SHANNA H. SWAN: So customers could look for when they buy these things they could look for PFAS free. Just like now people know to look for BPA free, you know, they could look for PFAS free. Then they would be avoiding a lot of this.

JOE ROGAN: So go back to top please.

“Says the worst offenders are synthetic plastic heavy garments that are fuzzy coated or very tight to the skin. Especially polyester fleece, recycled polyester, fast fashion and PFAS coated water stain repellent outerwear and activewear. Polyester fleece jackets, blankets, loungewear. Extremely high microfiber shedding. One study found that polyester fleece shedding orders of magnitude more fibers per wash than other knits, which estimates around 110,000 fibers per garment per wash. This is both bad for environmental plastic pollution and for indoor dust and air.

Recycled polyester fast fashion like leggings, tees, dresses and sportswear. New testing shows recycled polyester garments shed far more and finer microfibers than virgin polyester.”

Interesting. So you think recycled? Oh, I’m recycling. I’m a good person. No, you’re killing yourself.

“Increased particle numbers and potential toxicity. These items are often cheaply made, shed heavily in washing and frequently use intense dyes and finishes. Hot pink tight synthetic sportswear and underwear.”

Yikes.

“These are worn for long periods directly against sweaty skin and mucous membranes, increasing opportunity for contact with microplastics and additives like antimony, phthalates and PFAS finishes. Cheap synthetic performance or wrinkle free fashion, stain resistant, easy care, anti odor and heavy print coating garments are more likely to use chemical finishes that can off gas or leach on top of the base synthetic fiber issues.

Lower concern choices. Not perfect but generally less problematic for leaching and microplastic shedding. Undyed or lightly dyed natural fibers like cotton, linen, wool, hemp, silk without stain resistant or wrinkle free finishes. Simple weaves, knits rather than fluffy or brushed surfaces which shed less. PFAS free rain gear and outdoor clothing.”

Brands now often — what rain gear is PFAS free? That’s interesting because I’ve always thought that has to be coated, right?

Public Response and the Fight for Awareness

SHANNA H. SWAN: A lot of work, huh?

JOE ROGAN: What has been the response to your first of all, you’re releasing your first book and then coming on podcasts and talking about this thing. Has it been surprising to you? Like, what has it been like?

SHANNA H. SWAN: It has been kind of surprising how much interest there is and how much people are taking this up. And what’s great is there are a lot of nonprofits that are in the space that are getting out these messages. So it’s not just me, many, many nonprofits. And then there’s the plastics treaty, which is worldwide. It didn’t pass, but hopefully it’ll come back and maybe next time. And then there’s the work that the EU is doing, which is miles ahead of us. For example, I think I might have said this before, but just so in Europe, if you’re going to put a new chemical into commerce, it has to pass certain tests to be safe.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Not here.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

SHANNA H. SWAN: So the testing is on you and me and everyone listening. And I mean, we haven’t really raised our hand and volunteered for that.

JOE ROGAN: Well, I mean, I don’t want this to happen, but I think maybe what has to happen is these companies have to get in trouble.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Well, some of them have.

JOE ROGAN: There are lawsuits and other lawsuits against, like, outerwear clothing, I don’t know, but. Because yoga pants are a problem, right?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yoga pants, yes.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, those tight nylon things that a lot of the gals wear to.

SHANNA H. SWAN: I don’t know where the lawsuits are. I might at some point get involved in that, but at this point, I don’t know. But I know there are lawsuits and that they can be an effective way to push back. And by the way, you said we wouldn’t get a federal law, and I think that’s not for a long time, but states can do it. California, for example, is doing lots of good stuff on that.

JOE ROGAN: What are they doing about it?

SHANNA H. SWAN: I can’t name you the laws, but I know they’re very active. Rob Bonta, he’s the attorney general of the state of California. He’s very active. And so the states that have active pushback, able to get laws passed, that kind of sets the tone for what’s possible. But I don’t see us getting federal pushback very soon.

Industry Influence and the Lack of Federal Regulation

JOE ROGAN: No, it seems like industry controls the federal government more than the health and safety concerns of the people, which is very disturbing, but not too surprising when you consider a lot of the other things that are allowed in this country that aren’t allowed in other countries. Like when you show the list of the chemicals that are illegal in the EU that are legal in America. That’s disturbing. Like, we’re supposed to be number one. We’re number one. We’re number one in chemicals.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Number one in chemicals.

JOE ROGAN: Probably.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Probably.

JOE ROGAN: The response when you were on this podcast was pretty shocking for me. So many people reached out to me. A lot of my friends that watched the episode were like, “I can’t believe this. I had no idea.” It was five years ago. But quite a few of my friends that don’t reach out with every episode reached out and said, “That is just nuts. I can’t believe this.” And especially people with children who are concerned about the development of their children, or people who are pregnant who are concerned with the intake of these chemicals while they’re pregnant, which has a radical effect on the child’s development.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Well, if your friends are listening now, I can tell them that it hasn’t changed much, it hasn’t improved much, and we have to do a lot more personally.

JOE ROGAN: And I hate to say it, but I think, like I said, I don’t think the government’s going to do anything. I think it’s got to be up to individuals to make choices. And I’m really hoping your documentary has another big impact. One of the beautiful things about Netflix is that even though things get promoted on Netflix, so many people have Netflix that will never think anything’s good. A lot of people just start sharing it and start talking about it and posting about it on social media, and then next thing, the conversation starts happening and starts raising awareness. And I really do hope you’re going to go on a bunch of other podcasts as well and talk about this.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Thank you. And there are showings, and Netflix encourages that. And I’m going actually all over the world talking at showings now. The schedule is, like, crazy.

Sounding the Alarm: One Voice Among Many

JOE ROGAN: Do you ever think, like, how crazy it is that you’re this one person that’s sounding the alarm? Because you kind of are the most public face of this problem.

SHANNA H. SWAN: That is a little crazy to me, especially given where I’ve come from.

JOE ROGAN: But what if you didn’t exist? This is the question.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Oh, there are many, many people pushing back, many, many.

JOE ROGAN: Right. But I don’t know if they’re doing it as publicly as you are, and certainly not. I mean, they haven’t been on this podcast.

SHANNA H. SWAN: I feel lucky that I’ve had many opportunities, like speaking to you and your followers and other podcasts. And then having the opportunity to have designed this intervention and have worked with Louis and others on the film team to put this forward. It’s a very big thing. And the film costs a lot of money, and we’ve had worldwide support for putting this out, so there’s a lot of support behind the pushback. And we just have to get everybody on board and just say, “No, I’m not going to use that stuff.”

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, that’s really what has to happen. The conversation has to increase. The volume has to increase. More people have to share it and talk about it, and more people have to have you on, and we just have to sound the alarm. It’s kind of crazy that five years later, nothing’s changed, because, like I said, it shook up a lot of people that I’m friends with, but I didn’t hear it from any other places. I mean, I didn’t see you on. Did you do any other podcasts after you did mine?

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah, many. You know Huberman.

JOE ROGAN: Sure. Very well. He’s great.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah, he’s great. And I can’t remember all of them. But yes, a lot of podcasts, but hopefully now more. I do have more coming up. My schedule is really kind of crazy.

JOE ROGAN: One of the things that’s great is the documentary is easily digestible. It’s on Netflix. Everything’s on Netflix. You sit down, okay, let’s watch. And then you go, “Oh, my God.”

Reaching Influencers and Changing Medical Education

SHANNA H. SWAN: And then there are all these places to go at the end of it to learn more. If people want to do that, I would love to see it viewed by influencers. Not in the typical social media sense, but people like religious leaders, leaders who could be won over. If you have any ideas. But I thought about having the Pope. I mean, it sounds really wild, but a lot of people get their information from their religious leaders, from their peers, from their doctors. By the way, none of this is taught in medical school.

JOE ROGAN: That’s crazy.

SHANNA H. SWAN: That’s crazy right there.

JOE ROGAN: Well, neither is nutrition.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Right?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

SHANNA H. SWAN: So somebody’s got to spend a lot of time getting that curriculum changed. Actually, you have to get the test changed because the teaching is to the test. So if we could get this stuff on the test, there would be more doctors learning this. But they don’t get it. They don’t get it. They learn about lead. That’s about all.

JOE ROGAN: Well, there’s not a lot of incentive to teach this stuff. That’s part of the problem, especially with these petrochemical companies. And the use of these things is going to affect so many different industries. Because if you cut that out, and they know, I mean, how much of an impact is that going to have on the economy? If everybody just stopped using all these chemicals, all the Lululemon brands — and I don’t want to single them out — but all these different companies, if they all just went under tomorrow, that’d be a giant problem. If everybody just stopped using these things.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Maybe for a little while, but then they’d be healthier.

JOE ROGAN: Well, the people would be healthier, but the companies would go.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Oh, the companies will not be healthier.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. No.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Unless they make the switch.

JOE ROGAN: But what could they do to make the switch? Like if you’re a company, you were saying, like plant based plastics.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Like plant based plastics.

Plant-Based and Non-Toxic Workout Clothing

JOE ROGAN: Do they make plant based plastic clothing? Does anybody do that? Like plant based plastic leggings? Let’s find that out. Does anybody make plant based plastic used in clothing? What are the primary chemicals that come out? And is it PFAS? PFAS-free leggings. Because I would imagine especially if you’re not wearing underwear and you’re wearing those kind of yoga tights, that would just get in there. Right. Well, speaking of that, they’re looking for them to be “squat proof.” So they’re not see through. Squat proof. Yeah. If a girl’s wearing leggings, they’re going to be doing a lot of squats at the gym probably or something. Squat proof. So they don’t want people to be watching them. But there are some. See through. Yeah, yeah, they’re see through. But that’s a weird way to say squat proof. Sounds to me like you can’t do squats.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Also probably ripping, I would imagine too.

JOE ROGAN: I think it’s just a bad phrase. When you do a squat or downward facing dog, the fabric stretches out. You can see some undies through the fabric. Tested nine different kinds of them. So there are a few different brands.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Now this isn’t even really bioplastic. Go back there.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, bioplastic. Three primary categories of non toxic workout clothes. All natural or almost all natural, for example, 100% organic cotton or 90% cotton, 10% Spandex. Most semi synthetic fabric, for instance, Tencel fabric. Plant based plastic, which is a plastic sourced from something like castor bean oil instead of fossil fuels. In general, I’m not a huge fan of plant based bioplastics. They are advertised as plastic free alternatives but they’re still plastic and some research shows that they’re not truly non toxic. I know it’s disappointing.

It says here’s the honest to God truth: when it comes to performance, stretchiness, compression, durability, the plant based plastics do tend to perform the best, followed by the semi synthetics. A lot of product categories where non toxic options perform just as well as a synthetic option, like shampoo, to give you one example. It’s not really as straightforward with leggings. At the end of the day you’re going to have to decide for yourself what kind of material you prefer. It will largely depend on things like what type of workouts you do, how you like your leggings to feel, where you work out, and more.

Okay, my reviews on these nine almost plastic free non toxic leggings. So one is a company called Mate. Overall review: they’re the best middle ground leggings. They’re not super high performance, but they’re made from healthier materials and are very comfortable. They’re great for lower impact workouts, just for general everyday wearing. Squat test passed but had to size up.

What’s the best one? So Mate is one of them. What are the other ones? Pangaia. Overall review: “Find myself reaching for these leggings more often than any of the others when it comes to hardcore workouts. The compressive nature of them makes me feel very held in when I’m jumping around. They have great stretch. Squat test passed. Material blend: 92% Polyamide bio-based Evo, bio-based content 8%, part bio-based Creora Elastane, 30% bio-based content.” Makes them different. Closest to conventional synthetics in terms of fit, feel, stretch and compression.

Okay, well, this website is thefittery.com/plastic-free-non-toxic-workout-leggings. Go check it out for yourself. So there are some options that are out there. Hopefully we’ll give those companies a boost and more people will wear them. Anything else before we get going? Think we covered it all?

SHANNA H. SWAN: I think so.

Closing Thoughts and Farewell

JOE ROGAN: I think we sounded the alarm.

SHANNA H. SWAN: I think we tried. Again, anyway, yeah, we did something. Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Like I said, I think it’s just a volume thing. More and more of these conversations have to take place so that in the general zeitgeist, more people are aware of it, and it’s just increased awareness and just makes it where more people are making better choices.

SHANNA H. SWAN: And your platform is so huge that I’m really encouraged to have the opportunity to talk about this with you and happy to come back.

JOE ROGAN: Well, I’d be happy to have you back. I loved you the first time. You’re great the second time as well. And for everybody, one more time. The Plastic Detox. That’s the name of the documentary. It’s available right now on Netflix. Go check it out and fix your life, kids. All right. Thank you. I really appreciate it. It was really fun. Thank you.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah, it was great.

JOE ROGAN: And I’m really so happy that you’re out there, because like I said, if you weren’t doing this very important work, I wouldn’t know about it. And I think a lot of other people wouldn’t either. So thank you.

SHANNA H. SWAN: So pee in the cup.

JOE ROGAN: I will pee in the cup. I promise you. I promise you. I’ll pee in the cup, but I’ll send it.

SHANNA H. SWAN: If you want to do the next steps, let me know.

JOE ROGAN: I will do the next steps as well.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Okay, so when you’re ready to have another —

JOE ROGAN: Talk to that microphone so people know what you’re saying.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah. So when you’re ready to have another test kit, or you can go to Million Marker and just order one.

JOE ROGAN: Okay.

SHANNA H. SWAN: Yeah. It’s 100 bucks.

JOE ROGAN: All right, we’ll do it, but we’ll —

SHANNA H. SWAN: — send it for nothing. If you want, just let me know.

JOE ROGAN: I’ll give you the 100 bucks. Okay, thank you very much. All right, bye, everybody.

Related Posts

• The Best Vitality & Health Protocols w/ Dr. Rhonda Patrick (Transcript)
• LIVING Room: w/ Deborah Kado on Posture, Bone Density & Muscle (Transcript)
• Mel Robbins Podcast: w/ Dr. Nadine Burke Harris on Nervous System Reset (Transcript)
• Transcript: 160 Years of Aging Research w/ Dr. David Sinclair @ Impact Theory
• Diary Of A CEO: w/ Stanford Neuroscientist Dr. David Eagleman on Brain Plasticity (Transcript)