Mel Robbins Podcast: w/ Terry Real on Transforming Modern Relationships (Transcript)

Even if it’s a half-assed job.

TERRY REAL: Yeah, that’s the best way of getting them to do more. Criticizing them for what they’re doing wrong is about the worst way of trying to get them motivated to give you more. But we don’t know these basics in this culture.

You know, I’m a family therapist for 40 years. The father of family therapy was Gregory Bateson, the husband of Margaret Mead. And Bateson’s whole work, the birth of family therapy is what he called correcting humankind’s philosophical mistake, which is that we stand apart from nature and we can control it. Both wrong.

And by the way, apropos of the “let them” theory, control can be one up that tends to be more traditionally male. “Sit down, shut up and do what I tell you.” Control can also be up regulating from the one down, that’s codependent, that’s enabling, that’s trying to get your partner to do something. That’s traditionally more feminine under patriarchy.

Moving Beyond Traditional Gender Roles

Intimacy, here’s one of the first things I want to say: to really move into the intimacy we want means nothing less than moving beyond traditional gender roles for all of us. Women have to move out of resentful accommodation, control, enabling. That’s what your book is all about.

And the sort of my generation’s early feminists shifted from the one down traditionally feminine role to the one up traditionally masculine. I call that individual empowerment. “I was weak, now I’m strong. Go screw yourself.”

No. “I was weak, now I’m strong. Let’s work together. We’re a team. I love you.” I call that relational empowerment. And in our culture, man, that is new news.

In therapy, 12-step sponsors, women’s groups, men’s groups, all individual empowerment. “I wouldn’t put up with that if I was you.” Well, that’s easy to say. How about roll up your sleeves? You love each other. How are you going to make this work together?

MEL ROBBINS: So there were so many things you just said that I want to dig into. I love this idea of relationship technology and skills that we can build. I also love that you’re starting from a place of this larger container that we’re all in, which is culture.

I also appreciate the fact that the traditional gender roles, that a man is supposed to act this way, a woman’s supposed to act that way, that those are leading to a lot of dissatisfaction in relationships on both sides.

And there was something that you said that I want to make sure we unpack. And that was the term “resentful accommodation.” What does that mean?

TERRY REAL: Ask any woman on the street.

MEL ROBBINS: Well, I know what it means, but I…

TERRY REAL: Well, what did it mean in your life?

Understanding Resentful Accommodation

MEL ROBBINS: So resentful accommodation, the biggest example that I can think of, is that when we were in a massive financial crisis, Chris cratered. And his confidence in himself, his ability to believe in himself, the sense that he had failed as a husband, as a father, to provide, that he had lost people money.

As he was collapsing, I became more and more resentful because I felt like it was my job to then step up and save us and do what I thought should have been his job. Again, traditional gender roles, that he’s supposed to be the one that’s the breadwinner. I’m supposed to make some money. That’s our fun money. And when that didn’t work…

TERRY REAL: You both cratered.

MEL ROBBINS: We both cratered.

TERRY REAL: The whole marriage cratered.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes. And so the resentfulness kind of comes from that thing of, I thought it was going to be this way, and I think you owe me something. And now I’m pissed. So now I’m going to go do this thing and go make the money and get three jobs and do what I need to do.

And now I’m mad because when I come home, the laundry’s still there and all this stuff is still there. That’s probably a lot of the tone that you hear when you’re sitting with couples.

And the interesting thing is that if I look at your three things: tell the truth about what you need, listen and teach somebody what you want, and then reward them, it seems so simple. But when you’re caught in that cycle of the emotion, of all of it, and you start to pull away from each other and that distance comes in. I think this is the heart of what you help people do.

The Crisis as Opportunity

TERRY REAL: Well, you know, I mean, I don’t mean to be heartless, but I would look at the two of you and I go, what a great opportunity. Which is not, I’m not an empathic therapist. You want empathy? “Oh, I’m sorry.” No.

Look at how you both grew. And you cracked patriarchy, cracked. One of the first things I have to teach people, and I’d love people to listen to this, is healthy self-esteem, which is rare in our culture.

Healthy self-esteem comes from the inside out. You have worth, you have dignity because you’re here on this planet. You’re a human being no better or worse than anybody else.

Unhealthy self-esteem comes from the outside in. For many men is performance based. “I have worth because of what I can do. I have worth because of how much I earn.” And for many women, it’s other based. “I have worth because you think I do.”

And that cracks for both of you. You were going to be taken care of by Prince Charming, but Prince Charming was drinking himself down the toilet and depressed as hell because his performance based esteem had cracked.

So you know what? It doesn’t mean there was something wrong with you. It means there was something wrong with what you were both trying to live up to and it didn’t work.

MEL ROBBINS: Yeah.

TERRY REAL: The problem is, okay, so what was going on? This is one of the great things nobody gets. All relationships are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony and repair. That’s what you and Chris live through, big time.

The Dance of Harmony, Disharmony and Repair

MEL ROBBINS: All relationships are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony and repair.

TERRY REAL: That’s correct.

MEL ROBBINS: And here’s what I’m going to guess, because as you’re listening right now to Terry, as you’re watching this on YouTube, first of all, I want you wherever you are, whether you’re single, whether you’re heartbroken, whether you’re in a marriage that feels like roommates, whether you’re recognizing the resentment that is coming up in your relationship.

Terry is asking us all to look at where you’re at as one giant opportunity. And when you say all relationships are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony and repair, I’m willing to guess based on my own experience, Terry, being married 29 years, that most couples are in harmony and disharmony, harmony and disharmony. But no repair.

TERRY REAL: No repair. Because that’s where the skills come in. And we don’t know them. But also two things. First of all, our culture doesn’t even acknowledge the disharmony to begin with. A good relationship is all harmony. That’s what you thought when you were young.

MEL ROBBINS: That’s true.

TERRY REAL: And you were bitterly disappointed.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes. And aimed it right at him.

TERRY REAL: Well, of course he failed you, but you picked him. I like to say we all marry our unfinished business.

We All Marry Our Unfinished Business

MEL ROBBINS: Whoa, hold on. We all marry our unfinished business.

TERRY REAL: You got it. You know what? Young Mel could have had a guy that would have done everything she wanted him to do. I guarantee you there were guys you dated who you would not have gone through this crisis with. They did not blip on your screen. I call this the mysticism of marriage.

MEL ROBBINS: The mysticism of marriage?

TERRY REAL: Yes. We have the opportunity to heal our deepest wounds. Falling in love means, “Oh, yeah, this person’s going to give it to me. I’m going to be healed. They’re going to give me everything I didn’t get.” Good luck.

A real relationship comes, I like to say, when you realize your partner is, here’s my quote, “exquisitely designed to stick the burning spear right into your eyeball.” That’s the crisis. That’s not a bad relationship. That’s a real relationship.

The question is, now what? Are you just going to repeat the same old, same old? That’s hell. Or are you going to wake up and do something different? The crisis can wake you up if you allow it, but you have to do it.

And so there’s a lot that goes into why we don’t wake up, how to wake up. And if we do stay awake, what the hell do we do then?

Understanding Unfinished Business in Relationships

MEL ROBBINS: What does unfinished business mean? What does—because it’s true. The person that you’re in a relationship with has an uncanny way to get under your skin, piss you off, frustrate the hell out of you. You love them, but you want to kill them at times, right?

TERRY REAL: Yeah.

MEL ROBBINS: Definitely want to change them.

TERRY REAL: Yeah.

MEL ROBBINS: But what does unfinished business mean, exactly, for us?

TERRY REAL: It means that you are now exactly in the childhood wound that that son of a gun that you picked was supposed to never put you in. You have been fundamentally betrayed. You are back. You’re four. You’re with your crazy family.

And your partner is just as chaotic, it turns out, as your dad was, your partner is just as betraying as your mom was. Whatever the wound is, all of a sudden it’s in your face, and that’s not what you signed up for. And you hate that son of a guy.

You are talking to the guy. My favorite quote is “normal marital hatred.”

MEL ROBBINS: Normal marital hatred.

TERRY REAL: Normal marital hatred. My God, I got to tell you, I’ve been around the world talking about normal marital hatred for four. Not once has anyone come backstage and said, “What do you mean by that?”

MEL ROBBINS: You just don’t say it next to the spouse you’re sitting next to, right?

TERRY REAL: But we do.

MEL ROBBINS: But you feel it.

TERRY REAL: We do. There is a part of me—and I used to say, a part of me—there’s a part of me that hates you right now. Yes. Okay. Here’s why. But more important, here’s what we can do to get the hell out of this thing together. So let’s—hold on.

MEL ROBBINS: So if we just take these—I’m just going to keep building here. So wherever it is that you are—

TERRY REAL: Yeah.

MEL ROBBINS: In that never ending dance in the relationship.

TERRY REAL: Yeah.

MEL ROBBINS: That the partner that you’re with or the relationship that just ended offers you the opportunity to deal with unfinished business.

TERRY REAL: Right.

MEL ROBBINS: And the opportunity and the unfinished business is that in every single relationship that you’re in, your childhood crap comes up. And their childhood crap comes up.

TERRY REAL: Comes up.

The Adaptive Child vs. The Wise Adult

MEL ROBBINS: And so is it safe to say that when you look at the person that you’re in a relationship with as an adult, that you really are looking at—not the adult version, but really I should be thinking about Chris is—here’s the little eight year old version of Chris. And now he’s my husband.

TERRY REAL: It depends on who’s there. Who’s there. As a therapist, my most critical question is not what are the stressors? It’s not even what’s the pattern? The most critical question: which part of you am I speaking to?

We’re talking right now. My wise adult brain is talking to your wise adult brain.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes.

TERRY REAL: Prefrontal cortex doesn’t develop until 26 years old. When you get trauma triggered, when Chris betrays you, when Belinda betrays me in exactly the way I hired him to never do—God d* it—I get flooded. I get trauma flooded.

And then what comes up is what we call the wounded child part of you. Very just—oh, you know, cry, cry, cry, rage, rage, rage. Between this very immature part of the brain and the subcortical—it’s a different part of your brain.

And this very mature part of the brain is what I call the adaptive child part of you. And that’s what I work with. The adaptive child part of you is the you that you learned to be growing up in that crazy family. You know, that knee jerk survival.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes.

TERRY REAL: Fight, flight or fawn. Which as an adult means: fix, fight—screw me, screw you—flight, I’m shutting this down. And fix—oh my God, oh my God, you’re upset. Let me—it’s not working on things from mature place. It’s an anxious over functioning.

MEL ROBBINS: Yeah.

TERRY REAL: So fight, flight or fix. It’s a knee jerk. It’s automatic. We think as an adult, it does okay out in the world often. But it makes a mess of your relationships.

So what makes life difficult is you’re in harmony. You’re in a wise adult. You get into disharmony, that prefrontal cortex out the window. And now it’s automatic knee jerk survival. And you do what you did as a kid and it doesn’t work.

And the more you do it, the more it doesn’t work, the more frustrated you get. Not with you, but with your partner. You have to take a breath. Take a breath.

The first skill we teach people now is what I call relational mindfulness. When you’re flooded, when you’re triggered, take a break, walk around the block, take 10 breaths. Because what happens is when you move from harmony into disharmony, you get wounded. And then most of us have about 10 seconds worth of tolerance for that.

We don’t stay in that wound and we move into our automatic habitual response and it doesn’t work. Remember I said you’re married to unfeeling? That’s healing. The healing comes when you can pull yourself out of that automatic subcortical part of the brain and wake up.

I call it relational mindfulness. Okay. I also call it remembering love. Okay. He’s not the enemy. He’s my guy. I don’t hate him. I love him. We’re struggling. What the hell do we do? I don’t know. But let’s talk about it.

When you’re there, then you can use the skills. But the first skill is getting into the part of you—I like to say other therapies teach you skills. What I’ve created, I call it relational life therapy—deals with the part of you that won’t use them.

Why Therapy Insights Don’t Always Work in Real Time

MEL ROBBINS: Oh my God. Well, I once heard somebody say that one of the reasons why oftentimes therapy can help you really be aware of things and help you understand what’s happening—but when you’re talking to a therapist or a doctor or even a friend or you and I have a conversation right now, you are using your prefrontal cortex.

TERRY REAL: That’s right.

MEL ROBBINS: I’m present. I’m not stressed out right now. I’m not in fight or flight. You’re not pissing me off. So I’m in the wise, adult part of my brain.

TERRY REAL: Yeah.

MEL ROBBINS: And so you and I may talk. Okay. Next time I come home from traveling for 10 days and I walk in the house and there are dead flowers in dirty water sitting in the middle of the island in the kitchen.

TERRY REAL: There you go again.

MEL ROBBINS: Floods me.

TERRY REAL: That’s right.

MEL ROBBINS: And I think, how many times did I—and does nobody know that I’m coming back? Does nobody know that I care? I go right into that. Which I’m sure if Chris is in the next room and he hears the volcano erupting, that is the wounded Mel Robbins, he probably shuts down.

TERRY REAL: It’s not the wounded Mel Robbins. Because you don’t go to Chris and go, “You know, I feel—my feelings are hurt that I come home and those flowers are dead. I don’t feel like—I don’t feel cared about.” No.

MEL ROBBINS: Why would I do that when I can take a photo and send a passive aggressive text message? Why would I do that, Terry, when I can dump the flowers out in the sink loudly, and then throw the things in the trash as if I’m sending anger signal waves?

TERRY REAL: Yeah.

MEL ROBBINS: Like this was an old dynamic between us.

TERRY REAL: Well, and a lot of other people. My marriage too.

MEL ROBBINS: So pull apart that.

From Wound to Adaptation: The Cycle of Reactivity

TERRY REAL: Well, when you’re in the hurt, you know, I feel abandoned. I feel uncared about. And we could go into your childhood, but I’m sure that that has resonance. But like all of us, you have about two seconds worth of tolerance for that helplessness and vulnerability.

And you go—you go from the one down to the one up. You go from shame, helplessness, not cared about, to anger, indignation. What kind of person does that? And what’s devilish about that is you feel better.

MEL ROBBINS: It works because they’re thinking, why does it work?

TERRY REAL: Because grandiosity feels good, shame feels bad, the wound feels bad, the adaptation feels good. It works. We’re not so—look, we move into these defensive moves, self medication, rage, affairs. They make a mess of our lives. But we’re not so stupid that we move into stuff that feels bad. It feels good.

Grandiosity feels good. That’s one of my great contributions of my work. Grandiosity feels good. It just makes a hash of things. So you have to take a breath. You’re a fighter. I’m a fighter. Belinda’s a fighter.

MEL ROBBINS: Chris is a shutter downer.

TERRY REAL: Okay, well, there you go.

MEL ROBBINS: He goes right into don’t talk. Bye, goodbye.

TERRY REAL: Yeah, the more you rage, the more I shut down.

MEL ROBBINS: And then that makes you so frustrated.

TERRY REAL: Well, then you rage more.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes. And then they shut down more and then you—or same thing if you’re a fixer. Now I’m trying to fix this and now you’re getting more angry at me. Or now I’m just trying to solve this and now you won’t even talk to me. And so I can see how you get stuck in a loop with something.

TERRY REAL: Yeah, everybody comes to me in a loop. The more, the more.

MEL ROBBINS: Wait, hold on. Everybody that comes to you, Terry, is in a loop. And it’s this loop of your adaptation of what you did as a kid.

TERRY REAL: That’s right. Meet his adaptation.

MEL ROBBINS: His adaptation as a kid. I want to read to you from your New York Times bestseller, “Us.” This is page nine and it’s the chapter that is entitled “Which Version of You Shows Up to Your Relationship.”

“There’s no redeeming value in harshness.” I’m the harsh one. I’ll own it. I have a tone. I’m a fighter. Yes.

“Let’s take a look at just one of the immature qualities that are prevalent in our adaptive child. Yes, harshness. I tell my clients that if they walk away from their sessions with me with just this one concept, they will have spent their therapy money well. Here it is. There is no redeeming value whatsoever in harshness. Harshness does nothing that loving firmness doesn’t do better.”

The Revolutionary Power of Loving Firmness

TERRY REAL: That’s revolution. That’s life changing. And by the way, harshness between you being harsh to somebody, no value. Allowing them to be harsh to you, no value. And watch this. You being harsh to you, no value.

How many of us think, well, I have to be firm with myself in order to whip myself? And think about the way we deal with kids on a good day. You don’t have to be harsh to be firm. Be firm.

You know, I’m 75. I like to tell my clients at 75, I have a deal with the universe. If it’s not kind, I’m not interested. And that’s whether it’s me talking to you or me listening to you or me talking to me.

You know, that adaptive child part of me is very harsh. I grew up with a violent father and I was very violent between my ears for decades. Nowadays that harsh critic—I know is just my little teenage fighter. Kept me alive.

Okay, little 17 year old s* kicker. Don’t let nobody take advantage. Okay, got it, palace. You may have something to say to me and I’ll listen, but you got to say it like you’re on my side.

Take that in. Say it like you’re on my side. Then I’ll listen.

The First Step: Take a Break

MEL ROBBINS: When you start to have this awakening that, oh, I do that, I’m doing this or they do that or do the other thing. What’s the next step?

TERRY REAL: Take a break.

MEL ROBBINS: Take a break.

TERRY REAL: Stop it. Take a break. Duck in. You know, I deal with all these tough a guys. I mean, NFL players, they’re ducking into the bathroom, putting their little five year old boys on their laps and talking to them five, six times, literally five, six times a day.

Take a break. Relational mindfulness. Come out of that reactivity. Remember, the person is not 14 feet tall with five arms. They’re your friend, they’re your lover, they’re an idiot, just like you are. No better or worse.

Calm down, okay? Now go back in the fray and use a skill, but don’t try it until you’re centered. First step is getting centered.

MEL ROBBINS: And you know, how do you bring up difficult topics with love?

TERRY REAL: Who does that?

How to Address Difficult Topics in Your Relationship

MEL ROBBINS: And how do I do that? Like, let’s say that somebody’s let their health go or that they’re not motivated or they are not getting help for their depression or they seem to have started isolating and they’re not seeing their friends anymore. How do you bring that up?

And it’s a difficult topic and it’s something that has kind of led to standoffs or arguments and you just don’t know how to even bring it up without the other person feeling attacked or shutting down.

TERRY REAL: Well, you do your best and you know, you could be taking a page from Mother Teresa and they still feel attacked because they’re in their adaptive child and they feel attacked if you say goddamn anything to them. And that’s not your responsibility, it’s theirs. But you do your best.

So tenderness works better than harshness. Honey, sit down. Let me take your hand. These are the things I’m noticing. I’m worried about you. You know, this, this and this. Give them the data. This, this and this I make up, not “you are.” I make up that you’re depressed these days. And I think it would be good for all of us if you did something about it.

Look, I wrote the book on male depression back in the 90s. It was the first book ever written. And what I said, NIH did a public service campaign about male depression. I said, if you want to help depressed men, aim your data at the women. This is not a moment. And this is our individualistic culture. Oh, he needs to call the doctor. Yeah, well, good luck with that.

How about I’ll try calling the doctor. I’ll get him in my car and we’ll drive together. And if that doesn’t work, how about this? We’re going to go to a couples therapist because I’m concerned about your drinking or your anger or whatever it is I’m concerned about. We’ve tried to talk about it. I haven’t found a way to talk to you about it. We need help. So even if you think it’s their problem, go to a couple therapists and put it in front of them.

MEL ROBBINS: Well, as I’m really listening to you, there are no problems that are their problems. Because every problem is our problem.

TERRY REAL: Your relationship is your biosphere. We’re not above it, we’re not below it. We’re in it, baby. And it’s in our interest to keep that biosphere healthy.

Shifting from “Me vs. You” to “Us vs. the Problem”

MEL ROBBINS: How do you shift from me versus you to us versus the problem? Especially in situations where the problem is you’re drinking or the problem is you’re not motivated. Or the problem is you’ve let yourself go. Or at least that’s what you think you think the problem is with them.

TERRY REAL: Well, first, have some humility. Here’s what I think. Or even more to the point, this is what I’m not happy about. This is what’s not comfortable for me.

Look, I’m working. You’re not. I come home, you’re on the couch drinking a beer. The place is a mess. I got to tell you, Bill, I don’t mind being the woman going out and being the breadwinner, but could you at least be a good wife when I get home? I mean, this sucks. Keep it personal.

MEL ROBBINS: It sounds a little judgmental.

TERRY REAL: Well, but keep it personal.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay?

TERRY REAL: Keep it humble. Keep it real. This is hard for me. You may not be uncomfortable with it, but I’m uncomfortable with it. We live together. Can we talk about what needs to happen here?

How to Fight Constructively

MEL ROBBINS: Is there a way to fight constructively?

TERRY REAL: True.

MEL ROBBINS: How do you do it?

TERRY REAL: This is what happened. This is what I told myself. This is how I felt. And this is what I want. But listen to this. That third step, this is what I felt.

MEL ROBBINS: Yeah.

TERRY REAL: Here’s a tip.

MEL ROBBINS: Tell me.

TERRY REAL: Take the feeling that comes to you first and put it last.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

TERRY REAL: Anger.

MEL ROBBINS: So, like, if anger is the thing that comes up for me first.

TERRY REAL: Yeah. Last. If you’re, if you lead with big, strong, check into your vulnerability. What’s underneath that? Lead with that.

Don’t, I come home to dead flowers. You son of a bitch. How can, what kind of person. No. I come home to dead flowers. I don’t feel cared about. It’s kind of lonely. I felt lonely. I felt helpless, I felt uncared about and I felt angry. Last, not first. And Chris will have a lot easier time hearing you.

And conversely, if you’re like codependent.

Understanding Codependency

MEL ROBBINS: And how do you know if you’re codependent? Because I think that that’s one of those words that I feel like it’s out there and I don’t even know that I really understand what codependent?

TERRY REAL: Well, you call it over functioning.

MEL ROBBINS: Over functioning?

TERRY REAL: Yeah, because that anxious is the fixer. Anxious.

MEL ROBBINS: So codependent means that you only feel okay when everybody around you is okay.

TERRY REAL: That’s right. Oh, and you’re afraid to rock the boat. Oh, oh, yeah. That’s what that means.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

TERRY REAL: And so look, your relationship is your biosphere. If you’re a one up fighter like you and me, Belinda, come. Your biosphere needs you to come down off your high horse. My feelings were hurt. Oh, your biosphere needs you to be happy with that?

If you’re a one down fixer, don’t set daddy off. Your biosphere needs you to stand up and find some spine.

MEL ROBBINS: How do you do that? Like, what is your advice to the person that’s listening that goes, well, that is me. I need to make sure that everybody’s okay. I’m always walking on eggshells. Everybody else comes first. But then of course, I’m exhausted and resentful because nobody’s taking care of me. How do I stand up? How do I start to change that adaptive, fixing little kid in me?

TERRY REAL: Yeah, well, turn to that kid because you learned to run around and fix everything as a little girl or a little boy. What would have happened if you hadn’t done that in that family you grew up with? The odds are all hell would have broken loose.

We always respect the intelligence of the adaptive child. You did what you had to do. Good for you. It’s time to retire. You’re not that little girl. Chris is not the family you grew up with. You can do something. Can I tell you a story?

MEL ROBBINS: Yeah, please.

The Story of the Liar: A Classic Adaptive Child Example

TERRY REAL: This is my classic adaptive child story. It’s absolutely true story.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

TERRY REAL: Couple comes to me on the brink of divorce. He’s a liar. Lies about everything she says to him. If you ask him what color shoes he has on, he’ll lie and say yes, sneakers. I mean, he’ll lie and therapist will. He’s the kind of, I walk in the office and I go, hi, Bill, the sky’s blue. He goes, well, it’s not. He’s not going to tell me it’s blue. He won’t give it to me.

So I get right away what his deal is. The adaptive child. He’s an evader. Nobody’s going to get him. But then I think, okay, the adaptive child is adapting to someone. There’s someone on the other end of that seesaw. So who tried to control you growing up? His father. True story. Military man. How he sat, how he ate his friend.

What did you do with his controlling father? He looks at me and he smiles. That’s resistance, that smile. He says, I lied. Dad said, don’t play with Henry. I played with Henry. I told him I played with John. Smart boy. Good for you. Always respect the strategy that you learned as a kid. But retire them. You’re in the backseat. Wise adult is here today. I can take care of this better than you can.

Literally, when Belinda and I are having a fight, honest to God. And she’s coming at me with anger because that’s what we do. It could be me. I have little Terry. I’ve worked with an 8 year old. I put him behind me. Between her anger and you. Little Terry is me. My big adult body. We have a deal. You’re protected back there. Her rage stops with me. Doesn’t hit you. Here’s your part of the deal. I deal with my wife, not you. You’ll make a mess of it.

So, okay, so here’s my liar. So, smart boy, by the way, you’re not five anymore. And your wife isn’t your dad. See ya. True story. Two weeks later, they come back. Hand in hand. We’re cured. And they were. Mel. I said, okay, there’s a story here. Tell me.

Over the weekend, she sends him to the grocery store to get 12 things. True to form, he comes back with 11. She says, where’s the pumpernickel? And he’s going to lie. Of course he’s going to lie. He doesn’t want to get chewed out by his father.

And he said every muscle and nerve in my body was screaming to say they were out of the pumpernickel. Which was not true. This moment. I took a breath, I thought of you, Terry. I was lending him my prefrontal cortex. We can do that for each other. I thought of you. I looked my wife in the eye and I said, I forgot the goddamn pumpernickel.

It’s absolutely true, Mel. She burst into tears and she said, I’ve been waiting for this moment for 25 years. That’s recovery. Come out of that adaptive child into the prefrontal cortex. Tell the truth. Use a skill. Wow.

The Pattern of Seeking Rescue in Relationships

MEL ROBBINS: I can see how this relates to that. Something you said in the very beginning where when you fall in love with somebody, you think you’re going to be rescued from the behavior in yourself that you feel stuck with. The rage or the, you know, shutting down or the lying or the, you know, walking on eggshells.

TERRY REAL: Yeah. Whatever you learned to do as a kid.

MEL ROBBINS: Whatever you learned to do as a kid.

TERRY REAL: Whatever you needed to do as a kid.

MEL ROBBINS: Yeah. And so I can see how in the absolute bliss of a new relationship and you’re just falling, falling, falling, you believe that it’s always going to be like this. And sure enough, what comes up is the opportunity to do the work, to become the wise adult and not have the adaptive child.

And all of the default behaviors that happen when you get flooded emotionally or when you get triggered. And when you really think about the person as it’s their adaptive child in the room with your adaptive child, when you guys are emotionally flooded.

TERRY REAL: You got it.

MEL ROBBINS: And any single thing, whether it’s I forgot the pumpernickel bread or it’s the and now she’s going to be a bitch. So I’m going to lie. Which is what I did as a kid, or it’s the tiptoe walking or the raging or the venting or the being right or whatever.

Like every single one of those things, whether it’s triggered by Amazon boxes or it’s triggered by pumpernickel, or it’s triggered by their drinking, or it’s triggered by absolutely anything.

TERRY REAL: Anything.

MEL ROBBINS: It’s the same cycle, it’s the same wound, it’s the same emotions. And you’re going to be trapped there forever.

Taking Responsibility for Your Own Healing

TERRY REAL: And here’s where your work is, genius. What we do when we’re back in the old wound is we redouble our efforts to get that son of a gun to give us what they were supposed to give us. That’s why we married them. Or we react. And out of that adaptation, when they don’t give it to us, we fight, we flight, we do whatever we do.

Here’s the new news. Take a breath. They ain’t going to give it to you. Watch this. How about if you give it to you? You were abandoned as a kid. You come home dead, flowers. Abandonment comes up. Not 50 year old Mel or 4 year old Mel. You turn to that 4 year old girl. Chris may be abandoning you right now, but I’m not. I’m here. I got you, kid.

I like to say maturity comes when we deal with our inner children and don’t foist them off when we’re partners to deal with.

MEL ROBBINS: Oh, I love that. Maturity comes when we deal with that inner child, that adaptive self that needed to do whatever it does, whether it’s the anger, whether it’s the righteousness, whether it’s shutting down, whether it’s whatever it is when we deal with that person.

TERRY REAL: Love you, kid. When the inner child. Which means you just when you’re reactive.

Understanding Emotional Flooding

MEL ROBBINS: Yeah. So talk about emotional flooding and emotional over functioning. What is that the same thing as the adaptive child?

TERRY REAL: Well, yeah. First you get flooded. That’s the wounded child.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

TERRY REAL: And then you get yourself out of that flooding by moving into your adaptive child.

MEL ROBBINS: Got it. So you. So like, let’s just take it as fact.

TERRY REAL: Well, you walk in and the flowers are dead.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes.

TERRY REAL: There’s a little Mel that was not taken care of and that’s what gets triggered.

MEL ROBBINS: Yeah.

The Roots of Emotional Flooding and Relationship Patterns

TERRY REAL: And you’re not your adult self feeling let down in a moderate way. You’re that four or five year old little girl who’s never dealt with the way she should have been. And you’re flooded. But you don’t like that feeling of helplessness. So you move from helplessness to attack, from one down to one up. These are the roots of violence for all of us.

And the one up feels better. It gets you out of that helplessness, but it makes a mess of your marriage. So you have to think your way down from the one up.

MEL ROBBINS: Well, recognizing that you’re just emotionally flooded is important. Recognizing that you’re now in react, react, react mode. Which is why taking that breath and consciously pulling yourself back into the wise adult.

TERRY REAL: Yes. Which may mean, did you take a 20 minute walk around the block? You have a contract with your partner. Look, hey, I’m flooded. See you in 20 minutes. And man, your partner says it. Let them go. Don’t corner an animal. Okay, fine.

MEL ROBBINS: Don’t corner an animal.

TERRY REAL: No, you don’t want to do that.

MEL ROBBINS: That’s incredible. Why does emotional over functioning and shutting down, why do these patterns tend to attract people into a partnership?

TERRY REAL: Because it’s your unfinished business. So may I?

MEL ROBBINS: Yes, please.

TERRY REAL: All right, here we go. Mel. Ready?

MEL ROBBINS: Yeah.

TERRY REAL: All right. So fighter male, your adaptive child is what I would call one up and boundaryless. You’re one up. You’re grandiose. You’re attacking. You’re righteous.

MEL ROBBINS: He’s a dead yes.

TERRY REAL: But underneath that are the feelings of abandonment, aloneness, which is your childhood wound.

MEL ROBBINS: Yeah.

Understanding the Wound Versus the Scar

TERRY REAL: My friend and colleague Gabor Maté says in relationships you don’t see the wound. You see the scar. You don’t see the wounded child. You see the adaptive child.

So you come home, dead flowers. Little girl Mel not cared about the way she should have been. And if you were to sit with her, she’d be crying, she’d be lonely. But you don’t because that’s painful. So you go one up into grandiosity, self righteousness, attack. Now you’re powerful, but you’re making a mess of things.

MEL ROBBINS: Feel bad about it because you don’t want to make a mess of things you don’t want. Well, at least I do.

TERRY REAL: You feel bad about it five minutes later, yes, you have a hangover. But in the moment, he deserves it. You’re right. Let’s go. And that’s what this is all about.

Then you take a break. Hold it. I’m about to lose my shit. See ya. Or hold it. I’m going to shut down. Let me get myself adjusted and I’m going to come back and talk to you. Whatever the condition is, you got to sit with that little part of you. It’s okay, he loves you. He’s an idiot about the dead flowers, but he does love you. Come back. Don’t ream him a new one. That’s not going to work.

Come back and talk to him about what’s going on. But you have to be in your right mind and that’s the opportunity. The healing doesn’t come when you get the son of a gun to give it to you. That’s the dream. The healing comes when they don’t and you deal with it not the way you learned as a kid, but in a new way that heals.

The Source of Power and Healing

MEL ROBBINS: Okay? That is the most important thing in my opinion that you have said because you are now pointing at the source of power and healing. And one of the mistakes is that we are trying to get that from our partner and through our partner changing.

TERRY REAL: Right?

MEL ROBBINS: And what you just said is that the healing comes not from them changing. The healing that you need comes from you stopping yourself in that moment, taking a breath, not allowing all of the patterns of the past and the adaptive child to come in and fix or…

TERRY REAL: Freeze or rage and make a mess.

MEL ROBBINS: And make a mess, but to just see it happening and then bring the wise adult to the room and respond in a new way. That is the healing.

TERRY REAL: That’s the healing. That’s the opportunity, you know, for somebody who…

MEL ROBBINS: Tends to hold everything in, you know, the bottler. You see the thing that hurts your feelings. You feel the emotion that is worry or hurt or abandonment or the thing that’s… You said always take the first feeling. Anger, resentment, put it in the back. What’s the feeling underneath it? For somebody that’s like bottling it up, bottling it up, bottling it up.

TERRY REAL: They’re feeling fear.

MEL ROBBINS: What are they afraid of?

TERRY REAL: They’re afraid that if they tell the truth and rock the boat, it ain’t going to go well. And odds are they grew up in a family where it wouldn’t have gone well. The adaptive child is not stupid. You learn to do what you needed to do back then, but you’re not back there anymore. That’s the beauty.

Learning to Communicate in the Moment

MEL ROBBINS: How do you learn to communicate your feelings in these little moments instead of just putting it aside and putting it aside until you reach a breaking point?

TERRY REAL: Well, you have to dare to rock the boat.

MEL ROBBINS: This goes back to the three steps. Dare to rock the boat and tell the truth. Listen and then teach somebody what you want and reward them in a kind way when they do.

TERRY REAL: And for those of you listening, it may be that your childhood trauma… We said you can have little injuries and have an adaptive child that’s messing things up. That’s true. But you can also have big injuries. Big. You could have grown up in a family where you learned not to tell the truth, because if you did tell the truth, it would not be a good idea. Okay, that was then, this is now. It really helps to separate the wise adult from the adaptive child.

MEL ROBBINS: What does a healthy, connected relationship really look like in practice?

What Healthy Relationships Actually Look Like

TERRY REAL: Telling the truth to each other with love and being human. You know, there are times Belinda and I are at each other, and I really wouldn’t want a video camera recording what we sound like.

I like to say to my clients, look, the skills I’m teaching… Here’s what I say. Every skill I… I’ve been married for 40 years. Every skill I teach has been clinically tested. She’s the clinic. And on those days when either Belinda or I, or, God help us if we both at the same time, lose our wise adults and just go with the adaptive charm, we look just as ugly as you two.

I say that to my patients. They love hearing. I’m just like you. Use your skills as best you can. Expect the wheels to come off sometimes. Nobody’s going to die when they do. Get back in your wise adult. Make amends, apologize, own your shit. Get back on track. We’re a biosphere. We love each other. Let’s work this out.

MEL ROBBINS: I can say every single fight issue, breakdown that I have had in my 29 years of marriage. I can now 1000% see that it’s this feeling of being alone and that it’s all on me, and it is like freaking clockwork.

TERRY REAL: Yeah.

MEL ROBBINS: Once you see it, you will see it everywhere.

TERRY REAL: Everywhere. Then you know what? What a blessing. Maybe after this conversation, I want you to email me and tell me what a blessing it would be for you to come home, the flowers are dead. And instead of ripping his head off, which he then shuts you down, you say to him, you know what, honey? Shoot me. I know you didn’t mean it. I saw those dead flowers. I’m back in my little girl not being cared about, and it made me sad. You see what he does then?

MEL ROBBINS: Yeah. Well, I can also not get mad at him. And I can also assume good intent. And I can also know that, like, a lot of times, he does remember, and I can… And this is like something we thought about 10 years ago. So it sounds kind of funny to even be thinking about it now, because it’s not, and it’s one of the ones. But the point is, the little things become the big things, because the little things are the source of the little things.

TERRY REAL: The little things resonate with what happened to us, so they take on bigger meaning, but what you say is right. You know, I love talking to older couples. I asked them about their life. I saw it had to be late. Barry, 50. I said, you guys seem happy. We are. Tell me. Oh. The first 15 years were hell. Really? Yeah. Horrible. I kept trying to change Harry, and then one day… This is absolutely true. I’m out of… And then one day, I looked at him and I went, oh, that’s Harry. Okay. Ever since then, we’ve been fine.

There is a place for… I call it scanning for the positive instead of scanning for the negative. Be appreciative. Tell your partner what they’re doing right instead of always harping on what they’re doing wrong.

Listener Questions: Reigniting the Spark

MEL ROBBINS: So there are so many listener questions that we have, and I’d love to read one from a listener in Chicago. “We’ve been together for 12 years. We love each other. There’s no doubt about that. But if I’m being honest, it feels like the spark is gone. Same routine, same conversation, same habits, same. There’s no fighting. There’s no big drama, but there’s no real excitement or passion either. I don’t even know what desire would look like for us anymore. It feels flat. And here’s the part I’m struggling with. I want to bring that spark back, but I don’t want it to be forced or fake? How do we actually reconnect with desire and intimacy after years together without pretending or going through the motions?”

TERRY REAL: What makes you think they would be fake? Why don’t you start off by saying to your partner what you just wrote to me. Why don’t you tell the truth? Look, I did a whole book. Audiobook. I called it “Fierce Intimacy.” Lean in and deal with each other. Most people don’t. We stop because when we do, we’re so unskilled, it doesn’t go very well. So we back off. We say we’re compromising, but we’re not. We resent it. Distance grows. Sexuality dies.

If you want to keep your relationship juicy, tell the truth to each other. Take each other on. Start with this. We’re flat. Maybe you’re okay being, you know, watching TV every night, but I’m not. Let’s go do ballroom. And then, like, okay, you’re flat. What are you going to do about it? You show up with a mariachi band. You, you know, you go to the sex store and get some velvet chains? I don’t know. What are you going to do to mix it up? Why are you waiting for your partner to do it?

But tell the truth to each other. We stop doing that because we’re very unskilled. And when we do, it doesn’t go well. We have to learn how to do it.

Breaking the Pattern of Criticism

MEL ROBBINS: Here’s another question. “I’ve been married for 11 years, and I’m realizing I’ve become the critic in the relationship. I notice everything my husband does wrong. The socks on the floor, the way he loads the dishwasher, the tone when he talks to the kids. It’s like I’m constantly scanning for what’s off or annoying. And here’s the thing. I don’t want to be that way. He’s a good man. I love him, but I rarely notice the good stuff until he points it out. Like, why is it that you only mention what I’m doing wrong and he’s right? I don’t want to keep showing up this way. I just don’t know how to switch out of this mindset. How do I stop scanning for what’s wrong and start seeing what’s good again?” What’s going on in this dynamic? Because I think that’s really relatable when you got somebody picking on somebody all the time.

TERRY REAL: Yeah, it’s a point of control, I would say. Who was the complainer in your family growing up? Where’d you learn this from? There’s an adaptive child in there that thinks that picking at them is going to be a good thing.

And then the other issue is, man, intimacy is scary. Vulnerability is scary. Does it feel safer to be constantly nagging what’s wrong than to open up and receive what’s right? And that’s so true for all of us. And the more damage you had as a kid, the more frightening it is.

We fuss with each other because being close to each other in itself can be trauma triggering for us. It’s scary to be vulnerable and close. You have to allow it. That’s the piece I work with next. First we deal with what you do wrong. We deal with what came, where it came from. We give you the skills to do it different. Now you have to receive it. And that’s brand new for all, a lot of us. And it’s frightening. I talk about miserable, comfortable, happy, uncomfortable.

MEL ROBBINS: Let’s talk about miserable, comfortable. What does that look like?

Learning to Be Vulnerable in Love

TERRY REAL: It looks like the same old, same old. You could do it in your sleep, but you could do it in your sleep. You’re perfectly comfortable there. Chris? Honey? When I came home and those flowers were dead, I was back in my family and I didn’t feel very cared about. How’s that feel?

Freaking scary, that’s how that feels. It’s a lot more comfortable to go after them. Adopted children. You’re safe, you’re comfortable. You could do it in your sleep. Wise, adult, new, courageous, scary good. Go there with help with support. 12 step group, woman’s group, but support that will support your relationship, not your individual power.

MEL ROBBINS: What’s so interesting is everybody wants love and wants to feel loved. And I never thought about it as a skill to allow yourself to be loved.

TERRY REAL: Yeah. And it’s hard. So when I’m working with a couple, partner A starts giving partner B what they want. Now we move into what I call transmission reception. Partner A is transmitting. How is partner B doing? Receiving.

When your partner starts giving you what you want, do we fall in their arms and go say, no, we don’t. It’s too little, too late. You did it. But I had to ask you all these yes buts. That’s to protect ourselves from the vulnerability of being loved. Allowing our hearts to open, allowing the love in. That’s scary.

And the less love you had as a kid, the scarier it is to let yourself love and be loved as an adult. I have to tell you a story. Oh, tell me about the nitpicker.

MEL ROBBINS: Yeah, the nitpickers. Please.

The Nitpicker Story

TERRY REAL: I was doing a men’s group and one guy floored everybody. This is a true story. He said, my wife walked in today, told my admin, hold the phone. She had a picnic basket laid out, a picnic on the ground, champagne, a little smooching, packed up everything and left.

All the other guys are like, oh my God, that’s fantastic. He looks at us all in. True story. He goes, “It almost makes up for the way she chews her potato chips.”

You want to foster your partner’s imperfection. They will give you. It’s like fission, endless opportunity to no. Be brave, open your heart, be vulnerable. If you a one down fixer, the vulnerability is standing up for yourself. That’s what’s scary. If you’re a one up fighter, the vulnerability is moving into the herd. Be a human.

But either way, open your heart, take some risks. Intimacy is what we’re born for and respect it. It’s frightening.

MEL ROBBINS: So is that story in the joke an example of how somebody blocks out the love and intimacy?

TERRY REAL: Yeah, yeah. I did work with the great feminist psychologist Carol Gilligan here. We worked together and I called it Carol’s invariant description. I’d be doing all this fancy cool and she said, I’m sorry, Carol, you. She said the same damn thing every time.

She’d look at a couple and she would go, “You know, Bill and Julie, intimacy is really scary, isn’t it? You guys were just close to each other. And then Bill, you brought up a fight from a week ago and Jill, you took the bait. Now you’re back in your corners, safe and miserable. Isn’t it hard to just be in the naked vulnerability of loving each other and being close?”

And every time, of course, it would be beautifully timed. Every time she would say it, they burst into tears. And she was always right. It’s scary to be intimate. It takes courage.

Learning Healthy Relationship Skills

MEL ROBBINS: I’m 34 and I’m realizing I have no idea how to be in a healthy relationship. I either give way too much, I over function people, please, twist myself into knots trying to keep everyone happy, or I do the opposite. I shut down, shut people out, convince myself I don’t need anybody. I swing between the two. It’s exhausting.

It wasn’t modeled healthy love growing up. And now that I’m older, I don’t even know what healthy is supposed to feel like. How do I start figuring that out? What does a healthy relationship look like? And how do I learn to trust myself enough to build one?

TERRY REAL: Well, I brought up Carol Gilligan. Here’s one of my great quotes from her. I love this. “You cannot love from the one down.” That’s running around cleaning everybody’s mess. “You cannot love from the one up.” Shut down. I don’t care about anybody. Love demands democracy.

So this person has to learn how to be in the biosphere. There’s no relationship without voice. There’s no voice without relationship. That’s also terrible.

MEL ROBBINS: Can you do this with yourself all day long? Like if work is pissing you off, if work makes you shut down, if a friendship makes you get angry.

TERRY REAL: Yeah. Although what’s interesting is we tend to be more on our wise adults with everyone but our mates and sometimes our kids, they just don’t get at us in the same way. But yeah, you’re adaptive. Child’s all over the place. We do consulting to teams that aren’t working.

MEL ROBBINS: No, but I meant like if she’s single and so she’s not in a relationship.

TERRY REAL: She is in a relationship. She has a relationship. She’s got parents, she’s got friends, she’s got siblings, she’s got a dog. We’re all in relationships and it’s the same skills and the same work.

MEL ROBBINS: Got it. So if the question is, I look at my track record and I do not trust myself and I don’t know how to do this, and it wasn’t modeled, and you’ve already said, Terry, it hasn’t been modeled for anybody. And nobody teaches these skills. You can start applying absolutely everything now. Right now.

TERRY REAL: Right now.

MEL ROBBINS: Even if you’re not in a romantic relationship, you’re still in a relationship. Yeah, you’re still in relationships. And so these are the tools that you can use for any relationship.

TERRY REAL: This way of thinking relationally, not individualistically. And these tools, telling the truth with love and non harshness, but telling the truth, they’re so different from the culture at large and they’re so potent that doing them badly will transform your life. And here’s the great news. You can start doing them badly right now. Go ahead.

Starting to Practice Relationship Skills

MEL ROBBINS: Because it’s such a disruption to the way we run around and pretend and lie and please and shove our feelings down and rage that simply trying to do these things badly, telling the truth using I statements, not venting, not trying.

TERRY REAL: To be right, your partner will be blown away.

MEL ROBBINS: Well, you’ll also be blown away. You should be by yourself.

TERRY REAL: That’s a happier way to live.

MEL ROBBINS: Well, I often joke, Terry, that, you know, people say that second marriages are really amazing. And I say that’s especially true if it’s with the same person. Well, and I feel like the tremendous amount of work that I’ve done on myself and that Chris and I have done together.

It feels like a completely different relationship because I feel way more peaceful. And I was. I know you will say this is probably not true because we’re all out of control when we don’t understand that adaptive child and the behaviors that come out on automatic when you’re emotionally flooded.

But I felt so out of control with my anger, with my frustration, with my feelings of being alone even though I’m married, that I thought it would always feel that way. And it’s shocking how quickly you can start to apply these skills and feel more peaceful and in control and in harmony with yourself first.

TERRY REAL: That’s the joy.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes.

TERRY REAL: And you also get a better relationship. It’s both.

The Experience of Being Alone Together

MEL ROBBINS: What happens? Can you speak a little bit about that feeling of you’re in a relationship and yet you’re really lonely?

TERRY REAL: I call that alone together.

MEL ROBBINS: Alone together.

TERRY REAL: Yeah, being alone together. And it’s because you’re not telling the truth and you’re not getting through. You know that cliche of the couple at the restaurant that’s sitting there with nothing to say?

MEL ROBBINS: Oh my God, you see so many.

TERRY REAL: Yeah. Well, here’s what I say. It isn’t that they have nothing to say. It’s they have too much to say and no way of saying it. That’s why they’re sitting there in silence.

MEL ROBBINS: If the person listening is feeling like, okay, I’m together alone, what am I going to do? I’m going to like, I’m going to start telling the truth and then blow this whole thing up. Well, isn’t it better to just be together alone instead of blowing up my life?

TERRY REAL: I mean, first of all, learn, because.

MEL ROBBINS: I think that’s the fear.

Learning to Get Through to Your Partner

TERRY REAL: Well, of course it’s the fear. And if you go off like a seven year old adaptive child, what I call individual empowerment. I was weak, now I’m strong. Go screw yourself. The person may blow up. So getting through to somebody is an art. You have to learn how to do it.

But even that is just maximizing your possibility. At the end of the day, it goes like this. First, learn some skills. Do it well. Beating the person over the head probably has something to do with why they’re not listening to you.

Two. Once you learn the skills and you do your best, if you’re still not getting through, get help. Get a couples therapy and get a couple therapists who really helps, which many don’t.

Three. Ready. If you’re still not fully there, I have a tool. Should I stay or should I go? And I call this tool a relational reckoning. And it’s a question. You ready? Yes.

Am I getting enough here to make grieving what I’m not getting worth my while? Am I getting enough to make grieving what I’m not getting? Okay with me.

You know what? Bill was a real playboy, a real lover. And he had partner after partner who swung from chandeliers. He’s now married to a woman, one out of four who has a sexual abuse history. She ain’t swinging from chandeliers. She needs it slow.

In general, does Bill miss the wild’s old days? Yes. That’s okay. Is he going to trade her in for one of those crazy sex dolls? No, he loves her. I’m getting so much that letting go of what I’m not getting is okay with me.

And if that’s your answer, stop bitten and embrace what’s good. If your answer is it’s not okay with me, first stop is therapy, and second stop is you’re done. But don’t keep living like a resentful victim. That’s bad for everybody.

The Relational Reckoning

MEL ROBBINS: I’m just letting that sit because it’s easy to get yourself in a situation where you stay with the wrong person and you’re right about how resentful you are and what a victim you are.

TERRY REAL: Yeah. Why are you staying with the wrong person? First of all, your first shot is turning them into the right person, which I know goes against a little of what you’ve been saying, but you turn them into the right person by using your skills.

MEL ROBBINS: Well, they don’t even have an opportunity to be the right person if you haven’t done the work of asking. Well, and also bringing the wise adult yourself to the relationship and then seeing who shows up when you’re safe and when you’re wise and when you are in the moment and calm and kind and asking for what?

TERRY REAL: You totally got it. What does that mean? They’re the wrong person. And maybe if you change your behavior, guess what happens on the other side of the seesaw. Maybe. But why don’t you give that a shot?

You know everybody who sees me as what I call an essentialist. What’s wrong with my marriage? Them. What’s wrong with them? Them who? That’s who they are. Yeah.

It’s true story. Harry. Harry. Whatever his name was. Comes no sex in my marriage. Oh, I’m sorry to hear that. How long? Decades. Why? She’s frigid. You know, she’s just a cold person. Whole family cold.

Good. I bring in Mrs. Harry. No sex. No, of course not. Of course not. Yeah, you wouldn’t want to have sex with him. He’s a premature ejaculator. Has been for decades. If I try and talk to him about it, he just flies into a rage. He has no interest in my needs and anytime I try and address it, it just gets. Forget it.

I bring in Harry. It’s a true story. Harry, I’ve got great news for you. That sexless marriage you’re in, you have something to do with it. Once you stop blaming the other person and start to see that it’s a system. If it is, you change your behavior and then see what happens. But first change your behavior.

MEL ROBBINS: So did they stay together?

TERRY REAL: Yeah, they started having sex. She taught him how to be a better lover and he was with. I mean, this is where I come in. Harry is in your interests. Come down off your high horse. Let her teach you. You want her in bed with you, make it worth her while.

That goes back to make it worth her while. Really? Okay, I will. Good. Do it. That’s what most therapists don’t do.

Can Any Relationship Be Repaired?

MEL ROBBINS: Do you think any relationship can be repaired?

TERRY REAL: No, and I’m not in the business of repairing every relationship.

When to Walk Away: Non-Negotiable Relationship Dealbreakers

MEL ROBBINS: So what are some of the circumstances or like lines in the sand for you that are important to say?

TERRY REAL: In terms of non-starters, it goes without saying, but if you’re physically in danger, if you’re talking, I don’t ask people to tell truth to power when they’re going to get hurt if they do it. And there unfortunately some reality to that.

So we don’t do couples therapy if there’s a threat of domestic violence. If you’re the victim of honest to God physical threat, get some help, get some safety. That’s not couples work. That’s your work to get safe and your kids safe. And that is absolutely intolerable. Period. End of story.

Some are obvious. Somebody’s got an addiction they don’t want to deal with. Alcoholism, sex addiction. Someone is chronically irresponsible and they don’t want to deal with it. Somebody has a major mental health disorder, depression, anxiety, they don’t want to deal with it. All bets are wrong.

And some are more subtle. If there’s a relationship where there’s a clear asymmetry in the maturity levels of the two people, eventually the immaturity of the immature one will be too painful for the other one to live with and they should go, go find a better partner. But before you go find a better partner, see if you can get this one to be a better partner by changing your moves on your side of the net. First try that.

The Right Way to Talk About Your Relationship

MEL ROBBINS: How honest should you be with your friends and family about the challenges in your relationship? Like, where do you see the line from just sort of healthy sharing and trying to get support because you feel like you can’t or whatever reason versus sharing way too much that might hurt the partnership?

TERRY REAL: Not family, friends.

MEL ROBBINS: What do you mean not family, friends?

TERRY REAL: Well, you don’t want your mother-in-law listening to Chris bitch about what a rager you are. You don’t want that.

MEL ROBBINS: No. You know, one of the biggest fights that Chris and I have ever had in our 29-year marriage was the fact that he shared things with his mom that we were struggling with. Like he went to her for help. I was so angry about it.

I felt so betrayed because it felt like I was no longer married to Chris. It felt like I was now married to her son and she was now in the middle of this issue we were trying to work out privately. And it caused a major rift not only between me and Chris, but I felt all of this distance with my mother-in-law who I’m really close with. But for at least a year, like, I just, it was really awful.

And I know he didn’t mean it and I know he was just looking for the support that he needed. But wow. I have to say, do not go outside your marriage and bring in your family. It’s not fair to your spouse because you’re not in a relationship with your mother-in-law. You’re not in a relationship with your partner’s not in a relationship with your dad, they’re in a relationship with you. So give them the respect to work on it internally.

Oh, I’m so glad you said that. I’m so glad you said that. Because while the intention, I think was beautiful, the actual impact and result was very difficult and damaging. And we’ve of course cleaned it up and learned from it, but wow. Now what about friends though? Because you said friends are okay. And what are the parameters?

TERRY REAL: I teach people this. Train your friends to support relational empowerment, not individual empowerment.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay, what does that look like?

TERRY REAL: Train your friends to support the relationship, not you as an individual. If they’re going to support your marriage, then you can bitch about your partner. But if they’re going to take your confession about your partner as license to empower you at the expense of the relationship, that’s not the friend you want.

So what happens when you talk about your relationship and even that you’re not passive? You can train your friends to support the relationship so that it’s safe to complain. You know, I complain about Belinda, she complains about me. Her friends listen and they go, “Okay. Have you ever thought that maybe you might. Oh, come on, man. Think about it.” That’s a friend.

MEL ROBBINS: So you just say to them, “I need you. I’m going to come to you. I want to talk to you about something going on, but I want this to work. You know, I love him.” Is that how you say it? Like, how do you say it?

TERRY REAL: Yeah. “You’re empowering me to even be more of a fighter. Even more righteously indignant. That is no help to me. So if you’re going to be my friend, I’m going to talk about my marriage. This is what my adaptive child looks like. You know, that I don’t need more support to be a fighter.” Or Chris would say, “I don’t need more support to shut her down. Take a look at what I’m saying and then give me some advice and support about what I can do different.”

The One Action That Will Transform Your Relationship

MEL ROBBINS: Terry, could you speak directly to the person who’s listening or watching right now? And if they take just one action, based on everything that you have taught us today, what do you think the most important thing to do is?

TERRY REAL: Listen. First, figure out if you tend to be one up or one down. If you’re one down, have some courage with love, not harshness. Lean in and deal. If that doesn’t work, get some help.

If you’re one up, get off your goddamn high horse. Show some vulnerability. I don’t care if you’re right. Right is not going to save your marriage. Ask your partner, “What do you need?” Come off of your selfishness and lead in a new way.

If you’re small, get big. If you’re big, get small. Try something new on your side and see if that changes things.

MEL ROBBINS: I love that. If you’re small, get big. If you’re big, get small. I mean, if you’re small, get big, and if you’re big, get small.

TERRY REAL: If you’re one up, come down. If you’re one down, come up. Democracy, democracy, democracy.

MEL ROBBINS: Meaning it’s “we.”

TERRY REAL: “We.”

MEL ROBBINS: It’s not me above you and it’s not me or it’s not me below you? No, it’s me. So when you say one up, you mean you’re the one who’s acting big in the relationship and you feel above the person?

TERRY REAL: Right.

MEL ROBBINS: And when you say one down, you’re saying you’re now small and scared and you feel below the person?

TERRY REAL: Right.

MEL ROBBINS: Oh, so the one up is you’re big, and that’s loud and angry or righteous or venting or any of that stuff. And one down is you feel small and you might be fixing or you might be shutting down or you might be pulling like it’s the…

TERRY REAL: Find some courage.

MEL ROBBINS: Find some courage.

TERRY REAL: If you’re one up, yield, open your heart. Surrender. Be vulnerable. If you’re one down, lean in. Have courage. Stand up for health in the relationship. It’s not even standing up for yourself. Stand up for the biosphere.

A lot of women in particular think it’s selfish of me to stand up for my needs. No, it’s good for your biosphere. Stand up for the biosphere.

A Message for the Partner Who Was Sent This Episode

MEL ROBBINS: Terry, I know this conversation is going to spread around the globe and that so many people are going to listen and feel their hearts and a new possibility open.

TERRY REAL: I hope so.

MEL ROBBINS: And then they’re going to hit share and send this to their partner and say, “Could you listen to this, please?”

TERRY REAL: Good.

MEL ROBBINS: I would love to have you speak directly to the person who is here because their partner sent this to them.

TERRY REAL: Great. Love that.

MEL ROBBINS: What do you want them to know?

TERRY REAL: This is what I want you to know, my friend. It is in your interest to learn how to do this. It’s in your interest. We are born to be relational. If your partner is giving you this episode, it’s because they want you to open your heart. They want you to be a more relational human being.

This is what we’re born for as a species, that this is what makes us healthy, not just mentally, but physically. We are born to do this work. It’s been lost, and we need to retrieve it for ourselves, for our families, for our children.

If you don’t want to do this for yourself and you don’t want to do it for your partner, do it for your kids. They need you to open your heart and be in a functional relationship and do it for the planet. We are treating Mother Nature out of this dominance model. It’s obsolete and is suicidal.

Learn to do this differently. You’ll live 10 years older, your partner will be happier with you, your sex life will improve, and your kids will talk to you, and you might actually do something to save the world. What the hell, give it a shot.

MEL ROBBINS: Thank you for saying that, because I don’t want somebody who receives this to experience it like, “Oh, they’re trying to fix me. They’re trying to change me.” It’s really an invitation.

TERRY REAL: It’s an invitation, and I want to say I admire your heroism to even entertain the possibility. This is hard. I started off by saying this. This is not easy, but the rewards it will give you, your family, your children, are almost inexpressible with hard work. Look, break the chain.

MEL ROBBINS: Terry Real. You’re real good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the work that you’re doing. And thank you for being here and sharing all of this wisdom with us and giving us tools so we can practice these skills so that we might just heal ourselves and in the process make our relationships better.

TERRY REAL: You’re wonderful to speak with. You’re a wise woman, and it was hard won. It takes one to know one now. So bless you for the work you’re doing, too.

MEL ROBBINS: And I also want to thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to this. Thank you for really letting what Terry was teaching us sink in. Thank you for sharing this with your partner, with the people that you care about.

There is no doubt in my mind that if you take everything to heart and you use the tools, especially those four questions. I can’t wait to share this with my kids, with Chris. Oh, my gosh. There’s no doubt in my mind that your relationships are going to get so much better.

And in case no one else tells you today, I wanted to be sure to tell you as your friend that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And if you apply all of the advice that you just heard, there is no doubt in my mind that your life will get better and so will your relationships.

Alrighty. I will see you in the very next episode. I’ll be there to welcome you in the moment you hit play. Alrighty. And I also want to say thank you to you here on YouTube with me. Thanks for watching all the way to the end. Thank you for sharing this episode and the wisdom of Terry Real with your partner, with the people that you care about that deserve more love and better relationships in their life.

And I know you’re thinking, “All right, Mel, what should I watch next?” Well, if you loved this, you are absolutely going to love this one next. And I will welcome you in the moment you hit play.

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