Here is the full transcript of Microsoft AI CEO Mustafa Suleyman’s interview on Silicon Valley Girl Podcast with host Marina Mogilko, on “The Next 10 Years Will Change Humanity Forever”, November 14, 2025.
Brief Notes: In this episode of Silicon Valley Girl, Marina Mogilko sits down with Mustafa Suleyman, CEO of Microsoft AI and co-founder of DeepMind, to map out how artificial intelligence will transform work, education, and everyday life over the next decade. Suleyman explains why he believes we are not in an AI bubble, how close we are to human-level AI on most knowledge tasks, and what that means for jobs, skills, and structural unemployment by 2050. The conversation dives into AI tutors, Copilot’s new health and education features, and “memory” agents that can remember everything about you, raising big questions about dependence, creativity, and whether kids will even need college. If you want a clear, grounded roadmap for staying ahead in an AI-first world, this interview is packed with practical insight and concrete predictions.
Are We in an AI Bubble?
MARINA MOGILKO: Mustafa, welcome. Thank you so much for being here.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Thanks for having me.
MARINA MOGILKO: The first question, everyone’s talking about it on YouTube right now. Are we in an AI bubble?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yes. So no, we’re not. I don’t think so.
When you think about it, we are creating something that is truly magical. Intelligence is the thing that has made us successful as a species. And we’re now distilling that into a smaller and smaller unit that can be spread all over the world and that is going to be cheap and widely abundant. So that’s just a remarkable thought.
MARINA MOGILKO: Yeah, but we kind of had the same thought during the dot-com crash. We’re inventing Internet, blah, blah, blah. But there are some companies that their valuations are much higher than their revenues and everyone’s talking about Nvidia investing and then that revenue going back to Nvidia. What do you think of that?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: No, I think the value that we’re going to produce in the next five to 10 years is going to be unprecedented.
MARINA MOGILKO: So you don’t think we’re going to experience something like, you know, 2008, Covid?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: I mean, who knows? But I think if you just focus on the fundamental value that’s being created, this is the best prediction engine anyone’s ever seen. It’s the smartest, most capable technology we’ve ever invented. It’s improving faster than anything we’ve ever seen. It has got more easy to shape and control, not less.
Three years ago we thought that it was going to get more chaotic and more disorganized, that we weren’t going to be able to sculpt it. And now we’re producing beautiful, powerful, amazing experiences that are surprising us every month. So, yeah, no, I’m genuinely very bullish.
AI Consciousness and Human-Like Qualities
MARINA MOGILKO: Okay, so you’re not worried, you’re good and you shouldn’t be worried. That makes me feel better. Okay, let’s talk about AI becoming more conscious. You talked about it in one of the podcasts that we perceive AI more and more as human. How fast is it happening? What’s going to happen in the next few years?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: It is getting more human-like. It’s getting more accurate, it’s getting more fluid, more smooth, and that is unprecedented. At the same time, it’s definitely not conscious. It isn’t aware of itself. It can’t speak about itself.
It’s very different to what it’s like for a human to have a subjective experience and to feel pain and suffering. And it’s very important that we keep reminding ourselves of that because consciousness is the basis of our rights-based framework and it is the thing that gives us responsibilities as citizens in societies, that allows us to vote, which allows us to be subject to the law, which creates order.
We can’t begin to attribute this quality to a new species. That would be terrible for our species.
MARINA MOGILKO: Yes, but we still heard stories of Google, the story that you told in your book of Google Engineer who was convinced by AI that it was experiencing sadness and it was afraid of being shut down.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: True, true. Yeah. And that was an anthropomorphic projection. Just because it has some human qualities doesn’t mean it has all of human qualities, including subjective experience. And I think we can prove that it doesn’t have subjective experience, that it isn’t going to emerge.
This kind of self-awareness, that’s just a sci-fi fantasy. And I understand why people sometimes go there because we’ve been schooled on sci-fi for as long as forever and it’s a natural assumption to make. But these things don’t suffer, they don’t feel pain, they’re just simulating high quality conversation.
And that is magical. And it feels amazing, but that doesn’t mean that it feels something internally to be one of these models. So we’ve got to be very careful about that.
Relationships with AI
MARINA MOGILKO: Some people talk about our kids having real relationships with AIs in 10 years, like getting married to AIs. Do you think it’s something that could potentially happen? And if yes, how can we prevent that?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: I think the history of the human condition proves to us that if it’s possible, someone will probably do it. People do crazy things, but the majority of people don’t. The majority of people are pretty sound of mind and pretty sensible and want to live healthy, happy lives.
And so if some people choose to marry their AI in 20 years time, I’m not going to sit here and necessarily judge that or say don’t do it or do do it. If you ask me my opinion, I don’t think that these should be treated as entities that are of equal moral significance to humans. I think that they should be in service of humans.
I love the technology behind this microphone because it amplifies our voices and distributes them to millions of people on the Internet. That is a technology that is in service of humanity, that’s doing good. That’s what we want.
And I don’t necessarily think that these are an idea of superintelligence that is autonomous, that can self-improve, that can set its own goals, that can act independently of humans. That to me doesn’t feel like a positive vision of the future. It would be very hard to contain something like that or align it to our values. And so that should be the anti-goal. That’s not what we’re trying to build.
In my opinion we’re trying to build a humanist superintelligence, one that is aligned to our interests, on our team, in our corner, backing us up. That’s the great project that we’re engaged in at Microsoft with Copilot.
AGI and the Future of Work
MARINA MOGILKO: But then again, a lot of people are talking about AGI. Is that similar to superintelligence or how would you…
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah, you can think of AGI as a step before maybe superintelligence. But roughly speaking, they’re used fairly interchangeably.
MARINA MOGILKO: Because Demis, your ex co-founder, mentioned we could achieve it by 2030. Can you talk about what it means for…
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah, I mean I think achieving human-level performance at most tasks, I wouldn’t say all knowledge tasks. That feels quite likely in the next five years, I think. It’s a fairly grounded prediction if you think about it.
These models already do many tasks better than a human. I mean, summarization, translation, transcription, research, document writing, maybe even arguably poetry or some parts of literature or whatever. So you can see that they’re taking steps towards being as good as a human at being a project manager or being a marketing person or an HR person, or having a tough conversation with somebody about a diagnosis for a medical condition they have.
So it is going to fundamentally change work in the most profound way. It’s going to change the type of work that we do. 10 years ago, it wasn’t possible for you to do the job that you’re now doing. But with streaming content, you don’t need a big team around you. You don’t need to be part of a big institution.
So we’ve democratized access to the power of broadcast with the arrival of the Internet and streaming and podcasting. That’s amazing. Now, with these models, we’re democratizing access to intelligence so you don’t have to be a really privileged, wealthy, educated person that has access to capital to be able to found a company to hire a great team.
You’re going to have a team of intelligences around you that are the best lawyer, the best doctor, the best teacher, the best project manager. And that is going to create unbelievable amounts of competition because the distance between an idea and the realization of that idea is going to collapse. That’s an amazing thought.
People are just going to be thinking new companies into existence, new products, new pieces of poetry. But that’s amazing.
MARINA MOGILKO: You said people. My concern is, you and me…
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: You’re going to have an agent around you that is going to be able to execute on that idea.
MARINA MOGILKO: You know what my concern is with superintelligence, that AI is going to come up with ideas, because why would it need… Why do we need to come up with ideas if AI has all the information? If we’re talking about marketing business, for example, it can identify gaps in the market, come up with a website, launch the ad, do the business. Do you think that might happen?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: It will definitely happen. It’ll definitely happen. You’re going to have a team of agents around you that can do more and more of the tasks and arguably do them autonomously. But that comes back to what we were saying before about containment.
Containment is the project of making sure that these AIs have limited scope and check in with you and are accountable to you and are working on your behalf. And so the creative challenge for technologists is to say, what are the limitations? What are the guardrails? What can it not do? When does it have to seek your approval for an autonomous action?
And we’ve done this many times in past moments of technology, right? We invented the combustion engine almost a century ago, and that over time became cars and trucks and so on and so forth. But the amount of regulation that we put around those vehicles to make them work for us in service of humanity, it’s unbelievable, right?
Seat belts and vehicle emissions and street lights and freeways and speed limits and driver education. There’s so many different components that go into that. And I think this is going to be no different. We’re going to have to figure out what are all the regulations and guardrails that go into managing autonomous agents so that they always work for us.
What Makes Us Human in an AI World
MARINA MOGILKO: Let’s imagine superintelligence. What does my day look like then? If AI is capable of so many things, what is this thing that is very specific to humans and is going to stay with humans?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah, I think that great technology helps you get bad technology out the way. And that’s the test. It is kind of annoying to use a graphical user interface today on your desktop. If you think about it, if you just take a step back, you go to your computer and you’ve got all these windows with different colors and different brands and different menus and information hierarchies and different settings.
And you have to learn each app for its own sake. And we don’t think of it as advertising, but when you open your computer, you kind of have a billboard of all these different competing apps that are like, “use me, try me, do…” It’s kind of distracting, it’s kind of ugly.
I just want to be able to turn to my AI and be like, “I need this task done. Solve it for me, buy it for me, book it for me, create it, check in with me at the right time, get my permission, get my feedback, brainstorm with me, whatever it is.”
But you’re going to start to see the operating system, the browser, the search engine, the apps, all of these are going to slip away as your personal humanist superintelligence takes over a lot of the day-to-day work of browsing, searching, planning, booking, syncing, et cetera.
MARINA MOGILKO: So it’s no longer going to be a computer, you think?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah, I mean, less and less. I think we’ll have different kinds of devices like tablets, wearables. It’ll be much more ambient in five to 10 years.
MARINA MOGILKO: Imagine it’s 2040 and we’re in this kitchen. What things are obsolete, they don’t exist anymore. And what do I have to make my life easier?
The Future of Home Robotics and AI Integration
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: So I think there will probably be some kind of household robotic arm. Probably. I don’t know if it will be a humanoid walking around, but certainly you would have a mounted system on your counter here. I think it will learn to use all the different appliances.
So probably you would have many of the similar appliances that you’ve got today, but the AI is just going to learn to use them in the way that you would use them. I think some people imagine that the entire thing is going to look totally different to suit the AI, but actually it’s not like the robot is just going to learn to do the things that you do in the way that you do it.
So you’re still going to want to use a kettle. I mean, that kettle is hundreds of years old. We’ve been making cups and handles like that in the same way. So I think that stuff will remain the same.
MARINA MOGILKO: So the hand or a humanoid, what are you leaning towards?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: I think the human. I mean, 15 years is a pretty long way out, so it probably will be humanoid. But I think the challenge with humanoid is like the physical, the risk of it being physically in your space. I think it’s got to be very, very accurate and very reliable and handling hot things around children and the elderly and you can imagine all kinds of complications. So I think it will be technically feasible. It will just be a bit of an adjustment to people get comfortable with it.
MARINA MOGILKO: What about devices? Do you think I’m going to have like an AI projector and like tap on the air and get instructions on how to cook things or is it going to be glasses?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: I think that you’re going to just have it in your ear. So I think that your AI is like your personal AI is just going to have ambient awareness of what you’re trying to do and talk to you in real time.
MARINA MOGILKO: So it will have a camera in my ear.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah.
MARINA MOGILKO: Interesting. Yeah, I don’t think anyone’s working on it.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah, I mean it’s very hard to miniaturize that today. So it’s still a bit of a way off. But by 2040, definitely. And you’ll have other wearables on you. I mean, look at how cool this mic is at the moment. It’s tiny, super light. So in time that’ll have a camera on it as well and have ambient awareness.
MARINA MOGILKO: Okay. So robotic arm wearables. Anything else?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: And then I think those, that ambient awareness is going to mean that the entire kitchen is just way more proactive, proactively ordering the food and just checking in with you, like, “Oh, I know that you’ve got a lot of guests coming this weekend. Should I order all the stuff for the barbecue?” All of that stuff will just happen seamlessly in the background and the car.
MARINA MOGILKO: Will go and pick it up stuff up.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah, we’ll definitely have self-driving cars by 2040 that basically do most of that. Yeah, well, maybe there’ll be little bikes or form factors because it won’t necessarily need to look like a traditional car.
AI’s Impact on Healthcare and Medicine
MARINA MOGILKO: Are there any markets where you think people should be paying attention to if they want to stay ahead in this AI race? What are the most exciting markets?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: I think by far the most exciting new market is medicine. I think at the moment the quality difference between the top 10% and the bottom 10%, even in the United States, let alone rest of the world, is unbelievable. The gulf is like probably an order of magnitude. It’s huge.
And again, that’s going to completely collapse because everybody is going to have access to medical superintelligence and it will cost 20 bucks a month. It is going to be remarkably cheap.
MARINA MOGILKO: Talk to me about what you just released. Harvard backed research, right, within Copilot. If I ask a medical question, how is it going to work?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Exactly. So now, I mean we find that like about 40% of our queries each week are health related.
MARINA MOGILKO: 40%?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah, 40. It’s pretty remarkable. Like millions of people a day are asking health related queries. So we decided to really focus on improving the quality of the health answers. And part of doing that is that we ground the answers in citations from Harvard Medical, which is an amazing kind of gift of the world, like the most respected health institution.
And we also do the NHS in the UK and we’ll be doing other health systems over time. And so people now get really high quality, very reliable, pretty accurate. Like sometimes it makes mistakes. It’s not, you can’t rely on it yet, you always have to go see a doctor, et cetera.
But if you think about it, most of the time in a healthcare situation, people are trying to make sense of a complicated technical set of language that they don’t really understand. They’re probably anxious or worried, so they want to repeat things. Lots of times they want to get it explained in a very simple way and sometimes they want help actually making a decision about who to go see.
So we also now have recommendations for physicians. You could go see a doctor, you could see a dermatologist, you could see a physiological. And we will find someone that fits your preferences. Like, maybe you want to see a woman physio who specializes in sports massage because you’re a cyclist and you want them to be local to your area and so we can make that recommendation. Copilot does that directly inside of the app in chat. That is awesome. Yeah, it’s so cool to see that taking off.
The Future of Education and Knowledge Acquisition
MARINA MOGILKO: I love that I need to ask about my cholesterol level. We’re going to do this today. Like you mentioned that access to knowledge is now democratized. What’s going to happen to traditional education? Will we see the standard like bachelor’s master’s, where we basically spend five or six years just acquiring knowledge?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah, I don’t think so. I think that knowledge acquisition is going to be a conversation between you and Copilot. So for example, another feature that we just launched today, in fact, is this Learn Live feature.
So you actually have a tutor shows up on the screen and it will lay out a quiz for you on any topic that you like. So it doesn’t have to be a school curriculum topic. You might be learning about cacti or Persian rugs. It will give you an education on it, lay out the kind of curriculum piece by piece, give you a nice quiz, present it in a nice graphical user interface.
And so knowledge acquisition is about to get completely decentralized and available to everybody and you just have an expert teacher in your pocket on any subject.
MARINA MOGILKO: Does this mean all education businesses are dead? I’m thinking about my apps.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: I think it’s the opposite. I think education businesses that adopt these kinds of AI tools and integrate them as quickly as possible, that they’re really going to flourish. It’s happening like that for everything.
I mean, now in Copilot, you can also generate a podcast, literally in a minute. It’s a great introductory thing. Like the other day I generate, I don’t really follow football or like soccer, but I do support Arsenal because I’m from London and when I go back to London to see my friends, I want to know what I’m talking about a little bit.
So I asked Copilot to generate me a podcast on how Arsenal is doing in the season and what the latest is with the transfers and who are the best players and stuff like that. So just like fun, simple bits of information are perfect. And now I’m in the gym listening to a little five, seven minute podcast about that.
MARINA MOGILKO: Going back to knowledge and education, should I be saving for my kids college or not? They’re five and four, so.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: So 15 years time. Yeah, probably not.
There you go. I don’t know, it’s really hard to judge. I’m not sure that we will value a Stanford education that costs, I don’t know, what does it cost, 50 grand a year or something? Is it more? Something crazy?
MARINA MOGILKO: 50 is a private school here.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Right. I mean, I just, I don’t, I think that we’re going to have world class expertise on tap that cost 20 bucks a month.
MARINA MOGILKO: But what if like, for example, right now I’m educated and like I said, in maths, economics, so I can have these conversations. If I completely abandon acquisition of knowledge, how can I have an argument? It’s not like I’m always talking to my phone. Right.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: You could still argue about stuff. If anything, it’ll probably make us all more awful argumentative because we’ll be even more knowledgeable. We want to be exchanging ideas with people. Right?
MARINA MOGILKO: Yeah. I mean, but you base your arguments on things that you’ve acquired when learning something.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah, but that’s kind of my point is that the knowledge acquisition in the traditional form, in the classroom with the textbook, that’s going to shift entirely. So the classroom is going to look more like practicing using your knowledge.
MARINA MOGILKO: I’d acquire more knowledge if I do it the other way around with AI.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Exactly.
MARINA MOGILKO: Okay.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Because then as a kid, you’re going to be able to talk to your AI tutor at any time during the day. You’re going to learn from the AI podcast, you’re going to learn from the AI video that is going to be generated. So all the kind of straightforward teaching is going to take place with the student and the AI.
And then when you come into the classroom for your day, the students are going to be talking to each other about the knowledge that they’ve acquired from their AI and debating and learning to be more empathetic and be better listeners and adjust their tone and that kind of thing.
Teaching Kids in the Age of AI
MARINA MOGILKO: So what do you think parents should be teaching their kids now?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: I think it’s still important to be good at learning knowledge from first principles yourself and not depending on the sort of AI tutor leading you through. Like, I think one of the most important things is from school is the discipline of being able to teach yourself. That’s a meta skill and that comes with friction.
So I think as a parent, you still have to introduce discipline and friction into the process, because if it comes all too slowly and it’s always on tap, then there’s a risk that the child could just get used to having everything instantly available and doesn’t learn from the hard work, the benefits of hard work, which I think are important. So that’s something to think through now that everything is going to be so seamless.
Non-Technical Backgrounds in AI Leadership
MARINA MOGILKO: Another question I wanted to ask you, for everyone who thinks that they need to be technical in the age of AI, you have philosophical background and you’re ahead of AI at Microsoft.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah, I mean, I think that it’s easier than ever to understand what’s being built. Like, everything is available on YouTube. There are so many courses. The curriculums for all of the major CS classes, machine learning classes, are available for undergraduate, master’s level even.
MARINA MOGILKO: Is that how you learn?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah, like, I’ve watched, I watched Andrew Ng’s course back in the day, which I encourage everyone to look at. There’s just so many classes I watched maybe 10 years ago, I think, when he was at Coursera and it first came out.
MARINA MOGILKO: Wow.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: And I’ve just watched so many of those, so it’s very accessible. And I think if you just have a logical mind, you’re patient, you’re disciplined with your own learning. It is actually very, very easy.
MARINA MOGILKO: That’s great. So anyone, well, basically anyone who learns can become head of AI, build an AI company without learning how to code?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah, because the skills now, I mean it’s still good to have to learn how to code, but the primary skill is in synthesis. Like the goal is to bring together all the different disciplines of UX and research and products and the aesthetic and also large scale distributed systems for training big models doing the hardware.
So I think that people who are multidisciplinary and can straddle loads of different technical disciplines are going to get rewarded most.
AI Memory and Personalization
MARINA MOGILKO: Yeah. Well, this is so inspiring. You’ve released the memory feature, right? So AI is going to remember everything about us. I don’t know how it’s going to. I haven’t tried the Copilot yet, but with other AIs, I see how it forgets. Like I just tell it and then I ask the question and for some reason forgets and I have to remind it. Is it going to be a problem? Have you tried it?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: It doesn’t have infinite perfect memory, but it does remember specific durable facts. So it will remember that you have a preference for, I don’t know, pineapple on pizza and that you like going running on a Sunday morning or whatever.
MARINA MOGILKO: Or like my measurements, that’s the thing that my AIs keep forgetting.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Oh really?
MARINA MOGILKO: Can you choose the size from this website? Oh, I don’t have your measurements. I’m like, no. Yes you do.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Oh, interesting.
MARINA MOGILKO: And be like, oh exactly. I do have them. I experienced this forgetting problem almost everywhere with AI.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: I mean, we’re working on a good knowledge representation as well. So you can go and edit the AI’s memory of what it knows about you. And if you ask Copilot today what do you know about me, it will produce a pretty long list. It’s not entirely definitive. So it won’t be absolutely everything that you’ve ever told it. It is selective and it choose what to remember and you can tell it to remember certain things like please remember that my size.
But it is going to remember everything in the future and be perfect if you choose for it to do that. And of course you can delete it and control it and edit it as you wish.
The Impact on Human Memory and Intelligence
MARINA MOGILKO: So if it remembers everything, what’s going to happen to our brains?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: I think people said that about calculators, right? Like, you know, people aren’t going to have to memorize their times tables anymore, they’re just going to use the calculator.
MARINA MOGILKO: But you know what, when I was preparing for GMAT, the test that you have to take for an MBA, they don’t allow you to use calculators. And there are a lot of numbers. I remember then the two weeks after the exam, my brain was so fast because I trained it to calculate, and then I gradually slowed down and I lost.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Do you think that that transferred into other areas of your knowledge because you’re good at memorizing the numbers?
MARINA MOGILKO: No, I think it was just related to numbers.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: It’s sort of the risk, isn’t it? It’s like, you know, I used to be able to memorize a lot of telephone numbers as a kid because I.
MARINA MOGILKO: Because you had to?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah. I didn’t get a cell phone till I was, like, 15. I think I was one of the first people to get cell phones in my year at school. And before that, everyone just remembered telephone numbers. And now I can barely remember my own phone number from, you know, my own house.
MARINA MOGILKO: Yeah. Do you think it affects our brains or they just develop in a different way?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: I don’t think so, because my brain is now stimulated in a lot of other directions. You know, it’s a muscle that you don’t exercise, but in turn, you focus on other aspects of your brain. And so I think that we’re way better at synthesizing vast amounts of novel information compared to, like, you know, people in the 50s or our ancestors 200 years ago.
I mean, we’re completely bombarded with stimulus. Right. And so I think that’s interesting. It’s had an interesting effect. In some respects, it’s made us a bit more polarized. In other respects, it’s made us much more empathetic. Like, we don’t fear, you know, people of color or people of different sexualities or women. And a lot of that has got to do with just being aware of others and spending time with them and watching them on social media and behave in different ways.
And that has driven a lot more empathy. Actually, people often focus on how it’s driven a lot more disagreement, and it has, but it’s also driven so much more understanding and, you know, respect and forgiveness and those kinds of things to do in general.
MARINA MOGILKO: Do you think we’re getting dumber with AI or not?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: No, I don’t think we’re getting dumber. I think that it reduces the barrier to accessing information and actually makes us a lot smarter. You can ask any question now, and many people are. So questions that were previously going unasked because the cost of going to a library and pulling a book off the shelf and talking to the librarian was too hard. It took, like, four hours to get an answer to some question.
Like, now you can go to the web and then after the web, you can answer a question, ask a perfect question in a conversational way to a chatbot. So I think that’s driving more collective intelligence and more awareness and understanding of our world.
Killer Features and Practical Applications
MARINA MOGILKO: Can you talk to me about some killer features that you think people are underutilizing right now with AI? Like, you implement something and then you save like an hour a day. So for me, it was asking AI to add things to my calendar, reply to my emails, search through my emails. That has saved me a lot of time.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the super exciting features is this thing we’re calling connectors. So Copilot connectors. And you can just say to Copilot, hook up my Gmail, hook up my calendar. You can do it in Teams. You can do it with your Dropbox, you can do it any basically source of data that you have about yourself and then ask Copilot any question about it.
So scheduling, booking, searching for content, and it will actually integrate that knowledge into its answers as well. So if you say, oh, I’m planning to go here at the weekend, it’ll be like, oh, but you’ve already made this appointment here. Or, you know, so it would. That they will seamlessly have that contextual awareness about you. It’s a really cool feature.
MARINA MOGILKO: So even if I ask it, ask it to schedule, something is going to tell me, like, oh, you have a conflict.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah.
MARINA MOGILKO: Oh, nice.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Or, or it’s going to just be like, you know, you’re interested. I, I, you know, I was reading from you like, you know, where you went on vacation last year when you did your travel planning that you really enjoyed, you know, Greece or something like that. And so you might want to try, you know, whatever.
MARINA MOGILKO: What is your personal favorite use case?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: I use voice three or four times a day and I use it at the end of the day as well for kind of journaling and talking. I have it set up on my iPhone in the power button. So I literally just press the power button straight away, goes into voice mode, and then I kind of talk to Copilot on the way home, when I’m driving home.
MARINA MOGILKO: So you talk about your day or.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah, talk about my day.
MARINA MOGILKO: Like journaling.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah, it’s totally. And then it, then it will remind me what I’ve said in previous days and it will help me think through a tricky problem I have. And it kind of maintains state for me. It’s like a second memory.
MARINA MOGILKO: Wow, I love this. Yeah, like second memory journaling that has all the information and then. Yeah, helps you with your decisions.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: It does, yeah. Very cool.
Privacy and Trust
MARINA MOGILKO: Do you ever worry it knows too much about us?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: No. I think that as long as it’s useful and it’s got a purpose, I don’t mind. And I think that’s also the story of technology so far. Right. Everybody uses the camera and uses location and knows their search history is helping personalize search.
The Future of Work and Creativity
MARINA MOGILKO: Like you said, we have to be careful about it. Elon Musk is very vocal about containing AI. I think Geoffrey Hinton said that we’ll have to be plumbers if we don’t learn how to work with AI.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Plumber. Did he?
MARINA MOGILKO: Yeah, because, like, we’re still not there with robotics to do certain tasks, especially, like, when every house is custom. Right. So it’s not a standardized task, but with intelligence, it’s like we’re getting to a point where people either learn to do something with hands or become entrepreneurs and use AI to bring their ideas to life, or then you’re out.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: No, but I think it’s making all of us way more creative because people have access to tools in a way they never had before. Right. Not just access to information, but to access the experimentation. You can take an idea, generate the product for it in an image. You can generate the technical specification. You can get the documentation for your marketing campaign. So you can simulate all of these things ahead of time before you’ve even built and deployed something.
MARINA MOGILKO: What if you’re not entrepreneurial enough? I’m just thinking about people who are like, I just want to do, like, standard thing every single day.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah. Yeah.
MARINA MOGILKO: I just feel good about it.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Right, Right. But is that an AI problem or is that.
MARINA MOGILKO: I think it’s an AI problem because, like, those standardized tasks, something that’s super repeatable is being replaced.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah. But it depends on your default assumption about the human condition. I don’t believe that the majority of people do want to work on a toothpaste packing line just screwing in the top of a toothpaste tube. I think that people want creative work. I think people want to pursue their passions. They want to, you know, be led by their own interest and curiosity.
And we shouldn’t valorize or, you know, sort of idolize, like, routine work. Most people. I think many people do jobs that they would love to get rid of and pursue their passion. And I think AI lowers the barrier to entry to you pursuing your passion.
Now, quite often, you might be in a partnership with your husband or your wife or your best friend, and they might not be as interested in collecting stamps or sort of like keeping snails or great shoes as you are. Right. And then that’s unfortunate. Now you have an AI that knows everything that you could possibly think of about your stamp passion and I think that’s cool.
Adapting to Change and Economic Disruption
MARINA MOGILKO: What about adjusting to the speed at which AI is developing? During the industrial revolution, workers destroyed machines that replaced them. Could something like that happen again?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: That’s natural. It’s healthy to express fear and frustration publicly and be open and vocal about it. We shouldn’t shame it. People are afraid and it’s very understandable.
But the history of science and technology tells us that net, net these tend to be, or at least so far they have been incredibly positive transitions we’ve made. Like automation has lifted billions of people out of poverty. You know, our average life expectancy over the last 250 years has gone from about 30 to about 75. Right. That’s unbelievable. Like that people are living three times longer pretty much. And that’s as a result of all of these discoveries and all this science and so on.
So I think so far so good. And I do think that the trend is headed in the right direction. It doesn’t mean that there won’t be consequences and side effects and like you have to be very open minded to that and very like conscious of it. It is going to happen.
MARINA MOGILKO: Do you think in our case we’ll have UBI to? I hope so, because we’ve never had it before. And you think this is the time?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: I think we do have it. I mean that’s what our taxation system does. It decides who to, you know, redistribute from and who to redistribute to. And it incentivizes certain types of behavior.
MARINA MOGILKO: I like everything about it.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: And so we do have a large scale redistribution mechanism today. Wealthier people do pay more taxes than people who don’t. Pretty much sort of. It’s pretty roughly true. It’s true. Certainly income tax, not so much on capital gains tax is true. And so we’ve done redistribution before and we’ll have to do redistribution again.
I mean the truth is these are labor replacing technologies. And you can debate the timelines, but I think you can certainly say by 2050, like in 25 years time, I think there’s going to be significant structural disemployment. I think that a large portion of the population are going to struggle to compete in the workplace with AI and we’re going to have to decide whether to shorten the working week or whether to increase taxes on some portion of capital.
Or indeed like some portion of high earning incomes and how to redistribute that, because that’s what civilization is about. It’s about bringing everybody with us and not just a few, 100%.
MARINA MOGILKO: And do you think the governments will be working on that or large companies who have?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: I think the governments have to lead it. I mean, it needs to be democratically accountable and there’s no question that it needs to be led by governments. But companies are going to be the ones footing the bill. Companies are going to be the ones that are driving this massive transition.
I mean, Bill Gates said many years ago now, like six or seven years ago, that we need a robot tax. The only way to do it is to tax the robots and tax. Essentially what that means is tax capital. Because intelligence, which was previously the domain of labor, like people, is now getting converted into capital. It’s going to be turned into a commodity that can be sold and resold infinitely. And so that’s where the value transition is going to happen. And so taxation has to follow that value transition.
MARINA MOGILKO: He called your book his favorite book on AI. So you wrote your book a few years ago. Is there something that has changed completely that you couldn’t predict when you were writing this book?
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Change completely?
MARINA MOGILKO: There was an update about 2024 when you said “the wave is here,” the wave of AI. What is that 2025 update to your book?
The Evolution of AI Capabilities: From IQ to SQ
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah, good question. So in the book I sort of laid out this framework of capabilities. There was IQ, the intelligence quotient, which is kind of like the factuality and the knowledge citations and stuff. And that was about hallucinations. And I predicted that they were going to be largely eliminated. And I think pretty much we’re on track. Pretty much they are.
There was the emotional intelligence, which is the tone and style of the personalities of these things. And then there was the AQ. So IQ, EQ, AQ. AQ is the actions quotient, like the extent to which it can get things done, book your calendar, appointments and stuff like that.
The bit that I missed is SQ, the social intelligence. And like today actually we’re launching this new feature, Copilot Groups. And it’s the first time that you can chat with up to 32 other people and Copilot all in one group. So if you’re organizing a trip or you’re working with your team. No, you’re working with your team or you’re trying to plan a care pathway for your parent or sibling or something like that, you can have the family or your friends or your colleagues in a single group chat, all seeing the same context, all asking their own questions.
And the cool thing about the social intelligence of Copilot is that it can change its tone and style and responses to each individual person in the group, knowing that, like, your mum might want a different type of explanation to your younger brother or something. And it also remembers the types of jokes that people like or the history that you have talked about. So if you say that you’re really into tennis or something, then it’s going to remember to talk to you about Wimbledon or whatever it is. Right.
And that’s social intelligence. That’s what we do as humans. We can manage the room, we can adjust our style and tone. I didn’t expect us in 2025 to design AIs that are really good at IQ, knowledge and factualness, have really pretty good personalities, can actually take actions on our behalf and can manage group settings. The group thing is very exciting.
MARINA MOGILKO: Wow. Where does this lead us in 10 years? This particular quality of AI?
The Future of Human-AI Collaboration
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: I think it’s going to be the main frontier. I think it’s going to be the most interesting part because those group settings will involve other humans joining them. So it could be a professional joining, like a lawyer to give legal advice. And then that lawyer is going to bring their own AI paralegal to fact check or to summarize.
Or it could be the doctor. And you will have spoken to your AI doctor for half an hour before the human doctor comes in to the same chat. And the AI doctor will have summarized everything, briefed you, talked you through everything, reassured you, answered 25 questions. And then you talk to the human at the end for a shorter time and get the full feedback from the human. And the human doctor knows that its AI is the one that has been approved and it relies on and it kind of reflects them. So you’ll have humans and AIs of different types all in the same group setting.
MARINA MOGILKO: A Zoom call.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Yeah, kind of like a Zoom call or a Zoom chat. You know, it’s like. It’s basically like. Well, I mean, that’s what is Copilot Groups. You know, there’s going to be group chat all the time.
MARINA MOGILKO: Wow. Okay. This is so fascinating. Thank you so much.
MUSTAFA SULEYMAN: Pleasure. Thank you for having me. This has been really fun.
MARINA MOGILKO: Yeah, thank you.
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