EDITOR’S NOTES: In this tense CNN interview, HHS Secretary RFK Jr. faces sharp questioning over COVID-19 policies, historical pandemic responses, and vaccine safety. The discussion grows particularly heated as the host challenges him on rising measles outbreaks, vaccine skepticism, and the heavily debated alleged links between childhood vaccines and autism. Read the full transcript of the interview below:
COVID-19, Pandemic Response, and Public Health: RFK Jr. Interview with CNN’s Dana Bash
DANA BASH: You have been placing nearly all the blame on the COVID pandemic and the way that the U.S. responded to it squarely with Dr. Fauci. But of course, he worked for President Trump. Does President Trump also deserve some of the blame?
RFK JR.: Well, President Trump, as you recall, wanted to end the lockdowns. I think the thing that did the most damage to our country was the lockdowns — lockdowns that shut down 3.5 million businesses in our country with no due process, no just compensation. All of our churches closed, our schools, and our children are still paying the price for that. And yet we had the worst outcome of any country in the world.
DANA BASH: How so?
RFK JR.: We have the highest death rate from COVID of any nation on Earth.
DANA BASH: Well, let me just say, because I’ve heard you say that before on the death rate from COVID, that’s not accurate because public health experts say that there is a combination of factors that went into that — higher rates of chronic illnesses, which I know you would agree with, gaps to our healthcare system, and misinformation about vaccines.
Debating COVID Death Rates and Lockdowns
RFK JR.: You just said what I said was inaccurate. What I said was accurate. We had the highest death rate from COVID of any —
DANA BASH: There are now —
RFK JR.: There are other countries that had higher, but you can argue about why we had that. Nobody can tell you. I mean, we have, as you say, we have the highest chronic disease burden in the world. But Anthony Fauci was mismanaging the COVID pandemic and was doing it under the Biden administration. President Trump wanted to end the lockdowns. In fact, in Anthony Fauci’s diaries, he talks about how President Trump is calling him every day trying to get him to reopen the country.
DANA BASH: Yeah, well, the lockdowns were done by governors. I mean, certainly Anthony Fauci and the president had opinions, but the lockdowns were done by governors, and largely because they were hearing from hospitals saying that their ICUs were overrun and they needed some help while that was happening.
RFK JR.: But I want to — that’s just not true. What you’re saying is not true. No, they were doing it because Anthony Fauci was telling them from the top, “You need to lock down.” There were ICUs that were empty all over the country, including in New York at the height.
DANA BASH: I’m going to go back to what I asked you at the beginning, which is President Trump. And he was the guy in charge. And you tweeted back in 2024 that he let bureaucrats like Anthony Fauci shut down the entire country. Again, the president was in charge.
RFK JR.: The president was trying to reopen the country when he left. The country was kept closed for another year, almost a year and a half after that.
Gain-of-Function Research and Pandemic Preparedness
DANA BASH: Let’s talk about how to prevent the next pandemic, because there’s a lot of litigating and relitigating that I don’t think is really helpful to do with regard to COVID. And the question is about so-called gain-of-function, which for people who aren’t entirely clear about it, it is a highly risky research process that includes manipulating a virus to study how it behaves as it evolves. Now, what scientists say is that although it’s controversial, it’s necessary to prepare for the next pandemic, to get ahead of it, to figure out what these viruses can do. You want to end this gain-of-function research. Some scientists say, isn’t it better just to put better guardrails around it?
RFK JR.: People have been trying to put guardrails around it for generations and it hasn’t worked. And clearly, the COVID-19 pandemic and many other global pandemics that we have have come from gain-of-function research. The RSV epidemic that we have, that is the biggest killer of kids in this country today, came from these kind of experiments. Lyme disease almost certainly came from this kind of research. And the scientists who you say are experts, making the argument that this is necessary for pandemic response, cannot point to one instance in history where research that came out of this kind of experimentation has actually provided us something beneficial.
DANA BASH: So how do you prepare then? How do you prepare for the next pandemic? I mean, that’s literally part of your job now because experts think it’s going to happen within the next 10 years again.
RFK JR.: Yeah, I mean, I think we did virtually everything wrong the last time.
DANA BASH: So what about now?
RFK JR.: The principal thing that we need to do is we need to listen to what’s happening to doctors on the ground. There are 15 million frontline physicians around the world. They’re mainly now connected through the internet. We can tell on the front lines what’s working and what’s not. If we had listened to those doctors during the COVID pandemic, we would have saved potentially millions of lives.
There were therapeutics out there that were working. There were doctors that were having no deaths from COVID and treating, in some cases, thousands of patients. And we weren’t listening to them. Instead, we were doing the opposite. We were shutting them down.
And then, Dana, the other thing that I would say is that we need to protect our constitutional rights — that that is the primary obligation.
DANA BASH: What does that mean?
RFK JR.: Well, during COVID we completely dismantled our constitutional rights.
We began censoring people in violation of the First Amendment.
DANA BASH: But you’re saying what not to do. I’m asking what to do. But I want to talk about —
RFK JR.: That’s something to do. That is the number one priority. We protect the Constitution. The Constitution was written —
DANA BASH: Forgive me, but you’re talking about rights and I’m asking about a potential public health crisis that is coming. But I do want to — let’s —
RFK JR.: And one of the mistakes we made in the last time was suppressing those rights so people weren’t being heard. The doctors who were saying “you’re doing it wrong” were being marginalized and vilified.
A Tense Exchange on Media, Vaccines, and COVID
DANA BASH: Yeah. And because — again, I really want to move on. But you were saying — yes, I do.
RFK JR.: Part of the problem.
DANA BASH: No, I wasn’t.
RFK JR.: I think it was absolute press malpractice. You weren’t allowing your —
DANA BASH: Mr. Secretary, your job —
RFK JR.: Your job is a fierce skepticism toward authority. And you weren’t doing that. You were beating up on people who were dissenting.
DANA BASH: No. Okay. Are you going to — you want to sit here and attack me, or do you want to have conversations about public health? I’m not attacking you. I’m asking questions about how to prevent the next pandemic. And I’ll tell you, that’s what I’m trying to do. But I also don’t want to use this interview to allow you to say things that aren’t entirely true.
You’re talking about therapeutics. Fine. It is also factually true that the COVID vaccine worked. The COVID vaccine prevented deaths. There is data upon data upon data. Let’s talk about the measles, please, because this is something that is happening as we speak.
RFK JR.: The cases in the U.S. protected children.
DANA BASH: I think that what I have talked to scientists and doctors about is —
RFK JR.: Can you show me one study?
DANA BASH: Yes, I can.
RFK JR.: That shows that children were protected by the COVID vaccine.
DANA BASH: I can tell you that there are more good than harm to children.
RFK JR.: Can you show me one study that shows that?
DANA BASH: I can tell you that when it comes to the vaccine, there have been studies that show that because of vaccine disinformation, there could have been 100,000 to 200,000 lives in the U.S. saved. But because people didn’t get the vaccine, that’s why. I’m not saying that it entirely —
RFK JR.: You are saying nonsense. You are saying something that you cannot show me a single study that shows that.
DANA BASH: I am not saying nonsense.
RFK JR.: You are talking what —
DANA BASH: Excuse me.
RFK JR.: Somebody told you.
DANA BASH: Excuse me.
RFK JR.: Cite me the study. What study?
DANA BASH: No, what studies are you talking about? You’re talking about studies that actually don’t exist. I want to talk about —
RFK JR.: Cite me the study that you’re talking about.
DANA BASH: I am not here to defend —
RFK JR.: You say you see the studies, cite me the study.
DANA BASH: This is not productive. I am not here to defend all of the practices.
RFK JR.: You’re talking nonsense. You’re making assertions you can’t support. And then when I call you on them, you’re telling me I’m arguing with you.
DANA BASH: Okay, do you want to talk about assertions that you can’t support? I’ll get there in a second. Let me just say for the record that I am not saying that the entire way that the COVID reaction was accurate. It was a scary time and people made mistakes. Absolutely.
RFK JR.: You were scaring people.
DANA BASH: Why are you saying that?
RFK JR.: Because that was the job of CNN. Was to put the sirens up about how many people are —
DANA BASH: We were trying to be — we were listening to the leaders in this country, including the president, who had a daily press conference explaining what was going on and trying to listen.
RFK JR.: Were you listening?
The Measles Outbreak: Responsibility and Response
DANA BASH: I want to talk about measles, actually. Measles cases in the U.S. just reached a 35-year high, the second record-breaking year in a row. 93% of these cases are among the unvaccinated. The outbreak is happening on your watch. And even before becoming HHS Secretary, for years, you have been one of the leading voices questioning the efficacy of vaccines. Do you accept some responsibility for this measles outbreak?
RFK JR.: Absolutely not. First of all, this is an international outbreak — and we’re doing better at handling it than any country in the world. Mexico has 15 times the amount of measles per capita that we have. Canada has 4 times the amount of measles. England has 2 times the amount of measles. Did I cause those measles outbreaks?
DANA BASH: You’re the most famous —
RFK JR.: Did I cause 137,000 cases?
DANA BASH: You’re the most famous vaccine skeptic on the planet.
RFK JR.: Let me tell you, because actually Anthony Fauci in his diaries answers the question about why we’re having a measles outbreak right now. The reason we’re having a measles outbreak is because of the COVID lockdowns — because children during that period did not get vaccinated. And in his diaries, he says this is going to cause massive outbreaks of measles and more children — he says this — are going to die. Let me finish, because you could accuse me of something. Now let me —
DANA BASH: No, I didn’t. I asked you a question.
RFK JR.: Yeah, let me give you the answer. He says in his diaries more children are going to die from measles because of these lockdowns than COVID. So if you want to know, in that age group that should have got the MMR when they were 18 months and didn’t get it, they’re the ones being infected.
The people in this country — and we have stopped the outbreaks at record speed in South Carolina and Texas and Utah and Virginia. We’ve done better than any country in the world. I dispatch immediately the epidemic intelligence services to those states. I get on the phone with the governor and we stop them in their tracks. Nobody else has been able to do that.
DANA BASH: You have a bully pulpit.
RFK JR.: Let me tell you just one last thing.
DANA BASH: Go ahead.
RFK JR.: The communities that are suffering from measles are almost all religious communities that just don’t vaccinate. The Mennonites have not vaccinated since 1796, since Edward Jenner invented the smallpox vaccine. It’s hard to blame that. I mean, as much as you want to blame —
DANA BASH: No, I don’t want to blame you. I’m asking you because you have a very powerful voice on these issues for people who are skeptical. In fact, let me finish.
RFK JR.: Let me finish. I’ve never questioned the efficacy of the MMR vaccine. Okay, let me finish. Of course.
DANA BASH: What I want you to do is please use your bully pulpit to right now, as we’re getting close to back to school, say — are you willing to say to parents who have not vaccinated their kids that they should vaccinate their kids for measles because it is safe and it will help them save their children’s lives?
Vaccines, Autism, and Food Safety
RFK JR.: I, we tell people on my websites, my public—
DANA BASH: Right now, look into the camera—
RFK JR.: that parents should get their children vaccinated for measles. A measles vaccine is effective. It stops measles in about 97% of the cases. People should get vaccinated.
The Vaccine-Autism Debate
DANA BASH: Can I ask you, the Wall Street Journal reported that the president is pressuring you to conduct studies probing the link between vaccines and autism. Is that true?
RFK JR.: Did you say probing the link?
DANA BASH: That what— I’m just quoting the Wall Street Journal, that the president wants you to go further to probe the link between autism and vaccines?
RFK JR.: He certainly does.
DANA BASH: Okay. Now, have you talked to him about medical research that have studied this for 25 years and found no link between autism and vaccines? And, and just— this is my question here because I don’t want to litigate that. My question is, why not? Because you are HHS Secretary now. Why not study what could cause autism, which scientists do believe starts with fetal brain development? Why not do some studies on that, whether there’s— you’re an environmental lawyer— whether there are environmental factors that go into contributing to a predisposed genetic situation?
RFK JR.: Well, let me say this first. We’re doing all those things, and that’s one of the ways that we found Tylenol. There’s 73 studies out there and linked Tylenol exposure during later pregnancy and during the perinatal period to autism onset. But you are wrong when you say that this issue has been studied. It has been studied, and you’re rolling your eyes.
DANA BASH: I am because I don’t want— I don’t want to have you use our air to say this. There have been more than 40 studies involving 5.6 million people to conclude there is no link between vaccines and autism. This is the head of the Committee of Infectious Diseases for the American Academy of Pediatrics.
RFK JR.: Well, let me tell you what the Institute of Medicine says, which is the National Academy of Sciences, which is the ultimate arbiter on vaccine safety, and which does not have an interest in this debate. It says that none of the 8 vaccines that are administered during the first 6 months of life have ever been studied for relationship to autism.
It found 2 studies, one on the DTP vaccine that showed that it does cause autism, and one on the hepatitis B vaccine that again suggests that it does cause autism. The Institute of Medicine dismissed those 2 studies because they were based on CDC’s database. The studies that you’re referring to are all for one vaccine, the MMR vaccine, or one ingredient, thimerosal.
DANA BASH: So you are using— you are actually looking at— you’re starting new studies to try to link autism, but you’re also telling me—
RFK JR.: I’m not trying to link autism to anything. I’m trying to find out why has autism gone up so much?
DANA BASH: Are you also trying to find out how it interacts with people’s DNA, what’s predisposed, to have an autistic child? Are you doing both?
RFK JR.: Yeah, but, but Dana, you probably don’t understand this because you’re not a scientist, but you’re not either. Genes don’t cause—
DANA BASH: I understand genes provide a vulnerability. A gene provides environmental— that’s what I’m asking. Are you studying the environment?
RFK JR.: We’re looking at all the different environmental exposures, but your statement— you have been fooled. Your statement that this has been studied is not true. It’s categorically not true. It is considered—
DANA BASH: It is considered— considered by who? By every scientist who has studied this.
RFK JR.: That is not true. I can give you hundreds of scientists who have looked at this.
DANA BASH: So on the one hand, you are— do you understand why people aren’t getting—
RFK JR.: National Academy of Sciences. What greater authority?
DANA BASH: Do you understand why people are not getting measles vaccines? Because they’re hearing you say that it could cause autism.
RFK JR.: You’re trying to change the subject.
DANA BASH: I’m not. It’s very much related.
RFK JR.: Show me one of the studies that’s been done on the first 8 vaccines during the first 6 months of life. You will not find them. The National Academy of Sciences—
DANA BASH: So if that’s the case, then why are you telling people to get the measles vaccine?
RFK JR.: Because that is one of the vaccines that has been studied.
DANA BASH: Okay.
RFK JR.: It’s the only one that has been studied.
DANA BASH: Do you want people to get the MMR vaccine?
RFK JR.: Yeah, I said that already. Okay, so I know you’re flustered now, and it is—
DANA BASH: I don’t— I’m not flustered at all because I am frustrated. And honestly, the reason I’m frustrated is because you are the HHS Secretary, and you are talking about things that lead to vaccine hesitancy in this country. And it is something that causes problems for people. I mean, when there is not anything—
RFK JR.: Let me ask you something. Do you see your job as ending vaccine hesitancy, or do you see your job as telling the truth to the American people?
DANA BASH: I see my job as telling the truth. And the truth is that there is study after study after study. It’s one of the most studied things out there in science.
RFK JR.: And it is this— you’re repeating it like a parrot. I’ve actually read the science. You don’t want to hear and debate this.
DANA BASH: I’m not debating this with you.
RFK JR.: Of course you are.
DANA BASH: No, because I’m not—
RFK JR.: All you know how to do is repeat things that people told you and say “trust the experts.” That’s what you did during COVID. Now we know that Anthony Fauci, who was the expert, was lying about everything— about masks, about social distancing, about natural immunity, about the transmission from the vaccine, about the source of COVID. He was lying and you were punishing people for not trusting the experts. And now you’re rolling out the experts again to talk about something that you have no personal knowledge of.
DANA BASH: Okay. Well, guess what? That is my job, to talk to people.
RFK JR.: Your job is to—
DANA BASH: Am I allowed to talk to the American public? Yes. And my job is to get as much information as I can. And what we were doing— what we were doing—
RFK JR.: Skepticism—
DANA BASH: What we were doing in COVID and, and still with regard to these vaccines is getting the best information, the best science that we can, and putting it out there. And sir, what you are doing is causing information to be out there that is not accurate.
RFK JR.: Who is lying to you?
DANA BASH: National Academy of Sciences, which you just cited in November, said “we support the statement that vaccines do not cause autism.” This is the National Academy of Sciences that you just talked about.
RFK JR.: Look at the National Academy of Sciences’ most recent report.
MAHA Movement and Food Safety Reforms
DANA BASH: Okay. And you’ll see— I want to ask you one other question because it’s something that really did help Donald Trump get elected, and that is the MAHA movement and specifically the question of processed foods. And the fact that people want to feel that their food is safe. My understanding is that you are pushing for reforms on food safety and ultra-processed foods that have been slowed, in some cases blocked, by people in the administration who are working on behalf of the industry. Is that true?
RFK JR.: No, that is not true.
DANA BASH: So you feel that you’ll be able to get these reforms done without any problems?
RFK JR.: I think the 2 big reforms that you’re probably talking about is ultra-processed food definition.
DANA BASH: Exactly.
RFK JR.: And the GRAS standards.
DANA BASH: Yes.
RFK JR.: They’ve both gone through extensive interagency process. I’m very confident that we will get them both out there within probably a month.
DANA BASH: Well, I’m sorry that this— and that’s good news for people who are very— moms, and I’m one of them, who are very worried about making sure that our kids eat food and we eat food that is healthy. I’m sorry that this turned into a very contentious conversation. And my job is to try to get the best information out there. And it does concern me when you come in and say things that have— I take what you’re saying have been— yeah, people who have scientific backgrounds, and who I know have tried to talk to you as well. Thank you for coming in.
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