Transcript: Taylor Swift’s Interview on New Heights Podcast

It was… At first, when I looked at it, I was like, this dude is…

TRAVIS KELCE: That’s what it does when you’re on the stage and you perform in Arrowhead. That’s what it is.

TAYLOR SWIFT: This dude didn’t get a meet and greet. He’s making it everyone’s problem. That’s what I thought at first, and then I…

TRAVIS KELCE: You come to Arrowhead, I get to meet you. That’s the perk of playing for the Chiefs.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You realize he didn’t even reach out to our management. I was like, when this podcast came out, I was like, did he ever reach out to be, like, in the tents, or did we know he was in the building? He came with Pat, and he thought that because he knows the elevator lady, that he talked to her about just getting down to the works.

JASON KELCE: You just go.

TRAVIS KELCE: And I got denied.

TAYLOR SWIFT: That’s how it works. In 1973, the elevator was just invented. But yeah. But, yeah, he really just was like, “I know a guy. I can figure this out.”

But I actually, when I thought about it, I was like, actually, we live in a day and age where, like, I’m not a very… I’m not an online person at all. Not, like, on social media like that. Like, I’m genuinely terrified to open my DMs. It’s just like… It’s just like, it’s about it. I just… There’s smoke coming out of my DMs. Like, I don’t want to go near that.

JASON KELCE: I don’t know what, you want somebody to go through it? I’ll go through it just because I’ll laugh my ass off.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It’s like, if you have, like, 20 million unread DMs, you’re, like, entertained. So this kind of felt more like I was in an 80s John Hughes movie, and he was just, like, standing outside of my window with a boombox, just being like, “I want to date you.”

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, do you want to go on…a date with me? I made you a friendship, but you said, “Do you want to date me?”

TRAVIS KELCE: Just come outside and meet me. Just meet me once.

JASON KELCE: Just give me a chance.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I was like, if this guy isn’t crazy, which is a big if, this is sort of what I’ve been writing songs about wanting to happen to me since I was a teenager.

TRAVIS KELCE: And I was sitting there at the Eras tour listening to every single one of those songs. Like, she… I know what she wants me to do.

JASON KELCE: I feel that that’s a…

TRAVIS KELCE: That’s exactly what she wants me to do.

TAYLOR SWIFT: She’s like, this is just her wish list of like, “Meet me, please.”

TRAVIS KELCE: Now I’m butthurt.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. I’m upset that you didn’t meet me even though you didn’t know I wanted to meet you because I didn’t do any proper logistical planning.

TRAVIS KELCE: Who plans?

JASON KELCE: Typical Kelce. Typical Kelce.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It was wild. It was wild, but it worked. I’m glad it worked. I’m just circling back to New Heights to say thank you for… for this. Look at this.

TRAVIS KELCE: I’m the luckiest man in the world.

TAYLOR SWIFT: So. Yeah.

TRAVIS KELCE: And thank you to New Heights. All the editing, Jake, thank you for putting that on social media and letting…

How Did She Know He Wasn’t Crazy?

JASON KELCE: It do its before we move on. What? How did you know he wasn’t crazy? Because that’s the other side of that, right? Like a guy goes up there and professes his love for you. Either one. It’s like, this could be the most romantic thing in the world.

TRAVIS KELCE: It’s also be like crazy about somebody.

TAYLOR SWIFT: He is crazy.

JASON KELCE: I mean, but there’s a… There’s a right crazy.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, he’s the good kind of crazy. And I knew that he wasn’t crazy the first couple of times that we talked. I was just like, he’s truly, like, he’s truly getting to know me in a way that’s very natural, very pure, very normal.

Also, just the way that he could make me laugh so immediately about normal things. Travis is like, he’s just a vibe booster in everyone’s life that he’s in. He’s like a human exclamation point. You know, he’s like when you take a picture on your phone and you put the, like you push the enhanced color button, that’s like what you do.

TRAVIS KELCE: That’s why when I text, I just… I’m always exclamation points.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I use so many more exclamation points now. But I think it was just like you also, you were so… You’re so non-judgmental about people and you were not judgmental about the fact that I knew nothing about the world you were in.

TRAVIS KELCE: It was the best.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You were nice. You were so nice.

TRAVIS KELCE: I got a clean slate.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You were like, thanks.

JASON KELCE: She doesn’t know any of my bandits.

TRAVIS KELCE: Are you kidding me?

Learning About Football

TAYLOR SWIFT: Jason, on our first date, I literally… I legitimately asked him what it was like when the Chiefs played the Eagles in the Super Bowl. And he looked across the field, across the line of scrimmage and saw his brother standing on the other, like, five feet in front of him on the field.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And he was like, he was… And he didn’t even… He didn’t even look at me. Like, I now know what an insane question that was. He was like, “Actually, I’m on the offense and my brother’s on the offense, and I’m only on the field at the same time as the defense.” I thought everyone was out there.

JASON KELCE: Same time.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I thought… I thought that the quarterback…

TRAVIS KELCE: I mean, that’s how you played it on the… On the playground growing up. So I understand if you hadn’t, like…

TAYLOR SWIFT: No, you don’t understand. I thought it was like, Jared Goff is here and Josh Allen’s here, and they’re going to be like… They blow a whistle and then they… They go at each other and they’re like, “Who’s going to win?”

TRAVIS KELCE: That’s actually…

JASON KELCE: I would love to see Jared Goff play some defense. Let’s see Jared Goff on defense.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Got some ideas. I’ve got some thoughts. Yeah. I didn’t know what a first down was. I didn’t know what the chains were. I didn’t know what a tight end was.

Reclaiming Her Masters

TRAVIS KELCE: I am forever thankful for you diving into the football world wholeheartedly.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Oh, my God. I fell in love with it. I became obsessed with it. I became a person who was running through the halls of my house screaming, “We drafted Xavier Worthy!” And my friends are like, “What is… Who body snatched you? This is… What do you mean? We drafted Xavier Worthy?”

TRAVIS KELCE: I forget where I was, but you were the first person to tell me that we drafted him. You were screeching in the draft.

TAYLOR SWIFT: No, I was screeching. I couldn’t believe it. I was freaking out.

TRAVIS KELCE: I’m like, “Wait, did she… She write…” I had to look this up. I’m like, “Did she get the wrong information here?” But yeah, we traded up.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, we’re talking about Cover Two, Cover Four, Cover Zero, Man Cover. We’re talking… We’re learning. I continue to learn.

TRAVIS KELCE: Maybe somebody else that even knows what those coverages are.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. I’m not ready to be an analyst right now, but give me 16 months.

JASON KELCE: You’re going to pick up on it. I’m telling you, you would ask some of the best questions when we were up in the booth. Your desire to learn more, but your genuine excitement around it as well as your competitiveness.

TRAVIS KELCE: She’s not messing around.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Oh, my God.

TRAVIS KELCE: She’s not messing around.

The Journey to Ownership

JASON KELCE: Reclaiming masters. You want to…

TRAVIS KELCE: Let’s tee it up. One of my favorite things this summer was Taylor reclaiming her masters. Her recording of her first six albums finally became hers.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah.

TRAVIS KELCE: And you haven’t really talked about it. You made that beautiful post on all your social channels thanking everyone that made it happen and everything. But why don’t you tell the 92 percenters how it really felt?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Oh, wow. So to catch anyone up who doesn’t know about this saga, I signed a record deal when I was 15, and I always kind of refer to it as “I got my music back this summer,” but I never owned my music at all. So traditionally, a lot of record deals are set up in a way that artists don’t own what’s called their master recordings.

Owning your master recordings means that you have complete control and power over distribution, licensing, and essentially the way your legacy is shaped. It’s a huge thing. It’s always been a huge thing for me. Since I was a teenager, I’ve been actively saving up money to buy my music back and to ever own it in the first place, because it’s usually the label that owns it.

But I’ve always wanted this to happen. So my music has been sold a few times. The first time that it was sold, it really ripped my heart out of my chest. And I told everybody exactly how that felt for me and what I was going through. And I started basically defiantly re-recording my music because I wanted to own it. And this was the only way I thought it was ever going to happen.

TRAVIS KELCE: I knew she had a bad kid. She’s got a little bit of a bad kid.

JASON KELCE: Yeah, that’s not a bad kid. That’s a savvy kid.

TRAVIS KELCE: That’s just… That’s like, “Hey, I’ve been told I’ve been defiant a lot of times.”

JASON KELCE: You’re very defiant.

TRAVIS KELCE: Insubordinate, Travis.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Insubordinate. Yeah. I think for me, you know, that was the closest I ever thought I would get to owning my music. So re-recording my music, it was so exciting to get to have that opportunity, but there was still… I thought about not owning my music every day. It was something that I never was… It’s like an intrusive thought that I had every day.

And so we do the Eras Tour. After the Eras Tour, I had a meeting with my team and we decided this might be a good time to approach the current owners of it. The owners of it was a private equity firm called Shamrock Capital. I knew them to be above board people. They had been very friendly to us.

What I was looking to do, though, was I wanted to buy my music outright. I don’t want to be in a partnership. I don’t want to own 30% of it. I want it. I want to own all of it.

TRAVIS KELCE: And you deserve that.

TAYLOR SWIFT: But it was a long shot to think that they would do that, that they would sell that asset to me.

JASON KELCE: It’s a big asset.

Leading with Heart

TAYLOR SWIFT: It’s a huge decision for them to make to sell that to anyone, including me. I decided that rather than this be a business conversation… I’m in the business of human emotion. I would so much rather lead heart first in something like this. Because for me, this is not, “Oh, I want to own this asset because of its returns,” because of the dividends that I will receive over the years.

This was, “I want it because this is my handwritten diary entries from my whole life.” These are the songs I wrote about every phase of my life. This is my photography, my music videos, most of which I funded, you know, my artwork. Everything that I’ve ever done is in this catalog.

And so rather than send lawyers or management in a big crew, I sent my mom and my brother, who I work with, to LA and they… Sorry, they sat down and they… I don’t ever really talk about it because it’s… They sat down with Shamrock Capital and they told them what this meant for me. They told them the whole story of all the times we’ve tried to buy it, all the times it’s fallen through, all the times we had gotten plans together and figured out something we thought was going to work and it didn’t at the last minute.

And so my mom calls me afterwards, she’s like, “Look, you know, they were wonderful. They heard us out. We have no idea which way they’re going to go with this.” And so I was like, “I get it, I get it. I haven’t gotten my hopes up about this in a decade.”

And so it was a couple months after the Super Bowl, we’re in Kansas City, and I get a call from my mom, and she’s like, “You got your music.” And so sorry that this is… It’s literally been so long since this happened. Every time I talk about it, she was like, “You got your music.”

And I just very dramatically hit the floor for real. Honestly just started bawling my eyes out. And I’m just weeping and kind of unable… I was just really… “Really? Are you really, really? What do you mean? What do you mean?” I’m like, “Get yourself together. Get your shit together.” Just go tell Travis in a normal way.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And I knock on the door, he’s playing video games, and I’m trying to say it in a normal way, and…

JASON KELCE: Travis, oh, no.

TRAVIS KELCE: What just happened? What just happened?

TAYLOR SWIFT: And he’s like… He puts his headset down. He’s like, “Guys, got to go.” And I think he thought something was wrong. And you come up and I’m just like, “I got all my music back.” And then just start absolutely heaving.

TRAVIS KELCE: Just dead weight. Just dead weight. Literally dropped.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Had no power in my life to support myself. And yeah, this changed my life. I can’t believe it. Still, every time I think about it, it’s like, I have to tell the short version to everyone because it is still… This will affect the rest of my life.

I think about this every day now. But instead of it being an intrusive thought that hurt me, it’s, “I can’t believe this happened.” How lucky am I? How grateful am I? I’m so grateful to the artists that helped me with my re-records, because when I did my re-records, I started doing those in 2021, and a lot of most of the industry trades were like, “This is a bad idea. This is her sort of derailing her career in a way. Nobody’s interested in you doing the same album twice. Fans are not going to be engaged with this. This is not going to go well for her.”

TRAVIS KELCE: Somebody knew, though.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And it was like, I still was able to reach out to friends of mine like Phoebe Bridgers, Keith Urban, Maren Morris, Chris Stapleton, you know, Hayley Williams from Paramore, Fall Out Boy. All these absolutely incredible artists that shape who I am as an artist. And they agreed to be a part of the re-records.

And I… You know, one of the only people I told before this happened was… I called Phoebe Bridgers and I was just like… And she’s like, “I think you just… Did you just say what I think you said?” And so this has just been… It was just… I’m so grateful for it. It’s just unbelievable. And I was so happy you were there when that happened.

TRAVIS KELCE: I mean, I was…

TAYLOR SWIFT: Because I could not stand.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah. I mean, I started crying, too, you know.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You were weeping.

TRAVIS KELCE: I was. I’m just so happy for you because I see what… I’ve seen how you make music. I’ve seen how you make these videos, seen the effort and the focus and the strategy behind what just one album in Tortured Poets Department and in Fortnight. And I was blown away that you had been doing this your entire life.

And for, you know, your first six albums, you weren’t given the rights to all of that. And I know what that looked like, and I know how much it burned you that you didn’t have that and you didn’t have your creation. And I just… I think doing it the right way, creating the fan base that you did the right way and leading your life in a direction that you were eventually going to get it back somehow, some way, because of you always doing things with the right intentions.

Understanding Music Ownership

JASON KELCE: So how… I guess, how does music ownership… This is so crazy to me. So you wrote these songs, you sang these songs, you put everything into them. And don’t get me wrong, there’s publishing companies of people that support artists out there, but…

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah.

JASON KELCE: How does ownership of music even work? When you recorded these songs when you were 16, right?

TRAVIS KELCE: Dumb it down to us 95%.

JASON KELCE: The singer gets a certain portion, the artist gets a certain portion, and then the publishing company gets a certain portion.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Okay, so this is… That’s a great question. And there’s two main categories, so…

TRAVIS KELCE: Good.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I don’t even know what you just asked.

TRAVIS KELCE: Go ahead.

TAYLOR SWIFT: So Master Recordings is the actual recording. It’s the actual vocal, band, production, mixing, mastering, that actual thing.

JASON KELCE: Yes.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Mine also included my album artwork, my music videos, everything that went along with any era of music that I had done for my first six albums.

TRAVIS KELCE: Every era.

TAYLOR SWIFT: So then there’s also… Then there’s another category, which is publishing. I own my publishing, which is why, you know, I have control over, you know, if my song is used in a film and I wanted them to use Taylor’s Version instead of the original version, the songwriter can decide that.

JASON KELCE: Got it. Okay.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You know, and so it’s like, I basically… I’ve always been very lucky because my publishing was protected. A lot of artists have their publishing sold away from them or they sell their publishing. And I, you know, and a lot of artists, it may not be important to them. It was always important for me.

The publishing aspect of it has always been something I’ve had firmly in place, which is great because my songwriting is the core of why I do this, why I love it so much, and what I think has made anything happen in my career at all.

TRAVIS KELCE: Greatest songwriter of all time.

Reclaiming Her Masters

TAYLOR SWIFT: That’s very nice of you to say that. It’s like says her boyfriend, says a lot of people. Basically then you have the master recordings side of things. Now this is a discussion that was not really brought up amongst the artist communities, especially not with fans. This was all kind of industry centric and kind of boring contract stuff that like fans were not speaking about.

And so one thing that I think is really great that has come about because of this is that I have so many new artists come up to me now and say, hey, I didn’t even know this was a thing. And when I went to go and negotiate for my record deal, I negotiated to have my masters revert back to me after a certain amount of years or that I own them outright.

And it’s not for everyone, not everyone cares about this artist to artist. Artists have different priorities. Some artists sell off all their masters because everyone’s allowed to have their own priorities. What I wanted though, is that if I were to put the information out about what I went through, at least it gets artists talking about this to decide whether this is a priority for them. Because you can’t know if it’s a priority for you unless you know what has come before you and what has happened.

And so the master recordings thing, that’s your actual ownership of your recordings. To put it in perspective, if I never would have been able to buy back my music, one day, someone else would be leaving all of my music from my first six albums to their kids in their will. Right?

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And you think about it like that. It’s like I thought of it, I made it, I recorded it, I paid for most of those music videos. You know, I wanted an opportunity to buy that back and that was important to me.

JASON KELCE: You feel like they’re yours, they should be yours.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, exactly.

JASON KELCE: Do you think it was easier for you to do one because you’re, I mean, just you talking about this, you’re so aware of the business side of this. In the legal ramp of like, you’re more aware than I think probably most artists are, but smartest women in the world. It’s crazy. Being a songwriter.

TRAVIS KELCE: Smartest woman in the world, you being.

JASON KELCE: The songwriter, being the singer, owning the publishing rights, being able to re-record songs, that gave you leverage and able to make this move, right?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yes.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yes. So that was. And also, you know, in my contract, they didn’t put a clause in that said I couldn’t re-record because nobody was doing it and nobody thought that was a good idea. Right, so. And also, who would be that stubborn? Who would be that petty, this badass.

JASON KELCE: Kid over here that they would record.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Every single single thing? It’s so badass, over and over again.

TRAVIS KELCE: What was your favorite one?

JASON KELCE: Not just that. Hold on, though. But not just that. Who has a fan base that’s going to listen to the same album twice in a row?

TAYLOR SWIFT: It’s a good point, Jason.

JASON KELCE: It’s a good point, honestly. And this is where they missed it.

TRAVIS KELCE: You had 1989. I’ll listen to that.

TAYLOR SWIFT: That’s the thing is the fans told.

JASON KELCE: A story with the second time you released this album, right? And the fans got behind that narrative and they’re like, screw the first album. We’re rolling with the re-recorded album because we’re supporting the artist.

TAYLOR SWIFT: They were like, cried at dawn and it was amazing because they’re the reason why the re-records worked out. They’re the reason I was able to purchase my music back because they came to the Eras tour and basically they’re the reason why any of this worked out.

And I also want to note that the other people who are like, we ride at dawn, my live band, they played on all the re-records. It’s like, you want to know why they sound so perfect on the Eras tour, they played on all those records. They’re session musicians too. And that’s how good they are. And I’m so impressed just by their ability and their dexterity as musicians to be able to do that so convincingly, because there are actually some. There’s the Taylor’s versions one. I kind of refer a lot of that stuff. I think it sounds incredible, but I’m happy to have all of it.

Choosing Between Versions

JASON KELCE: So that leads me to the next question. Tay, now that you own all of it, you have the re-recordings, you have the original recordings. What should we listen to? What do I do? I roll? Doesn’t matter. You’re just like, whatever you guys want.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, it’s really whatever you guys want. Because I love both of them. I would not have put out the re-records if I didn’t think that they held up or were better. I think a lot of the vocals I did on the re-records are better than the originals.

JASON KELCE: Okay.

TAYLOR SWIFT: But it’s like if you found a nostalgia in the originals and that was what you were listening to when you were 12 years old, bopping around in your bedroom, go crazy. Yeah, we got them all.

JASON KELCE: I’m going to start doing comparisons. That’s what I got to do. I just got to start doing comparisons.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah, you got to listen to every beat.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You’re certainly not mandatory, Jason.

JASON KELCE: I mean, it sounds like a good time.

TRAVIS KELCE: I’ll say this. There’s a few good playlists out there that have a mixture of them all.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You’ve been streaming. Yes, thank you.

TRAVIS KELCE: I’ve been streaming for about two years.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Oh, that’s fantastic. Thank you so much. That’s why we got that spike in the 35 year old male demographic.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yes. That 1.7 billion. That was at least 1 billion for sure.

Favorite Re-Recordings

JASON KELCE: We have one IP address from one iPhone. Continually listening to this. Did you have a favorite album that you re-recorded that, are there different eras that you liked recording more? Re-recording?

TAYLOR SWIFT: I really liked them all, but I think Red was very special. There were songs that I called from the Vault songs, and there was one which I think is maybe my favorite song I’ve ever written called “All Too Well,” the 10 minute version where I unearthed. There were originally so many more verses in that song than ended up being on the album that I had put out.

When I originally put out Red, I made the glorious, fortuitous mistake of saying that to my fans in an interview. You know what those words mean? You’re so handsome. So basically I said that in an interview to my fans and they just hung onto it. They were like, where’s the 10 minute version? Give us the 10 minute version.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And when it came time to doing Taylor’s version and re-recording the album, I went back in, found the verses, restructured the song to the way that it pretty much was when I had originally written it, put them back in. And that song is one of my favorite things I’ve ever done.

And it was. We were on the Eras tour. I’m watching people just cathartically scream this song to the point where I’m like, do you need to go to the hospital? It was so passionate. The fan response to that song at the Eras tour. And I remember thinking so many times, what if this never happened? What if I never had?

TRAVIS KELCE: It’s one of the most iconic parts of your tour.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It was so fun and so, yeah, it really did make me fall back in love with that album specifically. I have a song with Phoebe Bridgers that I really love on that, you know, from the Vault. Chris Stapleton was a part of it as well. And I just, I think that one I’ve always loved, Fearless in 1989 in a very pure way. But Red, I’ve kind of gone back and forth over the years and been like, you know, that re-recording, it made me just be like, ah, God, I love that album. I have no complicated feelings about that. Wouldn’t have done anything different maybe, except to include the original verses the first time.

The Eras Tour

JASON KELCE: Well, well, let’s. We just talked about the different eras a little bit. Let’s talk about perhaps the most daunting thing that any artist has ever taken on, which is the Eras tour. You finally finished it up last December in Vancouver. I don’t know. What did it feel like to wrap it up? What does it feel like now? Not touring and being on a jet every day, basically trying to go from country to country?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, I mean, it feels great, Jason, to be honest, I’m not going to lie to you.

JASON KELCE: You don’t miss it?

TAYLOR SWIFT: I miss it. I do miss it, but it’s like it was perfect for what it was. Do you know what I mean? And it was a lot of. It was a lot of physical therapy and it was a lot of being in a state of perpetual physical discomfort. Kind of like when you’re in season, you know?

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah, no, I’m not getting hit by.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Huge 300 pounders, but the heels.

TRAVIS KELCE: No. When I saw the recovery station in the hotel room after with the toe spacers, I got an acupuncture mat. See, I’m telling you, dude, the similarities were crazy. I’m like, oh my gosh, she does more than I do.

TAYLOR SWIFT: We’re comparing physical therapy stories, recovery and stuff.

JASON KELCE: Have you ever tried taping your ankles?

TRAVIS KELCE: We related on how much.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, I miss it because I miss the fans and I miss that connection. But at the same time, it was so special. It was like the most formative time of my life. I learned so much about how far I can push myself and if I set a goal, you know, making that a three and a half hour show in the beginning of the tour. It’s like, you can’t be sick one day and then decide tonight it’s going to be two and a half hours. And it’s really just prioritizing the fans experience before anything else. And my fellow.

TRAVIS KELCE: Broken heart.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah.

JASON KELCE: Don’t get me started. Dude, don’t you get me started.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Or stomach flu or just aching feet or blisters or whatever. It just was.

TRAVIS KELCE: Which. She had all of this going through.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And it’s like, at the same time.

TRAVIS KELCE: Going into her fourth show. Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And it’s just. It was kind of the coolest thing in the world because when we were putting together this tour, I had some really lofty goals I wanted to reach conceptually, because I wanted to show. I wanted to show fans and especially younger fans, visuals and sort of performance art references that were really important to me as a kid and what inspired me to want to do this right. So I wanted to put elements of musical theater, Broadway, ballet, you know, scenery that you would see in an opera.

TRAVIS KELCE: Kind of thinks, like this.

JASON KELCE: I watched the whole tour. I don’t. I just thought it was amazing.

The Eras Tour Experience

TAYLOR SWIFT: I didn’t notice, but that’s exactly it. I wanted it to be references that I thought were really high concept and really high value for fans and for them to see things they hadn’t necessarily seen before, all in one concert. But I wanted to do it at the highest intensity, rapid fire. You’re seeing something new every 15 to 30 seconds. And so it feels like you’re scrolling in an algorithm. Right.

And when I heard reports of people saying that they got actual amnesia after the concerts, I was like, oh, I think we did it. Yeah, I think we did it. Nailed it. That’s genuine. I wasn’t even shooting for that goal. When they’re like, I saw so many things, and I experienced a state of euphoria that I now don’t remember what happened to me. I was like, oh, my God.

TRAVIS KELCE: All I remember is that she didn’t want to meet me. That’s it.

TAYLOR SWIFT: That’s it. That’s all. That’s all he got about.

TRAVIS KELCE: And as much as you and I’ve told you this, as much as you want to give New Heights credit, I give the Eras Tour credit.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah.

TRAVIS KELCE: I give the Eras Tour credit, because if I would have never gone to that show and been mesmerized and just been captivated.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TRAVIS KELCE: And then left with such a desire to want to meet you, I would have never went on here and told everybody how butthurt I was. Yeah. I had never just been so engulfed in the curiosity of who you were.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Oh, that’s.

JASON KELCE: Look at this.

TRAVIS KELCE: I really.

JASON KELCE: One of the best things about that last statement is you didn’t even know what the word engulf meant before you met Taylor. This is, you’ve broadened your horizons so much.

TRAVIS KELCE: We’re the perfect. I’m telling you, it’s so. She makes me so much better.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Thank you for saying that. Thank you for saying that.

Meeting Taylor

TRAVIS KELCE: But it’s like, you see you on the stage, and you see how crazy you can get an entire stadium going, and then I get you in a room, and it’s like I’ve known you forever. It’s like it was just the easiest conversation I ever had, and it was just so much fun that it just knocked my socks off from what they say.

JASON KELCE: Knocked your socks off?

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Thank you. That’s.

TRAVIS KELCE: I felt she blew me away. And I had never experienced something so mesmerizing on stage and then so real and so beautiful in person.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Hey, that’s.

JASON KELCE: Should I leave?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, I think so. Honestly, at this point, I think everyone should leave.

JASON KELCE: I don’t know where to go from here.

TRAVIS KELCE: Now.

Touring the World

JASON KELCE: How many countries did you do the Eras Tour in?

TAYLOR SWIFT: 47,000 countries.

TRAVIS KELCE: Jason, you just listed that in the beginning.

JASON KELCE: Well, I said 51 cities, which I don’t know if that’s right.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It was a lot of countries. What was really fun about all the countries that we went to is when we first started dating, he was like, I always wanted to go and really vacation in Europe and see Australia and go to Asia. And I was like, well, I got a tour for that. It’s coming up.

TRAVIS KELCE: Nice. You got room for a 6’5″ guy?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, we can figure it out. The dimensions are wild, but we’ll make some room. I think we’ll have to leave some equipment.

TRAVIS KELCE: Trunks behind.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Thank you for accommodating the size, but absolutely. We’d be happy to have you. And we got to travel the world and have vacations and adventures when I wasn’t on stage, which was really. Europe was so fun. Australia’s amazing. Yeah. Yeah, it was great.

And that entire part of our lives, I was on tour for so long, and now I finally am not on tour. And it’s kind of great because I’m getting my hobbies back. When I was on tour, all I had the bandwidth for was, what’s the acoustic mashup this week? How do I say welcome to the Eras Tour in Portuguese? That was the only thing taking up my brain space. And now it’s.

Life After Tour

TRAVIS KELCE: It’s been so fun to see what Taylor actually gets into around the house.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It’s like, I’d say all my hobbies could be categorized as hobbies you could have had in the 1700s. I get all my granny shit.

JASON KELCE: You enjoy doing all of these homey things. That’s basically what you’re saying.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, I like to sew, I specialize, as you know, in children’s purses and baby blankets. I make two things, you know that very well.

TRAVIS KELCE: I’m very good at these two things.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I love to paint. I love to cook. I have a different baking obsession every six months.

TRAVIS KELCE: I am the luckiest man in the world right now.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Right now. We’re very deep in a sourdough obsession that escaped me from my life.

JASON KELCE: I am aware, and I’m very deep in it now. You’ve got me deep in this. I’m lucky.

TRAVIS KELCE: I’m lucky. I’m working as much as I am. I’m running as much as I am because I’m getting the caloric intake.

The Sourdough Obsession

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. I send him two loaves of sourdough at training camp. I’m wrapping sourdough loaves in Saran Wrap or whatever cling film. The sourdough’s taken over my life in a huge way. I’m really talking about bread 60% of the time now. It’s become a huge, huge factor.

TRAVIS KELCE: I mean, and she’s getting good with making all these different versions of it.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Oh, yeah.

TRAVIS KELCE: My favorite one is probably, I mean, the regular sourdough is one of my favorites, but the blueberry.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, we do. There’s a blueberry lemon. There’s cinnamon swirl, cinnamon raisin. And this one I’ve been workshopping for the girls because they love everything rainbow, funfetti sourdough.

JASON KELCE: Oh, my gosh. It’s going to blow their mind.

TAYLOR SWIFT: No, it will, because they love sprinkles. We put sprinkles in everything when we hang out. Yeah, it’s really.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah, she’s a loafer for life now.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. And it’s gotten pretty crazy over here. I’m just always baking bread and texting my friends and being like, can I send you some bread. I need some feedback. Do you like this one better than you liked the other one? I did the rise a little differently. I’m on sourdough blogs. There’s a whole community of us, and I didn’t know it.

TRAVIS KELCE: Oh, my gosh.

TAYLOR SWIFT: This is an online.

TRAVIS KELCE: The amount of people hoping that you’re on their blog.

JASON KELCE: Oh, I’m on your blog, girl.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I’m on your blog. But it’s like, I just didn’t know this. There’s people like me out there, and this is where the Internet is good. This is where the Internet is a good place where you can curate a reality where all I really use the Internet for is sourdough. And when Travis shows me videos of otters on his Instagram algorithm, I want a wild.

The Otter Dream

TRAVIS KELCE: I want a wild otter so bad. I just want to find these little creatures.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, he doesn’t. But he wants.

JASON KELCE: Why a wild one? Why wouldn’t you? Aren’t they all wild?

TRAVIS KELCE: Oh, no, there’s domestic.

TAYLOR SWIFT: He wants one specifically whose life he saved. Who knows that he saved himself. It’s a really specific type of otter he’s looking for.

TRAVIS KELCE: The videos that I watch are somebody just in a canoe.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. He doesn’t want to go up to an otter and take it from its mother. He wants to see an otter. And the otter’s like, my paw, Todd. Michelle. And he’s like, I got you. And then the otter’s like, thank you forever with its little paws.

TRAVIS KELCE: And I just bring him anchovies every.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Time it swims up. And then it’s, you’re kayaking and it’s doing this to you. That’s what he wants. And I want it, too. Honestly, who doesn’t?

JASON KELCE: Yeah. I mean, who doesn’t?

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Right?

JASON KELCE: Yeah. So, I mean, do otters eat bread? Can we get a sourdough eating otter? That might be.

TAYLOR SWIFT: We’re going to figure that.

TRAVIS KELCE: I don’t know if.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I don’t know if they do.

JASON KELCE: They’re probably.

TAYLOR SWIFT: But yeah, we had discussed maybe carrying around cans of sardines just in case we run into one.

JASON KELCE: Nice.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It’s easier in principle than it is in practice. Easier to conceptualize. Pretty easy, though.

TRAVIS KELCE: You just got to go canoeing, which is.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Also easier in principle than it is in practice for us in terms of just the weight balance.

TRAVIS KELCE: I’m on the hunt for a friend.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. Stuff you didn’t know you needed to know, right, Jason?

JASON KELCE: I mean, I love otters. I don’t know.

Retirement Life

TRAVIS KELCE: Who doesn’t know what life after Eras Tour is, though? Jason, you got to. It’s.

JASON KELCE: So, I’m retired. I am all in on this. I want to bake. I just don’t have the planning behind it. Taylor’s a planner, and she’s going to have the sourdough alive. We’re not going to keep a sourdough alive. I’ve folded.

TRAVIS KELCE: I’ve. What is it?

TAYLOR SWIFT: I’ve.

TRAVIS KELCE: What’s the.

TAYLOR SWIFT: He’s actually done it. He’s actually done it.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TRAVIS KELCE: I’ve made a loaf. You’ve had one of my loaves.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Actually done. He’s done all of it. We’ve set it up where it’s like, I’ve got a station and he’s got a station and he’s done all of it. So he’s actually baked, too.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah, I’ve stretched and folded before.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah.

JASON KELCE: But there’s just something slightly wrong.

TAYLOR SWIFT: No, his was actually his rose higher than mine. His was more delicious than mine. It’s also, you know.

TRAVIS KELCE: No directions over here, Jason.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I get into the.

TRAVIS KELCE: No chance. Jason, you’ve had it and you said you loved it.

JASON KELCE: I’m not saying it’s not good, but it’s no way as good as Taylor’s.

TAYLOR SWIFT: That’s not true.

JASON KELCE: I’m telling you, if you took two chunks and you sent it off to the lab, there’s going to be so many more germs and microbes.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Oh, my God.

TRAVIS KELCE: Oh.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Ew. The bacteria count.

JASON KELCE: What is the fungus in this? That’s on this one.

TRAVIS KELCE: No, that’s the sour. Jason, don’t even.

JASON KELCE: That’s the sour. Okay.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Why is there chest hair in it? How did you.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah, there’s chest. The apron’s too low.

TAYLOR SWIFT: There’s chest hair in his. There’s cat hair in mine. It’s just both of these are completely inedible. But it’s crazy how you can, how many puns you can make. Because I do the whole, I got bread bags and I got labels, and so it’s, you can really go for it with the puns. You go, are you ready for it?

TRAVIS KELCE: Are you ready?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Flower song is the slamming screen door. That’s horrible. It’s a loaf story, baby. Just say yeast.

JASON KELCE: Just say yeast. Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: What’s. What song?

TRAVIS KELCE: Keep going.

JASON KELCE: It’s a loafster.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I should have said dough. No, it’s horrible. Loafing him was bread. It’s bad. You don’t know that song, and that’s okay.

TRAVIS KELCE: I love you.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It wasn’t on the tour.

Lessons Learned from The Eras Tour

JASON KELCE: So we do have this. I did mess that up. 21 countries. Did you learn anything throughout the tour? Is there anything at the end of the tour when you were wrapping up that you wish you had been doing the whole time? Is there anything you would do differently now that the entire tour is wrapped up?

TAYLOR SWIFT: No. I’m really glad that I didn’t know it would have gone on as long as it did. I’m glad that I got to actually be prepared for this tour the way that I was, because in previous tours, I had noticed that I would get on the tour and I’d have to get my stamina up throughout the tour. And by the way, last quarter of the tour, I’d finally hit my stride, stamina wise, and I’d be like, oh, I can do this easily every night.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I wanted to be at that point at the beginning of the ERAS tour. So that’s why I did so much more training, so much more endurance training and cardio and stuff that doesn’t come naturally because I’m not an athlete. So it’s that stuff I have to really force myself to do.

JASON KELCE: Don’t you say that. Don’t you dare say that.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And I don’t even. It’s not like I say that and it’s disparaging way. I don’t care at all.

JASON KELCE: Why do we take it that way?

TRAVIS KELCE: I don’t know.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, I’m not an athlete. And that’s fine. I play.

TRAVIS KELCE: I take it that way because we’re undefeated on the beer pong table. I’ve seen you throw a football.

TAYLOR SWIFT: No, that’s not good. And you know that’s not good.

TRAVIS KELCE: It does.

TAYLOR SWIFT: No, it does.

TRAVIS KELCE: You can.

TAYLOR SWIFT: No spiral.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yes.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You’ve got to be realistic because it’s not. There’s no spiral. I don’t think I’ve ever caught anything that’s ever been thrown to me.

TRAVIS KELCE: You’re disinterested in being an athlete.

TAYLOR SWIFT: That’s true.

JASON KELCE: Can you hit something with a stick? That’s a telltale sign of an athlete. Good with a stick.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. No. I don’t know, Jason. I’ve never tried that.

JASON KELCE: So it’s like, we’ve got to try this out now.

TRAVIS KELCE: We’re going out back out. Here’s the thing, right?

Growing Up with Music, Not Sports

TAYLOR SWIFT: My relationship with sports was, you know, I grew up in Pennsylvania. I always heard my dad yelling at the screen, watching Eagles games. That was always the sport sounds that I heard in my house. However, I was up in my room playing guitar, learning instruments, playing piano. Just, I was focused on different things.

I was so laser focused on music. And that’s how I was in school. I would go to sporting events so that I could sing the national anthem. Everything was a means to an end to get me to get to do music. I know every halftime show from the Super Bowls, but I didn’t watch the sport. And so watching the Eras tour and…

TRAVIS KELCE: Seeing that power skip, I knew you were an athlete. From the power skip.

TAYLOR SWIFT: That’s. You’re just saying.

TRAVIS KELCE: I knew it. It’s one of my favorite parts to see you just skipping down that runway.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Just looking like a giraffe. That’s limbs were put on all.

TRAVIS KELCE: Not everybody can skip, but not everybody can power skip. That takes athleticism.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Thank you. I appreciate that. What a unique compliment. So, yeah, I definitely became obsessed with sports when it came to him. I’m competitive on his behalf, but if you and me are going to go against each other in something athletic, I’m going to let you win. Because to me, I don’t see why. What did the points even mean?

If I’m doing it, I’m a fan of athletics and the sports. If I’m doing the sports, I’m throwing like this, because I don’t really care if it goes where it’s supposed to go. It doesn’t bother me. And when I’m in the heated battle, I’m not embarrassed.

TRAVIS KELCE: She’s a good teammate, so she’ll give effort. If it’s teamed up, it’s individual sports, she’s not going to care. But if she needs to be held accountable…

TAYLOR SWIFT: If I’m on his team and we’re playing beer pong or something, I’m really trying.

JASON KELCE: You’re in. You’re a team sport.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Because this matters to him, right?

JASON KELCE: Absolutely.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I’m a team.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Put me on an Olympic one person trying to do some stuff sport. I’m doing this.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I don’t care.

JASON KELCE: Getting out of here. Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I’m doing this. I care.

JASON KELCE: Okay.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I’m doing this. I care. This.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Care a lot.

JASON KELCE: We’re doing this. We’re knitting dough.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I don’t care if this happens. I don’t care if this goes here. It’s not part of my metrics for my self worth.

JASON KELCE: All right. That’s probably very healthy, to be honest with you.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Hey, you know, I was like, as long as you’re fine with this.

TRAVIS KELCE: What? No, I’m completely fine with you being an athlete.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, I’m not an athlete. I’m never going to be.

JASON KELCE: You just missed the whole point.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. What he sees what he wants to see and it bodes well for me.

Favorite Moments from The Eras Tour

JASON KELCE: Do you have a favorite thing from the ERAS tour?

TAYLOR SWIFT: I have a lot of favorite things from the ERAS tour. I would look out and I would see a lot of bonding happening between generations of people.

JASON KELCE: Gosh, that’s so true.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It was really wonderful. It was the most incredible feeling in the world because I can see all that. I’ve got Lasik. I have incredible vision. Basically the ERAS tour, I think one of my favorite things was when the fans would come up with their own traditions. Right. Because I can plan a stage show that’s like, we know exactly what’s happening when it’s going to happen. It’s very stage managed. It’s a whole production. Right. And I love to plan, but I also do love surprises.

There’s a time during the European leg of the ERAS tour, there’s a song called “Willow” where we do a performance where we have these, it’s a very witchy performance. We have these light up orbs and wearing cloaks and it’s all very woo. And the fans decided that they were going to bring their own light up orbs. And by that I mean balloons that they would blow up in the audience. And then they would use their phone light behind it and create a light up orb. When I tell you, I looked out.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yep.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Or a glow stick. Whatever. They would figure out ways to illuminate them themselves. And it was insane to look out and see spontaneously thousands of these orbs just go up. And I’d just be like, I don’t even know who organized this.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Was there a group text? How did you guys even do this? It was so cool. It was so special.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It felt like we were all a part of something together in a way that couldn’t be planned. And there’s as much as I love and relish in planning, it was really fun that they would do things to sort of delight me every once in a while. They had little chants. They had all these traditions. By the end of the tour, it was like Rocky Horror Picture Show where they have their own show.

TRAVIS KELCE: They have their own show. Literally. It was. I remember being in Gelsenkirchen, Germany.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And you know what?

JASON KELCE: What did you just say?

TRAVIS KELCE: Gelsenkirchen.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Love him learning that.

JASON KELCE: Yeah, that’s our actual.

TAYLOR SWIFT: That’s a city he came to Gelsenkirchen. That’s how you supported me there.

TRAVIS KELCE: If you say with a German accent, it probably sounds more like the actual city, but my American accent is Gelsenkirchen. And I remember seeing that part of the show, and they were literally doing circles and putting the orbs up in the air and passing them to each other like they were performing.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It was so beautiful. They were so committed. I’ve never played for crowds that were as committed.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: So I think I loved the event of it. I’m always trying to figure out how to make music into more of an event. Right. How do we make it romantic? How do we make it something that people experience together? And, you know, that’s why I love vinyl. That’s why I love putting so much into the tour or a music video or events or activities for them to do or Easter eggs or little puzzles for them to solve.

It’s gotten to the point where it’s just, people are like, the Easter eggs thing is getting a little zodiac killer at this point. I’m like, as long as they like it, you know.

The Art of the Easter Egg

JASON KELCE: How do you go about knowing how to do an Easter egg? I don’t even know where does that process start?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Well, I have some parameters.

JASON KELCE: What is the art of the Easter egg?

TAYLOR SWIFT: The art of the Easter egg is like, there’s do’s and don’ts. Right? I’m never going to plant an Easter egg that ties back to my personal life. It’s always going to be towards music or a musical. Something I’m coming up with, something I have coming up, a plan I have coming together, something that you don’t know I’m saying for a specific reason that you’ll hear later and you’ll go back and be like, oh, my God.

I think my favorite one of those was I was given an honorary doctorate from NYU and I made the commencement speech, and I put so many lyrical Easter eggs in that speech that when the Midnights album came out after that, the fans were like, the whole speech was an Easter egg.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And that’s, for me, that’s really fun, because they find it fun, for sure. And also just, I love numerology. I love math stuff. I love dates. I love certain, I just, that’s stuff I find really fun. And, you know, I want Easter eggs to be a certain thing where if you are a part of the fandom and you want to experience music in a normal way, then you don’t even see these. You don’t even care what that thing is above that doorway under that dimly lit, flickering light over there that’s upside down backwards in braille. You don’t need to know what that is.

JASON KELCE: Yes.

TAYLOR SWIFT: But if you want to look at that.

JASON KELCE: But if you do, then it’s there. Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You know what I mean? If you know, you know, you know.

JASON KELCE: Oh, yeah. What’s.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Then you know?

Understanding Numerology

JASON KELCE: Let’s talk about something. I don’t know. What is numerology? You threw that phrase out there. Like, that’s a comment. What is numerology?

TRAVIS KELCE: You don’t know what numerology is?

JASON KELCE: I’m assuming something with numbers.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah. Like, I’m 87 and she’s 13.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. Literally, it’s that simple.

TRAVIS KELCE: Just numbers and 100.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. 13 plus 87 equals 100. That’s numerology.

JASON KELCE: Like numbers.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Numbers that have a specific significance. Like, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Do you not keep it 100 ever?

JASON KELCE: I’m trying to attempt to.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It’s crazy that you don’t.

JASON KELCE: What numbers do I have like that? Kylie, I don’t know how to do this.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It’s okay. It’s not my favorite number.

JASON KELCE: My favorite number is 13, though. It always has been.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Travis.

JASON KELCE: I know.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And that’s part of the numerology of why we’re dating.

JASON KELCE: Okay.

TRAVIS KELCE: Part of it.

JASON KELCE: Okay.

TRAVIS KELCE: It’s been in my life.

JASON KELCE: Travis likes people that like the number 13.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah.

JASON KELCE: What does them liking the number 13 say about us, though?

TAYLOR SWIFT: It says that we’re family in triskaidekaphilia. I think it is. Is the what? The obsession with.

TRAVIS KELCE: It’s every day, dude. This is every day.

JASON KELCE: That’s a real thing.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You know what that means?

TRAVIS KELCE: Every day.

TAYLOR SWIFT: He knows.

JASON KELCE: Triskaidekaphilia. So the, that’s the obsession with specifically number 13 or something. I’m sorry.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. Trisca. Decophobia is when you hate. Tris is when you love it.

JASON KELCE: Philia is love. I don’t know why. I think it was like, everybody else was afraid of number 13, so I’m—

TAYLOR SWIFT: Like, yeah, that’s phobia.

JASON KELCE: That’s okay.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. You’re just being contrarian, which I love. I love that about you.

JASON KELCE: All right.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You’re just like, you want to do this? I’m going to do this.

JASON KELCE: That’s exactly how I sound. Let’s get Jason.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Jason. Jason.

Travis Kelce’s Eras Tour Stage Appearance

JASON KELCE: All right. Favorite thing about the Eras tour was, besides going to it and just being amazed at everything. I think I was on another podcast recently, just all of the songs, everything you just talked about, where it changes so much, right? There’s something new every 20, 30 seconds. It was incredible, the non-stop length of it.

But I will, I’m going to be remiss if I don’t say one of the things that I loved is watching Travis Kelce get on the stage. The man in the tuxedo.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It was so good. It was so special. That was like, we were like, that came out because we thought we were doing a bit. Like, we both thought we were just joking because a lot of what we’re saying is inside of a bit, and we’re laughing the whole time. And every once in a while, one of us will be like, are you serious? Like, I could be.

JASON KELCE: I’m—

TAYLOR SWIFT: I could be serious. Are you serious?

TRAVIS KELCE: Like, I was. I was serious in, and in terrifying fashion. I was like, yeah, it was like—

TAYLOR SWIFT: A “wouldn’t it be funny if” kind of thing.

JASON KELCE: And I would try not to fuck this up.

TRAVIS KELCE: The show’s perfect. You don’t want to fuck the show up, do you?

TAYLOR SWIFT: But I knew you were going to be down for, I knew you were. If you wanted to do it, like, I was never going to pressure you to do it. But the fact that when we were talking about it, we were joking, I kind of got, I saw that little twinkle in your eye where I was like, oh, he wants to do it. He wants to do it.

TRAVIS KELCE: Do you want me to go on stage?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. You got up there. You were so good. Every single beat. His comedic timing is great. Crazy. And when the lights are bright, he’s like, he slows down time. Like, that’s when he—

TRAVIS KELCE: Well, no, I just black out and hope that it ends out perfect.

TAYLOR SWIFT: That’s, you said. You and I are saying the same thing.

TRAVIS KELCE: I did. I, yeah. Like, I rose from that stage and I saw how many people are looking at you. I was just like, blackout.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You looked so good. It was so amazing. Like, it was one of the loudest, if not the loudest screams I’ve ever heard on the tour.

TRAVIS KELCE: It was insane.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It really was.

JASON KELCE: How many? Trav, you played football in some of the biggest stadiums. You’ve been in front, people have been staring at your whole life. What was that moment?

TRAVIS KELCE: Like, there’s nothing like this. I felt like an ant. I felt like the smallest piece of life ever. Like, that entire stadium, the floor—

TAYLOR SWIFT: What are all these people doing on the field?

JASON KELCE: How are, holy—

TRAVIS KELCE: I didn’t know this place felt like this. Oh, my gosh. What is going on? I have to pick her up now. Okay, here we go. Don’t drop her.

JASON KELCE: Don’t—

TRAVIS KELCE: Just don’t drop her.

JASON KELCE: Don’t drop the baby.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You were actually scared about that. You could throw me over a mountain and climb the mountain and catch me on the other side.

JASON KELCE: Like, football players drop balls all the time.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Oh, my gosh. It was so good. It was London. It was Wembley Stadium. It was, those were such special shows. And we had just, wasn’t this the week that I got to watch Jason meet the Royal Family?

JASON KELCE: It was.

TRAVIS KELCE: It was.

Meeting the Royal Family

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. I knew you were serious when I was like, Jason, do you want to go meet—

TRAVIS KELCE: He was like, what do I do with my beer?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. I watched him have this moment with his beer where he’s just like, but I want to take it. But I know that I probably should not take it. I watched this happen, and it was kind of the most—

TRAVIS KELCE: What do I do when I meet—

JASON KELCE: I like that you picked up on it because that was exactly what’s going on.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Like, if I don’t have my beer, what do I do with this hand now?

JASON KELCE: Like, disrespectful to have a beer when—

TAYLOR SWIFT: You need loyalty, or am I just being authentic by having the beer? I would normally have the beer. Wouldn’t they want me to be myself? I’m watching you say that in your head, and it was fantastic. I don’t know. I’ll always remember that. Just like I’ll always remember meeting you for the first time.

TRAVIS KELCE: Jason.

JASON KELCE: Do we need to talk about that? That time, I did hold onto my beer.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You did?

First Impressions

JASON KELCE: What was, I guess you brought it up. What was that first impression? Like, what was, did you know I was told to be on my best behavior?

TAYLOR SWIFT: I didn’t know what you were told, but I did know that one of the first things I saw was you say to Kylie, “I was just shotgunning beers with the Bills Mafia, and I really want to go through one of the fire tables.”

JASON KELCE: Yep.

TAYLOR SWIFT: “I want to jump through it. I want to jump onto the flaming table.” And she goes, “Okay, can we not do that right now?”

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah. God.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And since then, I’ve heard her say that exact thing to your 4-year-old about like, “Mommy, I want to throw this pudding on the wall. Wouldn’t that be fun?” “Can we not do it right?”

JASON KELCE: That’s a common phrase.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And so I meet you. You’re exactly as I thought you would be. Kylie is exactly as I thought she would be. Just the realest, the smartest, the coolest. You’re fantastic. Obviously, you know that.

And then, I swear to God, Jason, you flew through the window at light speed. I’ve never seen someone so big move so fast.

TRAVIS KELCE: It’s impressive.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You know when you see a cricket and it’s here?

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And then it’s gone, and it’s 16 feet that way. You’re like, did it just jump that way? How did it do that?

TRAVIS KELCE: And he, surprisingly, he gets more athletic the—

JASON KELCE: More beers. I mean, it’s really wild. I really should have played in the NFL to jump. I think it would have been better.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You know what? Not, no. At this point, I would never argue with that. And all of a sudden, you’re out there in the snow, you’re handing me children through the window, trying to—

JASON KELCE: That was fully not my best moment. It was—

TAYLOR SWIFT: And I think it actually was. And I’m really—

JASON KELCE: Taylor. Like, you want to see Taylor? I got you. Let’s go. We’re going.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Whose kid is that? Jason, do you know where this kid came from?

But, yeah, it was. I think it was your best moment, and I think I’m very lucky to have gotten to see it. I love this new world that Travis has shown me because I really, it’s so fun. It’s so exciting. There’s so much pressure on these players that I didn’t, I kind of was like, I’ve only ever been in music and been seeing that.

But the pressure on sports is just such a different type that I have such a respect for everyone, everyone I meet on his team. Like, everyone I see doing this, I’m just like, you’ve been focused on this since you were a kid, and it shows.

JASON KELCE: Well, and I’m sure there’s a lot of relatability there. Anybody trying to be the best at what they do and dedicating their lives to it.

Experiencing Game Day From the Suite

TRAVIS KELCE: But, I mean, yeah, yeah, I’ve been, I’ve been so lucky because I never have gotten to see what the suite looks like when I play the game. I never get to see my friends and family. I never get, so now, whenever I make a play, I get to see it, what it actually looks like, how much fun they’re having, what, you know, the type of support that I get and how crazy it gets.

So the Vegas Super Bowl, there was a camera on the suite. And when Mecole scored that touchdown, and to see everybody in that suite start jumping on each other—

TAYLOR SWIFT: People are body slamming each other into other rooms. It was so violent.

TRAVIS KELCE: It’s giving me the chills. I’m the luckiest guy in the world. That video to get everybody going crazy, people went down.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Like, there are people punching each other. It was like absolute chaos. And I have every memory of that. Like, every memory of that moment is intact, but it’s just screaming and thrashing around and trying not to be taken down by this undertow of your friends going absolutely—

TRAVIS KELCE: I loved every bit of it.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Oh, it was so insane.

JASON KELCE: I mean, the suite that is the Travis Kelce suite, that has been happening. What was your first impression of that? Of everybody in there? Who’s the MVP of the suite? Who’s the MVP of the suite?

The Green Flags

TAYLOR SWIFT: Okay, so he’s got—which is an incredible, huge green flag—Travis has had the same friends since he’s probably 4 years old.

JASON KELCE: Yes.

TRAVIS KELCE: Literally.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And he’s incredibly good at maintaining friendships. And he’s so loyal. And his friends are equally loyal. And they’re just the funniest, most hilarious group of people.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah. And you want to talk about green flags. The first game she went to, the Bears game, she literally went through the front door of the stadium.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. We walked right in.

JASON KELCE: Just right in.

TRAVIS KELCE: General admission through with everybody on the bus to the game.

JASON KELCE: Oh, my God.

TRAVIS KELCE: I was just like, oh, she’s just in it. She’s down. She’s down for the ride. She’s here for the fun. She’s like, I’ll go. I’ll go through the mud. I’ll be a part of Cheese Kingdom.

TAYLOR SWIFT: If this is where we walk in, this is where we walk in. I don’t know what to tell you. I don’t have an alternative. I’m like, you know, we just played here three months ago.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And we went a different way. But I’m not going to say that. I’m not going to backseat drive this.

JASON KELCE: What was that like? What were people doing?

TAYLOR SWIFT: I remember Ross was so tall and so broad that it helps a lot. And then just you have a lot of other big bulky dudes that you’re friends with. Green flag. Not threatened by other guys.

JASON KELCE: That’s right. At all.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I was walking in with—I had a hat on and I had a mask on. And I’m walking in just in the front. We’re walking in with thousands of people in Arrowhead and nobody noticed.

JASON KELCE: Oh, my gosh.

TAYLOR SWIFT: There were rumors that we had been seeing each other, but I think people were like, what would they talk about? You know?

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah. I hinted on the Pat McAfee show that I was going to see if you would be willing to come see me rock the stage at Arrowhead.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TRAVIS KELCE: Since I saw you make the stadium.

TAYLOR SWIFT: But nobody was like, oh, yeah, we’re definitely going to see her there. Nobody coming in through general admission.

TRAVIS KELCE: No way this guy landed her. No chance. No chance that whole podcast thing worked.

JASON KELCE: I didn’t believe it when you told me.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You manifested it.

TRAVIS KELCE: I did.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You summoned me. Here I am.

Andy Reid’s Role

JASON KELCE: Andy Reid has recently revealed that he was the one who set you guys up. How true is this revelation by Big Red?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Whatever Andy Reid says, we’re going to stand by.

JASON KELCE: We’re not going to refute anything.

TAYLOR SWIFT: He says it. That’s what happened.

TRAVIS KELCE: Big Red. So it’s all the same.

TAYLOR SWIFT: That’s what happened. He’s been friends with my dad. My dad is the most social man who’s ever been born.

TRAVIS KELCE: Shout out to Scott.

JASON KELCE: I was about to say, who’s not friends with Scott?

TAYLOR SWIFT: He’s just a maniac. He will make a friend in an airport in 1971, have a five minute conversation and still be talking to that dude twice a week now. But he’s like that with everyone he meets. He’s able to have very many very meaningful relationships. And it’s a skill.

TRAVIS KELCE: It’s a talent.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It is.

TRAVIS KELCE: It is a mind boggling talent that I have only known him to have.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, yeah. He’s a savant. It is impressive social savant, my dad. And so he knows Andy and, you know, Andy’s been coming to shows for years and stuff like that, so I’ve always had a really positive vibe about Andy Reid. I didn’t really know what the sports were that he was doing, but I knew that that was my dad’s friend, Andy Reid.

I now know he is literally the most iconic, legendary coach of all time. And from the way that you talk about him, his leadership style is so—I respect it so much.

TRAVIS KELCE: Right.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Because I feel like it’s done without aggression or raising your voice or losing your composure. It’s all very composed and focused.

JASON KELCE: Can happen.

TRAVIS KELCE: It will rip you apart for sure.

TAYLOR SWIFT: But not—

TRAVIS KELCE: Got to be really—but I feel like he’s calling.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, but that’s the thing.

TRAVIS KELCE: It’s like—

TAYLOR SWIFT: But it’s not done. It’s not overdone, right?

TRAVIS KELCE: No.

TAYLOR SWIFT: From him, you know you deserve it and you’re going to shape up. That’s what I heard.

TRAVIS KELCE: Exactly. And yeah. There’s validity to it. There’s such a genuine want to get better that him getting you to do it the right way is—it’s like a disciplinary thing. It’s just like, he wouldn’t be doing it unless he saw the greatness in you or he saw your ability to get it right. And he wouldn’t be doing it this way if it was any other way. If that makes sense.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It does.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: There’s a lot of heart.

JASON KELCE: Yeah. There’s a stoicism, too, which makes the heart—when he shows it to you, and I think this is what you’re kind of saying, Taylor, he’s so composed and so locked in. And then all of a sudden, when he does show that little bit of warmth, it’s like, oh, there’s that teddy bear. I see him.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, he’s funny. He’s cheeky.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TRAVIS KELCE: And then—

TAYLOR SWIFT: But it’s like, everything has a reason. Everything is very intentional. He coaches and lives in a very intentional way, which I think is really awesome. And it’s just a great leadership style.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah. There’s a layer of trust, and there’s a layer of discipline where you’re going to have some fun playing for him, but you’re going to know when you got to flip that switch to be serious and be on point and do it his way. He says it all the time. He’s got 51%. I was like, yeah, all right. Whatever you say, boss.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I always feel like when you lose your composure, you lose your leadership, you know. It’s just kind of something I’ve always kind of tried to administer in what I’m doing. But he’s a huge role model for that, is how he motivates people and how he does so without flying off the handle, and is just very focused on what the right thing is at the right moment, you know?

TRAVIS KELCE: Yep.

How They Got Together

JASON KELCE: So what—so did Andy tell Scott something? Is that what I’m trying to—what did Andy say to Scott?

TAYLOR SWIFT: I mean, okay, so when you guys did the full send on the podcast—

TRAVIS KELCE: Yes, it was a full send.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And he was like, “you want to date me?” And everybody heard it. It was the shooting your shot heard round the world.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yes.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Basically everyone who likes you, which is a lot of people, started reaching out to everyone who knows me.

JASON KELCE: There we go.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I think it was like, Andy was vouching for you. I think it was my relatives. My cousins were like, “please, please, please. He’s amazing.” There were friends that were like, “he’s actually an amazing guy. He’s so great.” There was a lot of people whispering in my ear about you, and actually, that’s not normal. It’s not normal. There are people just willing to go to bat for you, be like, “you don’t understand. This guy’s incredible.”

JASON KELCE: Well, Andy, well done.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. Thank you, Andy.

TRAVIS KELCE: And Scott. And Scott. Thank you.

Scott Swift’s Health Journey

JASON KELCE: There we go. Scott. Speaking of which, how’s Scott doing?

TAYLOR SWIFT: He’s doing good, so he is doing incredibly well. My dad had an interesting summer. He actually had a quintuple bypass surgery, and that’s a really intense surgery. So it all happened really quick. He went in. I know he would want me to say this, because he really learned a lot through this process.

He’s had a healthy, perfect EKG every year that he’s gone in to get his physicals. Perfect EKG.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: But what found his five hard blockages in his heart was a resting stress test. So he’s been telling all his friends, “you need to get the stress test,” because that’s what’s actually preventative. If you can find that earlier, you don’t have to have a bypass surgery. You can sort out those blockages with stents and things that are a lot less invasive.

So he finds out that he’s got these blockages. They’re like, “this is—we got to do this tomorrow. You shouldn’t—we don’t know how you walked in here. Dude, this is crazy.” So he was, of course, saying to our family, he was like, “you guys are busy. I don’t want you guys to have to come in here. You and Austin are busy. Just don’t—you don’t have to do this.”

TRAVIS KELCE: The brave dad, the strong dad.

TAYLOR SWIFT: He said something about when a cat is injured, it curls up around a tree and heals itself. I was like, “dad, cats don’t have quintuple bypasses.”

TRAVIS KELCE: He tried to relate.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You’re just saying stuff now that doesn’t mean anything to me. And so I was like, “okay, I’m not going to come there.”

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: All right. So he wakes up from surgery, and it’s my mom, my brother, and me, and his best friend. And he comes out of surgery, and he did a comedy act, a comedy set, for 15 minutes. He was the funniest he’s ever been. And he’s funny, but we didn’t know how many blockages he had.

And I was like, “dad, you had a quintuple bypass. You had five. It’s crazy. It’s more than we thought.” And he’s like, “well, you see, I come from a very competitive family.”

And it was kind of wild because it was very parent child reversal in a lot of ways. My brother and my mom and I were each taking shifts in the ICU and staying with them 24/7. And I remember when I was a teenager, my parents would always—the big fight we always had is I’d sneak my cell phone into my room and be talking to my best friend Abigail under the covers all night. And they’d be like, “you have a test tomorrow. You need to rest. We’re taking your phone.”

I’d get to the hospital, my brother will have done the night shift. And he’s like, “hey, you got to take his phone. I caught him FaceTiming his friends all night. He needs his rest. He needs to be sleeping. He’s FaceTiming all night.”

TRAVIS KELCE: It’s like one of the main things you need is you need your body to just recover.

Caring for Family Through Recovery

TAYLOR SWIFT: And I’m like, I’m not taking his phone. He’ll get mad. He’s like, I’m not taking his phone. You got to be the one to take his phone. I’m like, I’m not doing it. My mom’s like, I don’t want to do it. So we’re just like, we’ve got our teenage son’s phone away from him because he’s FaceTiming all night.

He came out of surgery, tried to give guitar picks to all the nurses and doctors, but he wasn’t wearing pants, didn’t have pockets, hospital gown. I’m having these moments where I’m like, this dude built play sets and swing sets and cribs for me. I’m building his shower chair and his walker and his bed that goes like this. It’s just surreal, man.

We just all moved in with him for the whole summer pretty much because you can’t really walk on your own. We had a little harness for my dad, just walking dad on his harness, and he was the loveliest patient ever. He just kept saying thank you over and over again.

TRAVIS KELCE: Guy was full of life, man.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah.

TRAVIS KELCE: He was appreciative that he caught it.

JASON KELCE: He still is.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah.

JASON KELCE: We had the FaceTime with him last time we were together, and I was like, yeah, he hasn’t changed a bit. This guy’s still got the energy going.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. So Trav was hanging with him the other day, and he was like, he says he’s at 75%, and if this is 75%, I’m truly terrified.

TRAVIS KELCE: To give you the update, I’m probably at 85 to 90% now. We still got a month, though.

TAYLOR SWIFT: My dad’s like, new arteries, new me. My mom just got a new knee.

TRAVIS KELCE: New knee.

JASON KELCE: There we go. New knee.

TAYLOR SWIFT: She’s doing great. She’s scampering around. We’re not quite at scampering yet, but she’s doing great.

TRAVIS KELCE: She’s moving around.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. This was just the summer of my parental upgrades. We’re just upgrading the parents, making sure that they live to be at least 186 years old because they’re two of my best friends, and I just adore them.

It was actually one of the most special things that’s ever happened to me, spending all that time with them this summer and getting to have those long talks that you don’t have when it’s a small, concentrated period of time. This is when I learned to do the sourdough. My parents’ friend Tina sends over a loaf of bread.

TRAVIS KELCE: Shout out, Tina.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Shout out, Tina. Thank you. Tina sends over the best loaf of bread I’ve ever had in my life. To call it bread feels really, honestly, sort of minimizing what this was. I’m like, I need to know how to do this. I go over Tina’s house. She teaches me how to do it. She gives me some starter. Life is never the same.

All these things are happening in Florida. Travis is doing his training. He’s in Florida. Look at him. And he’s so fast. He jumps so high. So this is our Florida summer.

JASON KELCE: That’s what it is.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It’s a hell of a drug.

TRAVIS KELCE: It’s one hell of a drug, really.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Florida’d it up.

The Impact on Young Fans

JASON KELCE: How many people have come up to you guys and talked about how much they’ve appreciated you being a part of the Chiefs and their daughters all of a sudden being into sports? Because I get it all the time. I can’t imagine how much you guys get it, how much the game has grown.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It definitely feels like a lot of people say that to us, which is really kind, because there was never a thought in either of our heads that that was going to be.

TRAVIS KELCE: I had no idea. That was a pleasant surprise, seeing all the little girls in the stands at games, and you can see a proud father right there standing next to them. It’s definitely been fun to see that surprise.

TAYLOR SWIFT: A lot of the women and girls, maybe they watched one game to see me cheer on my boyfriend or whatever, but if they stayed, which is what people are saying based on the numbers, that’s because the game is so great, and it’s such an amazing, interesting thing to learn about.

Comparing Careers: Stadium Performances

TRAVIS KELCE: I will say it was cool to see the comparison of it all, because the way she runs her tour, her show, her team and everything is very team friendly. There are similarities in terms of her athleticism.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TRAVIS KELCE: What she’s doing for three hours.

JASON KELCE: I mean, I was screaming for 40 seconds during the intro, and I’m out of breath.

TRAVIS KELCE: That’s what I’m saying.

JASON KELCE: That’s what I’m saying.

TRAVIS KELCE: But the preparation it takes.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I got a whole regimen for you. Get you on the tour. It’ll be great.

JASON KELCE: Perfect.

TRAVIS KELCE: The goals that you set for yourself to achieve, there are some similarities that I thought you found fascinating that you kind of have that same regimen going into stuff. And I thought that was fun for me to at least see when I saw you on tour and saw how much of a team you guys were.

TAYLOR SWIFT: We actually kind of have a very similar job. Our job is to entertain people for three plus hours in NFL stadiums. When I’m there, it’s called a dressing room. When Travis is there, it’s called a locker room. For me, it’s called a rehearsal. For him, it’s called a practice. For him, it’s called his coach. For me, it’s my mom.

So there will be times for game versus show. I’ll be like, “Baby, how was the show?” Game, game, how was the rehearsal, the practice? Field, stage? They’re the same thing. We just call them different things.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yes, exactly. It was cool to see the comparisons and how it kind of both aligned and how hard she works in the gym. We’ve been to the gym numerous times and she works harder than me every time.

TAYLOR SWIFT: That’s not true. That’s crazy.

TRAVIS KELCE: Okay, yeah, he’s just saying.

TAYLOR SWIFT: He’s just saying. It’s words.

JASON KELCE: That’s one rep. That’s one rep. This is what people do more.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah, I’ve heard about the…

JASON KELCE: We’ve talked about the treadmill walk while you’re doing the whole show. We can’t walk for four hours. When’s the last time you walked for four hours, Travis?

TRAVIS KELCE: I’ve never even tried that. I’m not stupid enough to try something like that. You kidding me? My knees would be shredded.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Oh my God.

Handling Media Attention and Online Discourse

JASON KELCE: So one of the other things that’s been crazy to witness is just the media attention. The media attention on your guys’ relationship, on the amount of people that talk about it constantly, the theories that are out there, of which I am probably way too invested in. How do you guys handle all of the noise and chatter about everything that’s going on in both of your lives?

TAYLOR SWIFT: We don’t really. I don’t see a lot of things. I’m of the firm belief that if you’re basing your feedback from the Internet or from comments and stuff, anything you feed your brain, it will internalize. Anything you feed the Internet, it will kill.

I’ve been in the music industry for 20 years. It’s pretty hard to hurt my feelings at this point.

TRAVIS KELCE: She’s a pro and it took me a little while to be a pro about it. I think there’s still some wacko theories from the beginning that I was very like, oh, no, how is she handling this? The last thing I wanted to do is screw this up. So I’m like, in my mind, her being so calm, cool, collected, and so just real and understanding about everything that’s going on really made me grow up real fast in that aspect.

TAYLOR SWIFT: But also I think the fact that you genuinely find a lot of online discourse to be truly hilarious.

TRAVIS KELCE: Absolutely.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And that changes things for me.

JASON KELCE: Find the humor in it.

TAYLOR SWIFT: If he’s seeing things and he thinks it’s funny and it doesn’t even affect his day at all, that’s really completely bled into the way that I metabolize these things. It’s at a point where something can be about me. My name can be in the actual headline and it can still be none of my business.

People can be out here, people might be out here doing too much, just shaking ass. Doesn’t mean I have to do a damn thing. We live in such a social media moment where a lot of people’s identities and they get their feedback from that. I’m a real constructive criticism guy. Give me constructive criticism all day. I will take it. It’ll fuel me. It’s helpful.

But I have so many friends or acquaintances or people who are like, they’ll see one comment they don’t like, and it will ruin their day, it’ll ruin their night. And I just want to say to them, you should think of your energy as if it’s expensive, as if it’s a luxury item. Not everyone can afford it. Not everyone has invested in you in order to be able to have the capital for you to care about this.

Because what you spend your energy on, that’s the day. And it’s so true. It doesn’t matter where you were. Maybe you went to go get coffee today, maybe you saw friends today. If you were obsessing over one thing that you saw, you saw some guy call you mid and you can’t…

JASON KELCE: No, no, he did not.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You can’t stop thinking about it, dude, that’s the day, then that’s the night then. And so I’ve been able to sort of mediate a really healthy relationship with not seeing a whole lot.

JASON KELCE: To what you just said, social media expounds everything because everybody knows if they say one thing, but all of a sudden, if they put Taylor Swift attached to it, it’s going to get a thousand more retweets and likes and hate comments or love comments or whatever. It’s going to stir up tons of controversy.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Totally.

JASON KELCE: And I get this way all the time where I just recently went into the facility with Cam Juergens and something was happening in the social media world that I was like, why are people upset at this person? This is yada yada. And Cam just hit me with, are they really though, or did just one person say something? Because I used to get the same way where I’d get upset. And then it took me, actually, nobody really gives a…

TRAVIS KELCE: Jason’s early Twitter years. Oh, baby. My God. Oh, baby. He had to get off. He had to literally step away.

JASON KELCE: It hit me right between the eyes.

TRAVIS KELCE: Because he would respond. I wouldn’t say everybody, but he wasn’t shy of letting people know how he felt on Twitter.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Oh, yeah.

Navigating Social Media and Online Presence

TRAVIS KELCE: Based off of their comments, it was honestly Philadelphia. You guys know this. It was a treat. And it’s become a treat again now that he’s back on, because you’ll have a friendly conversation.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Right? Look, you remember Twitter? You’re like, I said, who, me? Squirrel ate a piece of bread. Didn’t know they.

TRAVIS KELCE: I need to get back on Twitter. Now that there’s autocorrect, I need to get back on Twitter.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Right? I’m like, I need a pair of scissors to open this. These scissors. Like, we’re just thinking things, right? It’s a different thing now. And it’s kind of about, like, information is power, I guess. Unless all of your information is geared towards you thinking that everything is about you.

Because, you know, not everyone is ever thinking about one person all the time at any point. It’s just like, if your algorithm is giving you either criticisms of yourself or adulation or praise, you’re creating an ecosystem in which you’re the centerpiece of the table. And I just don’t think that’s healthy. Like, that’s not the way I want to move through the world.

So I do detach from the Internet in a huge way. Like, I’m just not. I have never. I have had my comments disabled on Instagram for, like, 10 years now.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And it’s very. I don’t miss it.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah, I found that out after the Eras tour. Comments were going to be the first one.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Dude.

JASON KELCE: The problem is I get so mad, I then go and look at all the other comments, and then Twitter just feeds me more.

TRAVIS KELCE: Dude, you’re on, like, Reddit.

JASON KELCE: Boom.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Whereas I’m like, I don’t know what this is, but get out of my office. It’s on fire. My business is making music and taking care of my fans. And I have ways of monitoring what they want from me and how best to entertain them, which is my job and everything else. I’m just sort of like, it’s not my business. I have actual business that I need to run.

Can you imagine if we just talked about what people said about our relationship? Because that. If we talked about that, that would be all we talked about. Because there’s so much chatter. It’s like we’re busy having an actual relationship.

TRAVIS KELCE: I want to hear sour. Sourdough bread puns.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, and you will, and that’s a promise.

New Heights

JASON KELCE: All right, let’s get to the part of this show that I think is what everybody is going to be talking about.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Do I get to say it? Do I get to say. I get to say the two words? Yes.

JASON KELCE: Well, you. I think we were going to try, and.

TAYLOR SWIFT: This is what I.

JASON KELCE: You could do whatever you want, Taylor.

TRAVIS KELCE: I don’t know.

JASON KELCE: We’re not going to review. This is very much what I work.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Within the framework of the podcast. I’m a fan of the podcast.

JASON KELCE: Typically, we would allow the guest to say, new news.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, yeah, I want to do it.

JASON KELCE: But with Zach Brown, we had another bit that we did. I don’t know if you saw.

TRAVIS KELCE: I don’t know if we can get harmonized. I’ve not going to do it. I forgot everything that Zach taught me already.

JASON KELCE: All right, let’s just let the expert take care of this.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Okay. I just wanted. I wanted to scream it, Taylor. Just Travis style. Do you want me to start it or echo it?

TRAVIS KELCE: I think Taylor has a little bit of new.

JASON KELCE: New, new, new. Yay. She’s a natural. She’s a natural.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It was as fun as I thought it was going to be. Oh, it was everything. It was everything and more.

The Orange Door Easter Egg

JASON KELCE: We did talk about Easter eggs earlier. And at the very last Eras tour, you didn’t take the lift. You did not. You went upstage and exited through an orange door. Why did you change the ending?

TAYLOR SWIFT: So that’s. I’m happy you mentioned that. Did you see that? Fans. Did you see that? The fans noticed this? Because I was pretty proud of them for noticing that they noticed.

JASON KELCE: I just. Yeah, I was surfing the Internet and saw something.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. So that was. I was pretty happy that they noticed that I was, like, trained him well. So basically, every night of the Eras.

JASON KELCE: Everything happens with a reason. Taylor’s a planner. She’s not just a random orange door.

TAYLOR SWIFT: What’s happening there? Why is why, and why. Anyway, so I would leave the stage every night going down the elevator lift. That’s how every single Eras show ended, except for one. Except for the last one where I exited through a door. An orange door, to be specific.

And that actually was an Easter egg. Basically, the reason why I chose to exit that way is because I kind of wanted to give a little subliminal hint to the fans that I may be leaving the Eras tour era, but I was also entering a new era. A new era. So I wanted to show you something.

JASON KELCE: Okay, what do we got?

TAYLOR SWIFT: We got.

JASON KELCE: A briefcase.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yep.

JASON KELCE: Mint green with TS on it.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yep.

JASON KELCE: What’s in it?

Album Announcement: “The Life of a Showgirl”

TAYLOR SWIFT: This is my brand new album.

JASON KELCE: We got TS12, baby.

TAYLOR SWIFT: This is my brand new album. It’s called “The Life of a Showgirl.”

JASON KELCE: Love it.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It was something that I was working on while I was in Europe on the Eras tour.

JASON KELCE: So while you were on tour?

TAYLOR SWIFT: I was working. I would be on tour.

TRAVIS KELCE: How on earth did she do this on the tour? Is still blowing my mind.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I just love it. I just love it a lot. I love music. I would be playing shows. I’d do like three shows in a row. I’d have three days off. I’d fly to Sweden, go back to the tour, and actually like working on this. I was physically exhausted at this point in the tour, but I was so mentally stimulated and so excited to be creating and this is.

TRAVIS KELCE: And literally living the life of a showgirl.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I was.

TRAVIS KELCE: While she wrote it.

TAYLOR SWIFT: That’s why I said. That’s why I called it that. Nailed it. So do you want to see the back cover?

JASON KELCE: I would love to see all of it. Yes.

The Track List

TAYLOR SWIFT: Back cover is where we find the 12 tracks.

JASON KELCE: For my 12. 12 tracks, bangers.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Okay, so we got all. So we got track one, “The Fate of Ophelia.”

TRAVIS KELCE: Okay.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Track two.

TRAVIS KELCE: Okay, go ahead. I was going to say, do you know what fate of Ophelia? I just. I. Hamlet. I don’t want to get Jason all round up. So let’s. We can just go through the track.

JASON KELCE: Okay. Okay. Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Track two, “Elizabeth Taylor.”

JASON KELCE: Okay.

TRAVIS KELCE: You know who Elizabeth Taylor is?

TAYLOR SWIFT: You better.

JASON KELCE: I’m just kind of following. Just kind of following along.

TRAVIS KELCE: Okay. All right, all right.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Track three, “Opalite.”

JASON KELCE: Opalite.

TRAVIS KELCE: You know what Opalite is?

JASON KELCE: Jason. Why can we stop asking me?

TRAVIS KELCE: I’m done asking Jason things.

TAYLOR SWIFT: He’s like, I hate this.

TRAVIS KELCE: I know a lot about this album, and I’m excited.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Track four, “Father Figure.” Track five, “Eldest Daughter.” Track six, “Ruin the Friendship.” Track seven, “Actually Romantic.”

JASON KELCE: Actually romantic.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Track eight. I wonder who that “Wi$$h Li$$t” with two dollar signs as the S’s. Point that out. Flourish. Track nine, “Wood.”

JASON KELCE: Wood. Nice.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Track ten, “CANCELED!” but it’s in all caps with an exclamation point at the end.

TRAVIS KELCE: That’s a banger.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Track 11, “Honey, Honey,” and can I. Can you do drumroll? Last track, track 12, the title track. “The Life of a Showgirl,” featuring Sabrina Carpenter.

JASON KELCE: Sabrina Carpenter. That’s awesome.

TAYLOR SWIFT: So that’s that. Yeah.

TRAVIS KELCE: And so that is a showgirl.

TAYLOR SWIFT: We got this orange vine.

JASON KELCE: It’s orange.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, it is. And sparkly.

TRAVIS KELCE: Entering a new era.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Sparkly.

TRAVIS KELCE: It’s very nice.

The Significance of Orange

JASON KELCE: So what is the significance of the color orange? Why orange?

TAYLOR SWIFT: I’ve just always liked it, Jason. It really. It really feels like. I don’t know, it feels like. It feels like kind of energetically how my life has felt. And this album is about what was going on behind the scenes in my inner life during this tour, which was so exuberant and electric and vibrant.

And, you know, one of the things about this record is, like, it’s. It’s a record I made with my mentor Max Martin, and Shellback. And this. The three of us have made some of my favorite songs that I’ve ever done before.

JASON KELCE: Which ones, if you don’t mind me asking?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Well, they were my main collaborators on the “Red” album. We did “We Are Never Getting Back Together,” “I Knew You Were Trouble,” “22,” “Shake It Off,” “Blank Space,” “Style,” “Wildest Dreams.”

JASON KELCE: Hell yes.

TAYLOR SWIFT: “…Ready for It?”

JASON KELCE: So that’s the.

TRAVIS KELCE: That’s the energy we’re going with. Yes. I understand why it’s orange now. Okay.

TAYLOR SWIFT: So, yeah, we’ve made. We’ve made songs that I’m so proud of.

JASON KELCE: There’s going to be some fucking bangers.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yes.

JASON KELCE: I’m picking it up.

Working with Max Martin and Shellback

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, it’s like that. And so basically, we’ve never actually made an album before where. There. Where it’s just the three of us. There’s no other collaborators. It’s just the three of us making a focused album where. I mean, it felt like. It felt like catching lightning in a bottle. Honestly, we hadn’t worked together in, like, seven or eight years.

TRAVIS KELCE: And this feeds. This feeds.

TAYLOR SWIFT: They’re just. They’re just something. There’s something about them. These guys, they, like. They’re just geniuses in. In different avenues, in different ways, and we kind of. I’m going to put it down. I’ve just.

JASON KELCE: Travis Holder.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I’ve never. Like, this. Today’s the first day I’ve seen it. Do you know what I mean? I’m just like, Travis is just going to cradle it the whole time.

JASON KELCE: Don’t drop the baby.

TRAVIS KELCE: I will not drop this baby.

TAYLOR SWIFT: So it’s like working with them again was absolutely incredible. And actually, when I was on tour in Stockholm, I had Max Martin come out to the show, and I was talking to him, and I was like, I just feel like. I feel like we could just knock it out of the park if we went back in and we did this all in Sweden and it was just us three.

Like, I want to. I essentially said to him, I want to be as proud of an album as I am of the Eras tour, and for the same reasons, you know? And. And he was like, do you understand what kind of pressure that is?

Working with Max Martin and Shellback

JASON KELCE: Yeah, that is. Okay.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I was like, yeah, why would you.

TRAVIS KELCE: We can try.

JASON KELCE: Let’s try. So your entire career. Got it. Yeah. We can do that on one album. Well, okay.

TAYLOR SWIFT: So it’s like, you know, I spent time in the time that we were off doing different projects, and he and Shellback were doing different things, and I was making albums that were a little bit more esoteric, like Folklore.

TRAVIS KELCE: She’s so hot. She says these big words.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You know what esoteric means?

TRAVIS KELCE: I know. It’s for specific following.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Exactly. Exactly.

JASON KELCE: Wait, what?

TAYLOR SWIFT: He knows what that means. He pretends he doesn’t know what these words mean, but he knows what esoteric.

TRAVIS KELCE: Means for a specific following, like, a specific genre of people.

TAYLOR SWIFT: He knows what it means.

JASON KELCE: Okay.

TAYLOR SWIFT: He’s doing. He does. He does a pretty “I don’t know what it means” thing, but he knows all the words, and he knows what they mean. I don’t know. And he may not have read Hamlet, but I explained it to him.

JASON KELCE: Okay, there we go.

TRAVIS KELCE: Don’t tell my middle school English teacher I didn’t read Hamlet because I definitely was supposed to.

JASON KELCE: Spark notes.

TRAVIS KELCE: It’s all right. I watched a live game.

TAYLOR SWIFT: He knows what Hamlet is.

JASON KELCE: Wait, Lion King is based off of Hamlet?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yes.

TRAVIS KELCE: Jason, your Reddit searches need to be more focused on relevant things.

TAYLOR SWIFT: We need your relationship with the Internet to be a little bit purer.

TRAVIS KELCE: I got the algorithm. I got the algorithm.

JASON KELCE: My relationship with the Internet is bad. It’s about as bad as it can get.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah.

JASON KELCE: Sorry.

TAYLOR SWIFT: No, you’re fine. So I was like, I made a few records that were a bit more specific in their sound or whatever, like Folklore, Evermore. Those were a little bit more alt folk kind of leaning and just kind of exploring and trying to challenge myself as a writer. And I feel like both Max and Shellback did that, too, in their own ways, going out into the world.

And when we, by the time we came back together, I feel like we had so much more dexterity to what we do, and it’s almost like we’d all grown up so much. Shellback and I were both in our early 20s when we started working together, the three of us. And so it was very much like we were the ingenues and Max was the mentor.

And this was the time where it felt like all three of us in the room were carrying the same weight as creators, and it was really special. It meant the world to me to have this creative experience where we knew that we had to bring the best ideas we’ve ever had.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And I know, I also know the pressure I’m putting on this record by saying that, but I don’t care, because I love it that much, and I’m so proud of it. And it just comes from the most infectiously joyful, wild, dramatic place I was in in my life. And so that effervescence has come through on this record.

And as you said, bangers and bangers, and we were just like, there’s no other songs coming. It’s not like with Torture Poets Department, I was like, here’s a data dump of everything I thought felt like in two or three years. Here’s 31 songs. This is 12. There’s not a 13th. There’s not a four. There’s not other ones coming. This is the record I’ve been wanting to make for a very long time.

The Podcast Invitation

JASON KELCE: I love it. I love this so much. So where do we start? I don’t know where to start. You gave us a lot of information right there.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I know. We didn’t tell Jason that this, that we were doing this. No, I just said, can I go on the podcast? Because Brad Pitt did it, and I want to do it too.

TRAVIS KELCE: But Jason was like, yes. I mean, we can make that happen.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Happened.

TRAVIS KELCE: The request or the ask from either one of us was never going to come. I don’t know why I would never ask you. I just, I don’t know. Yeah. Brandon still hates me because I never asked you, but I think this is way better.

TAYLOR SWIFT: We waited till I had some stuff to say. I think.

TRAVIS KELCE: There we go.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You know, I had to. I was waiting till I had a sparkly briefcase to bring. I needed props. It took a long time to put that into production.

JASON KELCE: So.

TRAVIS KELCE: Well, it is finished. And do you want to tell everybody when it’s coming out?

TAYLOR SWIFT: It comes out October 3rd.

JASON KELCE: October 3rd.

TAYLOR SWIFT: This album comes out October 3rd. It’s easy to remember. It’s 10:3.

JASON KELCE: 10:3.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Still annoying. It is also your birthday week.

JASON KELCE: We got Wyatt October 2nd. We got you October 5th, and then we got mom October 9th. So this is a good. It’s a good month.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, I picked a good month.

TRAVIS KELCE: It’s going to be a good week.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You know.

JASON KELCE: 10, 3, 13, opal burst. I’m picking up this numerology. There we go.

TRAVIS KELCE: There we go. See?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Never not annoying.

TRAVIS KELCE: Always coachable.

Album Photography and Design

TAYLOR SWIFT: Always going to try to force a 13 into the situation. And this one was right there. It was just right there for the photos. There are a lot more photos in this, and there’s a poem in this. And basically I love the photography so much that I don’t want to show it right now because I want to keep some mystery going because that’s fun to have things still discover.

But the photos are done by Mert and Marcus, who are two of my favorite photographers. The last time and the only time I worked with them for an album cover shoot was with Reputation with that album. And I loved what they did with those photos. So I called them up for this one. And I’m so happy with the way that the photos came out for this one.

And it just basically was like, I was so proud of the music and so excited about this project from a creative standpoint that I was just like, all hands on deck. We’re going all out. This is a full send. I care about this record more than I can even overstate.

TRAVIS KELCE: It’s so much fun. I mean, I understand what she’s saying, and obviously I’ve been fortunate enough to hear every single song on here, so I know they’re all 12 bangers. It’s a lot more upbeat and it’s a lot more like fun pop excitement. And I think that’s a completely, like, I think it’s a complete 180 from a lot of the songs on Torture Poets, for sure.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Oh, yeah.

TRAVIS KELCE: And this life is more upbeat.

The Album’s Reflection of Life

JASON KELCE: Well, that’s what I was about to say. It probably, do you find that your albums mimic everything that’s happening in your personal life?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, definitely.

JASON KELCE: Your genres that you’ve done are so wide spanning between country, pop culture, and then it can get, I don’t even know, Torture Poets. It was so cathartic. It felt like for you probably to write those songs and release all that.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Definitely. And it was like, I have different goals with different albums and Torture Poets Department. My goals were strictly lyrical.

TRAVIS KELCE: And I felt like every song was a poem.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Oh, yeah. And I love that album so much. From that perspective, that was strictly what I was trying to accomplish. There was just really a full catharsis. And I loved to embrace the mess of writing from that perspective, of the rawness of that.

This, I have a totally different set of goals. I always try to do something completely different if that’s what I’m feeling at the moment. And I was feeling a complete pivot at this point in time. And I wanted the album to feel the way my life felt. And this completely matches the way that my life has felt.

And I also wanted it to be just every single song is on this album for hundreds of reasons. And you couldn’t take one out and it be the same album. You couldn’t add one and it be. It’s just right. And that focus and that kind of discipline with creating an album and keeping the bar really high is something I’ve been wanting to do for a very long time. I tend to love to write lots and lots of music, so it’s a temptation to release lots of music.

JASON KELCE: Sure.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I wanted to do an album that was so focused on quality and on the theme and everything fitting together like a perfect puzzle that these 12 songs for my 12th album, it just, I feel like we achieved that, and I’m really happy about that.

Album Theme and Goals

JASON KELCE: So you mentioned a couple of things there. First, what is the theme of the album? If you would describe it as one theme, if that’s possible.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I would say it’s everything that was going on behind the curtain.

JASON KELCE: Okay, and then what are the goals? You said something like there. What would be your main goals with this album?

TAYLOR SWIFT: My main goals were melodies that were so infectious that you’re almost angry at it and lyrics that are just as vivid but crisp and focused and completely intentional. So it’s like, I feel like we actually came together in a really beautiful way, the three of us. Shellback, Max and I, where we had a conversation about how Max was like, “I loved Folklore. I loved the storytelling on Folklore. I don’t want that to change just because we’re making these infectious anthems. I don’t want you to leave that behind.”

And I was like, “I don’t think I couldn’t if I tried.” So at this point, I’m…

JASON KELCE: I got some stuff to say.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I’m married to that kind of writing, you know? And so it was really amazing that we were able to, without doing too much overthinking, we were able to get in there, and it was just ideas flying, and all of these ideas were like, we’ve been waiting years to come back together and make this project.

TRAVIS KELCE: You are going to move. You are going to.

JASON KELCE: This album is going to be October 3rd. Do I have to wait till October 3rd?

TAYLOR SWIFT: We don’t trust you at all.

JASON KELCE: Yeah. I mean, honestly. Smart. I completely get it. Completely get it. The artwork. How do you settle on a front piece of artwork for an album?

TAYLOR SWIFT: This represents the end of my night.

JASON KELCE: Okay.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Right. So when I’m on tour, I have the same day every single day. It’s another reason why we have a very similar life. His show, his game days are the same days every day. My, his practice days are the same every day. His meetings is scheduled. My show days are the same every single day. I just happen to be in a different city, and my day ends with me in a bathtub. Not usually in a bedazzled dress.

JASON KELCE: Sure. Well, it’s got to be. It’s on the front of it.

TAYLOR SWIFT: We try to be dressed, you know.

JASON KELCE: Yeah.

The Life Behind the Show

TAYLOR SWIFT: I wanted to sort of glamorize all the different aspects of how that tour felt, and that’s how that felt. To be at the end of the night when all this has gone down. You won’t be able to get to bed till four in the morning after this, but you had to jump through 50 million hoops in this obstacle course that is your show, and you did it. You got two more in a row, but you did it tonight.

JASON KELCE: That’s all the matter.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And the reason I wanted to have it, sort of like an offstage moment as the main album cover is because this album isn’t really about what happened to me on stage. It’s about what I was going through off stage. So it’s like, oh, it’s. You know, I didn’t want to have the lights are bright. I’m on the stage as the main album cover. It’s just this. This, to me, tells more of what the actual content, contents, lyrically of the album are, which is the life. The life.

JASON KELCE: The life of the showgirl. Not.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah.

JASON KELCE: What you’re seeing. It’s the life.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It’s the life behind everything, behind it all. It’s the life beyond, beyond the show.

JASON KELCE: Okay.

TRAVIS KELCE: Which is fascinating. Travis.

JASON KELCE: I’m very jealous, very jealous that you’ve heard these songs.

TRAVIS KELCE: As you should be, Jason. As you should be.

JASON KELCE: I think it’s very fitting that it’s orange. I mean, it looks like a giant sun. Pull that thing out again. It feels like it’s going to be full of energy, like the record itself.

TRAVIS KELCE: You have no idea, Jason.

JASON KELCE: All right. Look at that thing. That thing is awesome. That is so cool. Very cool. All right, well, congratulations.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Thank you so much, everyone.

Album Announcement: TS12 “The Life of a Showgirl”

JASON KELCE: You heard it here first. You have heard it here first. October 3rd is the release date of the TS12 “The Life of a Showgirl.”

TRAVIS KELCE: Twelve bangers.

JASON KELCE: Congratulations, Taylor. I know you’ve been working on this for a long time.

TRAVIS KELCE: You’re going to be moving the entire.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Thank you so much. You can pre-order it now.

JASON KELCE: You can pre-order it now. There we go.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. On my website.

JASON KELCE: I’ll be right back, guys. You heard it here first, folks. “The Life of a Showgirl” is available now. You can pre-order it and the official release date is 10-3. That’s October 3rd.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yes, sir.

Rapid Fire Questions

JASON KELCE: All right. We are going to move to. We got to ask. You don’t have to answer. I know you’re familiar with this segment, but for anybody listening, this is a segment we often get to where our guests, we’re going to ask a bunch of rapid fire questions. They are not obligated to answer the matter of fact, they are free to tell us to fuck off if they should choose.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Okay, cool.

JASON KELCE: All right.

TRAVIS KELCE: Now, how do you feel about Jason telling his kids that cats are poisonous?

TAYLOR SWIFT: It was actually really a great challenge because as soon as I got the kids around the cats, it was my goal to prove to them that they weren’t poisonous. And there’s no better way to prove that than to just hand them Benjamin, my ragdoll cat who lets humans hold him like he’s a baby. And I mean, my favorite thing ever is just when Benny will come up to me and just go, “I find Benjamin, I find him.” And she’s just over there, just laying with him and petting him and holding him.

And they’re. The cats are so good with kids. They’re just. There’s Meredith is here. I’m like, yep. And you know what? She didn’t bite you at all, did she?

TRAVIS KELCE: No, she did.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And if she did bite you, she wouldn’t be. And still that’s not what our dad said. I’m like, well, I heard you’re getting a cat. I heard this from very well placed source.

JASON KELCE: I will neither confirm nor deny. We’ll see if you’re getting a proper cat.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You’re getting a cat that chases mice. What I have or not that.

JASON KELCE: Yes.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I think they sit around.

JASON KELCE: There’s a chance.

TRAVIS KELCE: There’s a happy medium. There’s a happy medium.

JASON KELCE: I’ve been talked into a barn cat that does not go inside, that will survive off of rodents in the field.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Are going to be sneaking that cat.

TRAVIS KELCE: There’s no way that.

JASON KELCE: We’ll see. This is why I lie to my kids though, is to. I want them to be able to be critical thinkers. They need to realize it’s absurd to think this and you handing them Benjamin and then walking them through critical thinking ability.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah.

JASON KELCE: Now all of a sudden they won’t believe something that every moron tells them on the Internet.

TRAVIS KELCE: Right?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. It was really. I know it wasn’t helpful for you, but it really it was helpful for me.

JASON KELCE: My allergies are going to be in severe, I think.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I don’t even know if the allergies are a thing, Jason. I think you just.

JASON KELCE: I mean, I’ve had an allergy test, Taylor. I’ve had an allergy test.

TRAVIS KELCE: They tell you everything.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Allegedly. I’d like to see a copy of it.

TRAVIS KELCE: Of it.

JASON KELCE: Fair enough.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I think that you just maybe don’t like.

JASON KELCE: I don’t. I mean, I think some cats I get down with, I always liked Flash growing up, the cat that we had.

TRAVIS KELCE: What did you think of?

TAYLOR SWIFT: What did you think of my three cats, my three person?

JASON KELCE: Well, the only one that would go near me was Benjamin.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. Because the other two can sense that you had resting cat.

JASON KELCE: That might be it.

TRAVIS KELCE: All right.

Baking Skills and Pop Tarts

JASON KELCE: If you had to choose to bake one thing to show off your baking skills, what would you choose?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Oh, right now it would be my cinnamon swirl sourdough.

JASON KELCE: Cinnamon swirl sourdough. I thought you were going to go Pop Tarts.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Pop Tarts? Pop Tarts. It depends on who I’m baking for the Pop Tarts. God, I just love making pop music and Pop Tarts. I love it.

JASON KELCE: I didn’t even put those two together, but that makes a ton of sense.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Been really experimenting with the flavors there because we got now wild blueberry, raspberry, strawberry, the original. And Kylie got me baking the cinnamon sugar.

JASON KELCE: You’re doing that now?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yes.

JASON KELCE: Well, if I may, we need an orange Pop Tart now. We need.

TRAVIS KELCE: What’s a. I mean an orange.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Do it. If you really want me to with an orange marmalade in the middle, and then orange extract.

JASON KELCE: Paddington Bear. Paddington Bear.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Okay, okay. No, I can get with this. I just didn’t see the vision until now, and now I think it’s kind of genius.

JASON KELCE: You’ve ruined Pop Tarts outside of yours, just so you know. Thank you.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Thank you.

TRAVIS KELCE: They’d never be the same for me either.

JASON KELCE: So now I got to try this cinnamon swirl sourdough, though, if you’re putting that above Pop Tarts.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, yeah, I’m going to send some over.

TRAVIS KELCE: It’s a banger.

JASON KELCE: Perfect.

TRAVIS KELCE: All right.

Happy Gilmore 2 Rumors

JASON KELCE: There’s a rumor that you played the bear in Happy Gilmore 2 in the scene with Travis. Penny put on him. Can you confirm or deny this rumor?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Oh, my God. I can. This is one of those ones where we’ll send it to each other and be, “Hey, did you hear? I was the bear.” And there he’s, “Yeah, you hear? We bought a house in Lake Como?” We’re just sort of at this point, we’re just of course they think I’m inside of a bear costume. I’m honored to be thought of in that context because I loved that movie so much. I watched it multiple times. Loved it so much. Whoever did the bear acting was solid bear, exquisite performance.

JASON KELCE: Bad Bunny and the bear killed that scene.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. Bad Bunny. He absolutely delighted me in that movie.

JASON KELCE: That’s so good.

TRAVIS KELCE: Would you a breastfeed?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Amazing. His comedic timing is so good. There’s this one part where they look over where they’re, “Who did that?” And his name is Oscar. His character’s name is Oscar in it.

JASON KELCE: Yes.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Right. And it’s his brother gets hit by the golf ball, and they look over and they’re, “Who did that? Who did that?”

JASON KELCE: And they do.

TAYLOR SWIFT: There’s a face that Bad Bunny makes, and they do the kind of the pan in the zoom. And it was just. I was, who thought of that? How did they know he could be that? I was, I watched it five times.

TRAVIS KELCE: Benito kills it. He really kills it.

TAYLOR SWIFT: He’s so funny. He’s so good. But he’s also.

TRAVIS KELCE: No.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I felt so much for this character. I’m so excited to go to his restaurant. I thought this was a real man. I believed this.

The Cleaning Cart Entrance

JASON KELCE: Whose idea was arriving to the Eras Tour stage via a copy cleaning cart?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Mine. That’s a weird idea that I. That’s my type of weird idea.

JASON KELCE: Where did that come from?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Well, when you’re putting on a first show of a tour like that, you’re not just performing for the entire stadium, you’re performing for the entire Internet. And so I wanted to curate and really romanticize the images that they were seeing first. So I didn’t want them to see my first outfit and my first look, which would have given away what the first era was before. You know, when I’m walking up the ramp behind the stage, there’s all these fans that are seated behind the stage at certain angles that where they would have been able to film it.

I didn’t want that to be the first thing people saw from the Eras tour. I wanted it to be the huge Lover motif. And they’re surprised and delighted by the fact that Lover’s the first era we’re doing. And they have. That’s the first time they’ve seen that Versace bodysuit all lit up. Once the lights hit that thing, it’s just. I love that outfit so much. And so it was really about preserving kind of the sanctity of a surprise moment. Right. So I kind of thought I might only do it for night one. And then I just got attached to it. I was, I just. I find this fun.

TRAVIS KELCE: It’s a perfect intro. It really is.

TAYLOR SWIFT: There’s a weird little side of me that likes sneaking around. And I think the fans found it funny, too. They’re, “What a weirdo. We’ve come to see a weirdo in concert. Why is she doing that?” I don’t know. Why did I make it look like a mop cart?

JASON KELCE: I don’t know, man.

TAYLOR SWIFT: There’s just so, if you can’t have fun with the hijinks of this thing, there’s enough stress that goes into this. If you can’t get joy from silly little things like the mop cart, man.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah, you need to live a little.

TAYLOR SWIFT: You’re doing it wrong. Live a little.

TRAVIS KELCE: Loosen up.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Get into a fake mop cart. Everyone knows you’re in there. But you’re in there. I’m sneaking around. Nobody knows I’m in here. Everyone knows you’re in there. Well, it’s one of those things, I work so hard to try to surprise fans, and they’re, I don’t want to be surprised. Sometimes they really don’t think they want to be surprised when I figure stuff out.

JASON KELCE: No, they do.

TAYLOR SWIFT: But then I know. I know that when I can really get them and surprise them, that it was so worth it, because that’s what entertainment is really. It’s just giving people something to escape, to sink their teeth into, to, we’re world building, you know, that’s what the whole tour was.

Hopefully, people never thought that we’d go on this podcast and announce an album. I was hoping that that’s something that the fans would be, that’s from left field. If we accomplish that, then that’s…

JASON KELCE: She went on with those two idiots to release.

TRAVIS KELCE: Man, things are really getting dark for Taylor.

Welcome to the NFL Moment

JASON KELCE: All right, we ask all of our guests this.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yep.

JASON KELCE: Who. What is your welcome to the NFL moment?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Oh. Oh. I’d say it was the first time I stepped on the field, which would have been when you won the AFC Championship.

TRAVIS KELCE: Baltimore.

TAYLOR SWIFT: The first season that I was with you, and it was in Baltimore. And we’re in the suite, and he’s just won the AFC championship. We’re freaking out. Everybody’s screaming. And his mom goes, all right, let’s go down to the field. And I was, what? We’re doing.

TRAVIS KELCE: What are we.

TAYLOR SWIFT: What do you mean?

JASON KELCE: What are you talking about?

TAYLOR SWIFT: We’re going. Why?

TRAVIS KELCE: I.

TAYLOR SWIFT: We’re going where? And she’s, we’re going down to the field. And I was, did he say that? That’s okay. I. Because we hadn’t talked about this. There was no, there was no, hey, if I.

TRAVIS KELCE: Didn’t want to jinx, I don’t want to jinx it.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, he doesn’t. He doesn’t jinx anything, which I respect, actually. I’m all about that, but we hadn’t had a conversation about it, so I’m, is he going to be, what are you doing down here, dude?

TRAVIS KELCE: No, it was. Mama knows. Presumptuous Mama knows best. She knew I wanted.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And so she was, trust me. He wants you there. And I was, okay. Well, she would know. And so I’m walking out onto this field, and it’s just, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. This is. It’s so. There’s so many lights.

JASON KELCE: We’re going to the Super Bowl.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I’ve never seen this many cameras. I’ve never seen, I’ve never seen this much media in my life. And I’ve seen a lot of media. And then the media sees me, and they’re. And then they just start running at me. And I’m looking at you, and you’re. And then you’re screaming into the mic. Because when there’s a mic and there’s Travis, he physically needs to scream into it.

JASON KELCE: Of course. All right. Okay.

TAYLOR SWIFT: That’s. I did. So basically, I’m experiencing this whole heightened scenario that I had no idea five minutes before I was going to be experiencing. And it was. It’s one of my most cherished memories. Because I was so proud of you.

TRAVIS KELCE: And I was so proud that you came down there to enjoy that moment.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It was so magical. It was so fun. It’s crazy. It’s crazy to get to see someone you love work that hard and then have that kind of euphoric payoff where you’re, for sure you did it. You did it. Underlined a hundred times. You did, you did it.

JASON KELCE: Human exclamation point.

TAYLOR SWIFT: What do you mean you’re going? That’s crazy. I had such a great rookie year. It was crazy.

JASON KELCE: It was a great year. What is your welcome to? I don’t know if it’s singer, being a pop star, being a performer.

TRAVIS KELCE: Yeah.

JASON KELCE: What is your welcome to the industry moment in that regard?

Welcome to the Industry

TAYLOR SWIFT: Oh, my God, man. I never really. I actually never really allowed myself to feel the, you’ve arrived thing.

JASON KELCE: Sure.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I’ve just now started to be able to really be in a moment when I’m in the moment. That’s why I’m so glad that the Eras Tour happened when I’m an adult, because I was able to completely and totally soak in these moments. Well, I’m planning, obviously, what I’m doing next in the show, but when I’m at the end of that show and I’m standing there taking it in, that’s me a hundred percent present.

But, you know, starting to do this when I was putting out my first album when I was 16, I was always onto the next plan and that I get joy in planning. So it’s not like I wasn’t happy with that, but I never allowed myself to say, you’ve arrived, you’ve made it. I was always, how are you getting. How are you going to get to make the next project?

And it was all about. It was all about the higher I climbed, the more creative control I had and the more fun I had making stuff. Right. So it was not like the altitude I was reaching. There was more pressure every step of the way, but I was getting more creative control and freedom every time. And I. And that is why it felt so much more special to keep working harder to get to new levels.

It’s not, oh, I can afford to buy this or whatever. Not to discount that, but for me, every time I got higher up on a new rung of the ladder, I could make stuff in a more focused and free and autonomous way.

JASON KELCE: What else would you want?

TAYLOR SWIFT: As an artist, I never really let myself be, I’ve made it. But the Eras Tour, I was, oh, this is different. This is not, this is nothing like what I’ve ever experienced before. It was so much better than anything.

TRAVIS KELCE: Literally. While she’s doing that, she’s still creating the next thing.

JASON KELCE: Yeah, that’s what’s crazy to me.

TAYLOR SWIFT: I love it. I love it.

JASON KELCE: Live show Sweden. Live show Sweden. Live show Sweden.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah, that’s what I know. I adore what I do. I absolutely love it. And I love then taking the songs and writing a treatment for a music video and directing the music video. All of the things that I get to do now, now I’m so grateful for the ability to create. That’s still what drives all of it.

TRAVIS KELCE: Well, Swifties appreciate your dedication.

JASON KELCE: We are very grateful for this as well.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Thanks guys.

Questions for the Kelce Brothers

JASON KELCE: Alrighty. Do you have any questions for us? We’re kind of out of the questions for this section. Is there anything you wanted to ask Travis or. I, I mean, you have a. Yeah. You put Travis on the spot right now. Yeah, I know.

TRAVIS KELCE: God.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Well, I, I, I don’t know. I was wondering how that wax is growing in.

JASON KELCE: Because I haven’t talked.

TAYLOR SWIFT: To you in a couple weeks about it and I just feel like it’s really important for you to make sure that those hairs.

TRAVIS KELCE: You’re getting a little itchy, bud.

JASON KELCE: No, it’s fine.

TAYLOR SWIFT: When you go, when you go from getting a little prickly fur to, to no fur at all.

TRAVIS KELCE: And you can wear us. Because we got some thick hair.

TAYLOR SWIFT: It’s important to figure out. I mean, just bear, don’t tell us. Are we, how are we doing?

JASON KELCE: We’re doing good. We’re doing good.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Are we managing it?

JASON KELCE: Well, we’re not managing it. That’s how we’re managing it is we’re not managing it.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Okay.

JASON KELCE: It’s fortunate for me my hair grows fast.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yep.

JASON KELCE: It’s coarse. It’s got a texture that was difficult for about a couple weeks. Very itchy. But we’ve passed that phase now and.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Are we going to do it again, do you think?

JASON KELCE: I don’t think so. And I listen shout out to the people in downtown Philadelphia. They did a great job. I’m not, I don’t think it’s going to be a recurring bit.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Yeah. It was the best it could have been.

JASON KELCE: I also don’t think I’m going to find myself in a Speedo again. Jason walked into a door that said European wax and was treated with the utmost respect and class.

TAYLOR SWIFT: He had to try it. I wanted to know. That’s life. You know, it feels. It feels important that you did it. And also it’s because now you know. You know, I know what I always say that after. After I make unfortunate judgment calls.

JASON KELCE: Right.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Well, now I know.

JASON KELCE: Now I know.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Had to try it.

JASON KELCE: The one thing I didn’t try.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Wasn’t great. Wasn’t great. Wouldn’t do it again.

JASON KELCE: Yep. Yep.

TAYLOR SWIFT: And on that note, now you know. Thanks for having me.

Wrapping Up

JASON KELCE: Tay. Thank you so much for hopping on. Oh, my gosh. All right. Thank you so much for hopping on. You are the best. This has been a blast. I think Kylie enjoyed being the number one most viewed episode for her time that she had. This is. Don’t you do that to Kylie.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Throw Kylie under the bus. You’re going to pay for it.

TRAVIS KELCE: Why didn’t Elliot already doing it?

TAYLOR SWIFT: Find out.

JASON KELCE: That’s right. And that’s a wrap, folks, on another episode of New Heights. Thank you to our guest Taylor Swift for joining us on the show. Life of the Showgirl comes out October 3rd. Pre order is now available on TaylorSwift.com reminder. New Heights will be back to kick off the edible season August 27th. Make sure you subscribe to the New Heights channel on YouTube and follow new Heights in the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. You can listen to new episodes episode to New Heights early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

TRAVIS KELCE: All right, now, once again, New Heights, a wondery show. Follow the show on all social media at new height show with 1s. And thanks to our production and crew always for your your editing skills and making us look entirely better than what we are. Taylor got to see this firsthand, actually.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Thanks, guys. It’s been great.

TRAVIS KELCE: To the 92 percenters and to the Swifties. We love you guys. We’ll see you guys next time.

TAYLOR SWIFT: Bye.

JASON KELCE: Peace. All right. I. I don’t know where to go from here.

TAYLOR SWIFT: There was confetti all over. Oh, this is when the cats taste something they don’t that they’re confused by. This is my favorite impression. The cat ate something. It doesn’t know what it is. This guy gets me every time. Gets you every time, man. I will laugh at that. I will fall off the couch laughing at that if he’ll do it.

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