Transcript of Madonna Interview: Howard Stern Show

So I did keep on, but it was really a bizarre experience.

HOWARD STERN: I don’t even know, like when that kind of pressure comes on you— and you’ve had pressure in your career. You know, you go out, you do a video, and the Catholic Church is after you. And then you do another video.

MADONNA: I get excommunicated.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah, right.

MADONNA: Yeah, that’s happened 3 times, by the way. But it’s okay.

HOWARD STERN: But that— is it okay?

MADONNA: I don’t care if the Vatican thinks that I’m Catholic material or not. That’s cool with me.

HOWARD STERN: Right.

MADONNA: But I find it really strange that people gave me a hard time for adopting children.

HOWARD STERN: It’s amazing. And I didn’t even understand their argument. I truly didn’t.

MADONNA: They were just giving me a hard time.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I don’t think there was an argument.

MADONNA: No.

Always Fighting a Battle

HOWARD STERN: Do you think people generally perceive you as a person they’re against? Like, it seems to me you’re always fighting a battle with people, and it just sucks. It just has to be exhausting, and that’s why I would crawl into a hole.

MADONNA: I’ve certainly wanted to crawl into a hole, and that was one of those moments. Are you asking me why people give me a hard time?

HOWARD STERN: Yeah, they do though, don’t they? I mean, people think you’re doing something to shock them, and people think when I’m on the radio that I’m trying to shock them. That’s what they think my goal is.

MADONNA: Well, sometimes you are. I mean, you certainly have in the past.

HOWARD STERN: But do you believe that you’re shocking?

MADONNA: I think that thinking for yourself and having a strong opinion and going against the grain is shocking to most people, certainly in my business.

HOWARD STERN: But aren’t you shocked when people are shocked by you? Aren’t you going out there just to entertain them? You want to make people feel good. You want to sing a song. You want to dance. You want to entertain them. And yet they’re being shocked by you. I’m shocked that anyone could be shocked by anything I say.

MADONNA: But we live in a very puritanical country. You do understand that, right? Killing is okay, but— right, you know.

LADY INTERVIEWER: So you knew you were taking that on when you did “Like a Prayer” and “Like a Virgin”?

MADONNA: And I didn’t know to the extent. One never does.

The “Like a Virgin” Performance Story

MADONNA: I mean, when I did “Like a Virgin,” when I performed it live for the first time, actually my shoe fell off on stage. I’d come down the wedding cake and my shoe fell off. I was like, oh shit, I can’t dance in one shoe. Can I say shit?

HOWARD STERN: Yeah, sure. Yeah.

MADONNA: And I was like, how am I going to play this out? So I just dove for it on the ground. And when I dove for it, my dress went up and my butt was showing. Now, can you imagine? Like, everyone’s showing their butt now. But back then, nobody saw anyone’s butt. And I didn’t know my skirt was up. So I proceeded to sing the song laying down on the ground. I was just making the best of a situation. Which is what I do. Like, when I got yanked off the stage by my cape the other day, I’m hardwired to just keep going.

So anyway, after I got offstage during that performance, my manager was white as a ghost. And he looked at me, he said, “Do you know what you just did?” And I said, “Yeah, I sang a song and I lost my shoe on stage.” And he’s like, “No, your butt was showing for the entire song.” He said, “Your career is over.”

LADY INTERVIEWER: Oh no.

MADONNA: Oh, he did.

HOWARD STERN: Who was your manager at that point?

MADONNA: His name is Freddie DeMann.

HOWARD STERN: Right. So he says to you, your career is over.

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: And your career was everything to you.

MADONNA: It was just starting out. I was like, oh yeah, okay.

HOWARD STERN: And did you believe him that your career was over?

MADONNA: Kind of.

HOWARD STERN: How do you deal with that?

MADONNA: Well, I felt really bad, but I didn’t do it on purpose.

HOWARD STERN: Right. But you still feel bad. And does a panic set in? I’m going to lose everything. I’m trying so hard here. I didn’t mean to be controversial.

MADONNA: No, I’m not like that. I mean, I wasn’t that apologetic. I was just like, well, f* it. I just made a mistake and that’s the way it is.

HOWARD STERN: But you don’t go somewhere and cry and say, I just lost my career?

MADONNA: No.

HOWARD STERN: See, I was just terrified all the time because I was told I was going to lose my career, and I just know that pressure.

MADONNA: I think that when that happens to you year after year, decade after decade, at this point you just keep— it’s just noise. At this point it’s noise. People just like to give me shit.

Growing Up Without a Mother

HOWARD STERN: When you were growing up— I’m going back to when you were a little girl.

MADONNA: I’m still growing up.

HOWARD STERN: You are still growing up. We all are.

MADONNA: And if I add another pillow, I’m going to keep growing up.

HOWARD STERN: Do you need another pillow?

LADY INTERVIEWER: There’s a second pillow.

MADONNA: No, no, I feel good.

HOWARD STERN: I feel good. That’s all right.

MADONNA: There’s one there.

HOWARD STERN: This is for me to hug. So when you were feeling insecure and stuff, when you were growing up, all right, and you’re from a large family— it’s pretty legendary that you had a rough childhood and that your mother died. When your mother dies and you’re 5 years old, it’s a black hole in your heart, and that never goes away.

MADONNA: Nope.

HOWARD STERN: And the fact that you have kids now, how do you learn how to be a mother if you’ve never had a mother? And how do you get that in check?

MADONNA: That’s a good question.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah.

MADONNA: I think you just learn as you go, and I tried to be the mother that I didn’t have. I tried to be all those things that I wanted. I try to be nurturing. I try to be their friend. I try to be there for them. I try to give them advice. Sometimes I make mistakes. Sometimes things don’t go the way I planned. And I asked my sister for her advice because she was raised by my grandmother and she’s a good mother. I don’t know.

HOWARD STERN: Your father raised you essentially.

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: The part that I think is so—

MADONNA: When he wasn’t working.

HOWARD STERN: Your father married the housekeeper?

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: And when that happened, she was your stepmother. You hated her. You couldn’t stand her.

MADONNA: Okay, you’re going there.

HOWARD STERN: Right?

MADONNA: You’re just going there, Howard.

HOWARD STERN: I am. I’m curious because to me, this is the most fascinating part of— and if you’re not comfortable going there, I’ll leave it.

MADONNA: I mean, I was almost 6 when my mom died. So I was almost 9 when my dad remarried. And she was our housekeeper for a bit, but she disappeared. It’s a long story.

HOWARD STERN: You mean she left you?

MADONNA: I mean, she was our housekeeper, but she had to go. She was pregnant. It’s a long story. This is like a soap opera. She was pregnant, but she went away to have her baby with somebody else’s. It was very complicated. Then we had other housekeepers, and then she showed up and my dad said he’s marrying her. So we were really shocked by it because we were still mourning and grieving my mother’s death, which my father never spoke about. So it was—

HOWARD STERN: He never sat you down and said, your mother died and—

MADONNA: No.

HOWARD STERN: And this is— and you couldn’t understand too.

MADONNA: No, he never said, how do you feel about it? We never had a group hug. We never had a cry. We never had— no.

HOWARD STERN: Isn’t that amazing?

MADONNA: My father’s very stoic and old school. And I think he was devastated too. And I don’t think he had words for his pain.

Growing Up Without a Mother

HOWARD STERN: My mother lost her mother when she was 9. And living with a woman who had lost her mother was maybe the most difficult thing. Because sometimes I felt I had to be her father. Sometimes maybe I had to do that. And it was a very difficult thing for me. That’s why I asked you about it. That’s why I was so curious about it. Because I know how difficult that is.

But the picture I get of you as a kid is like 2 completely different pictures. One was of like a rebel, right? At school, like you would be the kid who would hang out with the gay dance teacher and he would tell you stuff. And then you were also the valedictorian or something almost. Like you were this super student. You got straight A’s.

MADONNA: Well, I was smart, but I didn’t socialize really. I didn’t have friends.

HOWARD STERN: Why do you think that was?

MADONNA: Because I just thought everyone was an idiot.

HOWARD STERN: Were they? When you said— is your IQ 140? I read that.

MADONNA: Honestly, I don’t know what my IQ is. I don’t know. People have said that, but I don’t remember. I think I did take an IQ test. I just don’t remember. I’m not good with numbers. Right.

HOWARD STERN: But you had a high IQ and you were a straight-A student.

MADONNA: Yeah, but that’s not really the measure of intelligence, is it?

HOWARD STERN: Sometimes— I mean, a high IQ is a measure of intelligence. If you have a 140, you’re a genius.

MADONNA: Okay, well, let’s not get carried away. But anyway, I always felt like an outsider growing up. I don’t know what— I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that I didn’t have a mother and I was the eldest daughter. So I had a lot of responsibilities. There wasn’t a lot of free time in my life. It was school, come home, housework, help with dinner, do your schoolwork, clean the house, take care of the little kids, blah, blah, blah. My house was not a fun place to bring people to.

Number one. Number two, we first grew up in Pontiac, which was a very racially mixed, mostly Black environment and neighborhood. And we— we went to Catholic schools and we wore uniforms and that was normal life to me. And then when I went to high school, we moved to a suburb and it was all white and we were living above our means.

HOWARD STERN: Did you feel out of place in a white community?

MADONNA: Yes, I did. And I felt like— I felt very— because now I didn’t have a uniform, so I was aware that my clothes were not as cool as everybody else’s or as nice as everybody else’s or as varied as everyone else’s. I mean, I wore the same clothes every day, and I was like, ooh.

HOWARD STERN: When you go to an all-white school though, do you start to withdraw?

MADONNA: I just didn’t fit in. I just felt like I was with rich people, and I wasn’t, and I felt out of place, and I felt like they were members of country clubs. They had manicures and they wore nice clothes and I didn’t fit in. I felt like a country bumpkin. I was resentful. So because I didn’t fit in, because I felt like people were judging me all the time, I just chose not to socialize with people.

Leaving Michigan for New York

HOWARD STERN: And then you graduated early from high school, right?

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah. And then you decide to go to New York, which is really freaky. Well, you went to college.

MADONNA: No, I went to University of Michigan for a year. I was a dance major and I— was your mother a dancer? No, she wasn’t. She was a housewife.

HOWARD STERN: Housewife?

MADONNA: Yes.

LADY INTERVIEWER: So was there any musical stuff going on in your family?

MADONNA: My parents were very musical people, people playing instruments and singing all around me, and my uncle was a very good painter, so I was always surrounded by the arts and encouraged to be interested in the arts, but no.

HOWARD STERN: But the way you saw your future and your way out of Michigan was you were going to be a dancer.

MADONNA: Professional dancer.

HOWARD STERN: Professional dancer. You never even imagined you’d be a singer, right?

MADONNA: Nope.

HOWARD STERN: Isn’t that weird?

MADONNA: It’s very weird.

HOWARD STERN: And then you go to college and some teacher says to you, hey, why don’t you go to Alvin Ailey and go dance?

MADONNA: No, he just said, “You’re too good for this. You don’t need this. This is an environment for people who don’t know what they want to do with their lives. Go. Go to New York.”

HOWARD STERN: So when you came to New York, did you feel like you finally were at the place you should be, like at home?

MADONNA: I feel like I plugged my finger into an electric socket. First I was in shock. Yeah, as one would be coming from the Midwest to Manhattan. Yeah, I didn’t know a soul, and I didn’t know what my future was. And I was super friendly, as you are when you come from the Midwest. I was like saying hi to everybody on the street like a dork.

HOWARD STERN: The story I heard was you had $35 or something in your pocket, you’re wearing your winter coat in summer. Yes, you get off the bus, and like, you don’t even have a place to live, and some dude walks up to you and asks you why you’re wearing your winter coat. You talk to him, and he says, “Come live on my couch.” And you lived on his couch?

MADONNA: Kind of.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Wow. That’s—

HOWARD STERN: Can you imagine?

MADONNA: I know. The angels were protecting me.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Right.

HOWARD STERN: They really— was the guy good to you?

MADONNA: I met him in a flea market. He was— I was just wandering around the streets. I actually took a taxi into the city and I asked the taxi— it was my first plane ride and my first taxi drive. So I said, “Take me to the center.”

HOWARD STERN: Yeah.

MADONNA: So he dropped me off in Times Square. So you can imagine me looking up at all the skyscrapers and all the crazy people and the homeless people. New York was very different, Times Square, at that time.

HOWARD STERN: Tell your father your plans? Like, I’m going to New York with $35 in my pocket?

MADONNA: He didn’t know about how much money I had, but he just said, “No way you’re going to give up a scholarship to the University of Michigan. Well, you don’t have my blessing and I’m not going to finance it, so do what you want. You’re on your own.” Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: And that’s a lot to walk away from. You had a full scholarship to University of Michigan, which is unbelievable.

MADONNA: No, I didn’t. I had a partial scholarship. I had to work, but he’s old-fashioned and he wanted me to get a degree. He didn’t care in what. He wanted me to be a lawyer or a doctor or whatever, normal things.

HOWARD STERN: Right.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Ooh, I know, not your cup of tea.

HOWARD STERN: Didn’t you ever—

MADONNA: I’d rather be a schoolteacher.

HOWARD STERN: But Madonna, didn’t you ever crave like normalcy? Like, didn’t you ever say to yourself, like, it would be such an easier life if I did become a doctor?

MADONNA: Every 3 days I crave it. Every 3 days I go, “That’s it, I’m moving to a cabin and I’m living in the forest and no one’s going to f* with me anymore,” right?

HOWARD STERN: And why do you think you keep coming back and not doing that? Because you could do it.

MADONNA: Because I’m an artist and I’m tortured and I like— I’m a masochist and I like to create. I don’t know. I don’t know. Maybe one day I will.

Work, Hobbies, and Fearlessness

HOWARD STERN: Is your schedule now kind of like, will you take a couple of months off and not work for a while? Can you do that? Or will you just— you will never do that?

MADONNA: No, take a couple. I can’t take a couple of months off now because I just had to put a record out.

HOWARD STERN: No, I don’t mean now, but I’m saying like, have you ever gone a year or two and just lived your life and not worked?

MADONNA: Means like just—

HOWARD STERN: Just hang?

MADONNA: No.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Just be a mom?

MADONNA: Never did that.

HOWARD STERN: Can’t do it?

MADONNA: It’s not that I— I don’t know if I— maybe I could.

HOWARD STERN: Do you have any hobbies?

MADONNA: I think about it. Yes, I do.

HOWARD STERN: What do you do?

MADONNA: I ride horses.

HOWARD STERN: Like horse jumping?

MADONNA: And I— yes. And I ski.

HOWARD STERN: Don’t you think horse jumping is insane?

MADONNA: I do dangerous things.

HOWARD STERN: When Christopher Reeve had that accident, did you say to yourself, I’m not going to jump horses anymore? Or are you fearless?

MADONNA: People get hit by buses. I mean, you can’t let that stuff stop you. I mean, I wear a helmet. I try to be careful.

HOWARD STERN: And has anyone ever said to you, “Madonna, don’t do that, don’t ride horses?” Has anyone, like, said, “I’m worried about you?”

LADY INTERVIEWER: Skiing is dangerous.

MADONNA: Yeah, but all the things I like are dangerous. This job is dangerous. Yeah, but who’s laughing behind me?

HOWARD STERN: That’s Fred.

LADY INTERVIEWER: That’s Fred back there.

HOWARD STERN: He’s upset about you. He doesn’t like it. Yes, he’s worried you’re going to hurt yourself on that horse. I’m even worried. I barely know you now.

MADONNA: Don’t worry about me.

Arriving in New York: The Early Struggle

HOWARD STERN: So you get to New York, because I want to make this point, because people think this shit happens overnight and it doesn’t. Oh, it doesn’t. It’s hard.

MADONNA: Yes.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah. And it’s not really luck.

MADONNA: It’s a lot of hard work, sweat, and tears.

HOWARD STERN: So you come to New York to be a dancer. You’re living on some guy’s couch.

MADONNA: Yeah, but that only lasted for like 5 days max.

HOWARD STERN: So how do you make money?

Early Struggles in New York

MADONNA: I went to start going to auditions and I got into some dance companies, got a partial scholarship to the Alvin Ailey School, and then I started just making little bits of money. And then I was taking shit jobs. I did everything. I worked at Dunkin’ Donuts. I was the hat chick.

HOWARD STERN: Did you get fired from Dunkin’ Donuts in one day?

MADONNA: No, I think I stayed there for maybe a week.

HOWARD STERN: Were you fired because you squirted jelly over everyone?

MADONNA: I was playing with the jelly squirter machine, yeah.

HOWARD STERN: And they just got pissed off at you?

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: Had you played your cards right, you could have been a manager at Dunkin’ Donuts.

MADONNA: I could be the CEO of Dunkin’ Donuts.

HOWARD STERN: So some guy comes up and says, hey, you’re fired because you’re not taking the job seriously.

MADONNA: That’s right.

HOWARD STERN: Right.

MADONNA: Well, you know what I got fired for at the Russian Tea Room? I was a very good hat check girl, I must say. I got fired for wearing fishnets.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Is that right? Yeah.

MADONNA: And I couldn’t— I’m like, but you can’t even see my legs. I’m behind a door.

HOWARD STERN: Because they told you not to wear fishnets, but you said— but it’s your nature to say, f* you, I’m going to wear fishnets.

MADONNA: Well, it’s just my nature to do the opposite of what people tell me to do, even if it’s going to cost you a job. I didn’t know they were going to fire me, right? It was just like a dress code.

HOWARD STERN: Did you explain to them you were Madonna?

MADONNA: I wasn’t Madonna then. Oh, I mean, I was, but not—

HOWARD STERN: They didn’t recognize it.

MADONNA: They didn’t see the future.

Surviving New York

HOWARD STERN: But New York was a scary place, right?

MADONNA: Oh my God—

HOWARD STERN: You recently talked about getting attacked. You were raped in New York and all. I mean, it was pretty dreadful.

MADONNA: Yeah, yeah.

HOWARD STERN: The worst.

MADONNA: Everything bad. My house, my apartments kept getting robbed. I kept getting everything taken from me. I was attacked in the street by a bum one night. I was— it’s true, I was raped. I mean, I guess people know that now. It was the first year I lived in New York was crazy.

HOWARD STERN: It wasn’t a date rape kind of thing. It was the kind of thing where it was some just guy off the street and attacked you.

MADONNA: No, my stupid friendliness, just chatting with somebody and asking them— I needed money because I was going to a dance class, and the door was locked. And I needed money for the payphone. And he gave it to me. And then he’s like, well, let me walk you to the phone. He was a very friendly guy. And talking on the phone, and the phone was ringing. And he’s like, well, I just live right across the street. Do you want to— you can make a phone call from my house. I was like, oh, that’s really nice of you. I mean, that’s— hi, I’m from Michigan.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Right.

MADONNA: So I trusted everybody. Anyway, the rest is not worth talking about.

LADY INTERVIEWER: What kept you in New York with all those bad things happening?

HOWARD STERN: I wouldn’t stay after that. I would just go home.

MADONNA: Well, have you ever been to Rochester, Michigan?

HOWARD STERN: No, it’s really bad. No, I like small towns.

MADONNA: I do too, but I just didn’t want to go back.

HOWARD STERN: You never went to the cops. You never did any of that, right? And I think most women are actually in that predicament, honestly, because I know many women who have had a similar experience. It seems like it’s an epidemic.

MADONNA: Well, I was told that if I wanted to press charges, that, you know, physical examination, and I have to go before the court, and they’re going to ask you all these personal questions. Like, so— you’ve already been violated, so do you want to talk about it? Do you want to make it public? Do you want to— no, it’s just not worth it. It’s too humiliating.

On Protecting Her Voice

HOWARD STERN: What are you drinking?

MADONNA: Tea for my throat because I have a cold.

HOWARD STERN: Are you neurotic about your voice?

MADONNA: I am. I have to sing later on today.

HOWARD STERN: Where are you going?

MADONNA: I’m going to rehearsal in Brooklyn.

HOWARD STERN: Can’t you cancel that if you’re sick?

MADONNA: See, that’s my other guilt. I don’t cancel. I don’t quit.

HOWARD STERN: But if you’re sick, you can at this point just say, hey, I’ll skip rehearsal and just relax?

LADY INTERVIEWER: Yeah, might not—

MADONNA: Or I’ll go to rehearsal and I won’t sing full voice. I’ll just do the dance rehearsal part. I’ll watch what’s going on.

HOWARD STERN: Are you neurotic about your voice to the point like you have silent days and then you worry every minute you’re going to get sick? Are you worried about germs?

MADONNA: I like Purell.

HOWARD STERN: I Purell all day because if my voice goes, I can’t do this job.

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: So we become very neurotic about our voices.

MADONNA: Yes, we need our voices.

HOWARD STERN: We need our voices. And you walk around all day miserable, right?

MADONNA: Well, sometimes I find myself yelling at people in my house. I’m like, wait a second, why am I yelling? Okay. I can’t. And I just press— instead of yelling, I just press the page all button on my phone and I very quietly say, “Can someone please come upstairs right now?”

On Happiness and Feeling Trapped

HOWARD STERN: Are you miserable?

LADY INTERVIEWER: What?

HOWARD STERN: Are you miserable?

MADONNA: No.

HOWARD STERN: You’re happy?

MADONNA: What a thing to say.

HOWARD STERN: Are you happy?

MADONNA: I am happy at times.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah.

MADONNA: I mean, there’s lots of different gradations. But in general, what would you say?

LADY INTERVIEWER: Happy is a big word.

HOWARD STERN: Do you go on tour to promote an album and then halfway through the tour you just go, I’m f*ing miserable. I hate this.

MADONNA: Yeah, of course I do. But I mean, that’s normal too. Because when you get exhausted, when you get into the cycle of having to do things, sometimes you get tired. Sometimes you don’t feel well. There’s like 20,000 people waiting in a sports arena for you. The show must go on. And that expectation sometimes can make you— I don’t know, miserable is a big word too. Just—

HOWARD STERN: I’m just looking for other people who are miserable.

MADONNA: Yeah.

LADY INTERVIEWER: You’re looking for other people?

HOWARD STERN: Yeah, right. I just want to know other people who are miserable.

MADONNA: No, I wouldn’t say I’m miserable. But I do feel trapped sometimes.

HOWARD STERN: Explain that to me, by trapped. In other words, you have to do this.

MADONNA: Because once you go on tour and you sell tickets, you have to show up. You have to give people the greatest show.

HOWARD STERN: And do you still worry—

MADONNA: Sometimes you don’t feel like it.

HOWARD STERN: Do you worry about reviews? Like, when you go out on tour, do you care if a critic says, oh, Madonna wasn’t on her game that night?

MADONNA: Nah.

HOWARD STERN: You don’t read any of that? Do you go on Twitter or any of that stuff?

MADONNA: No. I just— I have an Instagram account, and I go on Twitter from time to time.

On David Letterman and Tupac Shakur

HOWARD STERN: Madonna, do you like Letterman? I watched some of those old interviews, and I can’t tell if you like him or you’re just kind of annoyed.

MADONNA: That’s how I flirt with people.

HOWARD STERN: Is that the flirt?

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: Oh, it seemed contentious and uncomfortable.

MADONNA: Well, one time I was mad at him, but when I said the F-word a lot, but the rest of the time was good.

HOWARD STERN: You were really mad at him?

MADONNA: No, you know what?

LADY INTERVIEWER: I wasn’t.

MADONNA: I don’t know what I think. I don’t know. I was in a weird mood that day.

HOWARD STERN: You flirted with—

MADONNA: I was dating Tupac Shakur at the time, and the thing is, he got me all riled up about life in general. So when I went on his show, I was feeling very gangster.

HOWARD STERN: I didn’t know you dated Tupac Shakur.

LADY INTERVIEWER: That was a surprise.

HOWARD STERN: That’s shocking to me. That’s never been out there, I don’t think. Was it? Was that out there? That you dated him?

MADONNA: I think people know if you’re in the know.

HOWARD STERN: I kind of know everyone you dated.

MADONNA: Really?

LADY INTERVIEWER: You think you do?

HOWARD STERN: I think I do.

MADONNA: Give me the list, baby.

The List of Loves

HOWARD STERN: All right, you ready? Warren Beatty.

MADONNA: Okay, everybody knows that.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Yeah, take an easy one.

HOWARD STERN: Warren Beatty. All right, I felt you were really in love with him as an observer.

MADONNA: I was.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah, I felt that was love. You cared about him.

MADONNA: I did.

HOWARD STERN: When those things break up, do you go into a funk? Do you just— can a guy wreck you?

MADONNA: Super personal interview. My goodness.

HOWARD STERN: I know. I do need to know these things.

MADONNA: Why?

HOWARD STERN: We’d like to know that you get your heart broken.

MADONNA: Have you heard my new record?

HOWARD STERN: We’re going to get to that new record. By the way, I’m very complimentary about this record. I think it’s one of your finest.

MADONNA: Oh, thank you. Of course, I’ve had my heart broken many times.

HOWARD STERN: Wait, I was naming the people you did. Sean Penn.

MADONNA: Well, I married Sean and I married Guy Ritchie, and so I was in love with them, of course.

On Marriage and Independence

HOWARD STERN: Do you see a psychiatrist?

MADONNA: I used to.

HOWARD STERN: Do you ever question yourself why your marriages can’t stay forever, or do you just not believe in that?

MADONNA: Why they didn’t work?

HOWARD STERN: Yeah, why they didn’t work.

MADONNA: I did. I figured it out.

HOWARD STERN: What’s the answer?

MADONNA: Why they didn’t work?

HOWARD STERN: Yeah.

MADONNA: Oh, I’d rather not go into that.

HOWARD STERN: Really?

MADONNA: Yeah.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Was it different with your children?

MADONNA: With children, I would be revealing things about those other people.

HOWARD STERN: It was bad?

MADONNA: No, they just weren’t right. They weren’t right in the end. I mean, I didn’t want to stay unhappy and miserable.

HOWARD STERN: No, I know.

MADONNA: So it’s very hard if you’re an artist and a creative person and a woman, an independent, strong, independent female, to be in a marriage with a man who isn’t threatened by that and is comfortable with all the things that I stand for and what I do.

HOWARD STERN: And you need a super successful guy. The way I see it.

MADONNA: Super successful. Well, Sean was successful. I mean, successful. Yeah, but I mean successful and evolved in a way that— in the way that you view women. And, you know, does that exist? Some guys just want like someone to stay home and take care of the kids, and that’s valid.

HOWARD STERN: But that’s not you. No, no. And it’s never going to be you.

MADONNA: No.

Kids, Influences, and Holy Water

HOWARD STERN: How big an influence do your kids have on your work? When you said recently that your daughter is uncomfortable with some of the sexual— there’s a song on the album about your vagina. You reference your vagina in the song. Yeah, I’ll tell you which song.

MADONNA: Well, I say pussy.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah, Holy Water.

MADONNA: Yep, but it’s a joke.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Do the kids understand?

HOWARD STERN: Do the kids understand?

MADONNA: It’s ironic. Bless yourself and genuflect. You know, it’s like mixing up religion and sex, which is something I often do in my work. It’s not meant to be an overtly sexual song.

HOWARD STERN: I mean, but the kids can take it the wrong way.

MADONNA: They can, but they’re used to it by now. I mean, they do roll their eyes a little bit. I’m actually, you know, I think my son likes the beat of Holy Water and Sex. They like the music. He— they did roll their eyes a little bit about the lyrics, but they’re used to it. I’m their mom at this point, right?

Michael Jackson

HOWARD STERN: Did you find comfort in a friend like Michael Jackson? Because he’s, you know, again, he’s like on par with you in the sense that he’s sold a lot of records. You’re both like, wherever you go, people are taking pictures of you.

LADY INTERVIEWER: He’s so incredibly famous.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah. And I remember you went to the Academy Awards with him. He was your date. Was he someone that you could reveal yourself to and really talk to?

MADONNA: Well, I could certainly relate to him on many levels, many of the things that you brought up. But he was also a very shy person. And he grew up in a very different way than I did. I mean, he was famous since he was a child. And I think he never really had a childhood. He was painfully shy. So we didn’t have a relationship that was so much about me revealing myself to him, but it was more about trying to, like, making fun of the crazy world that we were working and living in. You know what I mean?

HOWARD STERN: Right. So he wasn’t a guy you could sit there and talk to and, like, someone who you could confide in. That wasn’t him.

MADONNA: To a certain extent, but we didn’t talk about our childhoods.

HOWARD STERN: Right.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Did he confide in you as well? Was he— were you somebody he could call?

MADONNA: I think he did. I think he felt eternally tortured by people, and I think he was never happy with the way he looked, and it was hard for him to look into people’s eyes. And it was important for me to say, to let him know that I wasn’t judging him, you know what I mean?

HOWARD STERN: Was there ever a time you would have recorded with him?

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: Did you?

MADONNA: No.

Mike Tyson and the Double Date

HOWARD STERN: No, no. Mike Tyson is on your new record, right?

MADONNA: He was fun and easy to work with.

HOWARD STERN: You met Mike when he was married to Robin Givens and you were married to Sean Penn.

MADONNA: Yep, we went on a double date.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah, you went to the movies.

MADONNA: We went out to dinner, right? The men got tremendously drunk, right? And, as they do.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Sounds like fun.

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: Do you hate when men get drunk? Are they disgusting when they get drunk?

MADONNA: No, I mean, it depends. People handle alcohol different ways. Some people are really fun when they’re drunk, and some people are disgusting, male and female.

HOWARD STERN: Do you drink?

MADONNA: I do, but not much. But I’m pretty fun when I’m drunk.

HOWARD STERN: You are?

MADONNA: Yeah, because usually I’m very, you know, in control and, you know—

HOWARD STERN: What do you mean you’re fun when you’re drunk? What happens?

MADONNA: Fun means I’m just fun. Fun means I stop giving a s* about so much and stop being so neurotic about everything and just let loose a little bit.

Drugs and Devil Pray

HOWARD STERN: Did drugs play into your whole thing coming up? I mean, were you—

MADONNA: No, I’m not a drug person.

HOWARD STERN: You never took ecstasy?

MADONNA: I did.

HOWARD STERN: I would think so because you have to go to clubs and sort of see what everyone’s doing, and ecstasy was such a big— I figured—

MADONNA: In the ’80s I did. I tried it a few times, and it was tremendously fun, I must say. But I felt so ill for so many days after taking it that it wasn’t worth it.

HOWARD STERN: You’re really super careful about your body, about what you eat, right? I would think like drugs would just be so not— you don’t do drugs now?

MADONNA: No.

HOWARD STERN: You won’t smoke weed?

MADONNA: No smoking, nothing.

HOWARD STERN: Because you don’t want smoke in your lungs?

MADONNA: Yeah, and I also don’t like being stoned.

HOWARD STERN: Because you’re paranoid?

MADONNA: No, I just don’t like that fuzzy feeling you get.

HOWARD STERN: I hate it too. I can’t do any of that.

MADONNA: I’m just not an herbalist and I never will be.

HOWARD STERN: Did you ever try acid?

MADONNA: Oh no, I would be afraid to do that. I know some people who had some really bad acid trips and actually didn’t ever really come back from them. So I wouldn’t know.

HOWARD STERN: That’s the truth.

MADONNA: Not for me.

HOWARD STERN: The song on your new album, “Devil Pray” — “Devil Pray” is anti-drug, right?

MADONNA: More or less. Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: This is a personal song to you. Who are you warning in this — kids? Just don’t do it?

MADONNA: It’s not kids, it’s everyone. I’m not judging people that take drugs. It’s just like a lot of people think they’re getting closer to God or having these epiphanies when they take drugs, and some people do. But ultimately, if you become a slave to it, it’s going to do the opposite of what you think it’s going to do.

HOWARD STERN: You wrote this song?

MADONNA: Yeah.

Like a Virgin and Material Girl

HOWARD STERN: I’m going back to “Like a Virgin.” I’ve heard that you don’t like that song because at some point everyone just knew that song. That became your image. And somebody else had written the song, and then the guys who wrote this song wanted to write another song for you, and you were just so disgusted with that song that you never wrote with them again.

MADONNA: No, that’s not true.

HOWARD STERN: I have it all wrong?

MADONNA: The song that irritated me most about being associated with was “Material Girl.”

LADY INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh.

MADONNA: Not “Like a Virgin.”

HOWARD STERN: Well, “Material Girl,” because everyone misinterpreted it.

MADONNA: Yeah, again, ironic. It was an ironic song. Because I’m certainly not a materialistic person. “Like a Virgin,” to tell you the truth, I like the song “Like a Virgin,” and I love the producing that Nile Rodgers did on it. It was great. But I didn’t like the other songs they wrote for me. It had nothing to do with not liking— listen, if somebody writes you a hit, bow down, bitches.

HOWARD STERN: So after they wrote the hit song for you, you were like, sure, I’ll listen to anything you write.

MADONNA: Yeah, but I didn’t like it.

HOWARD STERN: That was it. It was over.

MADONNA: It’s nothing to do with not liking the image or nothing.

HOWARD STERN: But “Material Girl,” when you say that you didn’t like that song— because I like the song, the misinterpretation.

MADONNA: Yeah, they’re like, “Yo, what’s up, it’s the Material Girl.”

LADY INTERVIEWER: You didn’t want to be that.

MADONNA: No, I’m not. Yeah, yeah.

Money, Philanthropy, and Art

HOWARD STERN: But having a lot of money— Robin and I were trying to figure out how much money you had. We’re up to a billion dollars right now. Okay, no, we’re not up to a billion. How are you not up to a billion?

MADONNA: I’m not because I have a lot of people to take care of.

HOWARD STERN: You have overhead.

MADONNA: I have big overhead, and I share my money with people. I take care of countries. Come on.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah, you do. You’re very generous and philanthropic. Most rich people are not, I’ve discovered.

MADONNA: You can’t hold on to something unless you’re willing to give it away.

HOWARD STERN: But I’ve hit up rich people for charity stuff, and they won’t give a dime.

MADONNA: That’s too bad.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah, they’re very stingy that way.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Well, maybe they’re not giving a dime to you and your charity because that’s not their issue.

MADONNA: Maybe they have other philanthropic interests.

HOWARD STERN: I always think my issues are everyone’s issues.

MADONNA: As you would. What sign are you, by the way?

HOWARD STERN: I’m a Capricorn. Does that mean anything?

MADONNA: It means you’re hardworking.

HOWARD STERN: You believe in this astrology?

MADONNA: I believe it’s a science. I respect it. Yeah. Not the ones you read in the Post, okay, or the Daily News or whatever.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah.

MADONNA: So you’re hardworking. Are you kind of a miser with your money?

HOWARD STERN: I’m like you.

MADONNA: Like you don’t spend it on yourself. You don’t spoil yourself.

HOWARD STERN: I spend it on other people, but not me.

MADONNA: Yes, you don’t think you deserve it.

HOWARD STERN: I’m not comfortable spending money.

MADONNA: Right.

HOWARD STERN: I mean, I bought a painting. That was kind of exciting for me. Yeah, that’s the first time.

MADONNA: Paintings are very big indulgences.

HOWARD STERN: Do you do that? Because you—

MADONNA: Yeah, I collect art.

HOWARD STERN: Who do you like? What artists do you like?

MADONNA: Who do I love, you mean?

HOWARD STERN: Who do you love?

MADONNA: Because if you’re going to pay out the big cash for paintings, you better love it.

HOWARD STERN: What’s the most expensive painting you ever bought?

MADONNA: Francis Bacon.

HOWARD STERN: Francis Bacon?

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: That’s oil?

MADONNA: Yeah.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Right.

MADONNA: And large. Are you a fan of his work?

HOWARD STERN: I don’t know enough about art to be a fan. I just know a bunch of watercolor artists. That’s my thing.

MADONNA: That’s what I like. But you’re a painter, aren’t you?

HOWARD STERN: I paint a little bit. I’m hardly a painter.

MADONNA: Oh, well, you should check out his paintings. He was an Irish painter. He’s dead now, but he’s a fantastic painter.

HOWARD STERN: So is that the best thing about having a lot of money, that you can go out and buy a painting?

Art, Love, and Jean-Michel Basquiat

MADONNA: Well, that was always my goal. I always said, when I was married to Sean, I said, “When I make my first million, I’m going to buy art.” And I’m a big fan of Frida Kahlo. I always was since I was a child. And I bought a self-portrait of hers. And at the time it was rather inexpensive and people didn’t know who she was. Now it’s a gazillion times more expensive. But that was my big thing. I bought a painting.

HOWARD STERN: Well, that’s a guy you dated, the artist Jean-Michel Basquiat. You dated him when you were young.

MADONNA: Yeah, I did.

HOWARD STERN: And you left him because of drugs.

MADONNA: I did. He wouldn’t stop doing heroin.

HOWARD STERN: But you were in love with him.

MADONNA: I was. He was— he was an amazing man and deeply talented. I loved him.

HOWARD STERN: Did you have a ton of his paintings? Do you have a ton of his paintings?

MADONNA: Yeah, but when I broke up with him, he made me give them all back to him.

HOWARD STERN: Oh my God, what a mistake.

MADONNA: And then he painted over them black.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Oh, you’re kidding.

HOWARD STERN: Wow. What would those paintings have been worth?

MADONNA: I don’t know. But anyway, I shouldn’t have given them back to him. I didn’t know. Whatever, doesn’t matter.

HOWARD STERN: Somebody gives you a painting — it’s yours, and you should have said that to him.

MADONNA: I know, but you know how guys give you rings and then you break up with them and they’re like, “I want my ring back,” and you say no? I didn’t say no because he was like, “It’s my art and I want it back,” and I was like, okay.

HOWARD STERN: But why paint black over it to get at you?

MADONNA: Because he was upset that I broke up with him.

HOWARD STERN: Is the worst thing in the world to go out with somebody using drugs? Because you get frustrated. You’re like, can I change you? Aren’t I good enough to make you happy?

MADONNA: It’s difficult to watch people destroy themselves. That’s the worst thing. And we always think — because I’ve also been with alcoholics — that we always think we can fix people and we can’t. They have to do it for themselves.

HOWARD STERN: Right. You always think you can change someone. My psychiatrist told me there’s no way you can change anybody.

MADONNA: Nope. Just change yourself.

Writing “Vogue” and Warren Beatty

HOWARD STERN: Right. So getting back to this new album — when you’re writing an album, like that song you wrote in a couple hours, are the best songs the ones that you write in a couple hours? So when you wrote— I don’t know if you wrote Vogue or somebody did.

MADONNA: Couple hours.

HOWARD STERN: Couple hours. Where are you when you come up with the idea of Vogue? You’re in a club, obviously, right? And you see people voguing.

MADONNA: No, I’d seen people voguing, and then I had to write a song for— and I thought it was a really cool dance, very presentational, and elegant and all about vanity. And then Warren asked me to write a song for Dick Tracy. And then I was thinking about all the movie stars. Because the thing about Warren is that he grew up in that era. He knew— well, he dated all of Hollywood, basically.

HOWARD STERN: Is that freaky, dating a guy who’s basically dated everyone?

MADONNA: I enjoyed it, actually, because I was thinking—

LADY INTERVIEWER: Was he an incredible lover? Because he was supposed to be.

MADONNA: Yes, he was. I’m not going to lie. But I would say things like, “Well, what was it like? What was Julie Christie like? What was Natalie Wood like?”

HOWARD STERN: Really?

MADONNA: They were such amazing women.

HOWARD STERN: You would say that to him? Because I think most women don’t want to know. It just feels kind of weird.

MADONNA: But I looked up to them and admired them.

HOWARD STERN: So he would tell you— when he made love to you—

MADONNA: No, not— who said anything about making love to me?

HOWARD STERN: Because that’s kind of hot.

MADONNA: No, I don’t want to know those things.

HOWARD STERN: But can you imagine? Warren, tell me about—

MADONNA: No, no, this is dinner conversation.

HOWARD STERN: I see. And would he tell you, or was he like, what’s the matter with you?

MADONNA: No, he was very forthcoming.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Wow.

HOWARD STERN: But isn’t that like bragging to your girlfriend about—

MADONNA: No, I asked the question. He didn’t bring it up. I asked him. I wanted him to tell me.

HOWARD STERN: Did you ever say to him directly, “Am I better in bed than Julie Christie?”

MADONNA: No, I didn’t say that.

HOWARD STERN: Right.

MADONNA: I have confidence in my skills.

HOWARD STERN: I’m sure you do.

MADONNA: But I wanted to know what they were like as people, not lovers. They were all very accomplished, talented, remarkable women.

HOWARD STERN: Was Warren your best lover?

MADONNA: Oh gosh.

HOWARD STERN: It sounds like a yes.

MADONNA: I’m not going to answer that question.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Oh, come on.

MADONNA: No, I’m not.

HOWARD STERN: Don’t plead the Fifth in here.

MADONNA: I’m pleading the Fifth. Because who’s the best? I mean, there’s lots of—

HOWARD STERN: Some people are technically good. But if you don’t feel anything good about them—

MADONNA: No, the best—

HOWARD STERN: It can’t be purely sexual.

MADONNA: No, you have to have feelings. Yeah, true.

HOWARD STERN: Right.

MADONNA: Absolutely.

Ghost Town and the New Album

HOWARD STERN: Getting back to the album. Try to get your mind out of the gutter.

MADONNA: You know what I mean?

LADY INTERVIEWER: It’s always sex, sex, sex, sex.

MADONNA: You asked me about Vogue, and then somehow we got into sex. But anyways, so that song actually was a process. It was a little bit of a process thinking about how I’m going to work this into the Dick Tracy thing and the voguing thing. That took me more than a minute, right?

HOWARD STERN: So you have to figure that all out.

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: Is there more satisfaction from a hit song when you write it yourself, or you don’t care where it comes from? If some guy hands you a great song and you do it, there’s certainly more satisfaction if it—

MADONNA: If I manifested it. Yes.

HOWARD STERN: All right, so now get back to the new album. Now, this song is the one I think should be your next single — Ghost Town.

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: Do you agree with me?

MADONNA: I do. It will be.

HOWARD STERN: How about me picking singles?

MADONNA: You were good.

LADY INTERVIEWER: I think you were right.

MADONNA: Well, this song is a post-apocalyptic love song, so it’s like if everything did collapse and there was just one other person left — love would mean everything. That would be all you had.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: And in the end, what if it’s me that’s left and you have to be with me? Wouldn’t you be sickened by that? No, no, you’d be turned on by that.

MADONNA: Well, you’re a Capricorn, that’s a good sign.

HOWARD STERN: Do you think about death a lot?

MADONNA: Not a lot.

HOWARD STERN: You’re not consumed with it?

MADONNA: No.

HOWARD STERN: Do you ever wonder how you’re going to go?

MADONNA: Oh, you’re so morbid.

HOWARD STERN: You don’t think about those things?

MADONNA: No, I’m not going to ever go.

HOWARD STERN: Do you feel that way?

MADONNA: Yes, I’m going to live forever, me and Irene Cara. Well, if we’re artists, we live forever because of what we leave behind.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah, big deal.

MADONNA: You shush, you pessimist.

The Great Love of Her Life

HOWARD STERN: When you’re writing a song like this — it’s saying, I think, you’re talking about the greatest love of your life. If there’s an apocalypse and the only man left— you have not found the great love of your life.

MADONNA: Well, I may have, and maybe I just wasn’t ready to appreciate it. Him.

HOWARD STERN: You think so?

MADONNA: Possibly. Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: Describe the love of your life. Who is it? Who did you mess up with that you should have been with?

MADONNA: No, I’m not going there. We’re not playing that game.

HOWARD STERN: Look at me. Nobody’s listening. Just tell me, who is the great love of your life who you think you were just not mature enough or you didn’t handle the relationship properly?

LADY INTERVIEWER: Or everything the rest of the world wouldn’t let it happen, right?

MADONNA: I can’t say. I can’t.

HOWARD STERN: It wasn’t Sean.

MADONNA: Just shush. Be quiet. Really? Let’s talk about your love life. Haven’t you been married a few times?

HOWARD STERN: No, you’re on the second one. How many times have you been married? You’ve only been married 2 times?

MADONNA: Yeah. Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: But you date more than I do.

MADONNA: Well, that’s what happens when you’re not married.

HOWARD STERN: Right.

LADY INTERVIEWER: But you’ve had some runs — runs of, you know, Madonna was just going through it.

MADONNA: Oh, like going through lots of guys? Yeah. I did — in my 30s, yeah, I dated a lot. And then when I got pregnant and I had my first child, then I decided it was time to chill. Take a chill pill. And then I was thinking about who I’m going to bring around my children.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Right.

MADONNA: So you can’t go on dating runs.

HOWARD STERN: Not as much fun, is it? That’s the way it is.

MADONNA: Well, you have to be a bit more discerning, discriminating, about who you—

Truth or Dare and the Start of Reality Television

HOWARD STERN: I’m thinking about it now. In Truth or Dare, you said that Sean Penn was the love of your life.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I thought I remembered that.

HOWARD STERN: Now that I’m thinking about it.

MADONNA: I did say that.

HOWARD STERN: You did. You want to retract that?

MADONNA: You’re not going to get the answer you want from me right now.

HOWARD STERN: I’m just quoting Truth or Dare. I’m quoting you.

MADONNA: I’m pleading the Fifth. I know, but I made that movie several years ago.

HOWARD STERN: Don’t you think Truth or Dare was the start of reality television?

MADONNA: It absolutely was.

HOWARD STERN: I feel that was a huge innovation on your part.

MADONNA: And I got so much flack for it.

HOWARD STERN: And look what’s happening now. Everyone is doing it.

MADONNA: But I think I did mine good.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Definitely.

HOWARD STERN: It was really good. It wasn’t embarrassing, right?

MADONNA: Well, I think the stuff that we showed was entertaining.

Evita and Antonio Banderas

HOWARD STERN: It was, you know, the other movie that I think you got crap for was Evita. I don’t know. I don’t feel people appreciated that performance.

MADONNA: I don’t think they gave me crap for it. They just—

HOWARD STERN: No, they weren’t used to seeing you in that light. But don’t you think that was one of the—

MADONNA: As the wife of a dictator.

HOWARD STERN: Don’t you think that was one of your best performances?

MADONNA: I do.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Definitely.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah.

LADY INTERVIEWER: By the way, Antonio Banderas.

MADONNA: Yeah, he’s hot.

HOWARD STERN: Was he?

LADY INTERVIEWER: You made that pretty clear that you thought he was very hot.

MADONNA: I had a big crush on him when I was a kid.

HOWARD STERN: Don’t tell me he was on the list.

MADONNA: No, not at all. He was with Melanie Griffith.

HOWARD STERN: Excellent.

MADONNA: I wished.

HOWARD STERN: I think those two would have been up for the party.

MADONNA: She never left his side.

LADY INTERVIEWER: While you were around?

Dating and Normal Life

HOWARD STERN: Have you ever been on a normal date? Does a guy, like a normal— when I say normal, a regular guy, does he ever come up to you and just ask you out and say, “Hey Madonna, I love you, I think you’re great, I’d love to go out with you and get to know you better.” Does anyone do that with you?

MADONNA: Yes, they do.

HOWARD STERN: Would you accept something like that?

MADONNA: Yeah, it depends on who they are and how they do it, right? Of course.

HOWARD STERN: You’re not on any dating websites where we can contact you?

MADONNA: No, I’m not on Tinder, right?

Paving the Way for Other Artists

HOWARD STERN: What do you think about all of the girls coming up? They really are following in your footsteps. And it’s weird to me when you get attacked or people go, “Hey, you know, Madonna, you know, f* her,” blah, blah, blah. Because really you did pave the way for them, right?

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: In terms of the outrageous videos, in terms of knowing how to use that medium.

MADONNA: I think so, yeah.

HOWARD STERN: Even in sort of how you conducted your business. Like, there were things in business that you did when you were with— I forget the record company you started. It’s Maverick.

MADONNA: Maverick, yeah.

Signing Alanis Morissette

HOWARD STERN: You signed Alanis Morissette. How did you find her? Did someone bring her to you, or did you just find her?

MADONNA: Oh, Guy Oseary found her, my manager.

HOWARD STERN: Right. When you find someone like that, a unique talent, and you’re able to sort of put them on your record company, that’s a big deal.

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: I mean, she really—

MADONNA: Do you remember her coming into the office and sitting on a couch and singing, playing guitar and singing a song for us, which was basically Jagged Little Pill, right?

HOWARD STERN: And you heard it and you said, sign her.

MADONNA: Yeah, she’s amazing talent.

HOWARD STERN: And when you put that out, I was very proud. I don’t think you got a lot of credit for that, right?

MADONNA: Nope.

HOWARD STERN: Does that matter to you to get some sort of credit?

MADONNA: It doesn’t now, but at the time, the list is so long. It’s a long list.

Preparing for the Interview

HOWARD STERN: When I was preparing for this interview, I got to tell you, I was exhausted. I was exhausted reading your list of stuff that you’ve done. It’s almost too mind-boggling. Do you like being interviewed?

MADONNA: If the person that’s interviewing me is witty and wise.

HOWARD STERN: Uh-oh. Well, I hope I’m doing that.

LADY INTERVIEWER: We’re in trouble.

HOWARD STERN: I don’t know if I’m in big trouble. I’ve never been accused of being wise. All right, let’s talk about another song, Joan of Arc, a highly personal song.

LADY INTERVIEWER: All right.

HOWARD STERN: Now, this is you being Joan of Arc?

Joan of Arc

MADONNA: This is me wishing I could be as impenetrable as I perceive Joan of Arc to be. Like, she was tortured. She led France to victory. They defeated the English, as you know. And she should have been praised for what she did. And instead, people thought, “Wait, how could a girl accomplish such a thing? She must be a witch. She must be worshipping Satan or whatever.” And she dresses like a dude. So there’s something wrong with her. So we’re going to get her to admit that she’s evil and that she did a bad thing, and/or we’re going to tell her we’re going to burn her at the stake.

And she said, “No, I will not. I will not, no matter what you say. Even if you kill me, I’m not going to back down, and I’m going to stick to what I believe in, and I don’t care what you do to me, and I don’t care what you say about me.” And I wish that I could be that person.

HOWARD STERN: So let me get this straight. Do you identify with Joan of Arc? That’s what you’re saying. In a sense, you’re like Joan of Arc. You have—

MADONNA: I would never take that kind of credit because I think probably what she did was pretty superhuman and remarkable.

HOWARD STERN: But you relate to her?

MADONNA: Yes.

HOWARD STERN: Because you did something superhuman and remarkable with your life. You know, you came from Michigan and you became Madonna, the superstar, and you sold 300 million records and you changed the world.

MADONNA: Yes.

LADY INTERVIEWER: But could she withstand being burned at the stake?

MADONNA: No, I don’t want to get burned.

HOWARD STERN: You don’t want to get burned?

MADONNA: I’m not willing to die for— no. No. So I’m saying I wish I could be that strong.

HOWARD STERN: But in a sense, you never buckled to controversy. There have been people who told you to back off, not do what you’re doing, stop being naked in a book, stop going—

MADONNA: They didn’t threaten to kill me, though.

HOWARD STERN: No. Okay. But I’m saying, this is why it’s personal to you.

MADONNA: Yeah.

Writing Songs and Keeping a Journal

HOWARD STERN: When you wrote this song, do you write the lyrics first?

MADONNA: Kind of both at the same time.

HOWARD STERN: You keep a journal? Like, do you write—

MADONNA: I do. I do keep a journal. Sometimes I draw ideas from that journal.

HOWARD STERN: I would love to read your journals. Can I come over to your apartment and just read what’s on your mind?

MADONNA: Oh, my goodness.

HOWARD STERN: What do you think? Can you open up to me a little bit? Are you going to be sure?

MADONNA: You could definitely come into my house and read my journal.

HOWARD STERN: Thank you.

MADONNA: Yes, I’d rather do that than tell you who my best lover was on— I’m sure I’ll find him on the radio.

HOWARD STERN: But here’s the thing with the journal. Do you leave it laying around where anyone could read it, or is it so secretive and dark that you can’t allow it?

MADONNA: Dark? What’s the word dark?

HOWARD STERN: Can you write your darkest thoughts in that journal?

MADONNA: Sure.

HOWARD STERN: And you do that?

MADONNA: Yes.

HOWARD STERN: And can the kids go somewhere in the house and just pick it up and start reading it?

MADONNA: They could, but they won’t.

HOWARD STERN: How would you ever believe that? If my father or mother had a journal— had a journal, you’d be reading it. Well, first of all, it’s the way I could find out about them.

MADONNA: Well, I put it in a drawer underneath some other books.

HOWARD STERN: I see. And you think they don’t know where that is?

MADONNA: I don’t really think they’re looking at my journal. I don’t think they care about my deeper thoughts.

HOWARD STERN: So you wrote the lyrics to this?

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: And then you’re thinking, “Hey, I could put this to a song,” and you come up sort of with a musical thing?

MADONNA: Well, no, this song I wrote in a room with Toby Gad and Mozella, and we were talking about— I’ve always been a big fan of Joan of Arc, and she was a symbolic person in my life. I have female heroes or muses, so to speak, and she’s one of them. Like Frida Kahlo. Women who I perceive went through a lot, persecuted, and triumphed in spite of it. So I just was throwing out names and things, ideas of what I wanted to write about.

The Creative Process of Songwriting

HOWARD STERN: If I write a song with you, am I able to say, “Hey Madonna, that’s not good what you’re thinking right now, and I need to shut that down and let’s go somewhere else with this?”

MADONNA: Absolutely.

HOWARD STERN: Really? And you’re not going to fire me and throw me out of the room?

MADONNA: No, that’s what songwriting is all about. It’s not like we shoot each other down. Like, it’s like you say a phrase or word, and then you— first of all, if you start working with people, you have to get to know them and break the ice because it’s a very intimate thing to do.

HOWARD STERN: Can you fall in love easily when you’re writing songs with somebody?

MADONNA: Oh my God, yes. Especially if they’re good-looking.

HOWARD STERN: It’s incredibly erotic, right?

MADONNA: To create with somebody is a great aphrodisiac.

LADY INTERVIEWER: I know you wrote with Lenny Kravitz.

MADONNA: Yeah.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Did you fall in love?

HOWARD STERN: I’d go to bed with him.

MADONNA: I fell in lust.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah. Did you two hook up?

MADONNA: I mean, did you two make love? I could see that. I could see beautiful children.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Well, they didn’t go that far.

MADONNA: He has a beautiful daughter.

HOWARD STERN: He does. He does.

MADONNA: Yeah. He doesn’t need my help.

HOWARD STERN: When you write with a guy like that, though, it is— it’s very exciting. And I would think being married to you, and then you go into the studio with Lenny Kravitz, I would be incredibly, insanely jealous. I would be jealous.

MADONNA: I wasn’t married at the time.

HOWARD STERN: Are you a jealous person?

MADONNA: I can be, yeah.

HOWARD STERN: Like when you were married to a guy, Richie, and he goes off and directs a film and there’s a beautiful— you know, directors fall in love with their— Yeah. Would you say, “I don’t want you—”

MADONNA: I would feel insecure sometimes. Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: How would you control that? How would you control that jealousy?

MADONNA: Just shut up and deal with it.

HOWARD STERN: You could do that? You didn’t let it out?

MADONNA: Sometimes I did. Yeah. I think I maybe threw a tantrum, but just because it was a late-night dinner meeting with the actress, I was like— you know, one of those scenarios.

HOWARD STERN: Right, right. Oh, I would not want that. Ever.

MADONNA: Yeah, but you have to get over it.

HOWARD STERN: I’m insecure.

MADONNA: Who isn’t insecure?

HOWARD STERN: But I’m really insecure. I look like me.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Yeah, but she married a director. I mean, he’s going to have to do these things, right?

MADONNA: Well, and he has to accept it with me.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Right.

MADONNA: So it goes both ways.

HOWARD STERN: That’s true. That’s true. So, I was thinking about you, and—

MADONNA: And here’s the thing.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah.

MADONNA: If they’re going to do it, they’re going to do it anyway. They’re going to do it.

HOWARD STERN: But you don’t want to be in the way.

MADONNA: They’re going to leave you. They’re going to leave you. If they can be taken, let them go.

Nerves and the Super Bowl Performance

HOWARD STERN: Do you still get nervous in certain situations when you’ve got to perform? Are you calm enough at this point where it’s just you’re totally in the zone?

MADONNA: If someone I really admire is in the audience, then I would get nervous, a little bit nervous.

HOWARD STERN: When you did something like the Super Bowl?

MADONNA: Oh my God, I was so nervous.

HOWARD STERN: You were nervous even though you’re Madonna and you’ve—

MADONNA: You wish you didn’t. Yeah, but that’s because it’s live TV and it was so complicated to put that show together. You have 8 minutes to build the stage in the middle of the stadium during halftime, right? And the NFL hires locals to do that, okay? So you have locals building your stage, all right? So you’re like— and you have a lot of crazy things happening. You say it’s like, oh my God, what if they don’t put it together right? What if it starts to break down? What if the things don’t work?

LADY INTERVIEWER: Out of your hands.

MADONNA: Everything’s so out of control.

HOWARD STERN: Elements out of control.

MADONNA: So out of control. But, live TV is crazy anyways. Doing things on TV, whatever happens happens. You got to roll with it.

HOWARD STERN: So would you be nervous doing Saturday Night Live because it’s live and you can’t control the performance in terms of if it goes out on the air and things screw up?

MADONNA: Yeah, but I have done Saturday Night Live. But the thing is, at least Saturday Night Live is like there’s a joke element to it. It’s funny. But when you’re doing Super Bowl, it’s serious. The whole world is watching, and you better not mess up. That’s all there is to it. And there’s a lot of crazy live elements. You don’t get a lot of rehearsal time. 8 minutes to put the stage up, and then you have 12. I got 12 minutes and 47 seconds. They gave me 47 seconds extra to do my fabulous—

HOWARD STERN: Great.

MADONNA: Yeah, to put on the greatest show on earth.

HOWARD STERN: And you know after that performance the world is going to evaluate you, right?

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: And even after all your accomplishments, you sit there and you go, holy sh. Yeah, they’re criticizing.

LADY INTERVIEWER: They’re still giving me report cards.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah, I still get a report card.

MADONNA: I was honestly only concerned with my performance and if everything that I set out to do I did, and I did it well. And I was so relieved when it was over with that I went to my locker room, laid down on the floor and cried just because I got through it and I knew that everything went off without a hitch.

Life in England and Stage Nightmares

HOWARD STERN: Did you miss living in America when you moved to England? Or was it kind of fun to get the hell out of the country?

MADONNA: It was fun to live somewhere else. Yeah, it was fun. It was fun. But I also came back to New York all the time.

HOWARD STERN: Is your worst nightmare— do you ever wake up in the middle of the night and go, oh sh, like I had a nightmare where I’m on stage and everything went wrong?

MADONNA: It just happened and it wasn’t a nightmare.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah, by the way, that was not funny.

MADONNA: No.

HOWARD STERN: You were going up onstage at these British awards, whatever those are.

MADONNA: The Brits, yeah.

HOWARD STERN: Right.

The Cape Incident at the Brit Awards

MADONNA: I rehearse everything to death, okay? Right. So I never do anything live that I haven’t rehearsed. But I broke that rule that one time, and I’ve learned my lesson, and I will never do it again.

So what happened is I had a long, long, long, long, beautiful satin cape made for me by Armani. And I was walking down this long runway to the stage. We did it at the O2 Centre in London. And I entered in the middle of the room and in the middle of the audience, and I had to walk up these steps. And then once I walked up the steps, the cape was placed on me at the bottom of the stairs. And then I walked up the stairs, and I had 2 Japanese girls who were part of my dance ensemble carrying my cape, holding the train of my cape, right? And I had a hood over so I could barely see. And we rehearsed this 1,000 times, okay?

And how the cape is secured, I had magnets going all the way up. And Armani—

HOWARD STERN: Those were magnets?

MADONNA: They were magnets, but the top wasn’t a magnet because the magnet at the top kept coming undone because the cape was so heavy. It kept opening, and I wanted to be obscured. So I said, okay, well, let’s tie it with a tiny silk string. And I tied it in a bow. And we rehearsed it 20,000 times. Okay? Walk down the thing. They’re way behind me. Aya and Bambi were way behind me. And they’re— I crawl up the steps. At a certain cue, I take off my hood. I sing the first 4 lines of the verse. And at a certain cue, I pull the string. The bow comes undone. And they are trained to yank as hard as they can, pull the cape.

Okay, well, I pulled the string that time, and it didn’t come undone. It turned into a knot. And here’s why. Because the director of the show at the last minute, or the stage manager, whatever, said, “You can’t walk out in the middle of all these people.” I said, “Well, what am I supposed to do? I can’t walk so far with a cape covering me.” They’re like, “You’re going to have to do it.” So my stylist, she’s like, “Well, now I’m worried that the cape’s not going to stay on your neck. So let’s tie it extra tight.” Oh, God. Okay.

So we gave it a little yank so it wouldn’t come undone because I had so much further to go. And so when I got to that moment and I pulled, it was very surreal because the girls were so far away from me. And they are trained on the beat, remove that cape on this word, at this measure. Pull that cape. I let my arm go out. I pulled that string. I thought it was going to come undone.

HOWARD STERN: It was knotted.

LADY INTERVIEWER: And they’re yanking for all—

MADONNA: And they’re yanking. And I was like—

HOWARD STERN: Did you hit your head on the floor?

MADONNA: I did, because again, the Minotaurs, the men in the bullhorns—

HOWARD STERN: By the way, one of those guys is me, actually.

MADONNA: We are in very good shape.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah.

MADONNA: They were standing with their heads faced away from me, so no one saw me fall. So they weren’t even catching me. It was— I was like, “Hey, thanks guys.”

HOWARD STERN: You were a trooper. You got right up. Were you worried about a head injury?

MADONNA: Honestly, I was in shock. I had so much adrenaline pumping through my body. I was so happy to get that thing off my neck because they almost choked me to death. And I was like, the first thing that flashed through my mind was, I got to start this all over again. And then I realized I can’t. It’s live TV.

HOWARD STERN: It’s going.

MADONNA: It’s going. I’m going. All right, I’m out of here. So like where I’m in the song, get back on the stage. And of course lyrically, I was like, “I picked myself up.” Love’s going to lift me up. It was so weird, and I was saying what I had to do, right?

LADY INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

MADONNA: So then I just danced like an angry matador for the next 30 seconds, and then I finally relaxed into it. I was like, okay, just go with it. Recover, recover, go on, and that’s it.

HOWARD STERN: And that’s years of experience. That’s going back, all those years when you were just dancing, and that’s dealing with a lot of live situations. That’s the one thing that you learn.

MADONNA: And the one thing my dance teacher always told me, that when you make a mistake, you can never telegraph that to the audience.

HOWARD STERN: Like, because you didn’t. You got up.

MADONNA: No, you can’t, because they’re going to believe what you tell them to believe.

HOWARD STERN: Do they rush you to the hospital after that to check it, to x-ray your head or something?

MADONNA: I went home and a doctor came to see me, and they made me stay up all night because I hit the back of my head.

HOWARD STERN: Because they’re worried that something can happen where you could— yeah, you could—

MADONNA: God forbid.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah, so not the way you want to go out.

MADONNA: Well, she’s not thinking about that.

HOWARD STERN: That’s all I think about. I just don’t want to go out in an embarrassing way. I mean, I know it’s going to happen, but I just want to go out with some dignity. So when you hit your head and this whole thing goes wrong, will you live it afterwards? Do you start yelling at people afterwards and say, “What the f*?”

MADONNA: No, I was only angry with myself because I made a mistake. No one beats up on me more than me, and I was really embarrassed that I— I have a lot of pride in doing shows well and not messing up, and I did, and I was beating up on myself.

HOWARD STERN: Oh, that’s the worst.

MADONNA: That was really what I did, beat up on myself like sh.

HOWARD STERN: What is that? How long does that go on for, for a full day or two?

MADONNA: No, that lasted pretty much the week, and then of course I had to do press and performances. And I was like, okay, here come the cape jokes.

HOWARD STERN: No, there was nothing funny about that. No, I watched it and I can laugh at something like a trip on a stage or something like that, but that sh just freaked me out.

MADONNA: Yeah, it freaked me out too.

HOWARD STERN: Yeah, that’s real.

MADONNA: And the angels really protected me because I fell downstairs and I could have hurt so many things and I didn’t. I didn’t have a bruise, I didn’t have a scratch, nothing. I just hit the back of my head. My neck bothered me, so it was kind of a whiplash kind of thing happening. But I just had to work the next day.

Spirituality and Belief in Angels

LADY INTERVIEWER: So you believe in angels?

MADONNA: Of course I do. Okay.

HOWARD STERN: Are you religious? I mean, are you religious to the point that you think we’re going somewhere when we die? When our energy leaves this planet?

MADONNA: That’s better.

HOWARD STERN: Are we going somewhere? Or, Madonna, you would know better than anyone. She believes in angels, Howard.

LADY INTERVIEWER: She believes this.

HOWARD STERN: I don’t know. I want to find out.

MADONNA: I’m a deeply spiritual person.

HOWARD STERN: You believe—

MADONNA: I believe in reincarnation.

HOWARD STERN: You do?

MADONNA: Yeah. And I believe that our souls are energy, that they’re eternal, our physical body is not, and that we are in a constant state of evolution.

Rebel Heart

HOWARD STERN: I’m coming back if you want. That’s the problem. The new album is called Rebel Heart. It’s available now. Available now, which is such a weird thing anyway. Available now is so different from—

LADY INTERVIEWER: There are no record stores.

HOWARD STERN: No record stores.

MADONNA: It’s sad.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

Wrapping Up

HOWARD STERN: Do you miss that? It’s weird doing business in this environment, isn’t it?

MADONNA: It is.

HOWARD STERN: It is indeed. Also, I have to tell you, I think the album is phenomenal. I’m not blowing smoke up your ass. If I didn’t think it was great, I’d just say, hey, I didn’t get to hear it yet. I painted to it all morning.

MADONNA: Did you?

HOWARD STERN: Painted a beautiful seascape. Oh, lovely. And thank you.

LADY INTERVIEWER: You painted this morning?

HOWARD STERN: I did paint this morning, preparing for the Madonna interview. And you still friends with Rosie?

MADONNA: I am, yeah. Yeah, I adore her.

HOWARD STERN: You guys have a lot in common.

MADONNA: We do.

HOWARD STERN: Is it the fact that you both lost your mothers at a young age?

MADONNA: That was our bonding. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. But we have other things in common.

HOWARD STERN: You do?

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: I wonder what.

MADONNA: Well, she has adopted children, so do I. And she’s funny, and so am I. And I don’t know, we just have a lot of the same likes and dislikes.

HOWARD STERN: Do you guys hang? I mean, like, does she come over to your house? I don’t know how to do that. I mean, she actually came to my house and hung out — she spends the night.

MADONNA: Doesn’t she make you laugh?

HOWARD STERN: Yeah, she’s easy. But when you have these celebrities come to your house, are you comfortable with that?

MADONNA: Well, not everybody’s as funny as she is.

HOWARD STERN: Right. But when people — when you have a celebrity friend and you’re sitting there, it’s like the two of you should be talking because you’re celebrities, but you’re not.

MADONNA: Not really — just being a celebrity doesn’t mean you should talk. You have to have things in common.

HOWARD STERN: I see.

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: All right, well, we’re going to have to talk more. You have to come back sometime.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Yeah, we’re so happy you came in.

MADONNA: Now that we’re friends.

HOWARD STERN: Now we’re friends. Now that I —

MADONNA: And you have a trainer that used to train me.

HOWARD STERN: I do, Pat Minocchia.

MADONNA: Well, would you give him a hug and a kiss for me?

HOWARD STERN: I do that often. I’m going to do more than that.

LADY INTERVIEWER: Why did it take you so long to come here?

HOWARD STERN: She missed —

MADONNA: You missed out on all the fun. I think you guys liked me.

HOWARD STERN: I do like you.

MADONNA: No, you didn’t. You used to say bad things about me.

HOWARD STERN: Can I tell you something? I used to say bad things about everyone. I’ll tell you why. I’m tremendously insecure, and I thought that that’s what my knee-jerk reaction to be to everything. I was angry. I was, quite frankly, I was an angry young man.

MADONNA: I didn’t want to go into the lion’s den and get my head bit off.

HOWARD STERN: I understand.

MADONNA: You understand.

HOWARD STERN: But by the way, that’s my way of flirting.

MADONNA: Got you. So kind of like me and David Letterman, right?

HOWARD STERN: Like, I just, like the guy who pulls the ponytail or something like that.

MADONNA: Yes, baby.

HOWARD STERN: Call me baby again.

MADONNA: Yes, baby.

HOWARD STERN: All right. Okay, I like that. What are you wearing, a grill?

MADONNA: Yeah.

HOWARD STERN: No kidding?

LADY INTERVIEWER: Yeah, for a minute I thought, oh, she’s wearing braces. Then I said, no, it’s a grill.

HOWARD STERN: I just noticed you had a grill on.

MADONNA: Yes, baby.

HOWARD STERN: It’s kind of hot.

MADONNA: Thank you.

HOWARD STERN: You look good.

MADONNA: Mouth jewelry.

HOWARD STERN: I gotta tell you, you look good.

MADONNA: Thank you, baby.

HOWARD STERN: That’s a compliment. But Madonna, thank you for coming in. I appreciate it very much. Certainly you have a million places to be, and I appreciate you, and thank you for the great career, and thank you for the great album. Enjoy it and love it.

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