Here is the full transcript of Judging Freedom’s Judge Napolitano in conversation with economist and public policy analyst Prof. Jeffrey Sachs on “Will Trump Dump Netanyahu?”, premiered May 12, 2025.
Listen to the audio version here:
Introduction
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Hi everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Monday, May 12, 2025. Professor Jeffrey Sachs is here. Here’s the topic. Will Donald Trump dump Benjamin Netanyahu?
Professor Sachs, welcome here. Thank you for accommodating my schedule. Is there reason in your understanding to believe Western press reports that President Trump is getting sick and tired of Prime Minister Netanyahu?
Trump’s Potential Middle East Strategy
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: Well, let’s just say there’s good reason for him to be getting sick of Prime Minister Netanyahu, whether he actually is or not, I can’t vouch for it. But there is very good reason for the President of the United States to say to the Arab counterparts that he’ll be meeting with that the United States is going to pursue a foreign policy of U.S. interests in the Middle East, not of an extremist Israeli government’s delusional approach and that would lead actually to peace.
If President Trump says this, we haven’t had a president pursue American interests in the Middle East for a very long time. Biden simply did what Netanyahu said. It got America into a deeper and deeper mess. President Trump has the opportunity to extricate the United States from the profound mess that Netanyahu has caused. And that mess specifically is wars all over the Middle East. President Trump likes peace. He likes business, he likes development. And all of that is possible.
If President Trump says, I’m not following the madness of Israel’s extremism, I’m going to pursue a normal approach. That means recognizing the State of Palestine alongside the State of Israel. It means agreeing with the Arab Peace Initiative of the last 23 years that there can be normalcy, there can be peace, there can be normal relations between the Arab world and Israel. But Israel can’t have it all. It can’t just keep expanding into other people’s territories. It has to live within its borders, and then it can live peacefully and normally with the rest of the Middle East, including the Palestinians, including Saudi Arabia, including the Gulf region, including Egypt. But it has to stop expanding. It has to live within its legal borders.
Recent Developments in US-Israel Relations
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: In the past three weeks, the following has happened. Mike Waltz was fired, and the White House leaked that he was fired because he was secretly negotiating, planning, plotting, conniving. I’m using some of their words, and I’m paraphrasing. With Prime Minister Netanyahu, the US negotiated directly with Hamas, bypassing the Israelis, and that resulted in the release of a joint US Israeli citizen, IDF soldier. Today, the US provided humanitarian assistance to Gaza or announced that it will. And the American ambassador to the US, an arch Zionist, said, we don’t need Israel’s permission. The US stopped the killing in Yemen. The US sent its B52 bombers home to San Diego. All this without notice to Netanyahu.
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: This is all extremely promising. I would add one more huge item, and that is President Trump’s very smart approach to ending the war in Ukraine as well, over the objections of the neocons in Washington and the traditional hardliners and those who would be saying, you’ve got to back Netanyahu. No matter what President Trump has demonstrated, he wants peace. He wants the wars to end.
When it came to the case of Ukraine, he heard accurately, for the war to end, NATO expansion needs to be stopped. He said that to the Russian side. Now, there’s going to be negotiations between Russia and Ukraine later this week that President Trump may actually attend if the news reports are accurate.
In the case of the Middle East, if the President hears and understands very clearly, there cannot be peace, there cannot be normalization between Saudi Arabia or the other Gulf countries and Israel, except if there is a state of Palestine on the 4th of June, 1967, borders, that is the internationally legal borders, then if he hears that and responds accurately to it. Then all of the items that you mentioned of showing the independence, putting American strategic interests above what he’s hearing from Netanyahu would come to fruition.
The president could actually bring peace to the Middle East for the first time really in a century, by the way. He can do that. If he says, yes, I see the reality. There must be a state of Palestine alongside the state of Israel on the internationally recognized borders. The United States will lift the veto that Biden used in the U.N. Security Council to block Palestine’s membership in the U.N. The U.S. will accept Palestine as a U.N. member state. All U.N. member states come in on condition that they are peace seeking states that Palestine would enter as the 194th UN member state. This could be done within days. Basically, President Trump could say this during this trip. We would see history being made. If he follows Netanyahu line, it’s not going to happen.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Well, Jeff, I hope he listens to you. Here’s what he said just a few minutes ago in the White House teasing the reporters that were there.
VIDEO CLIP BEGINS:
DONALD TRUMP: I think you may have a good result out of the Thursday meeting in Turkey between Russia and Ukraine. And I believe the two leaders were going to be there. I was thinking about flying over. I don’t know where I’m going to be on Thursday. I’ve got so many meetings. But I was thinking about actually flying over there. There’s a possibility of it, I guess, if I think things can happen.
VIDEO CLIP ENDS:
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: You know, he’s just the type to do something radical like that.
Now, this was just released a few minutes ago, Professor Sachs, from a closed session of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee. You’re probably familiar with their committee structure. Prime Minister Netanyahu quote, this is stated in Hebrew, but we used AI to translate it. “I think we will need to wean ourselves off American military aid,” close quote. If he said that, what does that tell you? Professor Sachs?
Netanyahu’s Surprising Statement
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: Well, that would indicate that he recognizes that the US is going to pursue a different foreign policy, not to support his wars. This would be wonderful news. It might suggest that he has the advance notice that President Trump is going to call for a state of Palestine as a UN Member state. That’s the breakthrough that we need. Above all, if it happens and if this quote suggests that, of course we’re reading a lot into it. But if it suggests that, that is phenomenal news.
It’s interesting. By the way, we should understand how many foreign policy initiatives President Trump is engaged in just this moment that look positive right now. And this is astounding. First is Ukraine. I think he is maneuvering to get that war ended and he’s doing it very successfully with the US China today, the agreement to roll back the tariffs that went to the stratosphere a few weeks ago. This is very good news with the president intervening in the India, Pakistan battle of the last few days to bring together a ceasefire with the president overriding Waltz, apparently, and certainly Netanyahu to say, no, we’re not going to have wars with Iran.
All of these are peace seeking initiatives. It’s amazing. And if it’s true, President Trump will make history. It’s very close. He needs to understand and really needs to see that if he says two state solution, no nonsense, this is the real thing, all his other goals will be achievable. And that is a remarkable, remarkable fact.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: But think of the ramifications of this quote, assuming that Netanyahu said it. “I think we will need to wean ourselves off American military aid.” Where are they going to go? The US gave them?
Israel’s Limited Options
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: I’ll tell you where they would have to go. They would have to go to normalcy, to diplomacy, to peace. There is no military alternative for them other than the U.S. and if President Trump finally stops the U.S. backing of these military adventures, they have no other place to go. What they will have to do is wean themselves off of a 30 year addiction to war. Have to go to real diplomacy, real diplomacy with the Arab neighbors, real diplomacy with Palestine.
But most importantly, and I think this is the key point, President Trump can bring about peace by recognizing the state of Palestine. Because that will bring the entire Arab world, which has repeatedly said that’s the precondition for normalcy. It will bring the 57 countries of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation all to say, yes, this is what we have been saying for decades. This is finally coming to reality.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Collapse of the Netanyahu government, most likely.
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: But you know, in this world, it’s so important to understand, the world cannot be organized for the survival of a particular incumbent, especially one that has made egregious errors. If you want to be very charitable about it, or egregious crimes. If you want to take a different approach, the world cannot be organized for the sake of a few individuals. It can’t be organized for the sake of Netanyahu. It can’t be organized for the sake of Zelensky.
Yes, it should be organized for the sake of the Ukrainian people, for the sake of the people of Israel, for the sake of the people of Palestine, but not for a particular government. And if the government is extreme, if the government is pursuing an agenda of war, when war absolutely makes no sense for their population, nor for the United States, the US role is to say we pursue peace. The politics is a different business, not the US business that will be determined by the people of Ukraine or by the people of Israel, but it is business of the United States to pursue the U.S. interest. And the U.S. interest in Ukraine is peace, and the U.S. interest in the Middle East is peace. And that is within reach of the US itself.
Trump’s Advisors and Influences
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: So let me sober up this conversation a little bit. Yes, Trump is surrounded by strong neocons. Trump is also surrounded by neocon skeptics. When I say surrounded by, I’m talking about his national security people. From Hegseth to Rubio to Sebastian Gorka to Tulsi Gabbard, to a person, they are arch Zionists. Who’s he getting advice from?
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: We have seen this play out in Ukraine as well. And I’ve seen, you know, by knowing the day to day events, there were lots of people that were telling President Trump, no, no, you can’t push. You have to side with the Europeans, you have to side with Ukrainians. But President Trump said, no, it’s in the interest of the Ukrainians, the real interest of the Ukrainians, it’s in the real interest of Russia and it’s especially in the real interest of the United States to have peace.
And so he heard a lot of neocon rants. In fact, there were lot of landmines around, if I could put it that way, to get to even this stage where both sides have said there will be negotiations in Istanbul this week. And now President Trump is saying, yeah, I’ll be there as well if this happens. And everything’s fragile because there are a lot of wreckers, a lot of people who don’t want negotiation, a lot of people who want wars to continue. But if it happens, it is because President Trump persevered in this over the neocon objections.
When it comes to Israel, this is absolutely deeply entrained in the US Government and has been for decades. Follow whatever the Israeli government says, but it has led us into countless wars. It’s leading to an expansion of war in the Middle East. And what I hope President Trump will hear in the next three days, and what I expect them to hear is from the Arab side: We cannot go on like this any longer. It’s holding back our entire region. It’s frustrating economic development. It’s killing a lot of innocent people. But the effects all over our region are devastating. We need peace, and peace is available. It’s within reach, Mr. President. Do the right thing, and we get peace.
So I’m hoping that this will be the key, that the ones that he will be listening to are the counterparts that he will be meeting in Qatar, in the Emirates, in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, because if they convey a clear, unambiguous message, President Trump will hear.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: That he’s meeting with Jelani, of all people, an Al Qaeda terrorist and murderer, who his own State Department put a $10 million bounty on his head. And he mentioned in the White House today he’s thinking of listening. Lifting all sanctions on Syria. Why didn’t they just lift the sanctions on Syria when Assad was there and save all this death and destruction? Jeff, are you still with us?
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: Yes.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Were you able to hear what I said about Jelani? So, I don’t know.
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: I’m sorry. We had a brief flicker of the Internet, but I’m back. So if you can hear me.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: So Trump is meeting with Jelani, the terrorist who’s now the head, the nominal head of the Syrian government. He has also intimated today in the White House he might lift all sanctions. Oh, it looks like we’ve lost him, Chris. All right, we’ll wait for Professor Sachs to come back with us.
What I was presenting to him was the argument made earlier on this show by Scott Ritter that President Trump meeting with Jelani and offering to lift the sanctions on Syria? Is the President of the United States meeting with a person with a $10 million bounty on his head, a wanted terrorist known for killing Americans and heading an organization that has been characterized as a terrorist group? Okay. Professor Sachs is with us.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Oh, it’s not your fault. I won’t say where you are, but you’re a long distance from here. President Trump is planning to meet with Al Jalani, the nominal head of the Syrian government, an Al Qaeda terrorist who’s killed Americans with his bare hands, and on whose head Trump’s own State Department had and then removed a $10 million bounty. Trump himself intimated that earlier today in the White House he might lift the sanctions on Syria. Why didn’t they just lift the sanctions when Assad was there instead of going through all this killing?
The Origins of the Syrian Crisis
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: Well, this is a key point that takes us back to 2011, when President Obama very mistakenly and egregiously launched a regime change operation against Syria. He ordered the CIA, in an operation called Operation Timber Sycamore, to engage with others in the region to overthrow the Syrian government. This led to 14 years of mass bloodshed, destruction, hundreds of thousands of deaths for absolutely no reason. This is typical neocon policy. And again, Israel has been a main proponent of these kinds of wars in the Middle East. They have been disastrous for the United States.
When it comes to the situation today, we made this situation, we made this mess. Now it’s time to solve this crisis. And again, I’m not inside any of the discussions when it comes to Syria right now, but the reason we got to this stage was the US itself blundering along on the neocon pattern, following the lead of Netanyahu and others across the Middle East, making war, not peace. So I hope that President Trump has a peace strategy together with other regional powers, with Turkey, with Egypt, with Saudi Arabia. That’s absolutely essential.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Well, the next few days will be very key to see how this develops. I mean, you and I both know his personality. He likes to tease what’s on his mind, teasing that he might go to Turkey, maybe he’ll go to Tehran and meet with Putin and the head of the Iranian government.
A Pivotal Moment for Global Peace
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: These days are absolutely pivotal for the world. As I said, it’s extraordinary. Ukraine, Israel, Palestine, Iran, India, Pakistan and China are all absolutely active on the foreign policy agenda right now. This moment, this day, this is an overload. But on all of these, there is the chance for a peaceful outcome.
President Trump is actually pursuing the peaceful outcome on each of these right now. I hope he sticks with that and perseveres over naysayers, over the neocons and so on, because he has a chance to make a historic breakthrough that is absolutely phenomenal, and I think we should be rooting for that success.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: I hope he’s listening to you. I know he has listened to you in the past. We know that he posted a clip of a brilliant speech that you gave at Cambridge University which was harshly critical of Prime Minister Netanyahu. And he posted that portion of it. You spoke about other items. He posted that portion of it. So somebody in the White House is aware of what you say and gets this to the president. And some of it maybe, please, Lord. Much of it he finds attractive and compelling.
Professor Sachs, thank you very much for your time. Thanks for a great conversation. Thanks for the optimism for the first time in your voice and tone and in the events that are happening. We may have to come back to you later this week if these things happen.
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: We’ll do that. Let’s hope for some good news. Let’s hope. And we’ll talk very soon.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Yes. Thank you, Professor. All the best.
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: Great. Bye.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Bye. Bye. Coming up tomorrow on all of these topics, Tuesday at 8 in the morning, Ambassador Charles Freeman. At 11 in the morning, Colonel Douglas MacGregor. At 3 in the afternoon, Colonel Karen Kwatkowski. Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom.
