Transcript: The Lone Hacker That Found NASA’s Secret UFO Fleet @American Alchemy

And when you do wide-scale phishing like that, some fish bite. And that was my basic method for getting entrance to these places.

The Hack Begins: Blank Passwords on Military Networks

JESSE MICHELS: And so some of these extremely sensitive American military sites had blank passwords? That’s crazy. I mean, although that seems beyond belief, it also makes sense. Like, the government’s way more incompetent than often — especially people in UFO world — give them credit for, because we assume they have workable reverse-engineered crafts that they know how to use at will. So of course you would have passwords set up. But 2000 is early Internet. We were still worried about Y2K. We didn’t really understand how a lot of this stuff worked. It was this big experiment. So wow. So that fishing thing came up with some fish, yeah. And as you say, the government —

GARY MCKINNON: — really isn’t tailored for this, especially the military. They didn’t then employ specialized IT workers. They trained up existing military employees in the basic techniques to run a network. So there weren’t advanced, security-aware guys running government networks or military networks.

JESSE MICHELS: And are you, so while you’re doing this, are you just like sitting in an apartment or something?

GARY MCKINNON: It’s a bit embarrassing. My girlfriend and I at the time were living in her auntie’s house on the ground floor, and I was in my dressing gown up to like 4 in the morning, smoking weed, drinking beer. Just the ride of my life, really, for a youngish guy. I think I was 36 at the time.

JESSE MICHELS: I don’t think that’s embarrassing for you. I think it’s embarrassing for the sites you hacked into. Okay, so you’re getting a little late-night buzz, and you’re at your girlfriend’s aunt’s house, and you’re just like, “I want to know for myself what’s going on in UFO world.” You do this blank password search, you actually come up with some results as far as sites that you can get into. What do you look at first?

Mapping the Target Networks

GARY MCKINNON: Well, the first thing I had to do was test my method. So I did that on British sites. We’re currently in Cambridge, home of the famous university. I had Cambridge’s FTP server — file transfer protocol server — and Oxford as well, and a couple of polytechnics at the time, which are now universities. And I realized the technique worked. If you cast a wide enough net, something’s going to come in.

And then I thought, okay, let’s go for the locations. My list of locations all came from the Disclosure Project book. And also there was — I forget the title of it — there was like a hackers’ network document going around, a list of potential UFO secrecy sites. And I took some of the names from there. But all that told you was the network names or the particular Department of Defense sub-department that owned that network.

So I used a site at the time which was called ARIN’s IP index. And this guy had done some work — he’d used domain search tools and built a huge list of who owns what subnets. So I could just grab a block, plug it into my script, and scan like a quarter of a million computers in eight minutes. Typically, 5% would respond, and then from that 5%, a further 5% would have blank passwords.

JESSE MICHELS: Okay, got it. So you do this narrowing process and you end up with — what is it, like 97 sites that you can get into or something like that?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, that was the end result, which —

JESSE MICHELS: — is a lot of sites. And what do the sites include as far as acronyms that people would be familiar with, or program names people would be familiar with?

GARY MCKINNON: Okay, so NSA. I got into Fort Meade, DISA — Defense Information Systems Agency — DoD networks, basic Army networks, Navy networks, USAF — US Air Force networks.

Inside the Networks: The Search Begins

JESSE MICHELS: Okay, wow. So those are some pretty intense organizations that, at the very least, we know hold the keys to all sorts of military technology secrets that confer a tactical advantage to the US — if not some of these deeper, more interesting mysteries that you and I share an interest in. So what do you do next as far as your search, and what do you find?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, okay, so I’m one guy. I’ve got potentially thousands of IPs to search — individual computers. And once you find a blank password — and these are Windows networks — you need to become the administrator, which is the highest local account, and eventually the domain administrator, which controls the entire network. So once I was on one PC on a network, I would then attack the domain server and get that password, and that’s through dictionary attacks, password cracking. I actually used a tool called LOphtCrack. I don’t know if that’s still around.

And once I’d done that, it’s a huge job for one person. Huge job. So I found a program called LAN Search — this is all commercially off-the-shelf available software. And what LAN Search enabled me to do was to type in a search term and it would search every file and folder on all the local PCs that I had control of, which could be — I think the largest I did was 5,000 at one time, which took hours.

So yeah, that was my system for making it doable for one person. And also, it depends on your search terms. These files aren’t going to be called “UFO secrets.” So I had to look for things like “secret,” “top secret” — just anything. And PDF documents were particularly helpful. A lot of stuff was in PDF back then, and the redacting they did on PDFs back then was not fully redacted. You could un-redact it once you downloaded the file to your own PC.

So it was a huge network-wide document search, just grabbing what I could, spending hours getting it, and then spending hours reading it and trawling through it.

The Solar Warden Rumor and Free Energy Search

JESSE MICHELS: Are you, when you’re spending hours reading it, is this like you backed this stuff up on a hard drive or is it just on your PC?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, downloaded to my PC.

JESSE MICHELS: Okay, so it’s just on your PC?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: Wow. And so you’re going through all this stuff. Were there any other things you saw that were interesting outside of the crazy kind of UFO related stuff that you found? Was there anything else that you saw while searching through these documents?

GARY MCKINNON: I was looking for free energy as well. I never found anything to do with that. One thing I have to say, I never found anything to do with Solar Warden. Solar Warden is a huge rumor that was started by an anonymous poster on the Above Top Secret forum. So there’s no evidence for Solar Warden and I have nothing to do with it. Never heard of it, apart from rumors pertaining to myself.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah. For the audience, Solar Warden has become associated with these sort of secret space program Gaia people, like Corey Goode, who say that we have humans in deep space right now and they engage in these like 20-years-and-back missions or whatever, and there’s like a documentary on it. It’s the worst documentary I think I’ve ever seen.

GARY MCKINNON: I bet it is. I totally believe in a secret space program, but I don’t believe Corey Goode.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, well that’s the thing. It’s like Pizzagate and Epstein. The best way to debunk the truth, or to pre-immunize the population from ever actually looking into the truth, is to kind of inoculate them. Send out stuff that is directly adjacent to the truth and then ensure that that gets debunked because it’s so prima facie ridiculous.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. Standard intel technique.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah. So the fact that there’s some sort of standard intel technique at play — the fact that an anonymous blog post spawned all these people flooding the zone with secret space program stuff makes me think that there might actually be something next to that that might be true. That dovetails with what you did find. Anything else that you found that was interesting before the crazy stuff?

Soldiers on Submarines Taking LSD

GARY MCKINNON: Nothing to do with ET or anything like that, but it’s very interesting. On one site I found the jailer’s file. Every military base has a jailer, and it’s just crazy. You’ve got guys taking LSD that work on submarines.

JESSE MICHELS: Really?

GARY MCKINNON: So lots of interesting human stories.

JESSE MICHELS: Wait, they’re taking LSD that work on submarines?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, well, the soldiers, basically — “I’m on a submarine, I’m tripping now.” They’re doing drugs. They’ve got Hell’s Angels gangs bringing in the drugs. So that was interesting for a human story. It’s nothing to do with what we’re here to discuss today, but entertaining.

JESSE MICHELS: Okay, that’s fascinating. I thought for a second you were talking about like MK Ultra mind control, like taking LSD at the bottom of submarines and testing consciousness. Okay, so just, recreationally —

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: Spice it up down there.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: Interesting.

GARY MCKINNON: Make the nine to five less boring. Yeah.

The Search for UFO Propulsion Technology

JESSE MICHELS: And so you’re systematically looking for UFOs, looking for free energy. Any other kind of terms that are on your mind going into this search?

GARY MCKINNON: No, that was my main focus. And with UFOs, it was particularly the propulsion. What I was interested in was the energy and the propulsion. Aliens didn’t excite me so much because I’m sure they exist — it’s a huge universe. But I wanted something that we could use. I was convinced that it was secret technology, something they knew about that the populace at large wasn’t allowed to have access to.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, well, I think you were onto something. Maybe.

GARY MCKINNON: But in Britain at the time, we had old age pensioners who couldn’t pay their fuel bills. And energy was a really sad story for a lot of people. So to have something that was free —

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah.

GARY MCKINNON: It was just too juicy not to have a go at finding.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah. I mean, it would be hugely disruptive to establishment institutions if our energy prices dropped from, you know, 50 bucks per kilowatt hour to like 50 cents per kilowatt hour. That would be hugely disruptive. It just would.

GARY MCKINNON: I think it’s a control mechanism, isn’t it? Energy as well, just like water is starting to be. Food has been for a while.

Energy, Geopolitics, and Exotic Physics

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah. Anything that’s scarce and can be accrued at the top, I think, is totally a control mechanism. And anybody who doesn’t think that having access to a critical threshold of oil has not determined American foreign policy over the last 70 years is nuts. You see it with Maduro in Venezuela and then worries about what’s going on in Iran vis-à-vis that. It’s all very obviously interconnected. I mean, Desert Storm in the early 90s was basically pulled off because Saddam Hussein, in overtaking Kuwait, controlled a fifth of the world’s oil supply. And that was just unacceptable.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. And one thing about Venezuela is it wasn’t just America’s domestic supply. It was what foreign powers could get. China was about to do a deal with Venezuela.

JESSE MICHELS: That’s right.

GARY MCKINNON: I think it would only amount to like 1 or 2% of China’s imports. But it’s still something.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, still something. They’re sitting on a lot of oil there. And you see these crazy sort of game theory dynamics vis-à-vis China taking place with Greenland and other places. And if you look at why the US had to back down off this recent trade agreement deal with China and kind of concede some things, it was due to rare earth refinement being basically a monopoly in China. These things are very real things geopolitically. And so I agree with you — I think it’s very interesting if there’s any sort of novel, exotic physics that’s stuck in a compartment in the government. I’d like to know as well.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: And I even think there are probably interesting ways to use it geopolitically — like if it’s some sort of carrot, like, okay, maybe you don’t give it to gross dictators or whatever, but it’s a way to incentivize reform or something. But just keeping it to yourself — that seems wrong, maybe.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. But you’re right. It’s a real hard line to walk, isn’t it? How do you have that public for you, but not public for other countries? Because you have spies and —

JESSE MICHELS: Totally. And there are dual use implications for a lot of things. A good example would be controlled fusion, which would allow for sort of free energy if you have over unity. But then fusion also creates the hydrogen bomb. And so if you had some free energy device that you were putting in a compartment or something, if that also allowed a kid in his bedroom to blow up the world — you do have to do some calculations.

There’s this guy, Ashton Forbes, who I don’t know if you’re familiar with him, but he talks about MH370, these orbs wrapping around the plane and then it zaps it, and he’s sure that there’s free energy being held by —

GARY MCKINNON: The most fascinating thing about that was, where’s the provenance for that video? It’s never been shown.

JESSE MICHELS: It’s never been. Yeah, we don’t know. But okay, so what do you find next?

Donna Hare and the Airbrushed UFO Photos at NASA

GARY MCKINNON: So there was a special witness for Stephen Greer’s Disclosure Project called Donna Hare. She was a NASA launch photographic specialist. I think she had secret clearance because she’d get very close-up photos of all the mechanics and engineering and stuff for launches, and the launch platform, under the launch platform.

She said that she worked in Building 8 of Johnson Space Center, JSC, and that her colleague who worked across the corridor — and this is all something he shouldn’t have done — they chatted, had lunch together or whatever, and one day he just beckoned her across the corridor and said, “Come and take a look at this.”

This is the days of analog photography. He’s got big contact sheets and slides, developed under red light and silver nitrate. And he says, “What do you think this is?” And there was a huge white disc on this satellite photo of the Earth. She, being a photographic expert herself, said, “Oh, it’s just a blob in the emulsion,” the old chemical of the sheets.

JESSE MICHELS: And then he’s grinning and he says, “Dots on the emulsion don’t leave round shadows on the ground.”

GARY MCKINNON: And there was a round shadow at

JESSE MICHELS: the right angle, at the correct angle. The sun shining on the trees. I saw pine trees, I didn’t see a coastline. I don’t know where this was. But I looked at him and I

GARY MCKINNON: was pretty startled because I’d worked there

JESSE MICHELS: several years and never seen anything like this, never heard of anything like this. And I said, “Is this a UFO?” And he’s smiling at me and he says, “I can’t tell you that.” So I said, “What are you going to do with this information?” And he said, “Well, we always have to airbrush them out before we sell

GARY MCKINNON: them to the public,” because they sell the imagery to colleges, universities — Earth shots and magnificent scenes from space. So his job was to blot this stuff out and make sure it wouldn’t get seen.

And they didn’t have Photoshop then. The airbrush term literally comes from a physical airbrush on the emulsion where they just blur things. And you see lots of examples of this in lunar photography from the Clementine Mission, the Lunar Orbiter, the LRO — Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter.

So I read this story, absolutely fascinated. Here was this highly qualified woman who’d worked for a long time at NASA, and I think the Air Force previously to that.

JESSE MICHELS: And did she say disc? She said flying saucer. Yeah, okay. And she said — so that shape, the circular shape.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. And the shadow.

JESSE MICHELS: Okay, wow.

Inside Johnson Space Center — Building 8

GARY MCKINNON: And I was already in Johnson Space Center at the time, so I thought, “Building 8 — I wonder if that’s still running,” because she worked there in, I think, the late 80s or the early 90s.

JESSE MICHELS: So you’re in the Johnson Space Center files on your PC, going —

GARY MCKINNON: I was already there when I read that.

JESSE MICHELS: Okay, yeah.

Discovering the NASA UFO Image

GARY MCKINNON: So I thought, I’ve got to have a look. Yeah, got to have a look. And I thought, how the hell do I find Building 8? But luckily Windows has — you can do network commands in a console rather than a GUI with a mouse. And you can type it like netstat. Network status tells you all the people connected to the machine. And there’s other commands whereby NASA are great auditors of their system. So they have these special commands for auditing where you see the machine, the PC, the number, the serial number, the date when it was last maintained, all stuff like that and the building it’s in.

So I ran those commands that produced a list and I stripped out, I think it was about 1500 machines or maybe 150 machines. But once I stripped out the Building 8 machines, there was only like a dozen maybe. And I ran the blank password script on them and I think about half of them were accessible. And the first one I looked at was the one where I saw the picture and it was strange.

I did a lot of network support before that as well. And most users’ desktops are covered in stuff, shortcuts, emails, like electronic post-it notes. And these were very bare desktops. All they had was like two folders, Raw and Processed, and maybe a couple of other shortcuts. I thought, I’ve got to look at this. It’s got to be images. It’s where she said it was. It looks like images. It says Raw, it says Processed.

And I double clicked into the folders and it’s a proprietary NASA image format that I can’t run on my desktop. Not a JPEG, not a PNG. So what I had to do was basically — there was a — I basically had to run NASA’s software. I had to double click on the desktop because my hacking method, although I’d get in there with a blank password, which was CLI command line, once I was in there, I was using PC Anywhere — I think it still exists. It’s like you’re sitting at the desktop, you can see the screen on your screen.

And so I double clicked this, but it was very, very slow. I was on a 56k dial up, which — to give some idea of the speed — if you download an MP3 music file now, you’ve got it in a few seconds. Then it was five minutes per megabyte. And a song might be three megabytes, so 50 minutes for one song. No one would even accept that now.

So I double clicked this. It was taking ages. I canceled it. I turned down my remote graphical remote control thing into like eight-bit color, then four-bit color. Eventually I think, yeah, four-bit color or two-bit color. It was basically four or five different colors. That was a shitty image. But it came on the screen like, almost line by line — a few lines at a time. So it’s coming in blocks and I’m looking and there’s like blackness. Then slowly a hemisphere started appearing. And I’m thinking, f*, that’s a planet. What the hell? This could be what she said.

Then the hemisphere comes into view and it’s very blocky, but it’s kind of blue and white. So I’m thinking it must be Earth. And then suddenly there’s a big straight kind of silvery line that is coming down. That’s, I guess what they now call a Tic Tac, but it’s what we used to call a cigar shaped object. And this thing was admittedly low resolution, it’s coming down slowly. But this thing looked very kind of smooth on the outside. There were no lines — whether we’d be like plates fixed or screws and bolts and stuff. And I was just thinking, my God, this is my Eureka moment. Confirmed, Donna’s story. Not that Donna’s story needs confirming.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah.

GARY MCKINNON: And it got to — I got the whole ship in view and then it started to go below that where I would see the rest of the sphere of the Earth. I assume it was the Earth. And it was just amazing. The only man-made, possibly man-made thing that was there was like geodesic domes, like radar stations, one on top, below on both sides. And I thought, well, that’s strange. It’s kind of man-made looking, but not man-made looking.

And then I’ve got graphical remote control. I see the mouse move. Someone else — the person — someone else is at the computer themselves and they’re moving the mouse. They’ve right clicked on the local area network icon, right next to your clock on the bottom right of your Windows taskbar — Disconnect — and boom, that was it, gone. I was cut out. And I’m sitting there like waiting.

JESSE MICHELS: Oh my God.

GARY MCKINNON: For my Eureka moment. Come on, come on, come on.

JESSE MICHELS: Oh my God. Anything else on the cigar? So smooth. No rivets or seams. It’s hovering above the Earth. Do you notice anything else?

GARY MCKINNON: No. Just like a very smooth cylinder, the geodesic domes and the little dome.

JESSE MICHELS: Dome on top, dome on bottom.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. And either end. Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: And on either end.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. Well, that could just be the kind of cigar —

JESSE MICHELS: Sure.

GARY MCKINNON: Tube, like the closure of the cylinder.

JESSE MICHELS: Sure, sure. Fascinating.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

Corroborating Donna Hare’s Account

JESSE MICHELS: So interesting. And did you ever speak with — yourself or through intermediaries — with Donna Hare?

GARY MCKINNON: Oh, yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: And did she say that’s the disc that I saw? Because I think of disc with her and then cigar Tic Tac with you.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, she saw that one photo disc, but she also spoke to —

JESSE MICHELS: Okay, so these are probably different images. You’re just confirming that the same building probably has a whole lot of images that they’re sitting on.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. Even though it might be 10 or 20 years later, apparently this is still the place where there’s images.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, yeah.

GARY MCKINNON: UFOs or exotic craft, and they’re being airbrushed out.

JESSE MICHELS: It is proof that — I mean, it’s really interesting that you have a whistleblower come out with nobody having any evidence for her claims at this point. And she says, this is where we process the images. I was shown this image, Building 8, Johnson Space Center. You independently, halfway across the world, hack into Johnson Space Center, look at Building 8, and then one of the first things that pops up on your screen is an image of a UFO hovering above the Earth, which is clearly not the exact same UFO. But it’s definitely exotic.

GARY MCKINNON: It’s nothing — it wasn’t a rocket, it wasn’t ISS, it wasn’t like a space lab or —

JESSE MICHELS: Well, it doesn’t sound like a satellite to me. A cigar, like rotating around.

GARY MCKINNON: There’s no antennae either. There’s nothing. No telemetry or sensor-looking stuff.

Tic Tac Sightings and the Broader UFO Pattern

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, no, that is wild. And then also now we have the lucky hindsight, in 2026, of Commander David Fravor’s experience of 2004, just a few years later off the coast of San Diego, where he sees a Tic Tac object. And they have apparently radar. We’ve seen the FLIR imaging, the thermal imaging of this thing. It’s for everyone to see. The Pentagon has verified that that’s real.

GARY MCKINNON: All four of us, because we were in an F-18F, so we had pilots and Wizzo in the back seat, looked down —

JESSE MICHELS: Saw a white Tic Tac object with a —

GARY MCKINNON: Longitudinal axis pointing north-south and moving very abruptly over the water like a ping pong ball.

JESSE MICHELS: It rapidly accelerated in front of us and disappeared. Our wingman, roughly 8,000 feet above us, lost contact also.

And then you have a lot of other witnesses. You have his co-pilot, you have another plane and two pilots in that plane. You have a whole lot — you have the obviously radar, some guys on the ship. Exactly. So are you the first — I mean, I believe there’s some other Tic Tac and cigar — there are Air Force documents from the late 40s that describe flying butane tanks. I don’t know if you know about this. Yeah, David Grusch, famous UFO whistleblower, has talked about this. And then in Robert Hastings’ great book, UFOs and Nukes, which talks about UFOs showing up at nuclear installations all over the world, including in the UK actually at Rendlesham Forest in 1980 — really famous case — he talks about Tic Tacs or cigar shaped objects often being sort of like a mothership and saucers flying out of the Tic Tacs.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, I think that was it. Malmstrom AFB in America as well, similar thing happened. Yeah, like definitely a mothership kind of configuration.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, no, a ton has happened at Malmstrom actually. So it’s definitely likely that in certain cases some sort of Tic Tac — because a Tic Tac or cigar is one of the most common descriptions people have.

The Varginha Case and Memory Metal

There’s a case — we were just talking earlier — thank you, James Fox, great documentarian, for the intro to Gary. He’s a great guy. And we were saying that he sort of single-handedly resuscitated this obscure Brazilian UFO crash in 1996, the Varginha case. And there’s a guy, Carlos de Souza, who’s an ultralight pilot and geography teacher, who literally saw the crash and he felt the material. Just like in Roswell with Jesse Marcel, he feels the material and it feels like memory metal.

GARY MCKINNON: I could see quite a few pieces —

JESSE MICHELS: Of debris on the ground, and I —

GARY MCKINNON: Picked them up and it was kind of curved. And then I was surprised to see how light it was, so I said, I’ll keep it.

JESSE MICHELS: So I crunched it up and so I made this kind of movement to put it in my pocket.

GARY MCKINNON: And what happened was this foil or —

JESSE MICHELS: This sheet regained its shape.

GARY MCKINNON: So I thought, what is this? I was completely floored.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, it sprung back into its original shape. And guess what the shape of the craft was that he saw that crashed.

GARY MCKINNON: Right.

JESSE MICHELS: Cigar, Tic Tac. Yeah.

GARY MCKINNON: So, yeah, lots of synchronicities there.

First Instincts: Alien or Man-Made?

JESSE MICHELS: What was your first instinct when you saw it? How did you feel and what did you think? Often I think, like if you’re taking a multiple choice test, your first instinct’s often right, and then you second guess yourself. Did you have like an on-the-spot interpretation?

GARY MCKINNON: I’m not an aeronautics expert or a space vehicle expert, but I’ve watched space stuff with interest since I was a kid, and it wasn’t your normal space stuff, so I knew that. But there wasn’t — I didn’t know if it was extraterrestrial. I still don’t, obviously. It could be something man-made, but it was definitely something secret because it was nothing like we already have up there.

JESSE MICHELS: Did you have any sort of instinct of — I mean, the obvious question is like, is it ours or is it theirs?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, that’s the big distinction. Well, I think because of Donna Hare’s story, my instinct was that, yeah, it was alien, because that’s what she described. She described unknown things in high-res NASA satellite imagery that they had to airbrush out because — I don’t know — maybe they thought it would panic the public or they had no explanation for it.

JESSE MICHELS: And what did she say as far as why they airbrushed it out and didn’t just admit, yeah, we’re surrounded by these cool, exotic objects?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, we shared a few emails. She’s passed now, unfortunately. God bless us all. And we had one — I think it was like a two and a half hour, three hour phone conversation. And she thinks — just like a lot of us do — that a lot has been hidden. It’s been hidden for reasons of control. But it’s weird when you try and extrapolate from this. You think, well, wouldn’t you use technology like that in a war if you had that? Would you use it openly to your own advantage? So to me, that tells me that it’s still unknown even to the people of the highest authority on that subject.

The UFO Fleet Image and Its Implications

JESSE MICHELS: I think that’s right. If it’s not well known and it’s flying with impunity over our nuclear sites and sensitive airspace and in space next to our recon satellites and stuff, you would be extremely embarrassed. You wouldn’t be able to admit it. But if you did know what was going on, you would just tell the public. “Yeah, we not only know what’s going on,” and then you try to signal that you know what’s going on and you’ve reverse engineered it, because you’d want to kind of soften the enemy sort of thing.

And so I actually think some of modern disclosure might be intel tactics to try to say that we know more than we do, but also recruit on the topic, because actually they don’t really know what’s going on.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. Embarrassment is a huge factor.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah.

GARY MCKINNON: Even just my hacking was an embarrassment. So if they’re embarrassed about something like that, can you imagine? It’s just indeterminable. It’s hugely different. And also fear, because why are they here?

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah.

GARY MCKINNON: What are they doing? Why are they interested in nuclear missiles? Is it for protection of us? Is it that we destabilize some kind of interdimensional thing? We’re messing with atoms.

JESSE MICHELS: Did you get the sense — yeah, right. We are doing a lot of genetics, atoms, biowarfare. So when you saw this thing, did you get the sense that it was moving in a predictable orbit? I mean, it’s a static image, so you have no way of knowing. But did you get the sense that it was moving in an orbit, or that it was just kind of maneuvering around?

GARY MCKINNON: Well, I’ve seen photos of LEO, low Earth orbit stuff, and this looked to be — I mean, I have no idea of the scale of this thing — but with the hemisphere, it was way beyond low Earth orbit.

JESSE MICHELS: Okay.

GARY MCKINNON: But I don’t know, I mean —

Fast Walkers and the Defense Support Program

JESSE MICHELS: There’s actually a WikiLeaks email with John Podesta on it that’s been deleted from the Internet. But still, if you go on the Wayback Machine, I think there are some Reddit forums that discuss this. It’s definitely a real email. And he is talking with a contractor from some aerospace corporation, I think in California. He mentions the contractor — I think the guy’s name is Bob Fish. He said they were having lunch together, and this is him recalling it in the email. And Fish says, “Yeah, we spotted some fast walkers today.”

I think this was in specific reference to the DSP, the Defense Support Program, which I think is this very deep geostationary recon thing that the Air Force does. This was the Air Force at the time, because now Space Force would do it, post-2019. But I wonder if you saw a fast walker, because also if you try to FOIA fast walkers, which John Greenwald did, the Space Force gets back and says, clearly there are some records, but we can’t talk about them.

GARY MCKINNON: Wasn’t there a CIA FOIA to do with fast walkers as well?

JESSE MICHELS: Maybe, maybe. Yeah, it might be. The CIA actually might not even be space — I might be getting that wrong. But yeah, interesting. So I guess one question would be, was it lateral to the Earth? Because I think it wouldn’t make sense to me if it was vertical to the Earth. Like if the butt was facing the Earth, I’d be like, that doesn’t feel like an orbit. Like it’s in a predictable orbit. You know what I mean?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, it was definitely —

JESSE MICHELS: It was lateral, 90 degrees to the Earth.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. So it’s horizontal.

JESSE MICHELS: Horizontal.

GARY MCKINNON: I wasn’t seeing it end on. So you’re right, it was in a position to be —

JESSE MICHELS: Rotating around, possibly in orbit. Traveling past, or just traveling past. Yeah, yeah.

GARY MCKINNON: Or —

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah. Okay. So it wasn’t going directly at the Earth. It was moving laterally somewhat. Okay, interesting. Any other detail? I guess you don’t know color, right, because it’s silvery white?

GARY MCKINNON: I mean, it was in like two-bit color, okay, or maybe four-bit. But yeah, it was very kind of blocky. And it was definitely white, silvery white.

JESSE MICHELS: And did you see any sort of — I guess I don’t know how you’d see a shadow, but did you see any sort of — this is so far out from Earth?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: Interesting. What do you think photographed it?

The Satellites Pointed Outward

GARY MCKINNON: Very good question. Yeah. So this takes me to — I referenced the Disclosure Project a lot because that was the root of a lot of my locations and research at the time. And one of their witnesses — I forget his name — he was a designee and he got a lot of the information to do with the satellites. And he was the one that said most of these satellites are actually pointed outwards, and they’re not like low Earth orbit communication satellites. So I assume if you’ve got very far out satellites looking outwards, you can also rotate them and look inwards. So that’s the only thing I could think of.

JESSE MICHELS: Okay. So that is fascinating. How are you feeling when you see that?

GARY MCKINNON: Oh, man. I was ready to inform the press, tell the world. Oh, my God. NASA knows, and NASA has known for ages. And Donahue was right. And then — bump — disconnected as it’s loading.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah. So it hasn’t even fully loaded.

GARY MCKINNON: I saw just under the bottom half of the ship.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah.

GARY MCKINNON: And then disconnect.

The Witch Hunt: 70 Years in Prison

JESSE MICHELS: And you have no reason to lie about this. You’ve never made any money off of this. And if anything, you were put on a witch trial. There’s sort of this witch hunt for 20 years where they wanted to put you in prison for 70 years.

VIDEO CLIP BEGINS:

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mr. McKinnon is accused of serious crimes. On his visit to the White House, David Cameron spoke to President Obama about the case and both agreed they could find an appropriate solution. We talked about the case of computer hacker Gary McKinnon, on which the Prime Minister has expressed very clear views. You said you would work together to find a solution. So have you found one?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Well, on Mr. McKinnon, we have proceeded through all the processes required under our extradition agreements. It is now in the hands of the British legal system. We have confidence in the British legal system coming to a just conclusion. And so we await resolution and we’ll be respectful of that process.

VIDEO CLIP ENDS:

GARY MCKINNON: Well, we had talks and they said, “Look, if you just come along, don’t fight it, you do between 8 and 20 — like, that’s a good deal.” No, thank you. I’ll fight it.

And yeah, that was actually horrible. It was very depressing. I found out my own government — because governments are made up of individuals, and individuals have ties to other individuals — in the DOJ and the CPS, some of them wanted me gone too. Just as a favor to the US, not because of anything to do with right or wrong or truth or justice, just as a favor. Political porn. So that was awful. Not just for me, but my family, your mom and dad.

JESSE MICHELS: And weren’t there some allegations of a meeting that was had at the American Embassy where it was like, “We want his head,” or something? Like, very extreme language was used?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. Ed Gibson, who was attaché to the US Embassy in London at the time, met with my lawyer and he said, “We want to see him fry.” Electric chair reference.

JESSE MICHELS: Jesus Christ.

GARY MCKINNON: When she told me that — Karen, amazing lawyer, stuck with us all through this and fought and fought and fought. Yeah, I was just — I mean, we already knew they played dirty, because people have to realize, politics isn’t about people being safe and well looked after. It’s about the state, the furtherance of the state and its objectives, and the protection of your state from foreign states.

Snowden, Assange, and Gary McKinnon

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, no, that is definitely the lay of the land, as is national security. And I just find it interesting that, okay, you have guys like Snowden and Assange — wherever you lie with them, whether you think they’re courageous and ideological in a way that really exposed all sorts of issues with the intel world and mass surveillance and stuff, or whether you think they put Americans abroad in danger or whatever. I think there is some nuance there. I do think some people in the intel world who talk about this say there are some real bad effects around this.

GARY MCKINNON: In Assange’s defense, he had lots of phone calls before releasing that information. So he actually agreed it with people in the State Department.

JESSE MICHELS: I didn’t know that. Yeah, well, there you go. But whatever you think of those cases — like, maybe there’s some more gray area or debate to be had or whatever — in your case, you’re just smoking weed in your girlfriend’s aunt’s little flat and it’s 4am and you’re just a dude who’s interested in UFOs since you were a child and you want to figure it out.

And so to me, if it’s the US — like, get your sh together. That should be on you. You should be — it’s almost like they might have lashed out so much at you because they were embarrassed. You literally — it’s on them. It’s not on this poor English citizen who clearly — I don’t think you’re particularly ideologically set on destroying America.

GARY MCKINNON: I love that. Chicago.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, we’ll get to that more meta conversation. But you also found some other pretty crazy things while you were searching in your girlfriend’s aunt’s flat. So yeah, what else did you find besides this Tic Tac?

Non-Terrestrial Officers: A Secret Space Program?

GARY MCKINNON: I think I was on a Navy system at the time — I can’t remember, cloud of weed, et cetera. But there was a spreadsheet, an Excel spreadsheet. Because I was saying earlier about my search terms — it was UFOs, extraterrestrial, anything, spacecraft, anything I could think of, which probably wouldn’t be in the title of the document. But this spreadsheet was titled “Non-Terrestrial Officers.” So not on the Earth, which isn’t necessarily alien. It could just mean space-based Marines or a secret space force.

And that was incredible. It had ship names, it had materiel — the military spelling, not material. And it was transfers of weird chemicals like molybdenum and other weird things that are hard to pronounce. Ship-to-ship transfers and fleet-to-fleet transfers. And at the time I looked up the ship names thinking US Navy must be boats. Nothing, absolutely nothing.

JESSE MICHELS: Do you remember the names of the people?

GARY MCKINNON: No, I don’t remember any of the names of the people, but there were long lists. I think it was just initial and surname. I don’t think there were first names. And the ship names — I was expecting like USS Lincoln or, you know, Navy ships, but there was none of that. Everything I — and it wasn’t Google at the time, I think it was AltaVista, the biggest search engine at the time — none of it was seagoing vessels.

JESSE MICHELS: So you see a list of non-terrestrial officers and then you also see chemicals. What are the names of these chemicals?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, molybdenum, barium, something was in there. They were very exotic. So what does that imply?

JESSE MICHELS: Do you remember the exact — so what is molybdenum? Have you looked up what the uses are of this?

The Non-Terrestrial Officers and the Space Supply Chain

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, I remember molybdenum? I can’t say it now. Molybdenum, they’re very exotic. They’re used in, like, magnetics. Lots of very kind of exotic industrial processes. A lot to do with metal hardening, if I remember right. Like metallurgy. Like, you make an alloy and it makes it stronger than the original two components.

So again, that time, now years later, with the research you’ve done, the people you’ve interviewed, it’s all making more sense. Especially when we come to the biofuel brown stuff and dielectrics.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, we’ll get to that.

GARY MCKINNON: And like nanodeposition of thin layer materials.

JESSE MICHELS: Yes. Thinly layered, thinner than a human hair or whatever. Micron layered. This one sample is engineered in layers

GARY MCKINNON: thinner than microns through a process unknown

JESSE MICHELS: on Earth and for a purpose we can only guess. Multilayered bismuth and magnesium sample. Bismuth layers, less than a human hair,

GARY MCKINNON: supposedly picked up in the crash retrieval of an advanced aerospace vehicle.

JESSE MICHELS: Nowhere could we find any evidence that anybody ever made one of these. Okay, this is fascinating, though. So you see a list of how many non terrestrial officers.

GARY MCKINNON: Oh, man. So my screen at the time was the old, like 800 by 600 monitors. I think I might have had 1024 by 768 resolution at the time. So your typical Excel spreadsheet without zooming in, when you just load it up was probably 24 lines. And I think there was about one and a half or two pages. So maybe like 30, 40 names.

JESSE MICHELS: You don’t remember any of the last names?

GARY MCKINNON: No, sorry.

JESSE MICHELS: You’re killing me.

GARY MCKINNON: No, I’m kidding me.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, you gotta give us a little breadcrumb.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. This is one of the main criticisms of me. Why didn’t you take a bloody screenshot? Just alt, print, screen, alt, print. But I did, actually. I downloaded that Excel spreadsheet and when I got arrested, all my data was taken to ONI, Office of Naval Intelligence. So they still have my hard drives. I’ve tried to get them back for years and they said no, it’s still an ongoing investigation. You can’t touch it.

Office of Naval Intelligence and the UFO Connection

JESSE MICHELS: Office of Naval Intelligence is the oldest intelligence agency in the U.S. I think it’s 1882 and it’s often deeply implicated in UFOs.

GARY MCKINNON: 1882.

JESSE MICHELS: 1882. So the National Security Act, which created the CIA was 1947. And then you had the OSS before that, which was kind of this wartime foreign intelligence effort. Yeah, but the Office of Naval Intelligence well predates all of that. And you had Thomas Townsend Brown doing a lot of spooky science work for the Navy.

And then you have this guy, Harold Malmgren, who kind of ended up giving me kind of a — turned into kind of a deathbed confession at the end of his life. And it was wild. I mean, he was like, “The Office of Naval Intelligence knows the most about this issue. And once you go in that door, the door shuts and you can’t get let out.”

GARY MCKINNON: Naval Intelligence are going to be around

JESSE MICHELS: asking you questions about your study. They’re going to get curious and if they talk to you for any length of time, they’ll say, “Holy s*, you

GARY MCKINNON: really know a lot.”

JESSE MICHELS: “They’re going to offer you special access. It’s how they operate.” I said, “What does that mean?” “They’ll open the doors, you’ll have full entry, the doors will shut and you’ll be no exit the rest of your life. That is a closed system.” And he kind of implied that they approached him in certain cases and because of the fact that it was this closed system, he didn’t want to engage.

GARY MCKINNON: Wow.

JESSE MICHELS: So very interesting. So they end up with your stuff.

The Arrest and Its Aftermath

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. Wow. Yeah, they were. When the British police — at the time it was the NHTCU, National High Tech Crime Unit in the UK — at first they said to me, “Oh, you’ll get six months.” It’s the Computer Act 1995 in Britain. Six bars, community service, no time. And then they went to America and visited ONI and other top brass and when they came back, the tone had totally changed. It was just really serious. Which of course eventually turned into facing 70 years in prison. So it was a huge, like using a hammer to crack a nut. It was, you know, David and Goliath, that whole thing.

JESSE MICHELS: So wild.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, well, it’s huge. Like you said earlier, I was just a guy, normal guy, interested in UFOs, happened to have some IT skills, a little bit of hacking, blank post, nothing genius level. And then next thing you know, boom, it just blows up.

Exotic Materials and Anti-Gravity Experiments

JESSE MICHELS: Try to make an example of you. So when you think about those chemicals and — we’ll get into our mutual interest in Thomas Townsend Brown and anti-gravity experiments — do you think that they could have been used to create special alloys or what you might call metamaterials in UFO world, which allow for greater thrust in these anti-gravity experiments?

Like, one thing that is true about the Biefeld-Brown effect and this anti-gravity experiment is that if you use an insulator in the middle that is considered a high K dielectric — which means it stores and discharges easily a lot of electromagnetism, a lot of electricity, it stores electric fields in it — specifically, the thrust you see in the experiment is much greater from the negative electrode to the positive electrode. So do you think that — I guess barium is actually in Townsend Brown’s documents. Like, he talks about it all the time.

GARY MCKINNON: Titanium.

JESSE MICHELS: Exactly. And then what was the other? I can never pronounce it. You looked into that and that’s for like creating alloys?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, I think it’s a strengthening alloy. It’s been a long time since I looked into it, but I think that’s what it was. It was like a strengthening alloy.

JESSE MICHELS: Any other chemicals?

GARY MCKINNON: It might have even had a shielding — not gravitational shielding, but like a radiation shielding or some kind. I think maybe similar to lead. But I’m not a physicist, so don’t quote me.

JESSE MICHELS: But it’s super interesting if it’s used on like current space vehicles. Like, people should go out and look that up. Because if it is, that might be an interesting lead.

GARY MCKINNON: Patent surgeons.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah. Any other chemicals?

GARY MCKINNON: Molybdenum, barium, strontium.

JESSE MICHELS: Strontium.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, strontium.

JESSE MICHELS: And strontium is also mentioned in Brown’s stuff, I believe. Can’t remember any others. Okay. But isn’t strontium — I believe it’s one of Gary Nolan’s pieces that he has at the Stanford lab that he thinks might be UFO metamaterials that come from crashes — I believe has strontium in it.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, that’s a good dielectric. I forget its K constant, but I

JESSE MICHELS: know it’s high, so it’s also a high K dielectric.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

Decoding the Fleet-to-Fleet Transfers

JESSE MICHELS: This is crazy. So you have a list of non terrestrial officers.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: And then what does the fleet to fleet thing mean?

GARY MCKINNON: This was fleet to fleet transfers because it was one spreadsheet, but it had tabs. So there was the officers’ names, there was ship names and there was a material transfer.

JESSE MICHELS: Do you remember the ship names?

GARY MCKINNON: No.

JESSE MICHELS: Okay. But when you’re looking at this, what is your instinct as to — because there are all sorts of wild interpretations people have. You know, people make up the secret space program, Solar Warden and stuff. What was your — you’re in the moment. What are you thinking when you see this?

GARY MCKINNON: Well, that’s exactly where I was. Imagine you were me, UFO guy, quite an active interest, and then finding this. And so obviously that’s where my first thoughts go. So I’m thinking non terrestrial officers — that’s the baseline for the whole document. So they’re not on Earth. But I was thinking, well, they could be. They’re probably — it’s probably people. They’re not non terrestrial because they’re not human. They’re non terrestrial because it’s non Earth based. So it’s out in space.

So space force was my first thought. Well, it’s got to be a space force, obviously secret. And then with the chemicals and stuff and the ship names, and fleet to fleet transfers — so there’s more than one ship. And then exotic materials. And so, it’s kind of two plus two equals four. Yeah, obviously it’s to do with my mindset. That’s what I was looking for. So that’s how I interpreted.

A New Theory: The Space Supply Chain

JESSE MICHELS: Well, you know what I would do if I was Office of Naval Intelligence and I hated Gary McKinnon? You know what I would do? I’d make up some BS secret space program, call it Solar Warden, send people down the wrong trail. When actually I do have real, deep space fleets and transfers of these.

GARY MCKINNON: So.

JESSE MICHELS: But the —

GARY MCKINNON: And Solar Warden did come after me, so.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, it did. So, but I’m still trying to get to the — so the transfer — what do you think that fleet to fleet transfer of what? Of people?

GARY MCKINNON: I think materials.

JESSE MICHELS: Materials.

GARY MCKINNON: First you have the people, then you have the ships, then you — chemicals.

JESSE MICHELS: Okay.

GARY MCKINNON: Metal elements.

JESSE MICHELS: Okay. And do we think that the material is being transferred between humans — do we think that the material is being transferred between extraterrestrials and humans, or do we think the material is being transferred between humans?

GARY MCKINNON: I think, yeah. Ship to ship. So I guess maybe this was kind of like a logistics train, like a

JESSE MICHELS: supply chain in space or something.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, yeah. Just a basic — because, you know, the Army’s all about — the Navy or whoever is all about logistics.

JESSE MICHELS: Right. And a lot of these materials, if they are layered extremely thinly and you have kind of atomic layer deposition style stuff — we know that manufacturing in space and in zero G environments allows you — so a lot of these materials, they go — it looks like it was built in zero G. Like, this is so crazy.

GARY MCKINNON: No faults. No.

JESSE MICHELS: So like, maybe they built it in zero G and then they’re conflating it with the UFO stuff, which actually just shows up around nukes and in other contexts or whatever. But they might have built it in zero G.

GARY MCKINNON: That’s the old Occam’s razor explanation, isn’t it? That’s the simplest.

JESSE MICHELS: Okay. So there’s like a space supply chain where humans are manufacturing these exotic materials in space that you literally couldn’t —

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: — make — physically impossible enough on Earth. Yes. Yeah, that’s fascinating. Has anybody ever explicitly tied together your thing like this, like we’re doing now?

GARY MCKINNON: This is fresh and unique.

JESSE MICHELS: I love this. This is fascinating because — I mean, that makes sense. That makes sense. Like, the other stuff doesn’t make sense. Maybe sending people 20 and back into — through the sun into a portal — maybe that’s possible. I don’t know.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, but super soldiers on Mars. No.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, super soldiers on Mars. I just — we need more evidence. I’ve entertained, whatever. But you need evidence. You know, you can’t just —

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, I’m open to all stories.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah. But this is fascinating. Okay, so it’s like a space supply chain — a space factory essentially — where they’re creating these metamaterials that you can’t make on Earth and you need deep space to create them.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: And then so the non terrestrial officers would just be humans overseeing this supply chain. This space supply chain.

GARY MCKINNON: Really good, because I never even saw it in that way before.

JESSE MICHELS: Oh, this is fascinating. And what’s ironic is they’re probably making space travel that much easier by creating these high dielectric —

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: — which involve greater thrust in the Biefeld-Brown effect.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: So they’re like making their own program more powerful.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. With the —

JESSE MICHELS: This is fascinating.

GARY MCKINNON: Wow.

JESSE MICHELS: Wow. All right.

A Strange Implant and Government Tracking

GARY MCKINNON: I like that. I like discovery as we go.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah. I mean, who knows?

GARY MCKINNON: But that makes speculation.

JESSE MICHELS: It is speculation, but the idea that we have people in deep space, or we have literal alien, Men in Black-style aliens walking among us, and then we put navy suits on them, commander suits on them, and they were like, “You’re a non-terrestrial officer” or whatever — that makes less sense. Both of those make less sense.

GARY MCKINNON: Just don’t look at his huge almond-shaped eyes.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He’ll crawl out of his skin suit occasionally. But it’s like we’re stuck between those two options — aliens in military garb, or literally humans that we’ve sent into super deep space or whatever.

GARY MCKINNON: I’ve never believed in any of the stories of any contact with governments. I think it’s just outlandish.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, I think a lot of that stuff is pretty ridiculous. It feels like disinformation material that is meant to send people down the wrong trail or something. At least it doesn’t feel like there’s a ton of good evidence. I do think there are a lot of weird abduction cases where people experience things. Have you ever had anything like that?

GARY MCKINNON: I had one very strange experience that I can’t explain to this day. It was back in 2006. My girlfriend and I were in what we call a bedsit in the UK — a tiny flat on the first floor, not the ground floor. We’d gone to bed, we’d gone to sleep, and I was suddenly woken up by a really sharp pain in my left heel. It felt like 2 or 3am. I was in deep sleep, it had been a few hours. I thought, “What the hell’s that?” I kind of leaned forward to check it out, like something had bitten me. Then immediately I just went back to sleep.

In the morning I woke up and, weirdly, I don’t know why, I’d gone to bed with my socks on, or at least one sock on. I remembered what had happened during the night and I pulled the sock off, and in my left heel there were two perfectly circular holes, both about 5 millimeters in diameter. One still had a flap of skin hanging off it — like a hole punch used for paper, but about this far apart.

I thought, “What the hell?” On the first floor. I was trying to think of every possible rational explanation. Was it a rat with perfectly symmetrical 5-millimeter teeth that could come to my bed and bite me? I’m on the first floor, not the ground floor, where rodents could be. No explanation whatsoever. I can’t say much more than that. But I did later, as I got more into electronics and electromagnetics, do scans and stuff.

JESSE MICHELS: And they didn’t come up with anything?

GARY MCKINNON: Couldn’t find anything wrong. But a few years later I found out — because this is something I’m always researching and looking for an answer to, because I still haven’t got one — there’s a company, I don’t know if it was VeriSign, there’s some chipping, like electronic chipping company, and their process was exactly like that.

JESSE MICHELS: No way.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. A double injection. And then years later I’ve got two bumps that formed where those holes were, and then moved around. And I still have those bumps on my heel today.

JESSE MICHELS: Do you think a human did that? Do you think an alien did it?

GARY MCKINNON: I’m thinking some kind of government tracking.

JESSE MICHELS: Government tracking.

GARY MCKINNON: I feel ridiculous saying it.

JESSE MICHELS: Well, do you feel ridiculous saying it? Because you had a 20-year — you know.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: Prime ministers were negotiating with American presidents on your behalf because the American government had it out for you. So I think for a normal person being like, “You know, if they wanted to chip me or whatever,” that might be a little paranoid. But in your case, I’m not so sure, man.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. But even so, I wasn’t running away. I was on bail. Everything was safe. I was contained, as they would put it. But yeah, I just can’t explain that. It’s just weird as hell.

JESSE MICHELS: Interesting. And do you still have that in your foot?

GARY MCKINNON: Still have the bumps.

JESSE MICHELS: Can I see them?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. I hope no one’s got any foot fetishes, or the opposite.

JESSE MICHELS: Maybe you can start an OnlyFans after this.

GARY MCKINNON: All right. Striptease time. I bet you’ve not done this before.

JESSE MICHELS: This is wild.

GARY MCKINNON: Are we ready?

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah. So this company, Veritas—

GARY MCKINNON: No, I think it was VeriSign or something.

JESSE MICHELS: VeriSign.

GARY MCKINNON: It definitely began with a V, but I can’t remember.

JESSE MICHELS: And they do these little chip implants.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. So when I woke up with the holes, they were kind of round here in the corner, but now they’ve moved slightly. So one’s there — it’s a lesser one.

JESSE MICHELS: Whoa.

GARY MCKINNON: And the other one’s there.

JESSE MICHELS: The other one’s big. Yeah. That’s very easy to spot.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. And that’s the other one. I think that’s shrunk over time, actually.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, it feels smaller.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

VeriChip: The Microchipping Company Behind the Technology

JESSE MICHELS: Whoa. Weird. The company Gary is talking about here isn’t called VeriSign. It’s called VeriChip. And yes, it’s done work in human microchipping. In fact, the company has produced a tiny RFID microchip about the size of a grain of rice that implants under the skin, transmits a unique ID when scanned, and links to a database with personal or medical information. This chip is essentially a permanent tracking and identification tool.

The chip was introduced to the market in 2002, just a few years before Gary’s experience in 2005. And according to Gary, the company’s double injection method would cause something that looks exactly like the two bumps on his foot. I’ll let you decide if that’s a coincidence or not.

If you look a little deeper, VeriChip’s corporate lineage runs through Applied Digital Solutions, and prospectus filings show that the implantable microchips themselves were ultimately sourced from a subsidiary of Raytheon — one of the largest defense contractors in the world, deeply embedded in military systems, missile guidance, radar, and classified electronics.

By the end of the 2000s, VeriChip themselves had secured the rights to technology that would allow the chips to detect viruses from inside the body, including strains like H1N1. The proposal described an implant that could determine whether a virus was present, what kind it was, and how serious the threat might be. At that point, the device would no longer just be identifying a person — it would be monitoring their unique physiology and biomedical data.

Completely dystopian, to say the least. And even more dystopian, knowing that this tracking technology was likely used in retaliation on an ordinary citizen like Gary McKinnon. So if that were surgically removed, what do you think you would find?

GARY MCKINNON: I don’t know. Maybe two lumps of unanalyzable material. I don’t know. I didn’t have such good equipment back then, but now I have really good stuff for electromagnetic analysis, radio frequency analysis, and I’d rather do that first before having it removed.

JESSE MICHELS: You should do all that. Yeah, should do it like tomorrow.

GARY MCKINNON: Okay, I’ll ask my local doctor.

The Space Supply Chain and Non-Terrestrial Officers

JESSE MICHELS: I’m just saying, you don’t want the names to go missing, like the non-terrestrial officers. You want to get it done now, you know? Figure it out.

So we’re in between your implant experience and this possible space supply chain for anti-gravity materials, and I don’t know where to go — my head’s exploding. But is there anything, just going back to the materials thing and the fleet-to-fleet transfer? It’s just so fascinating. And it’s fascinating that you’re into Townsend Brown too. It’s like you have this hermetic connection to this whole subject, like you were meant to see that or something.

Anything else as far as takeaways from that document? Because James Fox came out with the program and did this great piece on you. But I think a lot of people take what you found and run with it as far as their interpretations of it when they see people discuss it. So this is your interpretation — that it’s some sort of supply chain in space?

GARY MCKINNON: Well, we stumbled on that together.

JESSE MICHELS: Together, I guess so, yeah.

GARY MCKINNON: I hadn’t really connected it in that way, that it was a supply chain. It just came to my mind while we were speaking. And in light of what we both know now, it does make sense in terms of potential propulsion and the materials that might be necessary for that as a dielectric or so. It’s pretty amazing.

JESSE MICHELS: No, it makes total sense. There was a company called Made in Space that tried to do this for a while. There’s now a probably more promising company called Varda Space which does this — it’s like factories in space. At the end of the day, you can think of the value proposition as: we can do special chemistry because we can essentially turn off gravity for the manufacturing process.

And often commercial companies are doing things that have already been done in classified settings. So the stuff that was done in classified settings might have been this. Right now I think we have, as far as what’s known, like six people in space — six astronauts on the ISS and on various space stations. The Chinese space station has an astronaut or two. So the idea that — how many officers were on this list?

GARY MCKINNON: At least 40 or so.

JESSE MICHELS: 40 or so. So maybe they’re in space, or maybe they were also in orbit, or maybe they were just managing this non-terrestrial kind of atomic layer deposition process, or materials manufacturing or something.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, I’ve always thought there weren’t aliens. I thought this is bound to be — because it says “non-terrestrial,” obviously it’s not extraterrestrial. So in other words, they’re on a fleet that isn’t based on Earth.

The Secret Space Program: From Manned Orbiting Laboratory to Ben Rich

JESSE MICHELS: When we talk about a speculative secret space program, we should establish something clearly. There really was an uncontested, very real, and now declassified secret space program.

The US Air Force ran its own classified manned space effort alongside NASA’s more public-facing ones. In the 1960s, while the world watched Saturn V rockets rise under the banner of Apollo, the Air Force was developing the Manned Orbiting Laboratory — a military space station designed for reconnaissance of America’s enemies and other orbital operations. 17 military astronauts were selected. A modified Gemini capsule was built. Titan III rockets were assigned. Launches into polar orbit were planned from Vandenberg.

And then in June of 1969, exactly one month before the Apollo mission reached the moon for the first time, the Manned Orbiting Laboratory was canceled. Advances in automated spy satellites made human observers redundant. Vietnam was draining resources. The Apollo program was imminent. So the classified space program was folded.

But in defense culture, cancellation does not necessarily mean disappearance. Programs are restructured, personnel are reassigned, infrastructure is absorbed into deeper compartments. So what happened to the military astronaut program? Where did the classified orbital expertise go? And what was really going on with the classified space program?

In 1993, former Lockheed Skunk Works director Ben Rich was speaking at a UCLA alumni event. Rich had overseen programs like the U-2, the SR-71, and the F-117 stealth aircraft — aircraft that had lived in total secrecy before becoming public knowledge. At the end of his presentation, according to multiple attendees, Rich’s final slide showed a black disc-shaped craft flying into space. He closed with the famous words: “We now have the technology to take ET home.”

Was he just messing with the audience? Rich would end up dying just two years later. But towards the end of his life, he would privately say things that sounded very similar to this UCLA speech — things about prodigious American space capabilities the public could barely dream of.

The Secret Space Program and Townsend Brown’s Legacy

GARY MCKINNON: Just before Ben Rich passed away, when I was talking to him, he told me at the end of a 45 minute conversation he said, “Jim, we have things out in the desert.” And he wasn’t referring to Area 51. “We have things out in the desert that is 50 years beyond what you can comprehend.” I can comprehend a hell of a lot. And he said, “If you’ve seen movies like Star Trek or Star Wars, we’ve been there, done that or decided

JESSE MICHELS: it wasn’t worth the effort.”

Ben Rich’s son Michael Rich was the president and CEO of RAND Corporation for decades. RAND was the Santa Monica based federally funded research and development center evaluating the prospects of Project Orion, nuclear pulse propulsion craft that could theoretically carry very large crews, reach Mars or outer planets and enable long duration missions. Not coincidentally, RAND has also conducted comprehensive research on the non-engineering side of deep space travel, crew psychology and isolation, life support, logistics, radiation hazards, resupply challenges, cost and national priorities.

RAND Corporation also happened to be intensely interested in the gravity manipulating deep space propulsion work of Townsend Brown. His work going dark after he showed them a demo in 1967.

President Ronald Reagan may have also inadvertently left a hint around secret American space capabilities. In his diary entry from June 11th, 1985: “Lunch was with five top space scientists. It was fascinating. Space truly is the last frontier and some of the developments there in astronomy, etc. are like science fiction. Except they are real. I learned that our shuttle capacity is such we could orbit 300 people.”

You read that right. Not one shuttle crew, not a single mission. 300 people in Earth’s orbit. In space. If you ask your favorite AI conversation agent, it’ll tell you that we only have 10 or so people in space today, but we somehow had the capacity for 300 in the 80s.

In 2020, Haim Eshed, former head of Israel’s Defense Ministry’s Space Directorate, essentially the father of the Israeli space program, publicly claimed that American astronauts and alien representatives were operating on underground bases on Mars.

These bizarre hints have stacked up over the decades, and maybe they are mirrored in one of the most famous fictional versions of a secret Space Force — Stargate. With visible cooperation from the U.S. Air Force, the production of the show Stargate leaned on real world military structures and culture. In fact, two sitting Air Force chiefs of staff, Michael E. Ryan and John P. Jumper, appeared on the show as themselves. These guys literally ran the Air Force and were showing up for cameos on this show.

The lead actor on the show, Richard Dean Anderson, was later made an honorary Brigadier General in recognition of what the Air Force described as the program’s positive portrayal of the service. The show’s central premise: a classified off-world program run by the Air Force from a hidden command facility. Of course, the military connection might have just been due to some fans among the Air Force staff. Or maybe it was just another tiny hint towards something really big going on in secret.

Strange stories of a parallel space program are apocryphal, but they are more abundant than you might think. Like this stunning revelation shared with Ross Coulthart on Chris Ramsey’s Area 52. There was a conversation I had with

GARY MCKINNON: someone who I trust who got very emotional and described a friend of his dying on the moon. Wow. And I—

JESSE MICHELS: What do you make of that?

GARY MCKINNON: I didn’t know what to make of it.

Classified Programs and the Case for a Secret Space Infrastructure

JESSE MICHELS: It’s important to remember that the public didn’t even know the NRO, or National Reconnaissance Office, existed for decades. The parallel classified Air Force astronaut program wasn’t fully declassified until 2015. So is it so crazy to think we might have experimented with covert human spaceflight and exotic material supply chains since then?

The benefits of building material in space cannot be understated. Matter in space, because of its lower gravity environment, behaves in ways that are basically impossible on Earth without gravity. There’s no convection, no settling, no buoyancy tearing materials apart as they form. Liquids stay perfectly mixed, crystals grow with extraordinary purity. Optical fibers can be drawn with almost no internal flaws, potentially outperforming anything made on the ground. So it’s also not that crazy to assume that we’ve experimented with this technology for extremely high value metamaterials used at the highest levels of aerospace.

Now, where would such a program be headquartered? NASA’s Johnson Space Center in Houston is not only where McKinnon found UFO related images and spreadsheets, it’s the NASA complex that specifically focuses on human spaceflight. The notorious line “Houston, we have a problem” refers to mission control at Johnson Space Center in Houston. So if you were operating a manned spaceflight operation involving a material supply chain, that’s exactly where you’d put it.

I should be clear too. Both of us aren’t trying to fully pour cold water on UFO crashes. Like, I think—

GARY MCKINNON: No, not at all.

JESSE MICHELS: I think Roswell happened. I think that Virginia happened in 1996. So it’s always — yes. And in the UFO world, it’s always like all the — but I think intentional conflations are also systematically done by the intelligence world. And it’s important to be able to parse through all these things.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. And of course, it’s human nature to super-associate stuff with something you want to be true. So we can all fall down that hole as well.

JESSE MICHELS: Well, yeah, no, of course. I’m officially shocked. This is crazy. I mean, the Navy does do the most exotic materials stuff as well. Like there’s this place, Naval Surface Warfare Crane, that does this. Battelle Memorial Institute does a lot of exotic material stuff as well. And so yeah, I really do wonder if some of this is human made, and that then if you say it’s of alien provenance, then it’s this perfect, you know, kind of black box where people can interpret it however they want.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. It’s a great shield, isn’t it? Good umbrella.

JESSE MICHELS: It is. And what’s wild is that you’re now experimenting with materials. You literally have materials in mind that produce the Bifield Brown effect. You’re interested in these anti-gravity experiments that involve some of these chemicals and materials that you saw.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: Which is wild.

Gary’s Experiments with the Bifield Brown Effect

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. Since 2007, this is the first I read about Bifield Brown.

JESSE MICHELS: How’d you come across it?

GARY MCKINNON: I don’t remember precisely, but it was—

JESSE MICHELS: Because that’s early.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. It was undoubtedly researching UFO stuff.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah.

GARY MCKINNON: Anti-gravity stuff specifically would have brought me to that. But yeah, what attracted me was the fact that you can do this in your home, garage or shed or whatever. You don’t have to be a scientist to understand the mechanism, which no one as yet does. But you don’t have to be a scientist to do it on the bench and try some experiments, because all a capacitor is, is two conductive plates with an insulator sandwiched in between them — a dielectric that stores electric charge. So what’s complicated about that?

And if you read all the so-called research into the BB effect, none of it’s exhaustive. None of it. It’s all, “Oh, I did 5 kilovolts at DC, I did 10 kilovolts at AC.” Obviously Townsend Brown went very far. There are a few people that went far — Army Research Laboratory — but no one’s done a huge battery of tests with a multitude of dielectrics, a multitude of different plates, the mass of the plates, not just the material. Is it AC, is it DC? Do you use a sine wave, do you use a ramp wave or a triangle wave or a sawtooth wave? How long’s your pulse? What’s your delay?

There are quite a few parameters compared to a lot of stuff. But for a home experimenter it’s doable within a few hundred hours, I think. And I’ve probably done about 60 hours all told. I’ve done thousands of hours of reading, but probably 60 hours of experimentation.

JESSE MICHELS: Wow. Wild. So you’ve done 60 hours of running the actual experiment?

GARY MCKINNON: Oh no, no, no. Like research into materials. Trying — yeah, I did try. I mean, I started off with lifters. Yeah, try and get balsa wood and baker foil. And that was interesting. Yeah, but it’s balsa wood and baker foil. And there used to be a website called Blaze Labs and there were some really well-informed guys there, ex-aerospace, that knew all the aerodynamic mass and stuff. And they said, just like Army Research Laboratory, there’s no way that this battered metal foil sheet, which isn’t even perfectly smooth like an airplane wing, there’s no way that aerodynamically that can be pushed just by ion flow. Just the way ARL said it was like at least 10 to 20% above what could be achieved by ion flow.

Townsend Brown and the Electrogravitics Rabbit Hole

JESSE MICHELS: Which is exactly what Brown said. And so for the audience, Townsend Brown is this mid-century, very mysterious inventor who started with the Navy, then joined Martin Vega — which was, you know, pre-Lockheed Martin merger — the year that Skunk Works formed, and then kind of popped up in all sorts of three-letter agency contexts and was shoulder to shoulder with elite American military brass, people like Curtis LeMay. He was just this very mysterious figure who consistently claimed that he would get these positive results in these anti-gravity experiments, or what he called electrogravitics.

There’s even a video of him popping champagne from the Bahnsen Lab at the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, which we know is the CIA outpost studying anti-gravity and literally convening all of the best theoretical physicists on the question of gravity in 1957. And it was all sponsored by Wright Airfield, which is where all the UFO rumors come from. They were literally paying for a lot of this research. Weird connections.

And so if you take what he claimed about his own experiments at face value, you’d have this crazy update against SpaceX and chemical combustion. It would be this total paradigm-shifting thing. It’s not a small deal. It’s a really big deal.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: And the thing about Brown is we know for a fact that he was one of the number one radar guys in the Navy. There’s an FBI file from 1942 or 1943 that basically says he knows more about radar than anybody in the Navy, maybe. That’s number one.

Number two, electrohydrodynamics — which is not electrogravitics — it’s the manipulation of airflow with electric fields, which is how those tin foil, balsa wood DIY lifters work and fly. But it’s also what made it into the B2 stealth bomber. And I’m pretty sure I have the receipts on that too. So you have these two things where he’s like the best at electrohydrodynamics and radar. And then he’s claiming that he could also merge electromagnetism and gravity, which is the holy grail of physics. And so it’s like, okay, so he’s right on two out of the three things, but he’s a total quack on the third thing? And there’s so much smoke around it.

And then now you have the lead electrostatic scientist at NASA — who is the global authority on being able to tell you that this experiment is only attributable to conventional electrostatics — and he’s saying that no, this works. It works in a vacuum. So you can’t do it with ionized air. Physics in its current form cannot explain this. And his own experiments, Charles Buhler, who you mentioned, are derivative of Townsend Brown’s work.

And so I think there is so much smoke. There’s a Japanese experiment that you mentioned, the Musha paper — I got his name wrong — they say that they get a successful result. In that case, I think they submerge the whole thing in transmission oil.

GARY MCKINNON: Yep.

JESSE MICHELS: Which also — you can’t ionize transmission oil. That’s not going to work. So yeah. Are they coordinating with these people in the US? Are they like some deep state thing in Japan? I don’t think so. It’s like this global thing.

GARY MCKINNON: So—

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah. This is wild. When we were setting this up and I was talking to you on the phone, you were like, “Yeah, I’m super into Townsend Brown.” I was like, what? This is going to be the best interview ever.

GARY MCKINNON: Well, yeah, I really enjoyed your — I call it your Bifield Brown Special. I don’t know if that’s what you call it.

Townsend Brown, Electrogravitics, and DIY Experiments

JESSE MICHELS: I’ll take it. Yeah. Let’s call it the Bfield Brown special. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you. Well, kudos to you for being into Townsend Brown in 2007, because The Man Who Mastered Gravity by Paul Schatzkin was this great biography that only came out around the pandemic. And he had this other version of it that wasn’t really edited super neatly or concisely. I think that might have come out in like 2009 or something. And he kind of stepped away from the project. But 2007, like you’re talking about Townsend Brown being on the dark corners of the web. Like you’ve got to, you know, get the—

GARY MCKINNON: I used to live it, it sounds.

JESSE MICHELS: Sounds like. Yeah, man.

GARY MCKINNON: And wasn’t it Paul Le who first introduced the idea of the B2 using that?

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah. So here’s where I think Paul Laviolette got it wrong, because he wrote this great history of antigravity and he talks about microwave beam propulsion alongside Townsend Brown’s Biefeld-Brown effect. And he’s a really brilliant guy. He had his own theory called sub-quantum kinetics.

GARY MCKINNON: Oh yeah. His whole — cool. Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: Which was fascinating. And he seems like just a brilliant, brilliant — I would have loved to have interviewed him. He died a few years ago, sadly.

GARY MCKINNON: He’s dead?

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah. It sucks. Yeah.

GARY MCKINNON: No way. I was an email contact with him. I thought up until two years ago, but obviously got that wrong. And we were going to have a — I was going to start a podcast. And he was going to be my first interview.

JESSE MICHELS: Oh, dude, that would have been the best thing.

GARY MCKINNON: He had hip problems. He was undergoing hip surgery or something. So he —

JESSE MICHELS: Man.

GARY MCKINNON: Okay.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, yeah. No, it’s a real bummer. But I think where he — and it’s an amazing book and everybody should read it — but I do think he says that the B2 had like an anti-gravity drive. And I don’t think that’s correct. I think —

GARY MCKINNON: I thought he just said the leading edge — it was like a capacitor, but the leading edge was one plate and the trailing edge was another plate. And —

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, and I think he’s right about that. But I think that just manipulates the airflow. Like that just makes the airflow — yeah, it’s like reducing the, you know, lift-to-drag ratio.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, it wasn’t a full drag or increase —

JESSE MICHELS: Increase the lift-to-drag ratio. Sorry.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, so it made it slightly faster.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, it makes it more aerodynamic and faster. I mean, maybe there’s some real electrogravitic thing happening, but there’d be no way to fully say because it’s happening not in a vacuum. So maybe there is something actually happening there that is top secret. But I also don’t know why they would necessarily declassify the B2 if it was using electrogravitics per se.

I will say there is a guy named William Gunston who is the preeminent aerospace journalist in the UK, or was, and is part of like the Royal Air Society and has all these awards and stuff. And for — I think it was like Air International magazine — he did like a history of aero engine tech since World War II. And then he gets to Townsend Brown and he goes, with Townsend Brown, “I will refrain from talking about leading edges charged to millions of volts positive followed by trailing edges charged to millions of volts negative, because I don’t want to end up in the Tower of London.” And then he caveats it a little bit more. So I don’t know if that caveating is genuine unsuredness of —

GARY MCKINNON: What he’s saying — the Tower of London, which for the audience was a place of torture.

JESSE MICHELS: Was a place of torture.

GARY MCKINNON: Does he mean professionally, or like as a whole, like giving away a secret, or —

JESSE MICHELS: If he’s literally saying these are state secrets.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: And then I don’t know if the caveats are like, I really don’t want to be implicated for having said this, so I’m going to sprinkle in some doubt or whatever. I don’t know. But it’s interesting.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

Planning the Experiment: Building a Levitation Device

JESSE MICHELS: So you want to pull off one of these experiments, or —

GARY MCKINNON: Oh hell yeah. I’m planning it by April at the latest. I’ve been distracted for a while and had to do other things. I’m only doing these experiments in a 10 by 10 foot shed and they’re not expensive, but they consume a lot of time.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah.

GARY MCKINNON: And I have — I’m basically doing industrial processes in a garden shed. So it’s a bit — I’ve got — but the first thing I bought, because you have to heat this stuff to a thousand degrees — the calcium copper titanate to a thousand degrees — and then I had to buy a 10-ton hydraulic press. I bought a gas furnace, and then because of the geometry and stuff, that wasn’t ideal. So then I bought an electric furnace which is much smaller and easy to manipulate this tiny disc.

JESSE MICHELS: So cool.

GARY MCKINNON: It’s only 40 millimeters across. And starting off very small. So I’ve got to make that into what they call a green body, make that solid. I bought really high quality silver paste as the plates. But then after that you have to think — when you’ve got these two plates at 30 kilovolts or more, you get arcing currents, you get sparks basically. So I have to find a way to stop that. And my first thought was to have a very small disc on top of the 40 millimeter diameter calcium copper titanate — CCTO. But there are other ways to do it as well. So I’ve got to figure out a path, and then completely — because I really want to see it float. I want to stand there in my shed, turn the on switch on, and see this thing rise.

JESSE MICHELS: That would be amazing. If you made something levitate, the haters would have nothing to say.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: What do you say? You say it’s ionized?

GARY MCKINNON: It’s not real — these days it could be —

JESSE MICHELS: AI. Yeah, sure. That’s a good point. Would you do this in a vacuum chamber?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, eventually. I do have one vacuum chamber — that’s for my resin and it only goes down to like -99 MPa or something. But Gravitech has done it in a vacuum chamber. They used to contract for NASA.

JESSE MICHELS: Who’s Gravitech?

GARY MCKINNON: Gravitech is under a different name now, but they’ve got — I can send you the videos. What’s his name? Not Henry — Henry something. I’ve had a few emails with him as well. Yeah, they’ve done it in a vacuum, a proper vacuum, like, you know, minus hundreds of torr.

JESSE MICHELS: Shout out to Gravitech — I want to check them out. I’ve never heard of that.

GARY MCKINNON: He’s got a different company now, but I’ve got his email. I’ll send you.

JESSE MICHELS: Oh, please.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, get him on, man. He’d be glad to.

JESSE MICHELS: I’d love to.

GARY MCKINNON: And he now does stuff for satellites, I think, like private satellites.

JESSE MICHELS: Whoa.

GARY MCKINNON: Not using this, actually — I don’t even know enough to comment. But yeah, he’s done it in a vacuum.

JESSE MICHELS: Interesting.

GARY MCKINNON: And it is less —

JESSE MICHELS: Why wouldn’t he pursue it more substantively after that? Sounds like he just went straight to satellite.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. I think he wants to be commercial, make money, do well for himself. And probably — maybe that’s as far as he wants it to go. But it works in a vacuum. But also you have like Jean-Louis Naudin, the French kind of YouTube scientist — I want to call him that, I don’t know his credentials for real. He’s done it in vacuum tubes. He’s isolated the electrode vacuum tubes. But I don’t know what the pressure was. So this is —

The Global DIY Antigravity Community

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, so you’re right. There is this whole global community of DIY independent creators, aerospace professionals who in their private life just want to pursue this — or UFO nuts or whatever — outside of whatever they’re doing. And most of them say that there’s a there, there. There are very few people that say there isn’t a there, there. The ones that do — I believe there’s an Air Force guy, his last name is Tally, and he consistently uses very low voltage and tries to explain it away. And I even spoke to this one Navy scientist and he was like, “Tally’s just a bad actor. He’s brought on the scene.” Like he’s this guy in UFO world named Sean Kirkpatrick, who’s the former AARO director, who’s brought on to dismiss. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So —

GARY MCKINNON: Well, you know Tim Ventura or Propulsion?

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, I do. Yeah. He’s a good guy.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, yeah. He had that guy on that did similar effects with very low voltage, like 5kV, 5 kilovolts.

JESSE MICHELS: I think it was Buehler.

GARY MCKINNON: No.

JESSE MICHELS: Or because Buehler thinks it’s the electric — yeah. So this is the NASA electrostatic —

GARY MCKINNON: Because there was a previous Buehler in my old documentation for like pre-2000s.

JESSE MICHELS: Whoa.

GARY MCKINNON: Unless that was his dad. Or maybe — because he maybe was — was he like mid-50s now? Maybe it was him.

JESSE MICHELS: In your old documentation?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, yeah, I’ve got documents with a Buehler and I didn’t think it was him, but maybe it is. Well, we’ll have to — we didn’t do that doc swap. We said we’d do a doc swap.

JESSE MICHELS: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I’d love to. Do you have a lot of compiled information about this sort of stuff? Oh, sweet. Cool.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: Interesting zip file.

Thane Heins and Reversing Lenz’s Law

GARY MCKINNON: And in terms of free energy, there’s one thing I found — not I found, but I found the guy that discovered it. So Lenz’s law stops the motor rotating because of the counter electromagnetic force. If you look at the formula for that, the strong element of that is the inductance of the coil. And this guy found — his name is Thane Heins — if you increase the inductance of the coil, then the rise time of the opposing magnetic field that slows the turning of the motor down when you’re applying power to a load is delayed, just like delaying timing in a car engine.

And he found that not only could he delay it enough to stop the CEMF — counter electromotive force — dragging and creating electromagnetic drag when it’s past a certain point phase angle, it actually assisted the rotation. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

So your standard electric generator is a disc with magnets and underneath a coil. And he found that when — so the magnet is spinning around, it gets to what they call TDC, top dead center, above the coil. With his method, because it delays that opposing — because when the magnet, let’s say it’s a north pole facing down and it cuts into the coil, that creates a south pole in the coil that opposes the incoming movement of the magnet. And then when the magnet’s moving out of the coil, it creates a north pole which accelerates it out.

And he found that when you do this stupidly simple but incredibly effective time delay, the CEMF rises in such a way that it’s late on the incoming, so the magnet gets pulled in, and it’s early on the outgoing, so the magnet gets pushed out. So it accelerates the incoming and the outgoing. And he took it to such an extent that eventually there’s no opposition at all, and you could actually reverse — you’re not reversing Lenz’s law because that’s an inaccurate physics statement, but you’re reversing —

JESSE MICHELS: The effect, in effect.

The Arrest and Its Aftermath

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. And I did a small experiment. I’ll send you the video. I did the most simple magnetic experiment I can. I had a cylinder shaped magnet which is diametrically magnetized so it’s not north on top, south on the bottom. Each curved half is a north and south poles. I had that in a vertical shaft, rotating. And I show it with a normal generator coil, which when you attach it to a load, the power input needed increases to support the load and the rotation slows down.

Well, when I put his coil on, which has higher inductance, when you tell that coil to power a load, the rotation speed increases and the input current goes down. The complete opposite of motor theory, motor generator theory. Whoa. That’s the one and only thing I’ve seen I’ve been able to replicate that works in terms of free energy. And this guy is now, he’s got contracts with Siemens, Philips with him. He’s talking to China. It’s about to blow up.

JESSE MICHELS: Whoa.

GARY MCKINNON: And I’ve been following him since about 2007 too. On overunity.com, the first forum I saw him on.

JESSE MICHELS: What’s his name?

GARY MCKINNON: Thane Hines.

JESSE MICHELS: Where is he based?

GARY MCKINNON: He’s a Canadian physicist.

JESSE MICHELS: Dude, you are deep down the rabbit hole of alternative propulsion and energy.

GARY MCKINNON: You’ve got to interview this guy.

JESSE MICHELS: I would love to.

GARY MCKINNON: He’s like your general kind of crazy mad genius. He’s not so good at social interaction.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah.

GARY MCKINNON: But he’s got it, man.

JESSE MICHELS: It’s typical of somebody who makes real breakthroughs like that.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: For them to be not always…

GARY MCKINNON: I think he’s got a lot in his mind.

JESSE MICHELS: Well, yeah, it’s fascinating. What do you think this chip in your foot does? Does it ever burn or buzz or…

GARY MCKINNON: No. Sometimes… No.

JESSE MICHELS: So there’s nothing. Basically, you’ve gotten no incremental information on it outside of just a couple of lumps that have moved over time towards the inside of the arch of the foot.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: Strange. Have you ever had any sort of Men in Black experience, or experience with strange men in suits showing up at your place?

GARY MCKINNON: No. But my lawyer had her office and her car robbed.

JESSE MICHELS: Really?

GARY MCKINNON: Which is obviously not Men in Black, more earthly powers. No, nothing Men in Black.

Getting Caught

JESSE MICHELS: Okay, so when you hacked in to all of these sensitive American military sites, how did you get caught and what happened next?

GARY MCKINNON: Oh man. Yeah, I got lazy, got egotistical and thought, “Oh, I can go anywhere I like and look at anything.” And I started making direct connections instead of jumping through various IP addresses. So I was making direct connections to the target and I was using free AOL signup CDs. So I wasn’t being at all like a professional hacker. I was just… Yeah, I thought I could just do it. I thought, “Oh, these guys don’t even know, don’t even have passwords. They wouldn’t even know I’ve been here.”

But yeah, eventually, obviously, when that guy right-clicked the LAN icon and disconnected me, that was NASA. And they reported to BT, British Telecom, which was my Internet service provider at the time, and said, “Who’s this IP at this time?” And they said I was… In fact, they didn’t have my name at first. I don’t know if my Internet account was in my girlfriend’s name or if we were using her aunt’s Internet or something.

But the horrible thing was when they came with the National High Tech Crime Unit, they came to arrest me. The warrant was for the whole house and they came early in the morning, arrested me, my girlfriend’s aunt’s daughter who was only 11, like 12 or something at the time. So it’s quite a horrible experience. Extended family and all my fault.

JESSE MICHELS: And why did they arrest the 12-year-old?

GARY MCKINNON: Well, just to question.

JESSE MICHELS: Sure. Not arrest, detained, not to jail.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s still…

JESSE MICHELS: It must have been traumatic.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, because they didn’t know who the person was. They knew someone at that address.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

GARY MCKINNON: And unfortunately, yeah, my ex-girlfriend’s cousin, he was quite anti-authoritarian and quite alternative. I think they thought it was him. “Oh, it must be him. He’s got purple hair. He must be the guy.” So yeah, I’m laughing now, but it’s horrible because it affected so many other people. My stupid curiosity.

JESSE MICHELS: James mentioned something about guys looking over you at your bed at night or something.

GARY MCKINNON: Oh no, that’s probably when I was arrested because I was arrested in my sleep.

JESSE MICHELS: Wait, so you were arrested in your sleep?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, the National High Tech Crime Unit. I’d been up all night playing Galactic Civilizations 4 or something. Big space game. And probably smoking still as well. And gone to bed late. So I was asleep at 8 in the morning. My girlfriend was getting ready to go to work. Knock, knock, knock. She’s in a dressing gown. They’re patting her down and pushing her into a room. Then they come into my room, I’m in bed and I’ve got this guy: “Gary McKinnon. I’m Jeff Donson from the National High Tech Crime Unit. You’re under arrest for Computer Misuse Act.” So it’s… Yeah.

The Extradition Battle

JESSE MICHELS: And then from that point onwards, the UK was like, okay, with more of a slap on the wrist sort of thing. And then it was the US that was like, “No, we need to extradite him now.” And then what you mentioned, they changed the extradition laws to make it this sort of blanket thing that applied to you?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, definitely. So when I was first arrested, the National High Tech Crime Unit, who were the arresting body, said to me, “You’ll do six months inside, maybe community service, maybe low jail time.” Because under UK law, all I did was unauthorized access. I didn’t break anything or steal anything or make money or anything like that.

But then these officers went to America to ONI — and I must say, Office of Naval Intelligence, because there’s another ONI, there’s an intelligence system, an investigation or something, but I don’t know. Yeah, and when they came back, they had a very heavy tone, a completely different tone about them. They were very impressed by meeting with the top brass in Washington. And yeah, they said, “Oh, this guy caused $5,000 of damage on every PC he was on,” which is just stupid.

JESSE MICHELS: How do you damage the hardware if you just do this software hack that we’re calling a hack, but you’re using off-the-shelf stuff?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, it’s like PC Anywhere. But I think what they call damage is the time it took them to take the machines offline. The machines are unusable for a while. Investigate them. So as you know…

JESSE MICHELS: You know what feels like white hat hacking to me? Because you didn’t actually end up using any of the files in a way to hurt the US or their… Again, you can say what you will about Snowden or Sandra or any of these guys, there’s nothing you did to knock the US down a leg as far as their tactical ability to do things. So it’s almost like a white hat hack, because the costs they incurred to take the stuff down and reset them, they would have needed to do anyways. That would have been what if a malicious person had penetrated all these servers.

GARY MCKINNON: State actor.

JESSE MICHELS: That’s what I’m saying.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: So they’re actually extremely lucky that it was $5,000.

GARY MCKINNON: Where are you buying your PCs from?

JESSE MICHELS: No, they should — I mean, you literally, white hat hackers get paid. So I think they should pay you.

GARY MCKINNON: All right, I’m just… Please send the email.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, I’m serious. It’s like you literally didn’t do anything showing mal intent. Once you got the info, they got the info back and then they reset, ideally, their computer networking and architecture in a way that these sort of phishing attacks couldn’t be done. These are basic things that you’re using.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: So I just think it’s insecure. It almost sounds like somebody in middling bureaucracy trying to cover their ass. Like, “This took us all this…” Well, you should have done it before. What are you doing? You’re not doing your job.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: If it was some super sophisticated quantum error correction that you had figured out in 2000, that would be one thing. That would be like, okay. And then you used it in this sort of detrimental way to American national security.

GARY MCKINNON: Cryptid NSA.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah. But otherwise, I mean, I don’t know, man. That feels kind of crazy. Okay, so then what happens to the extradition laws?

GARY MCKINNON: Oh man. So yeah, the original extradition law, which I think was 1989, was a good basic law. “We accuse this British citizen of having committed a crime in or against America. We have this evidence and it’s a crime over here and it’s a crime over there. So we should have him in America to stand trial.” Totally fair, totally reasonable.

But then, I mean, this is the weird thing in law. Computer crime is a weird thing. It’s a gray area because it’s not physical. Where’s your bum at the seat when you commit the crime? There’s lots of questions that are legally intransigent. How do you place this?

So what happened was I was arrested in March 2002, and then I was re-questioned by the NHTCU, who went to visit the DOJ in August, then they came back. Then they re-interviewed me in November 2002 and that’s when their tone had changed. Very serious. “You’re accused of harming military systems. Delir could be used in prison.” And that’s when things really got serious for me. I thought, “My God, this is just blown out of all proportion.”

But we were protected by the extradition law because there had to be evidence of mal intent. And when I did my police interview, I completely admitted to what I’d done because it was all on the hard drive. I said, “Yeah, it’s all on the hard drive. I went there and I got this document, went to another place, got other documents.” So I was open about it, thinking, “Oh, six months. Like they told me, I’ll be fine.” And they said community service. I can do both. I’ll be fine. Although I wouldn’t have lied. Six months in prison.

But when it came to November and then they threatened extradition, on paper it was 70 years in jail. 70 years. It was like 10 — seven counts, 10 years per count. And I just went crazy. I thought, “This is absolutely mad. What are we going to do?”

And there was a lot of the UFO community in America who wanted me to stand trial in America. It’s like a martyr, right? “Yes, it’ll be great. He’ll come over, they’ll open all the secrets and he’ll make it after.” But what America actually said — the DOJ said — was that I’d be tried under Military Order Number One, which is Guantanamo status. Totally secret. No media interview, no media coverage, no family visits. Me in an orange suit with my red hair. Joking. Sorry. But yes, it went really scary. Like, really scary. Like over the top. Kafkaesque.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah.

GARY MCKINNON: As many people said. Damn.

JESSE MICHELS: And you must have felt horrible. You must have felt like the world’s out to get you, or the most powerful nation in the world is out to get you.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: And that must be a scary feeling.

Contemplating the Worst

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. Well, it started in late 2002. By 2008, because we lost so many court cases and hearings, I’d given up all hope. And I thought, “There’s no way I’m going to give my f*ing life to a foreign journalist jail.” And I bought potassium chloride, one of the three chemicals in the lethal injection. And I thought, if I get that decision, I’m just going to not inject it. I looked up the amount, how many grams per kilogram of body weight, and I was just going to swallow it and have a heart attack and die.

Theresa May’s Decision & The Aftermath

VIDEO CLIP BEGINS:

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Since I came into office, the sole issue on which I have been required to make a decision is whether Mr. McKinnon’s extradition to the United States would breach his human rights. After careful consideration of all of the relevant material, I have concluded that Mr. McKinnon’s extradition would give rise to such a high risk of him ending his life that a decision to extradite would be incompatible with Mr. McKinnon’s human rights. I have therefore withdrawn the extradition order against Mr. McKinnon.

VIDEO CLIP ENDS:

GARY MCKINNON: That was incredible. Theresa May. Yeah, it’s heavy.

JESSE MICHELS: That’s heavy, man. That’s really intense. And I’m sorry it got to that place, because that’s. It’s ridiculous. If you look at the fact pattern, it’s just insane.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: And again, I’m saying that some of these other whistleblower cases, there are nuances to them. I’m saying yours, I think it’s an absolute witch hunt. That’s crazy.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, I agree.

JESSE MICHELS: It’s just crazy. Yeah. I don’t even know what to say. I’m so sorry. I mean, that’s just awful. I’m sorry on behalf of my country.

GARY MCKINNON: Well, you’re not the government, Jesse, so. That’s true. I don’t have to forgive you.

JESSE MICHELS: Okay, well, yeah, it’s just not a good representation, but.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, well, America is a great country. The people are great. It’s just there’s been some very bad governance since World War II, in my humble opinion. And on this side of the pond as well, the British as well.

JESSE MICHELS: Sure. Yeah. No, and it’s crazy that you were. I mean, Gordon Brown, David Cameron, Theresa May, all these UK prime ministers were thinking about you. You were this really important case because of the extradition. You said that the extradition law was changed literally right after you did what you did.

The Extradition Treaty & Being Made a Poster Boy

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. This is one thing I didn’t mention there. We saw a draft of the new extradition treaty through our lawyers, and it was written. A British extradition treaty with America was written in American English, which is kind of a clue as to who’s calling the shots. American spelling in an English legal document. And also a lot of the phrases were almost verbatim taken from some of my charges.

So I think. It’s not that there’s anything special about me, but it was what I did. And at that time, the American DOD citizens were getting like 250,000 hacking attacks at the time, if you read the General Accounting Office documents at the time, and still to this day. So I think they needed to do something and they needed to increase the punishment, and they needed a poster boy. So timing is everything, isn’t it?

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, yeah. Because there had been big hackers before you. Right? Like what’s the name of the guy who hacked into the DOE, Department of Energy, and like atomic labs?

GARY MCKINNON: Matthew Bevin.

JESSE MICHELS: Matthew Bevin, yeah. And so this was like an actual hack on really sensitive stuff by kind of a more professional hacker. Is that safe to say? Or also kind of like a vigilante?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, no, I think he was more skilled than I was. He didn’t just do blank password hacks. He found weaknesses in protocols. So he was more advanced. And yeah, he was earlier. He was in the 90s.

JESSE MICHELS: And then what happened to him?

GARY MCKINNON: He was basically a slap on the wrist. He did go through some shit, don’t get me wrong, Matthew, if you’re listening. But yeah, he didn’t face a long term.

JESSE MICHELS: There are a few of these cases before you where I think in a certain case it was like a hundred thousand computers ended up with malware.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, well, if you want to know who’s the most successful hacker, it’s not a person, it’s a virus. Like the Love. What’s it? I can’t remember the name, but—

JESSE MICHELS: I’m talking about specifically, there’s precedent for UK based hackers hacking into US systems, which—

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: Neither of us are suggesting anyone do. It’s not, don’t hack into national security stuff. This is a lesson. But in those cases, they did worse stuff than you.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: And they just got slaps on the wrist. And then you’re this UFO interested. You want to know if there’s like free energy or whatever, for your own edification.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: Not because you want to do some terrorist thing or undermine American supremacy in any way or whatever. And they just come after you.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: And so they change the—

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah. What’s important to them? Is it someone cleverly stealing money in a cyber fraud way, which a lot of people have done, or is it UFO truth?

UFO Truth as a Trigger Point

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, well, it might show that it actually hit a trigger point. The idea, the cigar shaped Tic Tac object flying in deep space, that might be this really sensitive thing that they just really don’t want to talk about. And the non-terrestrial space supply chain thing, I could see that they don’t want to talk about that either.

GARY MCKINNON: But as a counterpoint to that, that information was already out. Donna Hare was out. So if it’s already out, why go so heavy on this guy?

JESSE MICHELS: As a counterpoint to that, there’s proof that you got into these sites. Donna Hare, it’s always going to be this kind of single sample size, N of one story told, and you can always be like, “That person was crazy.” But when your case, they have a. You know, there’s a live arrest warrant out on you now. Right? You can’t go to the US now.

GARY MCKINNON: I’m on the Interpol red list.

JESSE MICHELS: You’re on the Interpol red list. That’s crazy. I don’t even think I knew that. But yeah, in your case there’s no arguing with the fact that you got into these sensitive sites. So the fact that you’re saying you saw a Tic Tac in deep space but above earth, and then you saw these non-terrestrial, maybe 40 some odd officers, that’s pretty deep.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: But to the point that you shouldn’t be blamed. It’s like you didn’t sign something. You didn’t sign up, you weren’t working at one of these places. You were hacking in and your. I’m trying to think how your girlfriend’s aunt managed that.

GARY MCKINNON: If I was intel, I was like, “How do you manage this guy?” And then I think they were probably quite happy when I got diagnosed with Asperger’s in 2008, 2009.

JESSE MICHELS: Okay.

GARY MCKINNON: “He’s mentally ill. He’s fine then.”

JESSE MICHELS: Right, right, right.

GARY MCKINNON: I would put him in the mentally ill drawer.

The Chip & Strange Occurrences

JESSE MICHELS: Do you ever think the chip is somehow either monitoring you, or feeding you ideas or anything? You start glitching right now.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: Do you ever think it has some sort of. I don’t know.

GARY MCKINNON: My mind feels the same as it always has.

JESSE MICHELS: Okay.

GARY MCKINNON: But I do want to do some further scanning with more modern equipment.

JESSE MICHELS: You should.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: So interesting.

GARY MCKINNON: I wish. What was his name? The guy that used to scan implants. He’s dead now.

JESSE MICHELS: Roger Leir.

GARY MCKINNON: Roger Leir. Yeah. I wish he was around and could come to the UK.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah. He’d be the perfect guy.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: I might know of somebody else who can help you out.

GARY MCKINNON: So later.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah, exactly.

GARY MCKINNON: Explain what’s going on quickly.

JESSE MICHELS: I can’t turn my phone off. Here, look. Yeah, let’s document all of this. You can see my finger is on the power button and both. This is like a hard reset. My finger’s on the power button and volume up and volume down at the same time and nothing. Nothing, nothing.

GARY MCKINNON: That’s never happened before.

JESSE MICHELS: Absolutely. It’s never happened before. It’s insane. But you’re with Gary McKinnon. I’m with Gary McKinnon, who has a live arrest—

GARY MCKINNON: Famously said, “I didn’t do it.”

Closing Thoughts & Farewell

JESSE MICHELS: This was everything I’d hoped it would be, this conversation. It was so fun. And I really hope you pull off this Biefeld-Brown effect. I think it would be this beautiful kind of vindication. I’m not saying what you did was fine, but I think you were completely persecuted in this horrible way. And I love the fact that, by the way, the UK rallied behind you and you ended up singing with David Gilmour, the lead guitarist of Pink Floyd, and you have all these people. You’re like kind of this people’s champion.

GARY MCKINNON: Crosby, Stills and Nash, man. One of my favorite hippie bands when I was young.

JESSE MICHELS: Wait, what? What did Crosby, Stills and Nash do? They were rallying behind you as well?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, they did. They just mentioned me in one song at one of their gigs, but thousands of people heard it.

JESSE MICHELS: I didn’t know that.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah.

JESSE MICHELS: So cool.

GARY MCKINNON: You’ve seen all these bands. When I was little, I was like, God, it was crazy because you’re really depressed, but you’re seeing all your musical heroes vouching for you.

JESSE MICHELS: But you also. Didn’t you sing with David Gilmour?

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, and Chrissie Hynde and Bob Geldof. But I didn’t actually. I only sang in the same studio at the same time with Chrissie Hynde. I didn’t get to meet David Gilmour or Bob Geldof actually.

JESSE MICHELS: Okay. Well, wild. Thank you, Theresa May, for making the right decision and letting him go. And I think the US should drop their arrest warrant.

GARY MCKINNON: I think so too, so that I could go on holiday.

JESSE MICHELS: Yeah. So you can go and go on a nice vacation. Hopefully next time I see you, it’s in the States.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, that’d be fantastic.

JESSE MICHELS: It’d be great.

GARY MCKINNON: Thanks for a great interview, man.

JESSE MICHELS: Absolutely, Gary. No, it was an honor. It was a lot of fun. And hopefully I think we made a little bit of progress here too, in terms of piecing some things together.

GARY MCKINNON: Yeah, definitely. Legitimately. Supply chain.

JESSE MICHELS: Exactly. Sweet.

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