Read the full transcript of former British diplomat Alastair Crooke in conversation with Judge Napolitano of Judging Freedom podcast on “Is the Trump Mystique Broken?”, July 28, 2025.
INTRODUCTION
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom, back from a 10-day vacation. Today is Monday, July 28, 2025. Who better to start with first thing on a Monday morning after a vacation than Alastair Crooke? And the topic is: Is the Trump mystique broken?
Alastair Crooke, welcome here, my dear friend. A pleasure to chat with you. A pleasure to see you as always. Before we get to President Trump’s woes and the international implications of the Epstein scandal, I want to ask you a little bit about Netanyahu’s woes as we speak in the middle of the summer 2025. How broken is Israeli society?
The Complete Breakdown of Israeli Society
ALASTAIR CROOKE: Completely broken. I mean, I’m not trying to say something that is exaggerated, but if you look recently, we just put out a report drawn from the Hebrew and Israeli press. What they’re saying basically is that this is not a place that they want to be in any longer. This is not a moral society, not a democratic society.
They describe in lurid terms what’s happening in Gaza to be a replay of the Holocaust. I mean, they are saying this – this is what is written in the Hebrew and the Israeli press where they are saying very much that, “What are we doing in Gaza? We’re going to try… We call it a humanitarian zone. It’s a ghetto. And we all know what happened after the ghetto, what happened with the gas chambers. And they said, is this where we’re heading? This is unacceptable.”
So Netanyahu is in deep trouble. There are divisions. Israel is overextended in all these conflicts he got involved with. It is now at war in Syria against Turkey. And so it’s a very complicated situation. At the same time, there are deep, deep problems about the legal situation, about the way ahead.
Reservists aren’t turning up to duty. There is talk from senior generals and IDF that they may just stop, they may go on strike against this government – the military going on strike against the Netanyahu government because they don’t believe in its objectives any longer and they foresee a disaster for Israel.
# The March Agreement Reversal
And one’s only got to look around and see what’s happened. The policies that followed on from March, which was when Witkoff changed the terms of the agreement that was made in January. Witkoff and Trump changed it at the end of January. The agreement was that Hamas would release all the hostages, all the hostages, and it would lead to an end to the war, withdrawal and the end to the war, a final end to the war in Gaza.
Well, in March, Witkoff and Trump backed off that, backed away from it, and they said, “No, we accept Netanyahu’s view that it will lead only to a small amount of releases, will lead to a temporary ceasefire.” And at the end of the ceasefire, the war in Gaza will return.
Well, not surprisingly, Hamas said, “No, thank you. We prefer to go back to the original agreement. We’re not going to go to this new agreement where there’s a temporary ceasefire, where you go on with this.”
So what happened in March when Trump and Witkoff withdrew from that? There was escalation in Gaza. The IDF escalated in Gaza, and at the same time, Netanyahu cut off the food and water and supplies, medical supplies too. And only under huge international pressure has he been forced to back down.
This is the nature of the sort of divisions inside. Most Israelis are horrified at this, that Israel is starving children and women like this. It’s going to be a real mess. It’s coming apart. It’s taken a little time, but it is coming apart.
Israeli Public Recognition of Nazi-Like Policies
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Not too long ago, you and our colleagues on the program indicated that as horrific as Prime Minister Netanyahu’s genocidal policies were towards the Palestinians, they enjoyed the broad support of Israelis. Are you now telling us that in your view, from your scanning of the Israeli press, that the Israeli public is recognizing that the establishment of ghettos, the erection of concentration camps, the concept of collective punishment without due process, are in fact hallmarks of a Nazi regime and are willing to say that publicly?
ALASTAIR CROOKE: They are. I mean, senior people. There is still support for Ben-Gvir and Smotrich and the settler groups. And the settler groups were cheering and being excited because of the withdrawal of food and water and medicine from Gaza. So there is still support for it.
At the moment he’s passed through the Knesset, is going into summer recess. And so he may be able to continue on, but the state as having any meaning, as having a sense of direction of where it is going is really broken.
The True Nature of the Abraham Accords
And to illustrate that, I would just say we hear Witkoff talk about the Abraham Accords and that we’re going to extend them and increase. What are the Abraham Accords now? Well, we see that clearly in Syria and in Lebanon and in Iraq. This is not a peaceful agreement to normalize relations with Israel as it was presented. This is a forced subjugation to the terms offered by Israel. That’s what’s happening in Syria.
Sherar is being told this is what Israel is going to accept and you have to put up with it or else. This is what they are saying in Lebanon. And what has Trump and Netanyahu done in order to enforce this? They reasserted ISIS 2.0.
ISIS 2.0 is what you are seeing freely ranging in Syria, executing Christians, Alawites and others that do not succumb to their narrow Wahhabi view of the Islamic religion. And this is, of course, sensitizing Iran, it’s sensitizing Iraq, which fought a war against ISIS.
And now ISIS is back on the scene. And this is part of the system.
# Balkanization of the Middle East
What are the Abraham Accords now? It’s going to be ethnic divisions, sectarian divisions. It is Balkanization of the Middle East enforced by military power from Israel. That’s what we’re talking about. The Abraham Accords is not some nice, peaceful sort of process of normalization with Israel. It is not at all.
And what’s it all about? Well, this is the bigger story. Of course, it’s about Iran. When you introduce ISIS, it’s about Iran because ISIS has longstanding desire to eradicate, annihilate the Shiite and to assert its control. And that’s what it’s about in Iraq and in Lebanon.
So when Syria, if it accepts the demands of Israel, then parts of the Al-Sharah forces will see them in Lebanon. This is the ultimatum that has been given to Lebanon: you have to physically disarm nearly half the population who are Shiite, and you have to make them submissive to Israel.
Same in Iraq is going on. They are demanding the disarmament of the Hashad, of the PMU. All have to be disarmed and neutralized. These are the terms of normalization that is being set out.
# The Broader Strategy Against Russia
Then the same thing is happening, of course, with Iran, and this is why it’s happening against Iran. Why are we seeing Azerbaijan heated up, Armenia heated up, why are we seeing Turkey involved in trying to open corridors across Iran to isolate Iran, to weaken Russia? Of course, because Iran is one of the poles of Russia’s power, together with China.
And this is what’s going on. As the failure becomes more evident in Ukraine, the US and European deep states, particularly the British one, I’m sad to say, are very active in trying to extend Russia, make pressure points all around Russia’s periphery, whether it is from Central Asia, whether it’s from Azerbaijan, whether it’s in Iran or from other parts, from the sea routes, from the Baltic Sea.
All of this is part of the move. As the war in Ukraine fails and NATO fails there, the pressure is building. So that’s what’s happening. The Abraham Accords are not Abrahamic accords or normalization. They are the military subjection of the Middle East to Israeli hegemony. And behind that, US hegemony.
The Epstein Affair and Iran Bombing Option
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Let’s segue into the Epstein affair. I want to ask you about the potential international geopolitical implications of Epstein, and I’ll get right to the bottom line here. Is bombing Iran again a Trump option to divert from the dastardly press he’s getting on Epstein?
ALASTAIR CROOKE: Yes, it is. It’s a real risk, a serious risk. Let me explain very quickly. I’m not going into the Epstein affair because everyone knows about it, but it is clear that Trump is tainted. He is tainted, even if he was not directly involved. He was a close friend of Epstein for years. He was part of that milieu of oligarchs, of intelligence officers, of political players. And he swam in that water. So did Epstein, so did intelligence services, so did the very rich oligarchs as well.
But he was part, and this has caused great misgivings within his base. They thought he was one of them, not one of these people. And now that it’s turned out that it’s also involved something that cuts to the quick of their morality: pedophilia.
# The Moral Revulsion
I’m not suggesting anyone particular was directly involved other than Epstein, but this pedophilia, this general pedophilia, assaulting, torturing children is just unacceptable. Even if the milieu was doing other things about political interests, financial interests, intelligence interests, the sense that it also at some levels involved children is just abhorrent.
And so there is a sense of moving away. And I’m not sure that he can control that or divert from it because this is different. We know that our elites lie and they steal, but doing these things to those elites… And by the way, it’s in Europe. I’m not suggesting this is an American affair – very much in Europe and also in Israel. And I’m not saying this is an American affair, but it’s really gripping.
# Trump’s Lame Duck Status
So the question is, and this is where the geopolitics comes in: Is Trump entering as a sort of second-term president, is he beginning to enter into lame duck status in America? Is he starting to become a lame duck with all that that carries as people start to say, “Well, who’s going to inherit MAGA, who’s going to inherit the Republican Party?”
And I think constitutionally, Trump will find it very hard to see himself as a lame duck. He will need diversion, he will need wins. He will desperately try and get them. He’s just tried to get one during his golfing holiday by steamrolling the European Union. But the more important one, of course, is Russia.
And in his weakened state, the hawks are pushing him harder, pushing him harder. But there is a great problem here. There is no inventory, no weapon availability, no missile availability.
# The Military Reality
Until you move up, as David Ignatius suggested in the Washington Post, the only real things you can do to put pressure on Moscow at the moment is to go to Tomahawk missiles, 2000-kilometer range. Serious missiles fired either from submarines, and there is a land version of it too, but mostly from submarines. These were used against Iran, against the nuclear process.
But in that case you’re going to… I mean, so a big war. So there is a void. If you have got nothing to offer, what, eight or nine Patriot missiles or something trivial, then there is a big gap because there’s nothing online, there’s nothing can be bought, there’s nothing that can be conveyed to Ukraine, bar major missiles that can strike St. Petersburg and Moscow, but that takes you into deep, deep territory.
# Iran as the Alternative Target
So what’s the alternative? Well, the only alternative which he just has mentioned in recent days is he said, “Well, you know, if things go on in Iran, you know, maybe we’ll have to bomb Iran again.”
And on cue, Mr. Grossi, the secretary general of the IAEA, he said, “Oh, well, you know, there are new sites we are discovering that need to be inspected. There are new things we are not really happy with, things that are going on.” Even as Mr. Trump says it’s all obliterated, there’s nothing existing.
Well, the ground is being prepared. And in Israel, the ground is being prepared, exaggerating what happened on June 13 when Israel attacked and declared that it completely destroyed the air defense capabilities of Iran. They damaged it, but they did not destroy it because they wouldn’t venture into Iranian airspace during that time. All that was done was from outside.
Israeli Reaction to Epstein-Mossad Claims
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: On the last show that we did before my break, Max Blumenthal gave all the reasons he believes, gave on air, all the reasons he believes that Jeffrey Epstein was a Mossad asset. The Israelis, apparently the Netanyahu regime and even some of his political adversaries went bonkers over this.
Naftali Bennett, the former Prime Minister of Israel and not a friend of Prime Minister Netanyahu, denounced and threatened Max. Why do you think they reacted like that?
ALASTAIR CROOKE: Because they’re frightened. I mean, this is the underlying theme, you know, America first, not Israel first. And quite clearly, we see in all, whether it is in the tariffs or whether it is in the military situation around Israel, that Trump is taking the Israeli line, the Israeli position, the Israeli interests first, and therefore putting the United States into a series of conflicts with Iran in Syria, against ISIS in Lebanon is coming probably in Iraq.
And what might happen, even it could extend to Egypt as Israel continues the rampage. So they are very frightened. And we see that young people in America, young people, I mean, the favorability rating Trump amongst the young up to 35 is falling dramatically.
And one of the reasons is that they do think that somehow policy is Israel first and Israeli led. And that’s not what they stood for. And they didn’t want wars in, more wars in the Middle East. They didn’t want forever wars.
And so there is a deep sense there of potential that they’d been betrayed, that Trump wasn’t what he purported to be, that he purported to want peace and that he wanted to put America first. That’s what he said. That’s what he promised. And there is a great doubt now that that is what he is delivering.
Indeed, I mean, as I’ve just described to you about what’s happening in Syria and Lebanon, this is not sort of peaceful normalization on the standards that we were told. This is coerced, and this is going on everywhere. And of course, Iran is being coerced and Russia is being coerced, but Russia, they’re frightened of.
Congressional Battle Over Epstein Files
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Well, here’s a clip from the speaker of the House of Representatives who’s really caught in the bind on this because all Democrats and a significant number of Republicans want to subpoena the Epstein file. This is one of the rare things that a single House can do. They don’t need the consent of the Senate. And it appears there is a majority.
In order to avoid that vote, he adjourned the House for the entire month of August, which got under a lot of people’s skin. So the first of these clips we’re going to run is Congress Speaker Johnson criticizing another Republican, Thomas Massie, who’s leading the charge to open up and release the files. And then Congressman Massie’s response. Both of these are from Meet the Press yesterday.
VIDEO CLIP BEGINS:
MIKE JOHNSON: Thomas Massie is suggesting that this is some sort of watershed moment. We are all on the same page trying to advance the truth, full truth and transparency. And the idea that he’s suddenly so concerned about it is curious to me. He waited until President Trump was elected to bring this.
INTERVIEWER: Hypocritical.
MIKE JOHNSON: Seems that way to me.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Well, Congressman Massie, let me turn to you. What say you? Are you being hypocritical by demanding this now and not sooner?
THOMAS MASSIE: The release of the Epstein files is emblematic of what Trump ran for and why he got the populist vote. There seems to be a class of people beyond the law, beyond the judicial system that operates outside of all of that. And we all thought that when Trump was elected, he would be the bull in the china shop and that he would break that up. And we’re bring transparency.
Frankly, it wasn’t until just recently that I realized that people who were allegedly working on this weren’t sincere in their efforts. And also, politics is the art of the doable. There’s enough public pressure right now that we can get 218 votes and force this to a vote on the floor.
Somebody should ask Speaker Mike Johnson, why did he recess Congress early so that he didn’t have to deal with the Epstein issue. He can bring this to the floor at any point. Yet he’s chosen to send us home early for August recess.
VIDEO CLIP ENDS:
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: I guess the Epstein affair is going to reverberate even to even into international politics, even even into Tel Aviv.
Congressional Powers and Political Implications
ALASTAIR CROOKE: Indeed it is, because I think what is being threatened there basically is, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, because you know more about it, is that the Congress can, on its initiative, seek their positions, maybe even from Ghislaine Maxwell, maybe even from Steve Bannon, who has 15 hours of tapes, tape recordings of Epstein.
I don’t know. These are all things that may merge, but it’s like a sort of river. It’s taking one area, it’s flowing this way and then it flows back and it’s flowing in another direction. One can’t tell.
But this is why I’m saying, you know, it may end up that Mr. Trump becomes more of a lame duck and then the danger is that he will need to try and divert us. And the best thing to divert people at this time has always been historically is to try and start a war.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Alastair Crooke, thank you very much, my dear friend. Thanks for allowing me to go across the board on the subject matters which we addressed. It’s good to be back with you. Much appreciate it. Look forward to seeing you again soon.
ALASTAIR CROOKE: Thank you very much. Thank you.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Of course. And coming up later today, it’s back to our old routine. On Monday at 10 o’clock this morning, Ray McGovern at 11:30 this morning, Larry Johnson at 2:30 this afternoon, Scott Ritter, Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom.
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