Read the full transcript of Dr. Phil’s conversation with President-Elect Trump’s incoming “border czar,” Tom Homan on The Dr. Phil Podcast Ep. 277 (December 10, 2024).
Listen to the audio version here:
TRANSCRIPT:
DR. PHIL: Tom Holman is a straight shooter, a no-nonsense guy who’s dedicated his life to law enforcement. Let’s give a warm welcome to the New Border Czar, Tom Holman. Well sir, thank you for being here.
TOM HOMAN: Thanks for having me.
TOM HOMAN: What am I, chopped liver?
DR. PHIL: I think you’ve got some fans in the house here. Why is this so important to you?
TOM HOMAN: Because of the tragedies I’ve seen in my career. I mean, I started as a border patrol agent in 1984, so I wore the uniform. I became an ICE agent, first ICE director. I actually came up through the ranks, right? President Trump put me in that position, who I think is the greatest president of my lifetime, by the way.
And the tragedies I’ve seen, you know, I’ve talked to young girls as young as nine that were raped multiple times by members of the cartel. And you get on your knees and talk to a little girl that had everything innocent and pure ripped from her. She’ll never be the same. It moves you.
I stood in the back of a tractor trailer with 19 dead aliens at my feet, including a five-year-old little boy. They were all in their underwear because they were baking to death. They died in a bat steel box. And I said in my testimony that one congressman said I didn’t care about dying children unless they were white.
I stood there beside that five-year-old boy and put my hands on him and said a prayer for him because I knew what his last hour of his life was like. No one deserves to die that way, especially children. I’ve held many dying people. I’ve held many dead people and talked to a lot of women and children that were sexually assaulted.
And it all could be prevented if we secure the border. Secure the border saves lives. So I wake up every day pissed off with what this administration did to the most secure border in my lifetime. But thankfully we’ve got President Trump coming back and we’re going to secure the border once again and save lives.
DR. PHIL: And Tom, this is doable. This can be secured again.
TOM HOMAN: Yes. We had the most secure border in my lifetime. Again, I started in 1984. I worked for six presidents. President Trump was a game changer. I mean, we had the most secure border ever.
Illegal immigration at a 45-year low. Illegal immigration was down 83 to 90 percent depending on what time frame you looked at, right? So we can do it again and we have to do it. People say President Trump’s policies are inhumane, they’re racist, and it’s just nothing further from the truth. There’s studies done. 31 percent of women that make that journey through the cartels admitted to be sexually assaulted. So we know that number is probably higher, right? Much.
When President Trump had illegal immigration at a 45-year low, when 90 percent less people were coming, how many women were being sexually assaulted? How many children didn’t drown in that river? How many pounds of fentanyl didn’t get into the country to kill Americans? How many women and children weren’t sex trafficked?
Under Joe Biden, sex trafficking is up 600 percent. Fentanyl has killed over a quarter million Americans. Record number of people on terrorist watches coming across the border. In the Trump administration, we had 13. They got over 300. Just that alone. So President Trump’s policies saved lives by the thousands. Most humane policy I’ve ever seen. Securing the border saves lives, period.
Comparing Trump vs Biden Administrations
DR. PHIL: We’re going to look at those numbers and compare what’s happened between the two administrations, and we’ll do that right after the break.
DR. PHIL: You have nothing against people that enter this country legally.
TOM HOMAN: Absolutely not. This country is built on immigrants. I’m not anti-immigrant. I’m anti-illegal immigration because I understand the whole ugly underbelly of what that means.
DR. PHIL: Because, as you pointed out, those that come in are being victimized before they ever get here by the cartels and by those that do the trafficking and get them here.
And even after they get here, they owe debts to people that got them here. So, he crossed illegally a few years ago and paid $7,000. And then the two guys inside the vehicle also don’t have paperwork. I asked him, “What happens if you don’t pay the cartels?” He says, “They’ll hold you until you pay or they’ll go after your family until you pay.” And they’re working that off once they’re here and their families are held hostage and are accountable for those debts back in their home countries.
DR. PHIL: Absolutely. Trafficking is up over 600%. Over half a million children have entered this country through the use of cartels, separated from their families. And this administration, who didn’t properly vet the sponsors they released them to, they can’t find them with 300,000 of them. And that’s something President Trump’s committed to doing, finding these children and saving them. Let’s take a look at Trump versus Biden administration.
The Trump administration, 2017 to 2020, encounters 2,088,618. Encounters the Biden administration, 10,825,387. And then 2 million gotaways. So that’s a huge difference in the number of people penetrating the border.
And then repatriations, 1.6 under the Trump administration, and then 4.4 under the Biden administration, which is reflective of the number of people coming across. Trump administration, 2,000 pounds of fentanyl seizure. And Biden administration, 14,000 pounds. That’s enough to kill every American walking, because it doesn’t take much.
So that tells you how much is coming across, because DEA tells me they assume they’re seizing about, what, 10%?
TOM HOMAN: No more than 10%.
It’s not a coincidence in four years of an unsecured border, we have historic overdose deaths from fentanyl. It’s coming across between the port of entries.
But the border patrols are overwhelmed. And that’s what people need to understand. They want to talk about innocent, illegal immigration. They’re coming for a better life. I get that. But you need to understand, when you overwhelm the system, like they’ve done the last four years, most of the border patrols no longer patrol. They’re making sandwiches, changing diapers, they’re making hospital runs, they’re dealing with a humanitarian crisis. So when you pull 70% of agents all through national security duty, that’s when they move the fentanyl in to kill Americans. That’s when they move the sex trafficking, the 600% increase in sex trafficking. That’s when the bad people come.
And, look, 2 million people paid more to get away. Why did 2 million people pay more to get away? Because they could have paid less, get to the border, cartel job’s done, turn yourself into green uniform, get processed, get released within 24 hours, get a free airline ticket to the city of your choice, get a free hotel room, get three meals a day, get free medical care, and in 90, 120 days, get work authorization, which was the very reason you came here. Why did 2 million people pay more to get away? Because they didn’t want to be vetted, they didn’t want to be fingerprinted. That’s just scared the hell out of everybody.
DR. PHIL: It scares the hell out of me. How many of those came from a country of sponsored terror? I want to be sure everybody understands what you’re saying. There’s poor to enter here, poor to enter here. They come through in between, and if they go to a green uniform, that’s where they get their free pass, they get all the goodies, they get into the country, and they may get a court date in seven, eight years. But they’re here for all that time. Now, if they go to a brown uniform, they get turned around and sent back home. Right?
TOM HOMAN: Oh, yeah. Under this administration, that stuff won’t happen after January 20th. That’s a free pass, and they don’t do that. They got something serious to hide, is your point. They paid more to get away, and that scares the hell out of me. Because I don’t know how many terrorists crossed this border, and Joe Biden, but someday we’re going to find out it’s going to be a bad day for America. Even the FBI director agrees with me that the southwest border is the biggest national security vulnerability this nation has seen.
DR. PHIL: Well, let’s take a look at that, because we see here that 300-plus were stopped with names matching known suspected terrorists on the watch list, 183,055 with criminal charges pending, criminal convictions, 10,000 Americans arrested by ICE, and 178,508 with criminal charges pending and convictions that were removed by ICE.
So if that’s how many are being stopped and caught, you’ve got to wonder how many got away. And that’s who’s in the country. Where are these people now? We have no idea.
TOM HOMAN: As far as the people that got away, there’s no footprint on these people, right? They weren’t fingerprinted. They weren’t vetted. So these are people we’re going to have a hard time finding, but we’ll find them.
Democrat Responses to Trump’s Plans
DR. PHIL: When we come back, we’re going to hear from some Democrats who are not taking kindly to Trump’s plans for mass deportation. After the break.
DR. PHIL: That was some of the reactions from Democrats across the country. Democratic leaders and immigration advocacy groups are planning a major showdown against President-elect Donald Trump’s proposed mass deportation plan, shaping up to be one heck of a battle that Trump’s new borders are. What happens January 21st? Where do you start?
TOM HOMAN: Well, there’s three rails we’ll start the first day. Number one, we’re going to secure the border. Number two, we’re going to run the deportation operation. And number three, we’re going to look for these 300,000 kids. We’ll find them too. President Trump’s been clear, we’re going to prioritize public safety threats and national security threats first, because they pose the most danger to this nation.
Securing the Border on Day One
DR. PHIL: So day one, we’re going to be looking for these public safety threats, arresting them, detaining them, and deporting them. And if these sanctuary city mayors don’t want to help, they get the hell out of the way, because we’re coming, we’re doing it. You say that the left media has it backwards. Brandon, you as the bad guy. How are you the bad guy?
TOM HOMAN: You know, I grew up in a family full of cops. My grandfather was a cop, my dad was a cop, and we’re in a situation now where the left thinks those who enforce laws are the bad guys, those who broke the law are the victims. Well, we’re going to change that after January 20th.
DR. PHIL: So we have known criminals here. Did countries such as Venezuela take people out of prison and send them up here, and in fact refuse to take them back?
TOM HOMAN: Yes. And Venezuela to this day, they’re pushing back on taking return of those criminals. So President Trump already realizes he has to give a mandate to Venezuela, saying you will take these people back, or you’ll face consequences.
Gang Problems and Enforcement
DR. PHIL: We’re talking about some gangs here. This is from Aurora. I’ve had the Aurora people here. You’ve been in this building. You’ve been to this building. You’ve talked to this resident. The mayor had a statement that contradicted itself within the statement. It said there wasn’t a problem here. We arrested six people there. Well, which was it? Was there a gang problem in this building?
TOM HOMAN: Absolutely, there was a gang problem in that building. In that entire neighborhood, there was a gang problem. I was there. For the communities there, great risk. But now they’ve got a problem on January 20th because my gang’s bigger than their gang.
So these guys are probably watching Dr. Phil’s Merit TV. They’re going to know that on the 20th, the 21st, there’s a whole new set of rules.
DR. PHIL: Are they likely to scatter, or are they likely to make a fight of this? What do you expect?
TOM HOMAN: I expect some to scatter. I expect some are going to be a problem. I hope to God I’m wrong. There’s going to be some violence. I mean, these are heavily armed people, and I’ll pray every day for the men and women of ICE to do a good job, go home safe to their families every day. But we’re not walking away from the danger. We can’t. We’ve got to make this country safe again. I’m sick and tired of young girls being raped and killed by people who aren’t supposed to be here. President Trump is committed to removing these public safety threats. I’m committed to removing them. So regardless of where they go, they can run and hide, but we’re going to find them, and they’re going to be deported.
Mass Deportations and Detentions
DR. PHIL: When you say these people that aren’t supposed to be here, we’re talking about mass deportations, right?
TOM HOMAN: Look, the law clearly says, when you come to our board and enter illegally, if you don’t have proper documentation, enter the country, you shall be detained. Shall. Not maybe, not let’s think about it, let’s not create a CBP1 app and bring them in through the back door. You shall be detained. That’s the difference between President Trump and Joe Biden. President Trump took that serious. This administration didn’t.
So that’s what we’re going to do January 20th. You will come here. Hopefully you’ll have the Remain in Mexico program back in very fast, but if not, you’ll be detained, and we’ll find the beds to detain you in, but you’re not going to be released into the public, and we’re certainly not going to release people who can’t vet properly. That’s why there’s so many criminals across the board.
The secretary can say all day long, well, they’re all vetted before they’re released. We don’t have criminal data from El Salvador. We don’t have criminal data from Venezuela. So you say you vet them, you vet them through NCIC, so if they’ve ever been arrested here, yeah, we’ll know about it, but if they haven’t been arrested here before and there’s no footprint here, we don’t know who these people are. That’s why they need to be detained.
DR. PHIL: If they came across illegally, if they’re not an asylee, what level of crime is that?
TOM HOMAN: That’s a misdemeanor.
DR. PHIL: And can you deport them at that point?
TOM HOMAN: Absolutely.
DR. PHIL: And what’s the process? If you arrest them on Tuesday morning, and you decide, okay, we’re deporting these people, they’re here illegally, what’s the process of deporting them?
TOM HOMAN: Depends what country they’re from. If they’re from Mexico, we can do an expedited removal and put them back within hours. When I was a border patrol agent, you could process an alien from Mexico and return them within 45 minutes. For everything, right?
But if you’re from a foreign nation, other than Mexico, do we have to detain them while we work on travel documents? Let’s take Venezuela, for example. You got to get Venezuela to agree to take them. They have to send you travel documents. They have to accept that, yeah, this person’s a national of our country, a citizen of our country. Then we got to make flight arrangements. So everybody we arrest, the vast majority you have to detain a few days while we work out these details.
El Salvador. El Salvador issues a travel document for their citizens. We have to pay for those travel documents, believe it or not, under this administration. So we got to look at those things, too. These countries need to adhere to the rules that have been established over decades that you need to take your citizens back.
Nonpartisan Approach to Border Security
DR. PHIL: You don’t look at this as a political thing. I’ve served under six presidents, starting with Ronald Reagan. Right. We took a look at Obama versus Trump, and under the Obama administration, there were 5.3 million deportations. From 2009 to 2012, 3.2 million. 2013 to 2016, 2.1 million. And under the Trump administration, 2 million. So you’ve deported, on your watch, 5.3 million people. That was under a Democratic administration.
TOM HOMAN: Actually, President Obama gave me a presidential rank award for that.
DR. PHIL: Right. So how is this a politically driven thing? I don’t understand.
TOM HOMAN: It is. I don’t care about politics. I don’t care what people think about me. Never have. I’m going to do the job. It should be a nonpartisan issue.
Let’s forget about immigration for a minute. When you cause a crisis as big as the Biden administration has done, now we’re talking about a quarter million Americans dead from fentanyl, 600% increase in sex trafficking. A record number of aliens have died crossing this border. A historic number. Almost 4,000 have died crossing this border under the Biden administration. We’re talking about no respect to terrorist threats coming at record numbers.
This isn’t just about illegal immigration. When you cause a crisis this big, it causes all these bad things to happen. So when you talk about terrorism or a quarter million dead Americans, this should be a nonpartisan issue. I would think Republicans, Democrats, and Independents would all agree on this. But the left still doesn’t get it. And I find that troubling.
I’ve seen so many tragedies in my lifetime. Some of these still keep me up at night. While you and I are talking right now, women are being raped by criminal cartels on the border. While we’re talking right now. A child will die tonight. And I’m done with it. I’m sick of it. Secure borders saves lives. And I can’t wait to January 20th when President Trump is back in power and we secure the border.
DR. PHIL: When we come back, Tom says despite the death threats he’s getting, he’s planning to do his job as the borders are. And that means he’s actually going to go there. We’ll be right back.
Sanctuary Cities and Resistance to Deportations
DR. PHIL: Well, that was Los Angeles city leaders talking about the city ordinance to stop Trump’s plan for mass deportation. What do you say to these city leaders that say, A, they won’t help. B, they will resist your efforts.
TOM HOMAN: First of all, I find it amazing that any elected mayor or governor would push back. The president’s been very clear. We’re going to concentrate, obligate on public safety threats. What mayor or governor does not want public safety threats taken out of their communities?
So again, help us or get out of the way. And I’ve been clear. These politicians need to read Title VIII United States Code 1324, Section 3. It says, if you knowingly conceal or harbor an illegal alien from an ICE officer, it is a felony. To impede a federal law enforcement officer is a felony. So don’t cross that line. We got a strong AG coming in, Pam Bondi. And we will present these prosecutions. So don’t test us. If you don’t want to help, stay out of the way. But I would think we’d all be on the same page.
Let me tell you something about sanctuary cities. Sanctuaries are sanctuaries for criminals only. You saw a tape of the guy said, we want victims and witnesses that are crying to feel comfortable coming to the police. And so we don’t want to send a message, we’re working with ICE. That’s a felony. We don’t want to send a message, we’re working with ICE. That is crap.
Victims and witnesses of a crime don’t want the bad guy released back in the community. That’s just common sense. It puts the community at risk. And like I said before, if you force us into the community, we’re going to find the bad guy. There’s probably others we’re going to find, which means they’re going to be arrested too. So by them putting up roadblocks and being a sanctuary city, they’re going to get the exact result that they don’t want. More ICE officers in their neighborhoods.
DR. PHIL: It just seems crazy to me that if there’s a suspect and they’re in their jail, that they would open that jail and say, here you go. Do what you’re going to do. It is much safer.
TOM HOMAN: And why won’t you give us access to somebody you locked in a jail cell? Because obviously the public safety threat, and when you’re done with them, let us have them. Because then we’re not only removing from the community, we’re removing from the country so he can’t re-offend. Look at recidivism rates, for God’s sake.
They’re going to release him back in the immigrant community. He’s likely to re-offend in the immigrant community. How is that protecting the immigrant community? MS-13 thrives on citizens from El Salvador. Let us protect American citizens. Let us protect the immigrant community. Give us the bad guy.
Chinese Immigrants and National Security Concerns
DR. PHIL: I need to ask you about the Chinese immigrants that have crossed the border because that number has gone way up. And I’ve talked to people that are concerned that we have vulnerability to our energy grid in the United States. This is a map showing where Chinese have purchased farmland in the United States in pretty massive quantities. Those purchases are strategically around military bases. And so we’ve got, in 23, I think, 30,000 Chinese immigrants across the border. How do we protect against them organizing in some way and taking down the energy grid in this country in a coordinated fashion?
TOM HOMAN: You put a strong president in the Oval Office, and that’ll happen January 20th. This administration won’t do it. And look, this is a huge national security threat to us.
TOM HOMAN: And it’s closer to 60,000 Chinese under the Biden administration. 60,000 Chinese males, mostly military age, do not leave China without the coordination and approval of the Chinese government. That just don’t happen. So this is a coordinated national security vulnerability that a Chinese government is involved in. That’s my true belief. And it’s a huge national security vulnerability.
This administration did nothing to China about creating the precursors that make the fentanyl to sell the cartels. Nothing. They’ve done nothing about Mexican cartels. President Trump is committed to take on the Mexican cartels because they’ve killed more Americans than every terrorist organization in this world combined.
DR. PHIL: When we come back, the state of Texas has donated land to help with these mass deportations. What will that look like? We’ll talk about that next.
Texas Donating Land for Deportation Facilities
DR. PHIL: Texas Land Commissioner Dr. Don Buckingham has offered over 1,400 acres of state land in Starr County, Texas for building deportation facilities and says more land is on the way. Now, the state has already started building a border wall on some of the land, aiming to finish a mile within a week. Dawn, thank you for being here.
DR. DON BUCKINGHAM: My pleasure.
DR. PHIL: So 1,400 acres. What’s the plan for using this?
DR. DON BUCKINGHAM: We just want to be good partners. Texas has been standing in the gap while the Biden administration has abdicated its duty to protect our border. And so our offer was simply this. If we have something that’s of use to you, there’s a way to help get these violent criminals off of our soil who are raping and murdering our sons and daughters. We want to be a part of that.
DR. PHIL: Yeah. Is there a plan to utilize that?
TOM HOMAN: I’m writing the plan as we speak. I was working on it last night, matter of fact. Look, Governor Abbott has done more to secure this border than anybody in this administration. Every ounce of fentanyl his troopers seize is less overdose deaths across the nation. Every person they arrest for trespass, at least they vet them, they fingerprint them, make sure they’re not releasing an unknown terrorist.
So Governor Abbott, God bless him, he’s done more than anybody in the Biden administration to secure the border and protect America.
DR. PHIL: Yeah. And if this is used to build a place to house these people temporarily for deportation, how long are they likely to stay in this?
TOM HOMAN: They’ll be moving in and out. One day we have a flight to the El Salvador nations. Next day we have a flight to Asia. So we’ll be moving through, but I think there’s 1,400 acres of land. That saves us from acquiring that land. The government never buys things real fast. And we do, we overpay for it. So having this from the state of Texas is great.
The Human Cost of Illegal Immigration
DR. PHIL: When we talk about this, we talk about numbers, and numbers can take the humanity out of it because you’re talking about saving lives. It’s important to realize they’re being victimized in getting here. They’re being victimized by these cartels. Let’s take a look at some video of a two-year-old migrant girl recently found alone at the Texas border. Now the girl, a Salvadorian, was among 200 migrants with 60 unaccompanied minors. This is a two-year-old child that shows up with a post-it note. How did she get there?
TOM HOMAN: Obviously her parents played the criminal cartel, have her smuggled in. Thank God she’s alive because too many of these young people perish. Hopefully she wasn’t sexually assaulted by some animal in the cartel because it happens all the time. But she’ll eventually be released so find her parents and deliver to the parents. What I want to happen when the parents come forward, we’ll process them too. And when that little girl goes to immigration court, the parents can be standing shoulder to shoulder with her because that’s parenting 101, in my opinion, and we’ll deport them all together as family.
This should not happen. We’ve got to put a stop to this. It’s just madness. I don’t know who put a two-year-old in the hands of a criminal cartel to be smuggled across the border is so dangerous. The river alone, the river’s taken thousands of lives. The desert, thousands of lives. I don’t understand it, but we’re going to put an end to it.
The Difficult Work of Border Patrol Agents
DR. PHIL: You and I are going to be meeting with the sheriffs in Arizona and when they go into the desert to intercept some of these illegal immigrants, they go in with supplies that are life-saving. They go in with water and food and clothing and medicine because if somebody gets left behind, they just die in the desert. Sometimes they think these border guards are kind of jack-booted thugs. They’re actually going out there to save lives because these people are going through 50, 60 miles of really rugged terrain, often carrying homemade backpacks full of drugs, and it’s tough. It’s rugged out there. This is not an easy thing.
TOM HOMAN: I appreciate you saying that because that’s not talked about enough. Look, when I was a border patrol agent, most of the times I didn’t eat my lunch. I gave it to an alien I arrested who hasn’t eaten in days because I can eat later that day and he hasn’t eaten.
Men and women in border patrol, they’re the only humane thing on that border. The men and women wearing green, they’re patriots. They’re the finest 1% this country has. And they bring toys from their own children to some of these camps so these children have something to play with. They take sicknesses home to their families, whether it’s measles, chickenpox, TB. I mean, they deal with us every day.
But the most important thing I want everybody to understand, they’re the only humane thing on this border. They’re moms and dads, too. They’re sons and daughters, too. They don’t hang their heart on the wall when they wear that uniform. A lot of the left likes to push that message. They’re racist and they’re a bunch of stormtroopers. It’s just ridiculous.
The men and women in the border patrol, God bless them, I wore that uniform. They save thousands of lives every year for exactly what you said. The men and women in the border patrol are great patriots and I want to remind people, I think on the last count under this administration, I think they got close to 40 suicides. The highest level of suicides in any law enforcement agency, federal, state, and local.
DR. PHIL: Why is that?
TOM HOMAN: Talking to little girls who were raped multiple times. Seeing the devastation on the border certainly had a weigh on them. So these men and women have taken a toll the last four years. I was down there last week. Their spirits are picking up because they know the rescue is coming and they’re going to get to do the job again.
DR. PHIL: Yes, they know that. So if you see a border patrol agent, just thank them because they haven’t got thanked in four years.
TOM HOMAN: Yeah, absolutely.
DR. PHIL: We’re out of time. I want to thank Tom Homan and Dr. Don Buckingham. Thank you so much for what you’re doing.
TOM HOMAN: Tom and I actually head to the Arizona border to find out what he has planned to protect our nation.
You said that this got to the point that it actually broke you. 19 dead people at my feet who baked to death. All the ones that died are in their underwear trying to get some relief from the heat. A five-year-old little boy wearing Batman underwear. Same underwear my son has. My five-year-old son. That incident back in Tractor Trailer, that changed me forever. I’m a tough guy, but I had to get help.
This isn’t about being a badass. This is about saving lives. You won’t want to miss that. We get a behind-the-scenes tour of Arizona’s state-of-the-art facility that houses 1,300 cameras all pointed at the border catching as many of the illegal crossings as possible. To tell you, it’s pretty amazing.
DR. PHIL: Also tomorrow, you can check out my new episode of the all-new Dr. Phil podcast with tonight’s guest, Tom Homan. Download, subscribe, follow, and listen to the Dr. Phil podcast for free on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or on your favorite podcast app.
For more information about tonight’s episode, you can log on to drphil.com. Thank you for watching. You don’t want to miss tomorrow. We’ll see you next time. Thanks so much.
