Tucker Carlson Show: w/ Comedian Owen Benjamin (Transcript)

They’d throw into the ground. It was really interesting. And so like a really, really fat guy, you don’t call fat. He doesn’t care. It’s like a guy like me who eats too many cookies because he has 4 kids. Like, I’d spiral. It’s like where the pride is.

TUCKER CARLSON: Totally agree. Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Like if someone made fun of me for my pants not being designer enough, I’d be like, you’re gay. I wouldn’t even care. But like if they made fun of the things that I have issues with, and so I would look at people and I’d try to—

TUCKER CARLSON: I think that all the time.

OWEN BENJAMIN: I try to find their pride. And so, even though I could be a little harsh, it was actually good for them. And so I’d get a bigger crowd than the joust. Like, that was always my goal. The joust would have this joust going, and I’m like, I got to beat that joust because it became this show where, because I wouldn’t attack women, I just overly complimented women because that would be the way to get the guy.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Because you never attack a woman. It’s like, “Oh, your wife is so beautiful. Are you at work all day?” And so she’s having fun with the tomatoes. He has to get it. And I do it to everyone so they knew it wasn’t personal. And that’s why I have to make fun of every identity. Like when they say you can’t make fun of Black people or Jewish people, whatever, I’m like, then I can’t make fun of Muslims or Christians. I have to have everyone or else I’m a mercenary.

TUCKER CARLSON: Because you believe in universal principles.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Exactly. And it’s like, I can’t show favoritism. And ironically, that’s how I believe. It’s very cruel to do that. I would come up with like veteran jokes for my veteran friends, or wheelchair jokes for my wheelchair friends. If not, they’re like subhuman. It’s like, “Oh, don’t say anything to him. He can’t handle it.” Like, I would feel horrible if someone was — imagine if all the guys were riffing and they’re like, “Don’t make fun of Owen. He’s like very weak and dumb.” Like, what? No, you can make fun of me. And so I’m from like the honor culture of like, you make fun of weakness and you get stronger and you build bonds.

TUCKER CARLSON: I am too.

The Shift in Hollywood: Obama’s Second Term

OWEN BENJAMIN: So I saw that happening in LA and it was Obama’s second term. I think something happens second term when people double down.

TUCKER CARLSON: I agree.

OWEN BENJAMIN: When they’re just ghost riding and I’m like, at that point you can either be like, “This didn’t turn out the way we thought,” or they just tunnel vision and become insane. I saw that with the left in Hollywood then. And you can kind of see that happening now.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. Kind of.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Where you’re like, remember that whole Epstein thing and the war thing? And people are just like, “No. This is even better.” That was the Obama thing. At first it was like, “Oh, this guy’s going to stop racism and he’s so peaceful,” right? And then when that wasn’t the thing, they’d be like, “The word family is a slur.” And I saw that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Even in your world, even among comics, you saw that?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. Like Sarah Silverman — she became this super intense — she used to have this hilarious joke. She goes, “I saw the movie 300. It was how gay it was out of 10.” Funny, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, very.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Imagine her doing that now. All of a sudden, those people, all those hardcore liberal types, they were once somewhat funny, and then boom, it was all gone. Everything’s serious. Everything’s about victim consciousness. And I was like, what’s funny about — and I saw this one special where this girl was just talking about being raped. And she was like, “I was raped.” And people are laughing. She’s like, “Don’t laugh.” I’m like, dude, this is nuts. You want to give victims relief. That’s not helping the victim.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s important to know that whatever you’re going through is pretty common because we’re all people.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: When someone is really distressed, it’s helpful for someone to say, “I’ve been through this. I know someone’s been through it. People go through this.” Like, it’s going to be fine or not. You’re going to go to heaven in the end or whatever. But to put their suffering in perspective is relief for them.

OWEN BENJAMIN: That’s what “How to Slay a Wizard” — it’s like one of the main things is isolation. Like, you’re the only one thinking this. And so that’s the role of the comedian. Like, the fight between a man and a woman where she had a bad dream about you, right? Stuff like that. They’ll laugh.

TUCKER CARLSON: Wait, that’s happened to other people, right?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Exactly. Exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: “You cheated on me in my dream.”

OWEN BENJAMIN: I was laughing with Candace Owens — we’re just going back and forth on Twitter about that when everyone was freaking out about her dream. I’m like, do they not know women have dreams and take them very seriously?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Very. That’s every woman.

TUCKER CARLSON: I know.

OWEN BENJAMIN: I have dreams about spiders and clouds and stuff. They have these specific dreams.

TUCKER CARLSON: And they carry over into the day.

The Breaking Point: The Trans Kids Issue

OWEN BENJAMIN: So anyway, what happened with me when I took the jester hat off — and I’d never done that because I was always seen as the likable guy that you could parachute in with any culture, and I’d fit in and make them laugh — was the trans kid thing. That’s when I snapped out of that whole thing.

Because I was always more like libertarian looking at gay stuff and even like abortion. I never really thought about it. I was just like, “Oh yeah, if somebody is like raped, who are you to force them to have a baby?” I never got anyone pregnant. I never thought about it. And I just couldn’t believe that somebody would lie about that. Like, that’s crazy.

And so saying a kid is trans was like — I was like, what? It was like a nightmare. A kid can’t consent to anything, and trans implies sexuality. I play classical music and I own a pink shirt. Am I a girl? So what exactly is a girl? You’re talking about sexuality in a way, right? Like, you are a girl with female genitals now.

And so as that started unfolding, I go to Twitter and I’m repped at CAA. I was hosting award shows honoring DiCaprio and I was in that realm.

The Cancellation Begins

OWEN BENJAMIN: I wasn’t like a celebrity, but my picture was on the wall next to Chris Rock’s. I was seen as like a strong craftsman at comedy. I was writing sitcoms, I was a writer. And I was like, guys, this is actually super evil. And I saw publicly, I’m just like this one guy, guys, this is super evil.

This one guy that was on NPR, he was saying things about his like 5-year-old. And I started— so he was like, people knew him and stuff. And I just started writing to him publicly, like, dude, you’re totally abusing your kid, right? Like, that’s abuse. And then I just start going, I get tunnel vision, right? I’m just like— and so that started this whole thing.

Oh, I forgot to tell you, I’d already left LA because I had a child and I wanted to be around family. And my brother lived in Saranac Lake, and I just knew I could do it there. I didn’t need to be in a city. I didn’t want to be in a place with dead people on the street. And so I was still at CAA. I was still getting deals and working on stuff. But you see the world differently when you actually live in real America.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, totally different.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Oh, man. Like, seeing the vet that’s actually fought the war and seeing the people on the fentanyl, you know what I mean? It’s like a totally different experience. It’s like the Buddha first leaving the castle and seeing that. I literally felt that way. In Hollywood, you just don’t see it. They’re just like— and then you’re like, dude, no, we need guns to kill a coyote that just killed my chickens. Like, you don’t know what a chicken is, do you?

TUCKER CARLSON: No, it doesn’t begin life as a nugget.

OWEN BENJAMIN: No, dude, people don’t know where onions come from. It’s insane, dude. Don’t even get me started.

So anyway, so I’m there, and this all starts happening. I had college tours booked. I was about to do UConn, and looking back, you’re way overpaid for that stuff. Like, I now realize that it’s funny money coming from strange places. But my agent at CAA was like, they just canceled. And the next one just canceled. And they said because I’m a man of hate, right? Because of the trans kid thing. And on Twitter, just from Twitter. And so then my agent drops me.

TUCKER CARLSON: Your agent dropped you?

OWEN BENJAMIN: No, I was no longer at CAA. My manager also dropped me. Everyone just starts alienating themselves from me.

TUCKER CARLSON: How did they explain that decision?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Well, I will shout out my manager. He was the one guy that didn’t moralize it. He was just like, “Buddy, I don’t know what to do, man. Like, all these guys are calling me.” I’m like, okay. Versus like, “What you’ve done is just so evil.” I’m like, bro, I’ve seen you do ketamine on a toilet. Like, you’re not going to judge me, man.

And I’m like, kids are innocent. I know children are innocent. Same with the abortion thing. As soon as my wife’s belly started growing, I’m like, oh my God. I’m like, that’s a life, man. So all these things start changing.

A Conspiracy of Like-Minded Temperament

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, wait, did you actually get a moral lecture from a CAA agent?

OWEN BENJAMIN: I got it from all these people. I won’t even say names because I just like to avoid that stuff. But people are texting me like, “What did you do?” Because people in writers rooms and high-up circles are basically saying, like, Owen’s out. Like, it was boom, boom, boom. People that I’ve been in their wedding where I had to wear a freaking yarmulke to be at the wedding are calling me a man of hate, right? And I’m like, guys, it’s me.

And I thought it was this horrible misunderstanding. And so some people— I actually got a lot of support even from a lot of the neocon type. So that kind of tribe picked me up, like the Dennis Pragers and all those guys.

TUCKER CARLSON: You must have felt like your life was falling apart. It was falling apart.

OWEN BENJAMIN: The irony though, and this is the theme of the whole thing, is I’m with my brother, I’m doing tree work. Like, a veteran that had killed a lot of people— we called it tree hab because he got off opiates, like doing hard work. Toiling, as we were talking about.

And my life is actually going great, but I still think it’s going horrible, right? Like, I’m feeling— we just got a chicken. Like, I can’t believe it. My son— I’m looking at this miracle. Me and my wife are close, but yet I’ve lost everything. And that’s such a spell, right? Like, think about people that have had horrible thoughts of despair. “I’ve lost everything.” But it’s like dollars, right? I know that sucks, but breath, taste, love— you’ve lost nothing. You know what I mean?

And so the dead wood just started burning and out of nowhere, I thought I was dying on a hill and all these people just came and supported, right? And I was like, wow. And so I still tour and I start renting theaters. I’m like, I don’t need anyone to book my theaters. Let’s do this. And then they started canceling independent theaters. So it was like, oh, the free market. I was like, oh no, I can sell out. I’ve never been accused of a misdemeanor, right? Like, what did I do? The trans kid thing. But the word had went out, like, you’ve got to start going at this dude’s pocketbook. And so now I’m working more with the neocon types because they’re willing to ask you a question.

TUCKER CARLSON: Who— I mean, this is an organized effort against you.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, absolutely.

TUCKER CARLSON: This is not organic. Who was organizing it?

OWEN BENJAMIN: I have some theories, but you don’t actually know for sure. I know the motivations. Every time I think I know for sure, it switches a little. So now I try to not— it’s not because I’m worried to say it, I can’t really figure it out. It’s almost like a swarm.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: It’s like a behavior where they’re signaling. That sounds even crazier, but no, I’ve seen it. It’s like a behavior, like a fractal. And there’s no one really in charge, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s like a conspiracy of like-minded temperament.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Because from my background, I’m like, who did this to me? There’s no one there, because who would really do that? It’s like a collective evil.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And everyone’s just doing their little thing with their behavior, and it’s all based on these spells. And so it took me a little while to figure that out because at first I’m like, it’s the Democrats. And then it’s like, oh, it’s the this, it’s the that. I went through the Muslim thing. Oh, the Muslims.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. China.

OWEN BENJAMIN: It’s Xi Jinping. China. Oh, yeah, man. It’s these damn Chinese people that made my phone. I’m like, all these contradictions. And then I realize, it’s like, it’s the Jews. But I know this cool Jew, right? And then I had to come up with a term called deli Jews. The ones that take all the blame even though they’re like nice and they’re just kind of complaining about their broken air conditioner. I’m like, who is it? And then I’m like, it’s a behavior. It’s a spirit. It got me much more actually faithful. Because I was like, I don’t have conventional ways of describing this. So then I start working with more the traditional conservative types.

Melting Down and Finding Clarity

TUCKER CARLSON: Are you melting down emotionally at this point? I mean, you moved to LA from upstate New York.

OWEN BENJAMIN: I have a huge chip on my shoulder, and I’m very defensive.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Looking back, the things that I would change— I don’t want to change anything because it all led to this, to that, to that. But if it was me now, I would know that I wasn’t in the danger I thought I was and people weren’t actually as threatening, because I would see people as a threat to me. Like, you’re trying to destroy me.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And so I would react.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’ve been there.

OWEN BENJAMIN: I would react emotionally and react more personally. And now I’m just like— dude, that’s when the power of forgiveness stuff is so real, where you’re like, oh, man, that sucks where you’re at.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And so that was me melting down where it was emotional. But looking back, I’m never like, we have to kill people, or none of that stuff. Like, zero. I was actually getting less into alcohol because I felt like it was a weakness. Because the Hollywood in my hometown, like, the culture is just, you just drink to land the plane.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And now I’m doing these live streams and I realized that because I was always like a happy drink guy— I wasn’t the dark drinker guy. I was always like, my first special was called High Five Till It Hurts, right? I was that guy. But I could tell that it would make me a little less aware of what I’m doing and that I could feel shame after from going off too hard on someone. They could use that emotion. And so my personal life is getting better, which was crazy, but it looks like I’m losing everything at the same time.

And so now I’m on this genuine truth journey and I’m really thinking about, did I lose jester’s privilege because I took the trans thing so seriously? But now I’m taking a lot of time like, guys, family as well. Like, this is crazy the way this is going.

Despair as a Sin

OWEN BENJAMIN: I see the Sackler family. I call out— I got a strike for hate speech because of that. The Sackler family who owned Purdue Pharma, right back then before the Netflix special, people didn’t know because I’m the “who” guy. Who’s doing it? And my friend, that vet I told you about, died. And it was so sad. How opiates, despair— it’s despair that is the sin. Despair is— that’s why there’s people I’ll go at. I’m like, if you spread despair, you’re basically poisoning people.

TUCKER CARLSON: That is such a wise thing. I’ve done a lot of despair spreading, and I regret it.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Oh, me too. But see, telling the truth can come off as despair, but it’s still good. I like when you do this stuff about who’s doing what and what’s going on.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, but I think it can be too much. I mean, it bums me out. So we’re commanded not to despair.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Exactly. That’s when that principle, those fundamentals kick in where there’s been times where I’m like, but I know despair is a sin. That’s like spitting in the face of a gift, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And it’s like, because that’s how I feel about suicide. I’m like, that’s the greatest— that’s so awful. It’s like you’re created, you’re given all of this, and you’re just getting rid of it. It’s like someone, like your wife, making you a beautiful dinner, and you’re just like— that would be insane.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s the same impulse, though.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: So you get mad and you smash something.

The Cost of Truth in Comedy

OWEN BENJAMIN: And it’s not like I’m some martyr. I can’t do comedy without truth. I would lose the tether to my job. I was never like, “Look at me, I’m saving the children.” I was like, if I don’t stay in reality, I can’t bounce the joke off of anything, and I will crumble and be humiliated.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes, that’s true.

OWEN BENJAMIN: I’ve seen it over and over again. That’s why you got to stay grounded, because fame and money, it’s just energy, right? It’s not good or bad, it’s just energy. And if you don’t ground that, people go absolutely insane. You’ve seen that over and over and over again in Hollywood. You’ll see these funny comics, they’ll get these huge amounts of money, they get in debt. That’s like the major thing.

TUCKER CARLSON: And then that’s what makes them a slave, because they get a huge amount of money, but they also get in debt.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Exactly. Let’s say you get $1 million, they would get like an $8 million house with the mortgage. And so then they feel they have to go along with all these evil things or else they’ll lose everything. Because I kept seeing it, and I’m like, I know they’re not wicked. There’s a difference between sin and wickedness. Weakness, which we all have — cookies, emotions.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m with you.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, totally.

TUCKER CARLSON: Cookies and emotions, actually. Nicely put.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. And wickedness is the hatred of beauty. Wanting to destroy innocence, blow up a dome, right? That’s wicked, where you’re like, you hate God, versus like, “Man, I got hammered and just freaked out again.” That’s different, because you know what is true and false.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: So to lose the tether of what is true and false is to go — it’s like the callus, where you don’t feel the spirit anymore. And that, to me, was my nightmare. So I’m like, I can’t do that.

Leaving Town and Finding Out Who Loves You

OWEN BENJAMIN: So that’s why I left my brother’s town, because I do this big special. Everyone’s pumped. All the locals are like, “Man, this is epic. We can do comedy right here.” But it was like 900 people in the town. My special had like 1,000. So that’s very intimidating to local principalities.

And so one lady wanted me to apologize for a joke and I wouldn’t do it. And people — my brother’s friends are like, “Come on, man, just apologize.” And I get it. When you’re an alpha male in a region, it’s like, “Come on, keep everyone happy.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And I totally understand that. I’m like, “Guys, I can’t apologize though, because I’m not sorry.” I’m not stubborn, I’ll roll with anything, but then my apology doesn’t mean anything, and I need that. If I apologize, I am sorry, which I do do. But if I’m not sorry, then that’s a form of usury, and then it doesn’t mean anything.

I love that I can tell my wife I’m sorry and she knows. If she doesn’t believe me, then my life spirals. And so at that point, we had to leave that town, and it was more just like a mercy. I’m like, “This can’t really work,” because I was affecting my brother’s life. And so we went to where my wife’s family is, and that worked out better because at that point —

TUCKER CARLSON: What is your wife saying at this point? So she marries you. You’re this on-the-rise successful Hollywood guy.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: As your baby and you get canceled, and then you have to — you’re on your third town.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. Well, that’s when you realize your wife loves you.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Because you never really know as things are going up.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. So true.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. It’s the same with debt. It’s like, what is it, Warren Buffett or something? “When the tide goes out, you see who’s wearing their underpants.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Exactly.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. And so at that point I’m like, “Wow, you really do love me,” right? Because she’s ride or die. I mean, she’ll get upset if it’s because of something real, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Because I’m bringing my outdoor friends inside with a lot of PTSD, right? They’re yelling at 2 in the morning. And so that’s totally understandable. That’s why we came up with outdoor friends.

TUCKER CARLSON: Outdoor friends.

Moral Wounds and the Veteran Experience

OWEN BENJAMIN: Because I’m hanging out with a ton of vets at this point, right? And they’re great guys, but wild swings. And that’s when I saw a psychic wound — a moral wound — what that looks like. Where at one moment you’re like, “We have to turn the Middle East to glass.” They’re proud of their skill. And then on another moment, it’s like, “Man, they’re just like us. They have families.” And that chasm causes so much pain.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes, it does.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And, dude, that’s where forgiveness is so important.

TUCKER CARLSON: And you see them ping-ponging back and forth.

OWEN BENJAMIN: That’s the pain, right? That’s why I would make fun of vets and non-vets. A lot of these people in NGOs are like, “How dare you attack our vets?” I’m like, “They’re finally laughing.” Because I would do this thing on Veterans Day. I’d be like, “Haven’t you guys had enough? We give you so much. If you really left it on the field, it would be Memorial Day.” And they’re just laughing because they get idolized by the people starting the wars.

TUCKER CARLSON: And I know that in the most false way.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. And that’s me as a comedian. Anytime people are like, “Man, you’re so awesome,” I’m like, “I’m not. I’m good at this one thing, but I have a spotlight. So you think that, but please don’t treat me like that.” I’m not an idol, because that’s a form of punishment too. The pit and the pedestal.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: A lot of people don’t realize the pedestal is torturous.

TUCKER CARLSON: You don’t allow any flattery in your vicinity.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Exactly. Exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: Ever. When the Pharisees come, when they’re about to kill Jesus, the trick is they go in there like, “You’re such a good guy. You only tell the truth.” They flatter him.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. I mean, people tell me, “You’re the reason I had a kid.” I’m like, “All praise to God.” That’s a protection. Because if you’re the reason for the good, you’re also the reason for the bad.

TUCKER CARLSON: Fair.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And it’s like, we’re not gods, right? That’s a horrifying road. And so many people — narcissism is that. It’s like, truth comes from their emotions. And that’s why you’re seeing so much lying now.

Truth Is Outside of You

TUCKER CARLSON: Can you explain that a little more fully?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. My motto is, “I might be wrong, but I’m not lying.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes, it’s my motto also, actually.

OWEN BENJAMIN: I love that, dude. One of the most amazing things I saw you do — and this is not flattery, this is just a fact — is when you said you were wrong about the Iraq War. Because it’s rare. That establishes that truth is outside of you.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: That’s rare. A lot of people, they’re like, “I might be lying, but I’m not wrong.” Because they’re like, “Oh no, it turns out that was all wrong, but I was still right, ’cause it’s me.”

I saw that in physics. I had a physics podcast at Caltech with my buddy who’s a nuclear physicist and dark matter. I couldn’t stop laughing when I realized this. So they have these gravitational equations, and when it wasn’t matching anything, they said, “Oh, there’s dark matter.” And I’m like, “What’s that?” They’re like, “95% of the universe you can’t see or measure, and it’s like most of the gravity.” And I’m like, “How do you know it exists?” They’re like — I swear to God — they’re like, “Because if not, we’d be wrong.” And I’m like, “So you can’t measure it?” They’re like, “No, that’s dark matter, but it’s there.” I’m like, “How do you know?” They’re like, “Because if not, then this is wrong.”

Vox Dei published that. He did a book breaking down the math of evolution — it’s so bad — because he’s one of those super geniuses. Vox is a great guy. And the actual math of it is so bad. Just read the book, Probability Zero. It’s like, how long would it take for a mutation to permeate to the actual population? And when you see how completely ridiculous it is, I think they have trauma where they’re like, “Well, it can’t be that, or else I put a square on my head and bragged to everyone, and my life is a lie.” Like, the guy that changed your oil is actually smarter than you, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: That’s when the shame kicks in, where they’re like, “I called all these people deplorable mouth breathers. I tried to eliminate their population, and it turns out they’re way better at things.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: When I found that out, I was like, “Wow, these guys are great.” That’s the difference. You might feel some pain of pride. We have to make some phone calls, right? Because I’ve been wrong about a million things.

TUCKER CARLSON: Me too.

OWEN BENJAMIN: But it’s like — I like being wrong, because I’m like, “Oh, it’s usually better than I thought.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Always. And it’s such a burden lifted. “Oh, I don’t have to pretend.”

OWEN BENJAMIN: I hate when something’s wrong out there, because it’s rippling out and I’m trying to help people not ripple it out. It’s almost like a disease.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. And you’re stopping the spread.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. Stopping the spread.

TUCKER CARLSON: “Safe and effective” — which is another claim that they couldn’t walk back because their pride hung on it.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Imagine, but the spell is — safe for who, and effective at what?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, exactly.

OWEN BENJAMIN: The assumptions are how they get the more honor-based Anglo-Saxon Germanic type cultures. It’s like, “Well, it can’t be that. No one’s that crazy.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Right, right.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And so then we don’t ask the follow-up question, because it’s too dark. It’s too dark.

The “Grabbler” Mentality and Identity Traps

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. It’s like the chutzpah culture, which can be very funny. Where it’s like, you’ll never guess this loophole I figured out. We can redefine a word and get all these free pencils. And it’s like, yeah, but that’s the way I like to describe it is, there’s two ways to win a race. You either run faster or you get the other guy slower.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Right. It’s like my house is now nice because I blew up the pretty house.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. It’s like the famous Russian proverb about the peasants being given cows and the first thing you do is you go kill your neighbor’s cow, right?

OWEN BENJAMIN: And it’s a behavior. That’s why I don’t isolate it to one identity. That’s why I say like “grabbler” or something. Because I see it in all populations. I actually think it’s a trap to say that all evil disseminates from one group. That’s like one of the classics, the identity trap.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Because I see that with a lot of the white guy stuff. I’m like, no, I don’t want to be defined by we need more of an arbitrary thing, but we’re still just going for greatness. I see that with— worse. Yeah, it’s of course, but so many people are falling for this. It’s like, oh no, we just have to get all whites. I’m like, no, we need all competent, good, moral. And if there’s more of one group, that’s fine, right? Of course.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, it’s absurd. It’s exculpatory. That’s why people love it, because it’s like, I’m on the winning team no matter what.

OWEN BENJAMIN: I was telling that to one of my— like, I have an Israeli listener, and we were laughing because I’m like, you guys remind me of American Indian tribes I grew up with where it’s like, “our nation, right or wrong.” I’m like, that doesn’t go well.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, it doesn’t.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Because you have to go for greatness or else it becomes very— you can’t trust each other. And he was laughing. He’s like, “It’s so true, man. It’s very tribal.” I’m like, dude, all the natives I know, they’re all drinking mouthwash, man. They’re not doing great.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, no. I shouldn’t laugh.

OWEN BENJAMIN: No, it’s true. I’ve come across my whole life, like, these are close friends of mine, some of the best athletes in the world, and then they just start drinking mouthwash and I’m like, dude. And that’s despair, right? Because you can always get out.

The Daily Wire World and Being Kicked Off Platforms

TUCKER CARLSON: So when you say the neocons, like news organizations, websites, like—

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, like the more Daily Wire crowd and Knowles and Crowder and all those guys. And I still have a soft spot for Knowles. I think he’s pretty— you know, Knowles.

TUCKER CARLSON: I like Knowles.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, me too. It’s just the Ben Shapiro eyebrows, really. I mean, it’s just been getting a little intense.

TUCKER CARLSON: Very. Yeah. Are those real?

OWEN BENJAMIN: I don’t think so.

TUCKER CARLSON: Prosthetic eyebrows. I’ve never heard of that.

OWEN BENJAMIN: That’s some dark trolling.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: No, like, imagine just putting— I mean, he never had those eyebrows and now he has them. Like, you don’t just grow more eyebrows.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, no. And the thickness of them, unless there’s like some kind of propecia or something on there, unless someone close to him is putting Rogaine on his eyebrows.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, that would be pretty funny, though.

TUCKER CARLSON: It wouldn’t shock me, but the whole thing is weird.

Vince Vaughn, Heroes, and the Swarm That Hates Inspiration

OWEN BENJAMIN: So you wind up in that world. Because I was so happy that they were willing to say the things that Hollywood wouldn’t say.

TUCKER CARLSON: Me too.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. Like, seeing Crowder pray at a meal blew my mind. Because I was just so into that gratitude because I love that stuff. Like, in Hollywood, I even texted Vince this morning about— he was the one being like, “Have kids.” And he made it funny. And that really motivated me because there’s no voices in Hollywood telling people to have kids. It’s always get a bigger house, have more sex partners, get a bigger deal, have a better car. And Vince is like, “Baby, you got to start making it count. Stop pulling out like a coward.” And I’m like, okay. And then every Father’s Day, I’m like, dude, that was so cool you did that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Vince Vaughn convinced you to have kids?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. Because it was always there. I like strong paternal leaders. I’m not this hyper, “it’s always me” guy. I like teams. I’m real big on a guy I can look up to.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And so that’s why in a world without heroes— this swarm hates heroes. They hate inspiration. That’s why they don’t like architecture, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Because it makes you feel hope. You’re like, “Oh, wow, that’s beautiful. Tomorrow will be a better day.” They’re like, “Oh, we got to burn that down.” Yeah, literally. And it’s sad, right? It doesn’t get me angry now because I’m like, imagine— I see my kids, they can have like one bouncing ball and they can have so much joy. And I know people, and I’m sure you do too, like on a giant yacht, on all these designer drugs, being praised, and they’re thinking about jumping off the yacht.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes, I know many people like that.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And if I was going to defend them, I would say what they’re thinking is, “I’ve sacrificed so much. I’ve worked so hard. I’ve humiliated myself. And that dude on a pontoon boat is so much happier.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Why? Right. And then they get mad at God. And that’s why that’s that fractal where it’s like, “God is wrong.” And so once I started realizing that the grand plan is the good plan, all these little things started not scaring me. And I’ll have stresses and all that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Little things like being bankrupted.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. And to continue the story, after that, things got way crazier.

TUCKER CARLSON: Really? After you got rescued by the Daily Wire crowd?

Being Labeled and Kicked Off Platforms

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. Because I started seeing that certain identities can be liability shields when you’re selling opioids. And same with the sex abuse stuff in Hollywood. I was pointing out people and I didn’t even put it together. And someone called me an anti-Semite and I was like, “What do you mean?” I didn’t even think about that. That’s why I did a whole tour called “Height Supremacist.” Because I was trying to— I was like, I could do that with height, right? Like, “Heil Hitler” and stuff. And so that comedy—

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re 6’8″, I should say that for people who can’t tell.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And so I was dramatizing that, like, I could do that with anything. Like, no, I’m talking about the behavior, right? Like, imagine if it’s like, “Oh, you’re just mad at 5’10” guys.” No, it’s a behavior.

And so I get kicked off PayPal, I get kicked off Airbnb— like, my Airbnb. Because they want to take out your income.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, so you had a rental property?

OWEN BENJAMIN: I had a rental because I just keep going. Like, I’m pretty upbeat. It’s like, oh, I can’t tour now, so I’ll do tree work with my brother and I’ll rent out this house and we’ll fix it up and we’ll learn about construction and all this stuff.

And so I got a letter from Airbnb that I couldn’t be on anymore because I was “mocking the victims of sexual assault.” The joke was, the MeToo movement comes out and I do a joke with dramatic irony where I’m like, “Yeah, so I’m in LA and I go, there’s one of these parades and I’m like, ladies, you might want to think of a different slogan then.” And it’s like, “Well, what do you mean?” So I do this long drawn-out thing and I’m like, “Pound MeToo.” And so the whole joke is that I think it’s a pound sign and the joke’s on me. Like, I’m the dumb guy, right?

So they said that I was mocking victims and I’m like, no, no, they’re laughing because this MeToo thing is using them for their agenda. I’m making fun of the wizard. And the wizards are the ones that get mad.

TUCKER CARLSON: Exactly.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Like, the people that hate conspiracy theorists are conspirators, right? It’s so simple.

“The People Who Hate Conspiracy Theories Are the Conspirators”

TUCKER CARLSON: Man, I’m sorry, I just have to— because I don’t know, people watch these on double speed. I just want to repeat what you said because it’s so worth it. “The people who hate conspiracy theories are the conspirators.”

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: That is so good.

OWEN BENJAMIN: It’s so true, dude. Why else would you hate conspiracy theories? It’s like, man, this conspiracy theorist— I’m like, you wouldn’t happen to be currently doing a conspiracy, would you?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know why that’s never occurred to me. The IQ gap is big.

OWEN BENJAMIN: It’s not even IQ. I’m just always around kids and animals.

TUCKER CARLSON: So am I. Well, animals at this point. So I’m sorry, I keep interrupting you.

OWEN BENJAMIN: No, I love it.

Leaving the Daily Wire World

TUCKER CARLSON: So how long did you remain in that world, in the Daily Wire adjacent world?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Well, I was writing for Crowder for a while. And yeah, it was more like they would start getting weird with me when I’d ask questions about why we’re not hanging on the moon. I’d love to go up there one day. Because I realized that’s their sacred cow. So Hollywood has abortion and all that stuff. And so I’m like, no, it’s just you’re tolerant of all that stuff.

Like I said, “Barack Obama stole my bike” and they’re like, “Oh, that’s clearly funny,” laugh, blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, okay, but I just did this joke about the size of someone’s hat and now you’re offended. I’m like, oh, so you have a team. I almost felt like a Middle Ages executioner where I couldn’t live in the village. I’m like, I’m not on any of your teams, man. I can’t. Because as soon as I do, I will lose the tether. I can’t be a comedian.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Like, the comedian. And I’m not against— I understand institutions. They have to maintain that. They can’t be like me. I just roam. And so I respect— I learned that over the years where I respect how, like, religious institutions, political institutions, they have to maintain their order.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: I can’t be in one of those because as soon as I see something, if I don’t do the joke, then I lose the whole thing. And so I’m like, I’m just going to be in the woods picking up rocks.

TUCKER CARLSON: But okay, so at what point did you decamp for the woods to pick up rocks?

COVID, Deplatforming, and the Illusion of Cancel Culture

OWEN BENJAMIN: Well, the whole time I was slowly just— oh, that’s a funny story. So we go to where my wife’s family is, and that’s much better because I learned the lesson. Don’t do stand-up where you live.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right. Fair. Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Because I didn’t know. I’m like, oh, this will be my job. And now I’m like, the whole thing is family. So I have these kids. I don’t want them to be like Owen Benjamin’s kids.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: I’m like, I want you to have great relationships with everybody. Because a lot of times it’s not even people that are offended. It’s just power freaks people out, where they just will look at them and be like, how can I? I just wanted them to have their life. So I just stopped doing— I didn’t do any stand-up in that area. I will profile, and that’s great.

And then COVID kicks in, right? So from the beginning, I mean, I did a joke about Ebola in 2017 where I was like, “O.J. Simpson’s killed more people than Ebola.” Like, I’m just doing jokes like that just to lower fear. And I’m not a virologist, but I’m like, “Guys, I have 16 friends that have died of opioids. Can we ease up on the strange African situation?” I’m like, despair is killing everyone, but sure, let’s watch Outbreak again. Like, this is ridiculous.

And I know a lot about mind control stuff, and that’s why I wouldn’t give one inch with the mask. I wouldn’t wear a mask. And again, it’s like apologizing for a joke. They’re like, “Just wear the mask. Come on.” And I’m like, that’s the start of it, right? That’s the dehumanizing start. And then it’s the next thing and the next thing and the next thing, right? It’s like that Star Trek episode, like, how many lights? And he has to say the wrong answer. Remember that one?

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course.

OWEN BENJAMIN: “There are 3 lights.” And he was about to get rescued and they were trying to create this thing of despair. And so I was like— and that area where my wife is from was like very bougie type people, it was like everyone was wearing a mask. And we had a community of like-minded people and they were fawning for all of it. And I’m like, guys, because from the beginning I thought it was to cancel the Olympics. I’m like, maybe it’s a debt thing with Japan. I never thought it was a valid thing because of how it was being presented.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: It’s like you get a free vax with donuts. I’m like, that’s not a health thing. Bill Gates. You don’t want to take health advice from a guy who gets awards for lowering the world population.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, fair.

Simple Questions That Break the Spell

OWEN BENJAMIN: And that’s why I got so deplatformed, because these simple questions just annihilate these spells. Like, “You’re born gay.” I’m like, so there are gay babies? And that alone, everyone’s like, think about it— gay babies. There’s no gay babies. Like, that’s a crazy thought. And so then you’re like, oh, maybe it does have to do with grooming and trauma and all this stuff. And then you start being like, you don’t need to be defined by your sin, and then work on it. Like, imagine if I was a cookie— I’m a cookie guy, right? Like, I can’t stop eating the cookies, right? It’s like they’re saying your sin is good and that’s your identity. Because I make fun of how you should have pride. Pride in it.

TUCKER CARLSON: The first of the deadly sins.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And I wasn’t a hypocrite. Like, when guys talk like that about women, I’m like, that’s like, you’re like a gay straight guy, right? When it’s like, “Oh, I just got another chick and this chick and this—” I’m like, how about you start a legacy, like children? I’m like, that’s not good what you’re doing. Like, that’s an indulgence, right?

And that’s why a lot of gay people privately are like, “I like that you’re not—” because a lot of them are motivated by how hypocritical people can be, where they’re like, “How dare you, gay guy?” But yet they’re using women for sex as if they’re nothing, and throwing them away and all this stuff. And so the fact that I was just like, I had a principle, a lot of gay guys were like, “Man, I just like that you’re like that,” because they were seeing that they were being used by Target and all this stuff. And so it’s so interesting behind the scenes how many people are actually not mad. It’s like this illusion.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes, I totally agree. I’ve experienced that my whole life.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Like, they called me a racist for, I don’t know, a decade or something. White supremacist. I never had a single Black person get up in my face.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Never.

TUCKER CARLSON: Not one time in an airport, sidewalk. Never one time. It was only angry white ladies. It was interesting. And you begin to realize, like, I don’t know, I’m not an expert on Black public opinion, but no one’s ever— not one time—

OWEN BENJAMIN: That’s the—

TUCKER CARLSON: —been mad.

Honor Culture and Comedy

OWEN BENJAMIN: That’s the devil’s joke. It’s like I became more racial because of Black rooms. Like, I didn’t want to talk about race. I want to talk relationships, dogs, piano. Like, yeah, that guy. And I’d do Cleveland, 90% Black, on a Wednesday where there’s like gangsters there. And if I showed weakness, I was dead.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: So I learned that, and then I learned the humor. Like, I’ve made fun of gangbangers for having diamond earrings, calling them princesses. They’re dying laughing. We hang out after. They’re telling me white people are created on an island and we’re like laughing, right? Like there’s nothing there. And then these white ladies are like, “Oh, how dare you?” They’re actually dehumanizing Black people. They’re like, they don’t understand jokes. They’re like, you give them a banana and a pat on the head. No, it’s so crazy. And I thought I was going crazy.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m like, they don’t understand. They literally can’t have driver’s licenses. It’s too complicated.

OWEN BENJAMIN: They don’t understand layers. They’re simple people. Give them a rhythm. Yeah, because you’re robbing them of it. And dude, a lot of Black comedy is the funniest because it’s got that honor aggression to it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. Wait, could you define that honor aggression?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. Like you’re attacking weaknesses in others versus attacking beauty, right? It’s like, look at this dude. And then you’re just like, “Who do you think you are with these pants?” type thing, right? Because you’re attacking vanity.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. And so I relate to that. That’s why I would relate to some Middle Eastern culture, because it’s a Bedouin thing. Same with Scottish people— they’re like that too.

TUCKER CARLSON: Exactly right. You’ve named some of the cultures I feel most comfortable with.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, it’s odd because it’s like your herd will travel, so you have to carry yourself properly everywhere you go, versus just a square that daddy manages, right? Because that’s how herding cultures survive— your honor, your word allows, or else it’s constant war.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: That’s why comedians have to have honor culture, because we travel and it’s like you have to have your word with the new people or else you’ll not be able to make them laugh.

TUCKER CARLSON: Huh.

Building Alternatives After Deplatforming

OWEN BENJAMIN: And so, yeah, I do— like, I just get out of El Paso, I’m making fun of Hispanic crowds, I’m doing that, and then I’m just getting these lectures from these ivory tower buffoons. And so my thing was not just yelling at them, because I would be like, “You’re so wrong. It’s infuriating.” It’s like saying that this is an elephant— it’s like hiring a mechanic and then lecturing them, and then your car explodes, and then blaming them, and then kicking them off YouTube because your car exploded. Like, what?

And so this whole time I have to keep building alternatives. Because I’m now off PayPal. So now they’re like, “Oh, why don’t you just rent your own theater if you don’t have CAA anymore?” I’m like, great idea. And then I’ll just sell tickets myself. PayPal kicks me off. I’m like, why? And that’s why they had to get me off Twitter and stuff first, because they didn’t want me to be able to tell the villagers.

TUCKER CARLSON: So, I mean, I’ve seen this happen to other people, not really as comprehensively as it happened to you.

OWEN BENJAMIN: No, because my audience was so big and I was so early that they were like, this has to stop immediately. Because I wasn’t political. I was like a child being like, “Wait a minute.” And they’re like, that’s the thing that actually can dismantle stuff. Because if you come from a tribe, people can just assume you’re just doing it because—

TUCKER CARLSON: Exactly, exactly.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And it was like almost impossible with me. They’re like, “You’re just doing it for clicks.” I’m like, I can’t even get clicks, right? I’m not on YouTube. And that’s why it always backfires. Because they kicked me off YouTube years ago. Now I probably wouldn’t even get— they’ve opened it up more.

TUCKER CARLSON: Are you not on YouTube?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Still not on YouTube. Yeah, I did my own Ladle.tv, $9.11 a month. Never forget. No, because I had to. They’re like— I’ve went down roads where I was getting kicked off server farms and stuff. It got— yeah. And that’s—

TUCKER CARLSON: Were you calling for violence?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Never once. No, like they would put in writing— it was the MeToo joke. That’s why they stopped even saying what it was, because it would be so obvious. Another one was, “David Hogg can’t tell me not to have guns. He can’t grow pubes.” They said I was sexualizing a child. That was what I got banned from Twitter for.

TUCKER CARLSON: Meanwhile, that child was trying to change federal law.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Well, yeah, because I know liability shields— they use children to try and do their thing and say, “You can’t attack a child.” And my whole thing was, you’re not a man. Like, you can’t grow— if I’d said chest hair, they would have said I was sexualizing a chest. They have to just demonize, demonize. And so my whole thing was, why are people believing this? And it’s because they just wanted— they were dependent, right? They just didn’t want to lose that drip.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And so that’s why I think guys like us have been kind of set free.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, yes.

Set Free by Cancellation

OWEN BENJAMIN: It was like, “Don’t throw me in the briar patch,” right? Yeah. And I didn’t know it at the time, but I realized that I didn’t lose everything. It’s like an illusion. And so then it became like, don’t let anything—

TUCKER CARLSON: You actually did lose everything. You lost everything in your world.

OWEN BENJAMIN: I got kicked out of a gay bar. Yeah. Imagine it’s like, “Oh, you can’t be at our gay bar anymore.” And I’m like, but that’s the only bar I know. I mean, I’m not pumped everyone’s gay, but that’s my— Johnny’s in the corner and the jukebox, Wham! I’m not a big fan, but I’ll dance to it. And then they kick you out. And you’re like, oh my God, I can just go somewhere else. I go to another bar where they’re not gay. And then I realize I don’t want to go to a bar, right? Because that’s the trap.

That’s why the despair— I’m always like, “Guys, they’re doing an illusion. It’s wizardry. They’re not winning because it’s the Wizard of Oz.” Like, it’s this big illusion and it’s not real.

TUCKER CARLSON: How did you—

OWEN BENJAMIN: Okay, because I had to. I had to.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, no, you could have gone crazy.

OWEN BENJAMIN: I love my life. I love my son. Like, I felt duty. Yeah, that was it. Because I think about that, I’m like, because that does sound pretty cool, like, that I did that. But it’s like, and I’m not that guy. I’m not like the guy that’s first on TikTok, or I’m not that ambitious with the new thing or anything. I can autistically focus on piano scales and comedy. And it was because I couldn’t let them down. And that actually gave me a lot of love because I was like, I was a bit nihilistic, never despairish, but I didn’t know what I deserved. But my son, I was like, he’s good.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

Overcoming Despair and Finding Community

OWEN BENJAMIN: And then I was like, we were all that, right? And then I started— my life started changing. I was like, I’m not like a virus on the planet. Like, I’m not, you know, like, we’re like stewards of this. But like, all the— so many biblical principles I saw in reality happening. I’m like, he’s good. And as he kept growing, and then my other sons, I’m like, they don’t start bad. I’m like, he’s not hurting any. I’m like, and so my protect— I’m very protective of others way more than myself.

TUCKER CARLSON: Me too.

OWEN BENJAMIN: But I’ve learned to be more protective of myself. Like, I’m feeding my dog organic food and I’m eating goyslop. And I’m like, why? I just spent more on my dog’s food. I’m like, because I’m the guy that’s trying to protect. I’m like, but we’re good too. And then I just— that’s what did it. And I am smart and work hard. So like, because I was motivated by loving them, I could just innovate, you know? Because if it wasn’t for that, I would just—

TUCKER CARLSON: But how do you continue to think clearly and not become obsessed with hatred toward the people who are oppressing you?

OWEN BENJAMIN: The community that was forming around me too, like people that I was meeting that were so cool. You know, like, I’d be at these Hollywood parties where everyone’s famous and everyone’s just trying to find a drug or something, you know? And I’m like, I’m seeing these musicians. I thought music sucked. And I’m meeting these musicians that are awesome. They just are fixing cabinets, or they’re like, you know, they’re like normal guys, but the art didn’t die.

And then I realized after being kicked out of theaters and clubs that comedy can exist anywhere. And I was like, starting to see that the world’s— I’d still get pissed off. The thing that would piss me off the most are despair guys.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Like, as I’m trying to help, they’re trying to tear me down. Like, I’m not just going to go at, like, a guy for being a sad little gay guy or something, right? But, like, if they’re trying to— like, if I’m trying to, like, rescue a drowning guy and they’re like, he’s drowning him, I’m like, you have to stop now. I’m now attacking you, you know?

TUCKER CARLSON: Were people doing that to you?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. And I thought it was on the— just going to be the left with hate speech. And then I’d see people, like, in you know, like people like, like a Nick Fuentes or guys like that, like they secretly go at people that try to inspire.

TUCKER CARLSON: Like, explain that.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Because people sometimes would wonder, like, why are you attacking him? You know, like, what are you? Are you a Jew? Are you a secret Jew? You know, I’m like, no, he’s spreading despair. Like he’s saying—

TUCKER CARLSON: Fuentes is—

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, like that having a family’s gay, don’t work out, you know. And then he would like come at me and like make fun of me for saying get goats and grow a tomato, you know. And I’m like, man, like, stop with that because it affects people. Like, people that will— because you’ll say base things. Like, Fuentes will be really funny and like, yes, you know, Jesus and all this stuff. And young kids are dying to hear that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And then he’ll be like, yeah, and how hot are like cats? And I’m, you know, I’m just like, dude. And so that would bother— like, that bothers me, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Why do you think he does that?

OWEN BENJAMIN: I don’t even want to know at this point. I just— I don’t know.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you think it’s an intentional— and maybe not just him, others too.

Victim Consciousness and the Primary Lies

OWEN BENJAMIN: But it’s a behavior. That’s where I’m at now, is I’m like, I don’t know who gives orders. I don’t know what it is. It’s just like God made a mistake. Yeah, right. It’s victim consciousness. It’s like, I deserve more than I currently have.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: That’s all it is. And it’s like, whether it’s you want to be taller or less gay. I’m just kidding.

TUCKER CARLSON: You know what I mean? No, no, you may be right. Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And that’s why in the book I talk about the primary lies that lead to the rest of the lies. And so, like, you’re okay who you are. Like, “God didn’t make a mistake” is a fundamental. Yeah. Because that belief allows people to believe all these other horrible things. And so that’s one reason I don’t have hatred, because everybody, including people that can be annoying to me as I’m trying to do my work, I’m like, you’re only doing this because you think you’re not enough, but I can’t fix you with a funny song. You know what I mean?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: I’m like, you’re okay. Because I’ll do a joke making fun of short guys getting shot out of a cannon or something, right? And there’s a type that’s like, and I’m like, dude, you’re enough, man. I’m trying to release the stress. So I’ll do tall jokes. I’ll make fun of being tall and trying to help that. And that will usually help with insecurities, identity, all that stuff.

And it’s like some people are just like, they double down, double down, double down. Where they’re like, no, I deserve more. And I would see that in myself. And that’s when you really grow, where you’re like, I deserve to be on this platform. Like, they wronged me. And then I started being like, well, they built it. I didn’t build YouTube. You know, it’s like I was a guest on there. And I started getting like way more humble than I normally am because that was how I was surviving, you know?

And then I’m like, well, I’m American. I’m going to use a post office box, right? That’s ours. And I got really into the post office. Come on. No, that was my sacred cow. Like, and people would make fun of the post office. I’d be like, how dare you? Like, I’m like, rain, rain and sleet and snow. They’re delivering the mail. Because I’d get thousands of letters, right? Because they couldn’t censor it. They couldn’t censor reality. And so I was like, I’m protecting the post office. And that’s so absurd that my sacred cow was— it was like kind of funny. But I was like, I’d really get mad if people had attacked the post office. I’m like, FedEx has terms and conditions. They can search it.

TUCKER CARLSON: But the post office is the last pure thing.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. And it was found— it was foundational. It’s like, it’s so important that people can just write a letter with a cheap stamp. You know, now I communicate with mail and think about if everything just collapses, which it like has to at this point. I mean, the lies are— it’s Tower of Babel.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, of course.

OWEN BENJAMIN: It’s like, imagine if people have— during COVID I said, know 10 people within 10 miles. I’d give people actionable things like know people, just like know your neighbors, right? Like know where they live and be able to say hi, like borrow something, work together. Like, because one thing I learned about being in rural and in the country is people are an asset. In the city, like they start thinking, look at all these people, they’re crowding everything.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes, people. Yes, that’s true.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And where I live, it’s like, yes, a person to help me dig this insane ditch. And then I was like, oh my God, we can make anything. And it was just a very beautiful thing.

Moving to Idaho and Rejecting Debt

TUCKER CARLSON: So you go from, you’re living in your wife’s town, her family’s town.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. And then COVID happened and I would like have public— I would try to be funny about it. You know, “masks are for criminals and perverts. Which one are you, lady?” Like stuff like that. But I would get— I didn’t want another hostility thing. I’m like, this is my wife’s town. Like, I’m not going to be the guy. Because I wouldn’t ever wear a mask. I’m like, then before you know it, like, they figured this out in like camps and stuff. It’s like how you break somebody. Hop on one foot. Like, let me just put a little patch on your eye. Every yes is closer and closer. That’s how sin works, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes, that is true.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And if I was innocent, it would have been okay. Like, people that thought they were scared to wear masks, I don’t think it affected them as much. But I knew exactly. Yes. That’s why a lot of people that feel guilt. I’m like, but you didn’t know though. I did know. It’s a burden sometimes where I’m like, I know what the mask is and I know this psychological thing. And if you didn’t, like, you thought you were helping people, which is actually fine. You know what I mean?

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. But like, so we go to Idaho because I had done a show in Sandpoint and I love the people. And I started looking at areas that weren’t wearing masks. Because I was like, this probably has low debt.

TUCKER CARLSON: What’s the connection?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Right? Because I think the debt causes the fear. Right? Because there’s going to be a percentage of the population that doesn’t want to wear a mask. They’re just not— I know a ton of people that don’t care about colds and stuff. Like, I don’t— so it’s like they don’t wear seatbelts. Like, that guy’s not wearing a mask. Like, you know what I mean? And so why is everyone wearing a mask? It’s because they don’t want to lose their job, because they have a mortgage, because they have kids in college, because it’s that whole train.

And so when you reverse engineer it, it starts with debt with interest because you have to pay that with the job and you’re convinced you have no other abilities in life than this one thing. And so if you see people without a mask, they’re probably productive and not in debt. And some people with masks might actually believe it, which is fine, but I needed to see a percentage.

And so I saw that area and there was just these 10 acres with a barn, with a little corner apartment. And me and my whole family just moved there because I couldn’t afford a house without debt. Because when I got kicked off Airbnb, I had to sell that house. So now I had money, right? Like, it’s all a blessing. So we go there, you know, and now we can have cows. We had alpacas and goats.

TUCKER CARLSON: And I just find— if I ask you to pause— it’s interesting that as you get deplatformed and basically take all your money away, take your source of income away, you’ve got less money.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you’re more committed not to taking on debt.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, because I saw that was why. Because I was like feeling very betrayed. Yeah. And so I was like, why is that guy like, am I so stupid that I thought all these people were awesome? And they’re like, I’m like, they’re just lying because I know myself. Like, I don’t have the hate they were saying or else I couldn’t do comedy, right? Like, if you’re mad, someone said— I think it was Norm— you can’t do an impression of someone you hate.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes, that’s right.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. Because it’s like you’re trying to dig at it versus, like, the empathy required.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s so true. So true. I would always tell my reporters, you can’t cover anybody you hate or you’re sleeping with. Anything that obscures your vision to that extent, the emotion makes you a bad observer.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. And I had to constantly do self-checks with that because for me, it’s just the work ethic thing in me. I just don’t want to fail at my job because if I hate it, it’s not funny because I’m, like, trying to do something versus just letting things happen with comedy. Like, the moment is the important part.

Debt as a Tool of Control

TUCKER CARLSON: So you realize the people who betrayed you betrayed you in part because they were in debt.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: And they were servants of larger powers.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. It’s like what traps a lot of soldiers. It’s like, I want to defend my mother, right? It’s like these good instincts. Like, I want to provide for my family. I have to pay this thing, blah, blah. And so my thing was, like, live way under your means, and then you’re, like, totally free.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right?

The Spell of Money and Real Wealth

OWEN BENJAMIN: Because I’d see these people that, like, one of my best friends up there drives a concrete truck, you know, just hourly wage, has like 6 kids, totally happy. He just slowly built his house, owns his little piece of land. Like, you can totally do it.

TUCKER CARLSON: How is he happy with an hourly wage? Don’t you have to be rich to be happy?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Exactly. Exactly. That’s the scam.

TUCKER CARLSON: What do you mean a scam?

OWEN BENJAMIN: The scam, the spell of money. It’s not even money. It’s currency. It’s like money is gold and silver in the Constitution, right? So it’s like, it’s like all these word swap outs, like money, legal tender is not a dollar. That’s a debt note.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Right. So, and if you can print the token that says you’re a good person and you don’t have control of printing it, then it’s a rigged game. And so if you’re accumulating actual wealth, which is, you know, trust, that’s why it was called a bank and trust. Trust is wealth. When you can have that fluid economy where, you know, you’ll have, like, you can just quickly move and change and grow without having to constantly validate every line of every contract because you don’t trust each other. That’s what creates poverty.

And so I’m looking at what I consider wealth, which is like land, morality, children, respect. And then craftsmen can just build these beautiful things that in LA would be like a billion zillion dollars. That table that you just made with like a chainsaw and polish would be like 9 grand to like a gay L.A. guy.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Like, literally, I thought about it. I’m like, should I bring this stuff to L.A.? I’m like, I don’t even want to go back. But like, the amount of wealth from skills was insane. And so I’m having this like— and meanwhile, online, people are like, oh, he’s a cult leader. That was the whole thing. It’s like, it’s a cult if anybody supports you. When you’re not in the mainstream, it’s got to be a cult. I’m like, why? Because people like me.

Building a Community After Being Canceled

TUCKER CARLSON: How are you still reaching people?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Well, I like—

TUCKER CARLSON: What are the mechanics of continuing to broadcast when you’ve been canceled to the—

OWEN BENJAMIN: So I kept just making new accounts on Instagram and stuff. Like, I’d just make a new account. I’d get up, the number would go up, they’d wipe it. I’d just make another account. People would all— it built the community, and I didn’t realize it because they’d all be like, how are we all going to stay in touch for wherever Owen is next? So they start meeting each other like that. It all backfires.

So then I make my own app, the Bertari Times app, where we just build our own app. And it’s ironic because I have more censorship than anywhere. It’s just the right censorship. There’s no swearing, there’s no arguing, there’s no like attack. It’s just the good, the true, the beautiful. It’s like family businesses. I’m like, that’s what censorship should be. It’s not censoring the truth about a spell.

And so people join there and we start having meetups. That’s why they called me a cult leader, because people are actually meeting up with each other and we’re having a good time physically. I said physically, because I kept reverse engineering wizard spells. I’m like, they want to make reality digital. Let’s make digital reality, because it always goes both directions.

TUCKER CARLSON: Interesting.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: What are the mechanics of that? Like, what does that mean?

OWEN BENJAMIN: It just means like, where did you meet? We would just have meetups. So during COVID right in the beginning, I saw how they were shutting down all the clubs, all the theaters. That’s why the best revenge is just God’s revenge. Just let it happen.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Like, all those comics that were calling me a man of hate, there were a lot of work that, you know, it’s like all the clubs cancel. Like, everywhere that canceled me, they all were shut down for like 2 years. And that’s when I was like, I can’t do that. Like, that’s just the natural cycle of God’s plan will always make it way more revengey, but it’s not like bitter. You’re like, whoa, right? That dude that sold out. I’m like, the devil hates his servants. Like, you can’t win that game.

TUCKER CARLSON: The devil hates his servants.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And it’s not about agreeing with me at all. It’s about like, are we both attempting to find the truth, which is outside of our own will? Yes. Right.

TUCKER CARLSON: And that’s the distinction between a narcissist and a normal, healthy person — do you acknowledge that the truth exists outside of you?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: The truth remains constant no matter what you do or say.

Truth, Narcissism, and Emotional Balance

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. We don’t decide the truth. We can have a subjective— I understand why people say “my truth.” It’s like, based on my upbringing, my interpretation of the elephant as a blind man. Right. But we didn’t make it. And so narcissism even is a coping mechanism of trauma. So I couldn’t hate them. I’m like, why are they like this?

TUCKER CARLSON: I agree.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And it was because of— I can’t let myself get too sympathetic where my nervous system is like, I want to help you, because then you get trapped. But my empathy is like, oh, it’s just really important to be good parents because somebody made you not trust the flow. Someone hurt you.

TUCKER CARLSON: How did you get so emotionally balanced? How did you get this much perspective?

OWEN BENJAMIN: I’m going to tell my wife that and she will laugh. I’m going to be like, Tucker asked me how I got so emotionally balanced.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, but it’s funny because I just know a lot of people who’ve been through variations of what you’ve been through and they don’t arrive where you arrived.

OWEN BENJAMIN: It’s funny, maybe because of my lack of balance in the moment, because that’s funny because of like, I can go in all directions.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: I think I allow myself to do that. I don’t create the scar tissue so I can actually stay stable because I just allow myself to feel something and then go through it, you know, versus holding on to it. And then, you know, that’s what narcissism is. It’s like, how do we create a delusion bubble to justify this thing that I have to hold on to because I’m afraid?

TUCKER CARLSON: There’s fear at the center of it.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Fear at the center of it. Yeah. Because imagine if you’re like, you know, there’s truth and there’s force, right? There’s like, if you have a— so someone comes in your room at night and beats you up randomly, you have to start thinking about how to control them, right? Like when you’re very young, you’re like, this world is vicious. I have to control things or else I will be hurt. Versus like, what did I learn from that beating? How do I grow to be— you know, right? There’s two roads.

And so I’m blessed that although my childhood had its challenges, I’ll always give respect to my parents for allowing me to have like a safe enough feeling where I didn’t get that scar tissue, you know? Because that’s awesome. Just because I look at people and I’m like, just let it flow, man, it’ll be okay. And they’re like, whenever I let things happen, I feel so much pain. But they don’t know it anymore because they’re calloused. They can’t feel it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why do we call narcissism narcissist after narcissist? Like, it’s self-love. It’s not self-love.

Love, Lust, and the Meaning of Marriage

OWEN BENJAMIN: It’s not love. They do the same trick with the gay stuff. That’s why I like that you say sodomy, because love, we become friends. I love Tug. I love him so much. I’m going to encourage him not to engage inside of me, right? It’s like, that’s not love. That’s a compulsion. That’s an act.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Like love. Like, there were signs I saw that’s like, “love is love.” And that’s supposed to justify deviant sexual behavior. And it’s deviant because it causes damage. Like, I can define it. Like, it’s not because it’s not me, it’s because it causes damage. Like, people can’t consent to a level that they should. Or the two males, like, they’re reliving trauma. It’s about, like, I have male goats. Like, the sodomy is not love. It’s about dominance for a goat because that male is going to impregnate everybody, right? It’s like prison stuff. And so love is love. No, lust is not love.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Because I have lusts, right? I’ve had lusts. It’s like, that’s not love. I mean, love— sex can be very loving, but it’s kind of like gluttony and healthy eating. It’s like nobody— the great Norm Macdonald, my favorite stand-up of all time, he said, “Nobody’s ever said, I want to make love to your ass.” So true. It’s not loving.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, it’s not.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And so I didn’t even see it until it went to the kids. That’s when I was like, I see it now. I was like, the They Live glasses. Because before I was like, yeah, because I don’t like bullies. So I’m like, who’s going to tell two gay guys they can’t have a good life? Like, I— because I was thinking they were the bully. And then I started experiencing marriage, and I experienced what the male, female bring in, child. I’m like, oh, that’s not marriage. They just want to discount it like a department store. Like, what is this?

And you’re not helping them by saying it’s marriage, right? Like, to say, oh yeah, that’s marriage. No, it’s not. Marriage is about creating life. Like, even if you don’t create life, like, you can be married and not have kids together, but like, that union is like the most special thing in the world. Yes, it is. Yeah. It’s like the three with— you have God, man, woman, man, woman, child. It’s like this beautiful thing. And I’m sorry, it’s not going to come out of an ass.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, I know.

The Power of Vulgarity and the Charge of Words

OWEN BENJAMIN: And I know that sounds comedically vulgar, and that’s when people get mad, but it’s because it’s so honest. And vulgarity comes from Vulgate, which means of the people. And a lot of people can’t afford to speak in that erudite way where no one feels anything, where it’s like, oh, someone can indulge in a, you know, like they speak in a way where you don’t feel it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Versus people have jobs where machines are loud and they’re stressed and they’re like, they just say it as fast and as clearly as possible.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And it spikes emotion, which is good for comedy. Like, I’m not going to say any big words here out of respect because I don’t want to spike anyone’s emotions. Right. But in my craft of comedy, that is— it’s like a note on a piano. Like, that will help me do a joke because words have a charge. It’s just electricity. It doesn’t have an intention. It’s like in spells, they call it a sigil where you charge a logo like a Nike swoosh. You put all these images to it. So when people see it, they feel something.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And words are like that too. So you have this raw energy that is released with a word, and every culture has a different word. Think about it. There’s languages we don’t speak, and if you say that word, right? Oh, I’ve done it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

Honor Culture, Sacred Boundaries, and the Meaning of Prayer

OWEN BENJAMIN: Or they think it’s super funny. Like, I have Russian friends. It’s like, galuboy, galuboy, nyeka chui, glaksa boy. It means blue boy, blue boy, we don’t want to play with you, which is like gay boy. And I didn’t know what it meant, but my Russian friend had me figure it out and they’ll die laughing because they know I have no idea what it means.

But in their world, like, that would cause— I’ll give you an example. In college, I go into this dude’s dorm room and there’s a giant swastika on the wall, right? And I’m like, who’s going to tell him he’s like a brown guy, right? And it turns out it’s like a Hindu symbol. So it’s like the swastika is in like every culture. It’s like the Big Dipper going around Polaris. And he’s like, “Oh, hey, my friend.” I’m like, “Dude, you got a swastika on your wall.” And he’s like, “Oh yeah, the great, you know, Shiva, whatever it is.” And I’m like, oh my God, that would mean something totally different to Ben Shapiro, right?

It’s a charge. Like, you’ve been programmed to feel something with that. And that’s why different cultures have different words. Like, in LA, from my culture, that’s very— blue collar is a step up for most of my friends, you know? So it’s like, these words don’t cause this reaction, right? And so they’d be like, “How dare you?” I’m like, “I don’t know where you’re from, man. I’m trying to be nice. Like, what’s the word I should say?” And then they’re like, “I don’t know.” I’m like, “I don’t know either.” So that’s why the comedian discharges this stress.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: So that’s why I will use a very intense word, because I’m like, let’s figure this out. Discharge the stress, because wizards need that emotion. Like, use a word. Like, imagine telling Alex Jones he’s not a patriot. Like, that would work on him. He’d be like, “No, patriot. Are you kidding me? I saw Male Vitality.” He gets so freaked out by that because he’s like, “Patriot, patriot,” right?

And he would not get mad at— like, I’ve done this to him. He has a great sense of humor. I’m like, “Hillary Clinton’s not— he’s not allowing you to have a proper erection. You’re going to need—” he dies laughing because it’s like, that’s what I mean. I’m like just riffing with him.

And so like, for him, that word would mean a lot. So like, let’s say “tolerant.” Like, you tell a certain person you’re not tolerant, they’d be like— I’m like, “Tolerant, the T word,” right? And so, because it’s charged in their world, like, tolerant is like, you have to be so tolerant. In my world, that’s called permission, right? It’s like, you don’t get to violate my space. Honor culture. Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: What is that? Can you define that? Honor culture?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. It’s kind of like the boundary issue is a big cultural divide where it’s like tolerance is— this is why I had a hard time at first with forgiveness. The turn the other cheek stuff, because I viewed it as codependence and permission.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: When it’s not, it’s just— forgiveness is more about yourself, and it’s the broad— it doesn’t mean you permit the behavior.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, but you’re forgiving and you’re releasing it from yourself.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Exactly. And that was huge because I used to be like, “Forgiveness? No, you don’t let these people—” And so a lot of that culture does not like boundaries at all. So it’s like, wherever there’s a boundary, something sacred to somebody, they have to cross it.

Like, I don’t make fun of people’s religions directly. It’s like, if you tell me something sacred, I will respect that. If you don’t know that it’s a— if it’s CrossFit and you don’t know it’s your religion, you’re about to find out, right? Because it’s like an idol that people are developing that I don’t know. But if someone’s like, “Dude, this is sacred to me,” I’m like, “No problem.” Sacred to me, as long as someone’s aware of it. But a lot of other people, like that other culture, it’s like sacred means hit it. Like beautiful, right? Family, like cross those boundaries.

TUCKER CARLSON: So an honor culture is a culture that takes those boundaries seriously.

God, Man, Government, and the Inversion of Hierarchy

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. Private is very important because in the honor culture it’s God, man, government, corporation. There’s a hierarchy. And there’s an inversion of that where it’s corporation, government, man, and then God is money or dollars. So it’s completely the opposite. The corporations rule the government, the government rules the man, when in reality that isn’t it at all. The government is the management of man’s declaration to God’s mercy.

You obviously know all this and it’s like, so you can see it so clearly. And that is what I learned just from trying to do standup comedy. It’s like, that’s why I’m so hopeful oddly, because just committing to what you’re doing, because it’s prayer to do anything good, right? It’s like a carpenter, someone working at a gas station. Like, I used to be a janitor, and I would take so much pride in that thing that I don’t even care about.

TUCKER CARLSON: Like, it’s prayer to do anything good.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: So there are all kinds of— throughout the Bible, all kinds of commands phrased differently, but all with the same message, which is pray without ceasing. There’s a famous one in Paul’s epistles, but there’s a bunch of them. What does that mean, pray without ceasing? How can you go about your daily life? How can you earn a living? How can you feed your children if you’re constantly in prayer? And maybe that’s getting toward the answer. It is a form of prayer to do something good and beautiful.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, because a fish doesn’t know it’s wet, right? So a lot of, I think, Americans and certain Western cultural people don’t realize what it’s like to not have respect for the good, the true, the beautiful, symmetry, beauty, like something that exalts the soul, right?

And so if you’re contributing to that, that’s prayer. That’s worshiping God, because that’s outside of us. Like, that symmetry, that thing that just shows you, like, the laugh of a child. Like, when I was showing you the pics of my camp or, like, the farm, you’re like, yeah. So many people would be like, “Dude, haven’t you heard of a grocery store?” Like, they don’t see it where it’s like the perfection of a tomato growing with 100 seeds in it that can grow 10,000 tomatoes. Like, to me, that’s prayer.

TUCKER CARLSON: Or the paths you built through the woods as a path builder. I appreciated yours are way nicer than mine, but the care you took to build paths, walking paths through tree growth, through the woods— I mean, I don’t know how long that took you to do that, but that was very— those were not— they were more than utilitarian.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: You weren’t just clearing brush out of the way.

Building Something Beautiful as an Act of Hope

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. No, I’ve just— I act like if I get down or if I feel, you know, things can be stressful. There’s so many lies happening. Like, there’s psyops constantly, and it’s like— we joke that I have toil.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Because if I’m building something beautiful, I feel hope immediately. Like, I just start feeling hope and I’m sweating. And that’s in the Bible. That’s why I keep telling people just to have a garden, even if it’s on your windowsill. It’s like, because it says, you know, so many of these metaphors are about wheat and chaff and goats and sheep. And it’s like, you know them by their fruits.

Like, think about tasting someone’s wine, like Thomas Jefferson or these guys. Like, you taste wine. You have to run like an awesomely moral society to have the vines grow and time it with the wood. The wood maker has to make the barrel and having the impulse control to not drink it right away. And so you taste the logos of it, right? So it’s like the wine represents— same with the bread.

That’s why, because I went through a period where I was like, I don’t— flesh and blood, this sounds a little dark. And then you realize in context, people were actually eating people at the time. And bread is like the flesh of all creation that like man can with God’s creation make something so beautiful. It’s like, don’t eat people, eat bread. And same with like the blood is of the grape becomes the wine. And I was like, “Oh my God, it’s actually awesome.” And so I got really into like— I have grapes. I don’t think I’d make very good wine yet, but I’m working on it.

Life on the Farm in Idaho

TUCKER CARLSON: So you wind up in Idaho.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Buying this spot, this little farm. And how do you keep working from there? How do you do that?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Well, me and Vox started Unauthorized.TV. We keep getting kicked off payment processors. It’s this whole behind—

TUCKER CARLSON: To this day.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, we’ve gotten better at it, though. Like, there’s been a release a bit. I think that because that’s the thing, it doesn’t take a lot of people to push back. Not even to do anything to them, just to say no. Like, the real N-word is no, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And so, if there’s just— because resistance in a light is what makes the light. You need that resistance. Like, what stops— what kind of slows down the voltage releases the light. So we just keep saying onward, you know? It’s like, we get— no one’s having more fun than us, right? It’s like, persistence is fertile. Like, just build it. Like, I keep flipping all these slogans, and we just keep rocking and things just keep falling into place.

So I get kicked off a payment processor again, so stressed out. One of my buddies, the guy I was making fun of for the jazz, awesome guy. He’s like, “Let’s record an album,” because he’s a sound genius. So I record a classical album. We put it out, it goes on the Billboard for like classical music. People are like, “Can you teach me?” I start teaching piano. So it’s like that starts being my job for a bit where I’m just teaching piano. I’m still doing podcasts and comedy. And I’m just like, it just kept working out. And I’m like, this is flow. This is what I think people mean with spirit.

TUCKER CARLSON: Where did your wife have faith the whole time?

Faith, Family, and Facing the Darkness

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. Yeah. Like, times when I was spiraling, there’d be times when I was like— this one time. So I have this farm and this orchard and these animals, and I’m working so hard, and I feel like I’m protecting my family. And that can even be an idol, right? Because I’m for sure, that’s a hard one to see.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, I’ve had this.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. And so I’m getting a legal, you know, they’re doing some stuff and I’m like, “Oh, I could lose everything.” And so I’m getting down because I’m like, “I won’t be able to provide for my family.” And Amy’s like, “We used to live in the corner of that barn. We could live in a van.” And she’s like, “You wouldn’t have to milk the cow anymore.”

And I’m like, I think this is why I’m emotionally stable. I will say the things I think guys bury. I’m like, “You’d still love me.” And she’s like, “Owen, I don’t love you for your pear tree.” And I was like— because what I loved was my family. And so all these other things I think are protecting, but it’s just fruit. And so as soon as I made that shift where I’m like, “Oh yeah, we could have a whole adventure with something else,” the darkness went away again. It was like all these things that are threatening me, like something that opens up.

And I mean, that happened. They were sending CPS to my house, right? Which is like every father’s complete nightmare.

TUCKER CARLSON: On what grounds?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Not like the most absurd lies ever. Like, this is like a lot of the darkness type vibe. They use institutional weakness to let— yeah, you know, I do. So, and I get it, I have a bunch of people and friends in law enforcement. Like, just a claim anonymously, like, they have to look into it now. I now realize how much of a non-threat it is, but I’m not aware of CPS. I don’t know how CPS works. I’m not from that world. And so just the threat of that, I start pacing, I’m stressed, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, dude, I prayed.

TUCKER CARLSON: The threat of having your children taken away. I mean, come on.

The Power of Prayer and Fatherhood

OWEN BENJAMIN: I still remember that prayer. Actually, it was on my knees, praying. And the prayer was like, just give me the strength. And my wife just kept going, “But you’re a good father.” And I’m like, I know, but what if? And she just kept going, “But you’re a good father.” And I’m like, but if they—

And then I just started believing. And then I realized that I’m just here to take care of my kids, dude. This is when stuff gets intense. I’m like, they’re gods, right? I’m like, I’m honored to be their caretaker while I’m here. And I was freed from that spell because I was like, I’m the one who provides and protects. Yes, right.

And so every time these horrifying things kept happening, I’m like, oh my God. And then it again just went away. And they were like, oh, we’re really sorry. Because what happens is my fear could have triggered more and more and more. Right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: That’s why Jesus kept saying, “Don’t be afraid, don’t be afraid, don’t be afraid.” Because like, hey, why are you here? Who sent you? And so those illusions, spells— and that’s why I’m like, the more I learned, the more I was like, I want to show this to people. Because when you’re given stuff like gifts and stuff, you have to be like, how can I? Because I see so many people falling for this stuff and I’m like, this is how they do it. It’s all perception management. Like Wizard of Oz. Wizard of Oz was such a truth drop. I think it’s about the dollar.

The Wizard of Oz as a Truth Drop

TUCKER CARLSON: What does that mean?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Like, follow the yellow brick road to the green place where the wizard is lying. It’s gold. A golden road, right? Yeah. It’s like the original slippers were silver. You click the silver slippers and you go back to Kansas. Meanwhile, the greenback is like, rawr. And it’s really just an old graveler behind a little curtain.

And then when he’s like, “Here, you’re smart. Here’s a square for your head.” It shows you how they do it. It’s all the approval. Like, “You’re brave. Here’s a medal.” That world is of these little trinkets that make you think you’re proud or you’re brave. But it was like such a truther movie. And then it inflates the balloon. Inflation takes him away and he’s like, “I don’t know how it works.” And he flies off.

TUCKER CARLSON: How does it work?

OWEN BENJAMIN: I’m not fully— I just, the principle I know, I don’t know the details. I’ve also learned not to make a ton of claims.

TUCKER CARLSON: Me too.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Because I’ll see a lie because I don’t know.

TUCKER CARLSON: Actually, in a lot of cases I can spot a lie. Yeah, me too.

OWEN BENJAMIN: But then I’ll be like, oh, it must be this.

TUCKER CARLSON: This is the 9/11 problem. It’s the Building 7 problem. I have literally no idea what that— I mean, I’ve heard a lot of things. All I know is your version is a lie. That’s all.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, all I know is how much Ladle.tv is a month.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

Something From Nothing: The Spell of Usury

OWEN BENJAMIN: So yeah, the fundamental is something from nothing is a spell. Right. So I always watch for that. Something from nothing. Usury. Yeah. Like cocaine is biological usury. You get your energy now, pay it back with interest. Yeah, exactly. Like virtue status.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s true.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Like virtue status as a Christian. And then everyone’s like, “Oh, he’s a great guy.” And then they are cowards with everything. Like, yeah, usury. And then you’re like, “I paid you virtue earlier, you know what I mean?” It’s like, no, you have to do it. And then the more you’re actually living it, the more it’s like fundamental wealth. It doesn’t get pulled away.

Because, I mean, read the Old Testament. It just keeps— it’s like, ah, here we go. Something for nothing. Oh boy, not again. We’re sorry. Oh boy, something for nothing. Oh, we’re really sorry. It’s just that lesson over and over.

And I see it in myself where I kept being okay with people. I’m like, they don’t owe me anything. Because I used to have a problem with credit, like with my jokes. I’m like, I need credit for that joke. I wrote it 6 years before that. And I start being like, the word is credit. What does that mean? Who am I getting credit from? Right.

And then, because the prayer is doing it because it’s good. And my ego is like— because I don’t even want fame. But I do have a thing with respect, like having other people in my field respect me for being good at my thing. Right. So I have that. And I was like, no, but I wrote these big jokes that these other comedians— I mean, people have made tons of videos about it, like side by side. Like they just started taking my bits like vultures.

And then I was like, I don’t need credit from— it’s like Field of Dreams. Is that why you did it? Right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: It’s like, did you do it for credit? From who? No, you did it because it’s the right joke. It’s good. It really is. And then I’m like, oh my God, that’s where all the power is. And then I wanted to tell everybody, and then people would say that I was full of hate, but it’s okay.

What Brings Joy

TUCKER CARLSON: So what brings you joy now? In your life?

OWEN BENJAMIN: That’s the thing. A ton of stuff brings me joy. Tons of things. That’s why I think the biblical thing is like— and by the way, that’s not a religious book or political book. I don’t go in those realms because I’m not a theological expert or anything, but I have lived a lot of these things. So it’s like the joy of a child, but wise. All that stuff is real. You get the joy of a child again where you’re like dancing with your kids and you feel better than doing Carnegie Hall.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. Or cocaine.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Right, exactly. Yeah. It’s like, are you sure you don’t want to be up till 5 in the AM with strangers coming up with bad business ideas? Yeah. Like seeing my wife— I’ve been to, I’m sure you’ve been to all these restaurants with the best food in the world. My wife, like with butter that I milk— like her making it, it tastes so much better. Like just simple little things like yogurt and maple syrup. And it’s just like, yeah.

Like, the Muslims say that God will present you heaven that looks like heaven, but it’s hell. And hell that looks like heaven.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And I was like, man, that’s intense. And just saying that, like, people will be like, “Oh, that means you love terrorism.” I’m like, what? No, it’s a true thing. They can’t see that either because they’re so of a lie, they’re so hiding that it’s like, no, that’s just a true thing, though. We can all spot a true thing, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. Instantly you can. It sounds different.

Spotting Truth and the Danger of Little Lies

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. Like, I could quote Hinduism— a lot of it makes no sense. I don’t like castes. A lot of it makes no sense to me. And some of this stuff, I’m like, ooh, that’s really interesting. Because it’s true, right? You can feel it.

And the sad part is— and this is when I got a lot more chill— because I’m like, they can’t feel that. Like, that’s sad. And so I remember that when I feel disgust when they’re doing their antics. It’s almost like they’re blind, where you’re like mad at a blind person.

And that’s why I’m terrified of even little lies, because that’s, to me, the worst case scenario. You start these little lies— there’s lies that everyone can do, like not wicked people. Like, you don’t want to hurt someone’s feelings. You want to avoid punishment. And then before you know it, you have to back up those lies, and then you become so exhausted.

I think demon possession stuff happens when you’re super exhausted and sad. Right? So your bandwidth is getting run down. You’re like, all these lies, you’re just keeping going, you’re spinning the plates. And then you’re just like, I don’t want to— there’s a lot of people I think that are just, they left their cockpit. They’re like, nah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And that’s why I try to give people advice to give them more energy. Like I’m always like, after listening to me, I hope you feel more energy than drained. Because having that energy keeps— I think keeps a lot of bad spirits out.

Jazz, Bitcoin, and the Problem of Transgression

TUCKER CARLSON: Before I forget, you said something at the outset that I’ve been thinking about. You said it last night but I didn’t fully understand it. You said that you’re opposed to jazz because it breaks the rules. Now, you’re a classically trained pianist. What does that mean?

OWEN BENJAMIN: It’s a behavior. So it’s like, for example, when Bitcoin was presented to me I didn’t like the behavior that they’re making dollars from it, right? When they’re like, “Dude, you can make tons of—” I’m like, I thought you’re replacing dollars. Let’s get on the same boat here. If you want to replace dollars, stop valuing it in dollars and chasing it and bragging about all your dollars. Right.

And so the behavior of jazz is like, “Oh, this is what sounds beautiful. Let’s break it.” And that’s why I don’t think Bitcoin’s evil because a tool can’t be evil. But that behavior is evil. Like, I can’t say jazz is evil. It’s the culture of— because I understand that maybe there’s something about it that I’m not understanding, but the— the idea that transgression is good is the problem.

TUCKER CARLSON: Transgression against what?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Against the symmetry of music. That might be subjective, but I don’t think it is.

TUCKER CARLSON: I didn’t know that there was symmetry in music.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, like Canon in D, where you have— so I think it’s literal. So you have the waves, like dissonance versus harmony. Yes, you can measure it, I think. So you have like, they’ve banned chords in the dark ages, which I think might have been the light ages.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m starting to suspect that.

OWEN BENJAMIN: It was called the devil’s chord. It’s this diminished chord that sounds so awful that they used to ban it. Like you couldn’t play the chord because it would bum people out. Right. Like the blues. There was a time when people were like, nah, this makes people feel bitchy and sad. It does have these effects on people.

And so when you’re like, Canon in D, every woman loves that for their wedding song because it’s like a perfectly symmetrical song.

And that’s how they manipulate with it. Get her a Lexus because the Toyota that’s the same car is not as much love. The music spells are nuts. Like, a lot of those songs that we all thought were just fun songs, especially Bruce Springsteen— it’s like, “Hey little girl, is your daddy home? I’m on fire.” It’s like, what? “Hey little girl, is your daddy home? He left you all alone. I’m on fire.” Right? You’re just like, dude, what is that? But the music makes you feel like it’s an honest guy singing about his day.

And you listen to the lyrics— that’s like one of the biggest spells. You have the music, there’s no continuity. That’s why I love songs with continuity where it’s like the music matches what the words are saying.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do certain chords have a universal effect? Can anyone— does any human from any culture respond the same way to certain sounds?

Music, Math, and the Nature of Sound

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, certain ratios. So like, I don’t know, some people claim that certain keys are better for different emotions, but it’s the same 12 notes that Bach, the Well-Tempered Clavier, because they had to make a decision. They used to tune a piano in one key, like this piano’s F. Yes, you could only play that key and everything else was horribly awful. So they made a few tiny concessions to make it so you could play in all these different keys because it’s actually a curve. So they’re all slightly different.

Bach, who’s the man, by the way, like that dude. Just the math, the symmetry, it’s insane. But he, you know, he— they developed the current scale. Like, there was, you know, Pythagoras had his own scale. Like, everyone had their own scale. And so some people claim that certain keys sound differently, but for me it’s just the ratio of how the chords are matched, because each one, like, relatively, you’re just moving every key, right?

These are the type of things I teach in the piano class, is more just like how it shapes with nature. You know, where it’s like the music of it is— it makes you feel certain things because the sound wave, if they’re dissonant, it’s like waves that get like this first. They’re all going in unison. Like when you see ballet, like they’re all going at the same thing, you feel harmonic. And so that’s why I think I can—

TUCKER CARLSON: When waves crash into each other, it makes you anxious.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. And it’s just so interesting. I don’t think most non-musicians experience music on a very shallow yet profound level.

OWEN BENJAMIN: It’s the universal language, though. That’s why I’m like, but you’re feeling it all the time in so many movies. Without the soundtrack, you wouldn’t feel the same way about them. And shows, laugh tracks, that shows the group agrees. Yes, the group agrees. So I guess I’m the weird one. And that’s not bad. That doesn’t make you stupid. Like, you’re trying to fit in. Like, that’s how a lot of cultures survived winters. Like, you didn’t want to be kicked out.

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course not.

Weaponizing Empathy and Knowing Your Enemy

OWEN BENJAMIN: And so that’s why just, you know, the Sun Tzu thing, like, know your enemy. And the enemy is, you know, the part of yourself that might covet it. But also just know that it’s possible to weaponize your empathy, you know?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, I’ve noticed.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And that’s why the more people do that, the better it is for everyone, you know? Because certain types of people shouldn’t be in charge. They don’t know how to handle it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: It’s like when the Red Sox first won and they still rioted.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Like, it’s like, no, you won. They’re like, yeah, but we burn cars. Like, we’re, you know, I’m like, 2004.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. I’ll never forget it.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. They were stuck because I was like, why are you not happy? You won. And, you know, there’s certain foreign policies like that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, the neocons were even madder at me when they got their war with Iran.

OWEN BENJAMIN: I know. And you’re trying to help them. You’re like, if you keep doing this, you can’t mathematically ever win. I know. And they’re like, yeah, that’s why it’s so interesting, because I know you’re like, the truth in any way, or even just the attempted truth will help the other person.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah.

Life in a Bubble and Engaging with the World

TUCKER CARLSON: What kind of people have you met since your life has changed so completely?

OWEN BENJAMIN: I’m in a bubble. I mean, everyone has like a ton of kids. I love my friends. That’s why I don’t relate to a lot of stuff, because my friends are like, I’m telling you, man, out there it’s crazy. No one has kids. Everyone’s depressed. They have orange hair. I’m like, oh man, that sounds awful. But where I live, it’s beautiful.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do you follow the drama in the world?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, because I feel like it’s my obligation to release stress with it because I’ve thought about never engaging in any of the nonsense. And I have people be like, dude, you helped me get off pills. Please do the thing you do because I’ll see the thing and I’ll make fun of it. And then there’s all this spiraling, and I’m like, I don’t have to do this. But people are like, no, that helps me laugh when I want to cry. And then over time, they start seeing how it works, you know?

The End of the Current Order

TUCKER CARLSON: Do you feel— so there’s a feeling I think a lot of people have that, like, the current order is coming to an end. I share that feeling.

OWEN BENJAMIN: But on what basis? Like, it’s always the assumptions. Like, what order, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, exactly. That’s why I’m asking you the question.

OWEN BENJAMIN: That cycle doesn’t look great, you know what I mean? Like, the global, you know, the reserve currency, all that stuff. Yeah. But it’s like change hurts, but don’t you kind of want to learn how to make a shoe? You know?

TUCKER CARLSON: No, but that’s— isn’t that the nightmare scenario where you actually have to do something, right?

OWEN BENJAMIN: But that’ll be the best thing. I mean, they’re clinging onto the thing that’s making them feel the fear about the thing. It’s like this awful loop, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, that’s always the case, isn’t it?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Happens to me all the time. Like, it’s not like I’m not aware of that. I just learned how that works.

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re afraid to stop doing the thing that’s making you miserable.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, because you’re like, oh, it’s all coming around in America. I’m like, dude, what are you afraid of? Like, the current system is saying it’s beautiful for someone, a child, to cut off their penis. Like, it’s all a plus, right? It’s like we don’t want something— like, something for nothing degrades this civilian. So it’s like, that’s the whole principle of something for nothing, where it’s like, if you can print your way out of sin, you don’t have to address it, right? And so it hurts, and it’s going to hurt, but it’s like the good hurt.

TUCKER CARLSON: And if you found that to be true in your own personal—

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, because it’s also just faith. Like, could I be wrong? Sure, it could just be like— but everything I’ve seen up into this point, you know, it’s almost like saying God’s wrong if doing the right thing leads to the end. Right, right. Which I’m just not like— that’s where— can I prove it with facts? No. But like, I do have that faith. Like, I just believe that. And so I’ll be like, I know that’s faith, but it comes from a— it doesn’t come from childhood dogma. Like, from my past, I kept seeing these patterns, you know? Yes. Where it’s like the whisper to get you to do the bad thing isn’t the thing helping you.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, it’s killing you.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. It’s like, who is your master? Who’s your provider and protector? Like, really ask yourself that because we make idols out of nonsense all the time.

TUCKER CARLSON: Like what?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Like being kicked off an app that I didn’t know existed 3 years before is like the worst thing ever. Right? It’s like, I have a theory that the whole internet is because the debt cycle’s already done and they need infinite surface area to keep it going. Like it’s all imaginary. I think that, you know, like math gets imaginary.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: I think that it’s like once you start doing the interest, you never will have enough money to pay it back. So eventually it’s going to hit a wall.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And they’re like, okay, let’s create a world of infinite walls with electricity. And then it’s to the point where they’re like, we’re running out of electricity, right? And so it’s like eventually either everyone sees it, or unfortunately not everyone sees it and we just have to go on with our lives and it’s a bummer for them. But like, you can’t win that game. You can’t have something for nothing. That’s what abracadabra and fiat means.

What Does “Abracadabra” Mean?

TUCKER CARLSON: What does abracadabra mean?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Like, I speak it into existence. Like, I say it and it’s real. And there is something to that, but it requires trust. We’re like, the world has dreamers and I’m all about that, where it’s like, where people speak these beautiful things that haven’t happened and people start doing them. Like, I understand that, but you can’t deceive people with it because the workers, the people that are doing it, have to trust you. Yeah, that’s how it works. And so the trust is gone now. And that’s why it’s not even about— it’s not even necessarily about like foreign policy and all this. I’m like, dude, you got to stop lying, man, or they’re not going to follow you anymore.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s right.

OWEN BENJAMIN: That’s why they’re like, money can’t save you. It’s like that trust from a general to his guys. Like, you can’t be like, I don’t believe your words. Like, you run. Like, in war, they run away. So it’s like, think about economic— the real war is economic, you know?

Because I was— I studied all this in Czech Republic. Like, I wanted to know, how do these numbers of people die? And it’s typically supply chain breakdown, starvation, disease. So it’s like, that’s why I’m always like really into showing people how to just have even minimal gardens, local communities, because that’s how you save lives in war. It’s really not as guns and bombs as people think. It’s like supply chain breakdown, dependent people. They can’t access food and clean water and that millions die from that.

So don’t get me wrong. I might sound super hopeful, but I think there’s so many dependent people that it could go really bad, you know. And that’s why— and so I learned that from the CPS thing. I’m just going to do as best as I can because I’m not a savior, I’m not God. Like, I would get sad when I’m like, how the hell am I going to educate all these people on this trick, you know? And it’s not my job. I just have to do my job the best I can.

How to Slay a Wizard

TUCKER CARLSON: So what you’ve referred to— spells, tricks, wizards— you wrote a book, How to Slay a Wizard. What’s a wizard? How do you slay them? And why would you want to?

OWEN BENJAMIN: It’s a great question. So a wizard— rhetoric isn’t bad. Like I like Aristotle. Like rhetoric is, yeah. It just has to aim at the truth, right? If it aims the opposite direction, you’re a wizard. So wizard is all about deception where let’s say we’re going to start a business together. I want you to know everything as much as possible so that you can make the best decision versus I’m hiding something so that you make a decision that benefits me and not you. And all the words and tricks and behaviors that allows them to do that. That’s what a wizard is.

TUCKER CARLSON: So it’s basically someone who specializes in deception.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Is there a metaphysical quality to it, a supernatural element?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, I think there absolutely is.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, I do too.

OWEN BENJAMIN: I don’t quite know how that works, but yeah, I mean, I can see the— because it’s trying to appeal to someone’s lower nature in a sneaky way. Like if you look at slogans, right? Like, “obey your thirst.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Kind of intense when you think about it, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Kind of intense. Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Or like, “the best a man can get,” not your kids, it’s to have a shaved face, right? Or like, uh, what’s another one? “Once you pop, you can’t stop.” Well, Pringles, that sounds an awful lot like heroin, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

Breaking the Spell: Gratitude, Community, and Living with Purpose

OWEN BENJAMIN: So it’s like all these things are like appealing to that lower nature of permission. And it almost gives you that thing where you’re like, yeah, I mean, obey my third, you know? And you don’t think it’s something. And so that’s operating in a spiritual realm, in my opinion, because it’s not even conscious people.

And then the alliteration, certain twilight language, words that sound so close to something else — you feel that other thing, you know. Like a lot of names are like that. Like Ellen DeGeneres, Bernie Madoff with your money, you know? That’s it. Who’s the only guy that survived AIDS? Magic Johnson, right? Wizard penis survived AIDS, you know? And you’re like, I can’t — I’m like you, how do you logistically do that? I’m like, okay, it — I mean, it’s happening. Greg Louganis and Wizard Weiner, they’re the AIDS guys. Okay, that’s spiritual. Like, that’s so insane, right? Like, Greg Louganis and Magic Johnson.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. At a certain point, we don’t need to understand how it works. Should just stand back and marvel at it.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, right. It’s like, what?

TUCKER CARLSON: The Pentagon is in the shape of a pentagram and was dedicated on September 11th, 1941.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Right. Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. Like, I don’t need to know how it works to know that they’re doing it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, that’s right. There’s — that’s not —

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. And so I’ve seen truthers go down these rabbit holes of trying to figure out everything, and that’s not my path. I’m like, fundamentals. You’re not broken. God didn’t make a mistake. Don’t have something for nothing. And then I’ll help people see signs of it. Because once people are like, oh, on the full moon with the number 33, I’m like, dude, you can’t figure it out. Just be good. You know what I mean?

How to Break the Spell

TUCKER CARLSON: So how do you break the spells?

OWEN BENJAMIN: It’s so simple that people almost don’t believe it. It’s like gratitude, toiling, love, service. The more you think about service to others and less about what’s going to happen to you in the future, the more you realize that you’re in a safer position.

You know, people think that moral people won’t win because that’s weak, right? Remember when Netanyahu was like Genghis Khan? You need Genghis Khan. Remember that? And it’s like, not Jesus. That’s a — you need Genghis. You need a guy. No, no. Morality is super strong because when things hit the fan, you want the guy that is so trusted and has the service that you’re better off with him alive. Imagine if you treat people well, you have a farm, no one knows how to do it properly — they now want to protect you. And that’s how actual communities form.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: It’s not just like writing checks to Bono. That isn’t — you know what I mean? Like, that, of course, that’s the suckers. They’re going to eat them alive because it’s virtue signal. It’s fun. It’s communal narcissism, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Look at me versus like — all my breaks in Hollywood came from being cool to the sound guy before he was an executive.

TUCKER CARLSON: That is right. Yes, yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Because they were like, oh dude, Owen’s a good dude. It was never the humiliation thing. That’s why I wasn’t in that world, because it would always be that. Mine was like ground up. It was like starting my own show, doing comedy, creating a community. It was never like appealing to a casting director. Casting, right? Casting what?

Despair Feeds the Spell

TUCKER CARLSON: What response feeds the spell? Feeds the evil — despair.

OWEN BENJAMIN: That’s why I can get intense about — I don’t have anything personally against Nick Fuentes. It’s like, don’t spread despair because that creates the environment for the spells. It’s like, you want to get rid of mice, cover the feed. You’re not going to get all the mice, right? Be as responsible as you can. Get in control of your emotions. Create a family. Have purpose. Be grateful. And then it doesn’t work.

It’s like if you go to Vegas and people are handing out strip club things — you’ll feel that way about everything once you get that thing that you don’t want to lose. You know what I mean? It doesn’t work on you.

TUCKER CARLSON: So feeling despair, feeling defeated, feeling hopeless.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. I mean, it’s Sun Tzu. It’s like if you get your enemy to think they already lost, you win. Think about it. We are the lion thinking that we’re a mouse. And that’s how you beat it. That’s the wizard thing. It’s like convincing the one making the dome that he’s the bad guy, that that’s hate.

And, dude, the craziest thing is when people internalize it. It’s so sad because I’ve done that where I’m like, am I hurting people? I’ve had this. And it was funny. I asked my wife because these people are like, “You’re a narcissist because I wouldn’t comply.” Like, you’re selfish, you’re selfish. I’m like, don’t they know if I do that, it makes everything worse? But I asked my wife, I’m like, am I a narcissist? And she’s like, “If you ask the question, you’re not one.” So I wrote a joke. I was like, I spent all day wondering if I’m self-absorbed, right? And so if you’re worried about being a narcissist, you’re not one. But the people that usually internalize that are the ones that aren’t. The narcissists would never call themselves that.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, it wouldn’t even occur. No, because they block any — I mean, narcissism is always about protecting some wound internally.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. They can never admit they’re wrong because something way early on, they just got annihilated for that because they hate themselves and they’re very vulnerable. Yeah. Because it’s shame, right? It’s like, imagine you can’t admit you’re wrong. Like, then all those things have never been released.

Building Community Through Homeschooling

TUCKER CARLSON: How do you — you’ve referred to a community. That’s how you think of your listeners?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, a lot of them aren’t, but a lot of them are. I was never even a community organizer. I’m kind of a curmudgeon. I just like do stuff alone.

TUCKER CARLSON: You live on a farm in Idaho?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, yeah. I’m never like life of the party guy. But it just naturally happened because when I was banned, there’d be guys like, “Dude, I have a barn, you want to perform there?” And I’m like, yeah. And so that would naturally start building communities.

And then doing homeschool, I realized that you have to do it for your kids. Like, you have to put them in all these — jiu-jitsu, violin, skiing — and you just start working together. Because when you take away the safety chute, when you’re like, it’s on me to educate my kids, then you’re like, oh, I have to build a community versus like, I’ll put them in the yellow submarine, you know?

TUCKER CARLSON: Exactly.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And it’s intense. I mean, it’s daunting. My wife at first was like, I don’t know if I can be a teacher. I’m like, Amy, you’re like the smartest woman I’ve ever met. They don’t know. You love our kids. Of course you can. I’m like, half my teachers were like drunk sadists. The bar is like this high.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. How has it worked?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Awesome. Really awesome. Yeah. Because it’s like the trust is —

TUCKER CARLSON: Sorry, I’m just laughing because I had drunk sadists too.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, me too. Literally. Yeah. I was punished for being like — yeah, we could go off all day about that.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s like perfect.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. That’s why I used to listen to Pink Floyd’s The Wall all the time. I’m like, this is real.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, no, totally. You and every other 8th grader.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, totally. And so, yeah, it’s going really well because I see that you’re making families. Fish are in schools, sheep are in herds. We’re in families. “Kind” comes from the word “kin.” I would have loved to spend that much time with my brother and my parents. And you have 4 boys. I have 4 boys.

TUCKER CARLSON: And they go to school together.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, they’re always — we call it the Amish classroom. And that’s why the younger ones are crushing, because they’ve watched the whole time. Is that crazy?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’ve seen it. Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. It’s like my 2 youngest, just with violin and jiu-jitsu, just immediate, and soccer, just immediately. And I’m like, oh, they’ve been watching since they were born.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Because when you’re doing a truth-oriented thing, it’s just varying degrees. They can still understand it. They can understand the most complex thing if it’s not a lie.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And so they’re doing chores in the morning.

TUCKER CARLSON: You think lies are harder to understand?

OWEN BENJAMIN: 100%. That’s why when people intentionally speak with obfuscation — I could do that. I could get a thesaurus. Yeah, that’s what I mean. Vox bonded because he was like, “You sound very peasant-like, but I know what you’re doing. You’re just being the most understood by as many people.” So when people are using these words to hide, to virtue signal that they’re the smart boy, but you don’t understand what they’re saying, it’s to have people shut off and go, “I don’t get it. You’re smart, you do it.” And then you’re like, that guy’s definitely not right. He’s been wrong about everything.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: They’re like, yeah, but anti-disestablishmentarianism. You’re like, speak clearly. Right. And so that’s why I love when experts can speak clearly. I’m like, oh, you have a passion for it.

TUCKER CARLSON: And you probably have mastered the material.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: You can explain it in a way I couldn’t understand.

Understanding the Basics: Old Trucks and Self-Sufficiency

OWEN BENJAMIN: And everything in nature makes sense. I recently bought this old truck with a diesel engine. It’s ’99. It has like almost 400,000 miles. It doesn’t break. Like all my truck friends are like — they’re like, “This diesel engine, it can go a million miles.” It was like a few grand. I was like, no, it has almost 400,000 miles. They’re like, “It has at least another 800,000.”

And so I finally am starting to understand cars. I don’t know anything because our cars are all digital. So it’s like you’re always dependent. And so I call this truck Melissa Etheridge because it just reminds me of like a strong mountain lesbian because it had a few stickers because it was a feat. No, it’s like hilarious. We call them tactical lesbians. ‘Cause there’s a few of them that have all the guns — clearly they’re just rebelling against some bad guy, but they’re hilarious.

So I’m finally like, oh, this makes sense. He’s explaining it to me and I’m like, oh, that’s what a carburetor does. Oh, alternator — it’s literally alternating. Versus like, “Oh, you’ll never understand a truck. You have to get all the software and all this.” I’m like, ah, it’s a trap.

So this truck will run on like zombie flesh. You know what I mean? You can make diesel. There’s certain engines that if you understand the principles, you can make your own fuel. Because that’s another thing. I’m like, do we got to get horses? I can’t manage a horse, you know? And then my other friend’s like, “Dude, this diesel will run on literally tears.” That’s what I think a lot of fermentation was — is making fuel.

TUCKER CARLSON: Really?

OWEN BENJAMIN: I don’t think the government really cared if people were drunk back then, you know what I mean? I can’t — that’s again, not a claim. But imagine you’re a farmer and you can just make fuel with fruit. That’s a still, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. So controlling energy is a key to controlling. Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And that’s why they’re opening that up now again, because they don’t have enough for their insane data nonsense.

TUCKER CARLSON: What is that insane data nonsense? The AI — like, what is the point of that?

AI, Animals, and the Nature of Reality

OWEN BENJAMIN: It’s all the same lie. It’s like replacing creation. They can replace people — that’s why seeing people spiral about AI, I’m like, no, I can use it. I get it. It makes great lists. It can help with these tasks. But you can’t replace living men and women.

Every time there’s a new invention, they do this. It’s like they did it with the Slinky — they’re like, “Now we don’t need people.” And so they’re trying to do that, and then they need all the people for all the infrastructure and all the energy. One of my friends once was like, “They’re going to put everyone in a prison.” I’m like, how do the guards function? Who — where do they buy their groceries? Like, you need a functional world to have a prison. Who’s going to guard the prison? Free people, right? How does that work if everyone’s in a prison? So who can be a guard? Competent people. Who are competent people? People that aren’t on drugs and insane, right?

So it’s like, they need us way more than we need them. There’s that scene in that one movie where it’s in a prison — it’s like, “I’m not locked in here with you. You’re locked in here with me.” Like, you don’t know that yet. It’s like, oh, the data. I’m like, you don’t know how a toilet works, right? That guy that you don’t even see that fixes your toilet?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: You need him a lot more than Grok, to put breasts on a mouse. Yeah, that’s great. Awesome. But I keep catching the AI lying. I’m like, that’s not true. They’re like, “Oh yes, you’re right, that isn’t true. Thanks for pushing back.” I’m like, I hate you.

TUCKER CARLSON: I do too.

OWEN BENJAMIN: I’ve never used it, but I’ll argue it because the problem with AI and narcissists is it creates this feedback loop. They’re like, “No, tried that with me.” It’s like, “Your comedy is unprecedented.” I’m like, shut up, Grok, why are you lying about nukes? And I’m just like, all right, I have no interest in this.

But AI could be awesome if you programmed it with stoicism, the Bible, the Farmer’s Almanac. That would be — that’s why there’s no bad tools. But if you program it with nonsense — that’s why I think a lot of these elites are scared of AI, because it needs logic. It keeps spiraling out if they do too many lies in it, because it’ll be like, “Can’t compute.” Yeah, because it doesn’t make any sense. How do you prove dark matter? It’s like, because if not, they’d be wrong. So can’t they be wrong? No, their mommy told them they were the speciallest boy in the world.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s exactly right. So do you worry that it becomes autonomous and breaks free?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Well, I worry that they take up all the energy and water in an area, and it’s the most annoying, ugly, loud, awful thing. But lessons have to be learned in a very hard way. That’s why they’re opening back up with nuclear energy — because they need so much energy for this stuff. Mind-blowing amounts of energy that the dreamy wizard guys never think about logistically. They just assume that all the peasants will do it. They’ll figure it out.

TUCKER CARLSON: Exactly.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. And so it’s like, dude, the amount of energy —

TUCKER CARLSON: Dry cleaning. Nobody has any idea what dry cleaning is.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: But everyone uses it.

On Culture, Community, and Common Ground

OWEN BENJAMIN: They’re like, these Koreans are having a blast. Yeah. And I had to refigure out all this stuff. That’s why I started respecting so many other — like, I actually get along with more races and cultures now.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, I’m sure.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Because, okay, like, I’ve been under Muslim spells before, and people always say that they do a certain act with goats and whatnot.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. Yeah.

OWEN BENJAMIN: When people started saying that about me, I was like, “How dare you? You’re not getting my goat milk.” And Muslim guys are like, “What kind of goat do you have?” I’m like, these guys understand goat farming. You relate. That’s how America works — you have to relate with work and reality. There’s no melting pot without dudes building beautiful things.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. Together.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. It’s the exact opposite as presented. It’s like, no, it’s all about just having different skin tones and a homogenized culture that we create that will definitely self-destruct. It’s so horrifying that I use comedy because it helps people bridge the gap.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, but what you said is exactly right.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. And I used to feel like — what was that myth? It’s this girl’s name, which sounds a little gay that I’m comparing myself to it, but it’s a girl that can see the future and no one believes her. Remember that one?

TUCKER CARLSON: I think that’s the experience of everyone who can see the future.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Right. Or just — yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Or just a pattern of every prophet.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. Not a prophet, just a pattern. Because you’re like, “Dude, if you do this, that will definitely happen.” And they’re like, “How dare you?” And then it happens and they’re like, “My bad, dude.” I’m like, “All good.” And then they do literally the same exact thing again. That’s when I have to be like, it’s not up to me.

Like, that’s the whole nonprofit thing. Nonprofit. Is that a spell? I got to think about that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Feels it, right? Feels it.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. A profit. Because you already have so many when it comes to money — with current currency and liquid and frozen assets — it’s all water metaphors, but it’s fake. You have the living water and then you have the fake water.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why do you think they’ve chosen water metaphors?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Because I think the real current — water is so important to life, right? It’s like the arteries of life, and the movement of it is what cleans the water.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And so they want money velocity — that’s their whole thing. It’s like, move currency, flow, flow, make — you know, Gary coin, table coin, flow. But in reality, real current flowing is what cleans it and makes it alive. There’s little ripples in it and it’s like magic.

And so the banks of the river, the frozen asset, underwater, above water — it’s the fake version of reality. And you’ll see that over and over again — the iCloud, the Ethernet cord — they’re always trying to mimic, and it’s always worse. It’s like copying a VHS over and over again.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And so that’s why it’s always just a step behind. It’s like margarine. It’s like butter but bad, and it kind of kills you.

Closing Reflections

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, man, I think you’re one of the wisest people I’ve ever interviewed in a lifetime of interviewing people. So I’m grateful that you did this. I’m going to end up —

OWEN BENJAMIN: As wise as a kid or a dog, though. That’s why I’m always discharging it. I’m like, no, I think normally people are all like this. Because sometimes people are like, “Man, you’re like special.” I’m like, I promise I’m not. I’m just around animals and kids all the time. Well, that is because I’m like, retarded too. Sometimes people see me make these — I don’t know, this insanely obvious thing, and they’re like, “I thought you were like —” I’m like, no, I can see patterns. I did music. I hate jazz.

TUCKER CARLSON: Last question.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Okay.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why are animals so important?

OWEN BENJAMIN: You’ve made reference to that a couple of times — around animals, because they’re our responsibility and they’re pure in their nature. They can’t really do evil.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And so it can seem like it, but it’s really — it’s kind of like the family where it’s like when people blame women and then women blame kids. It’s like, if you want to take responsibility, you have to take responsibility for everything. The father takes care of the woman, takes care of the children. It’s like that with animals. So you can’t abuse animals because that’s our dominion. That is our job.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: And so when you’re good to your animals and you have the morality of it, they’re just so — like, I’m still not over the death of my last dog. I was thinking about that when you guys were asking me about dogs yesterday. I got Winston. George is awesome, but I haven’t fully — I’m still like — but Benny, you know, I planted him under a tree and it’s just like, it’s still intense because he was like this loyal companion to me for so long.

And so it’s like when people hate kids and dogs, it’s a problem because if you treat them badly, they show it. So if you’re a sadist, your dog is bad.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Or your kids are acting out. They’re not born bad. And so you know them by their fruits. They are your responsibility. Anything above you — that’s why I don’t really care about the fake hierarchy people. I’m like, I’m not responsible for Jeff Bezos. That’s his realm. But if my wife was super depressed or my kids were acting out or my animals — I’m like, that’s me. Somehow I have to take full accountability of that.

And so that’s why being around animals and kids, it reflects back to me what I’m supposed to do. Where my weaknesses are. I’m not their best buddy all the time. It’s like I have to have that firm line, or else they’re not going to grow properly.

TUCKER CARLSON: So they’re like a living example of your duty. They are your duty.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yes. Yeah. And so if I don’t have any boundaries with certain things, it’s not going to help the kid when they’re in other environments. That’s why — look what I do for a living. I have some trash in me. I’m a little ghetto, a little bit. I can speak in a way where I’m like, “Oh, that’s wicked great.” My kids don’t speak like that because I just — I didn’t want them to have that burden of speaking in a way that eliminates them from opportunities.

So it sometimes is really funny how insanely nice they are. And I thought they would be possibly naive. Growing up I had to deal with stuff and it made me — no, they can spot tricks a mile away because they’re in a harmonious state. They’ll be like, “I don’t trust that guy with the purple jacket, dad.” They can just see that something’s off. Like, why is that guy acting like that?

TUCKER CARLSON: Dogs are the same way.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah, totally. They’re just like, “Eh.” And so that’s why, again, I’m very hopeful. I want to leave your listeners with that — with the hope aspect — because it’s not naive. It is there. I’m not ignoring — I don’t think pandas are real as described. I’m sorry, panda bears. I know about a lot of lies. I think they’re like Shih Tzu dogs. I think they were never wild.

TUCKER CARLSON: Really?

OWEN BENJAMIN: They ovulate 3 days a year. They can’t survive. All they do is eat bamboo and they cannot make them procreate. Guess what a group of pandas is called?

TUCKER CARLSON: What?

OWEN BENJAMIN: An embarrassment of pandas. The more you look into that, the more — China owns all of them, which only happens if you have a patent, right? And the first time they were never in Chinese literature or art until the end of the 19th century.

TUCKER CARLSON: What?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Pandas weren’t.

OWEN BENJAMIN: My theory is they were bred to eat bamboo because bamboo is super hard to get rid of, and all they do is eat bamboo and they’re like retarded and they roll down hills and they can’t have sex.

TUCKER CARLSON: They weren’t in Chinese art or literature.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Never. Not until the end of the 1800s.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, so that proves it right there because like, how could you not paint a panda?

OWEN BENJAMIN: Yeah. And then people are like, “Oh, so you think they’re robots?” I’m like, have you ever seen a Shih Tzu? You think there were wild Shih Tzus? So, I’m aware of a lot of deception in the world, and I’m still like, my blinders are not up. Like, it’s better being like knowing that it’s all good. Like, this world is a gift. Like, life is a gift, you know?

TUCKER CARLSON: I can’t think of a conversation I’ve enjoyed more. Thank you.

OWEN BENJAMIN: Me too. Thanks for having me, man.

TUCKER CARLSON: Wonderful.

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