Victor Gao: How China Is Shaping the World Amid U.S. Containment & Global Crises (Transcript)

And China is stepping up to the plate and is becoming the champion and the standard bearer of defending free trade.

That really sets China apart from the United States and I think the rest of the world, which have also suffered the headwind from this anti-world tariff war launched by the Trump administration, can see with their own eyes which country is doing the right thing – China is doing the right thing by defending free trade – and which country is doing the wrong thing – the United States is doing the wrong thing by destroying free trade.

I would say by defending free trade, China is not only defending the legitimate interests of the people in China, but defending the legitimate interests of all countries in the world. And ironically, China is also defending the legitimate interests of the majority of the people in the United States.

Because I truly believe the American people, decent people as they are, dignified people as they are, do not want to pay the tariffs that President Trump and his government are charging because Trump administration is not telling the truth to the American people. The tariffs the US Government is charging will be paid by the American people. It’s kind of a tax against the American people.

And the tariffs paid by the American people to the US Government will not make America richer or greater again. It will really disrupt economic relations inside the United States as well as between the United States and many other countries in the world. And I hope the American people will realize the folly, the stupidity of all these tariffs because they are not the panaceas as been described. They will not make America great again.

So we are in the middle of this unprecedented largest scale tariff war launched by the United States against the rest of the world and against China in particular. And I hope all the countries need to do the right thing by defending free trade.

Beyond Tariffs: The Broader Containment Strategy

JYOTISHMAN MUDIAR: How much of it is tariff when it comes to China and how much of it is this larger policy of containing China? Because I think it’s a little bit misleading to see this as just tariffs when it comes particularly to China. Maybe with other countries, yes, maybe not.

But with China we see aggressive containment of selling high tech technology. I mean, there have been some relaxations lately on the selling of the Nvidia chips. But these are part of those small scale short term negotiations. But the larger containment when it comes to technology transfer, encirclement of China through military alliances, they have been quite longstanding, at least a decade, if not further.

How do you see the tariffs as part of this larger package of stopping China’s peaceful rise?

VICTOR GAO: Of course, the anti-China tariff war and the anti-world tariff war launched by the US Government do not exist in a vacuum. They are very much connected with what you described as an attempt to contain China or to knock China down on the ground.

However, from the Chinese perspective, whenever any country or any groups of countries in the world talk about containing China, we cannot help but chuckling. The Chinese economic size in terms of purchasing power parity is already about 130% that of the United States. China produces more than 2.5 times as much steel as what the United States is producing. And the Chinese electricity for industrial use is more than six times as much compared with the power used for industrial use in the United States.

China produces more iron and steel than the next 10 or 11 countries combined. The Chinese industrial output is more than the combined amount of the United States, Japan, Germany, Britain and South Korea combined together.

I would not go into all these details, but if you really apply an objective measurement of what China is today, you will conclude, as I do, that you cannot contain China. Any attempt to contain China is dead before its arrival. China is a megatrend for everyone to engage with dignity, in equality and for mutual benefit.

So I would say if the United States government really wants to contain China or to knock China down onto the ground or to derail China’s peaceful rise, they are doomed to failure. And I would urge them not even to try that because it’s a completely futile attempt.

In the world of today, China is a megatrend. Whether you like China or not, you need to get to terms with China and try to engage with China for mutual benefit. And any attempt to isolate China or to contain China will be doomed to failure.

China’s Role in International Relations and West Asia

JYOTISHMAN MUDIAR: Let me come to a question of how China would project itself in terms of international relationships. And to make the question a little bit more specific, if I could stick to West Asia for a moment, some people, mostly people on the left, I would suppose, think that in the case of Palestine, China could do more. It hasn’t done as much as it could do.

And the example that is given is that in the recent Hague summit where China also sent a representative, it didn’t sign one of those documents that was signed by 12 members that were serious about imposing sanctions on Israel. Now, as I pose this question, I know that it’s easier said than done, particularly in Palestine when there is no state to talk about helping the Palestinians.

But that’s one set of concerns. There are also speculations about what would be the role of China going forward in places like Iran, for instance, if they were to face another illegitimate war from United States and Israel. I wonder what are the discussions within the policy circles in Beijing and elsewhere in China about its future leadership role when it comes to these exceptional forms of injustice in the world stage?

China’s Support for Palestine and Iran

VICTOR GAO: First of all, when we talk about defending the legitimate interests of the Palestinian people or promotion of the two-state solution for Palestine, there is no fiercer defender of the legitimate interests of the Palestinian people than China. China has always been supporting the legitimate interests, including the two-state solution for the Palestinian people.

China has been doing so at the Security Council of the United Nations, in the General Assembly of the United Nations, in all the international organizations, and bilaterally between China and all the factions within the Palestinian side of the equation. China has lobbied against the Zionist movements in Israel. China has been calling on Israel, the government and otherwise, to stop the atrocities committed against the people, innocent people, civilian people in Gaza, and the killing and crimes against humanity committed by Israel against the Palestinian people.

Now, if you can find any stronger and fiercer defender of the Palestinian people, let me know. I don’t think you will succeed in finding a fiercer defender of the Palestinian people.

Now you also mentioned Iran. From the Chinese perspective, Iran is a great country, great people, great civilization to be fully respected. No one in the world should be allowed to bully the Iranian people. The Iranian people and their government are fully entitled to the peaceful use of nuclear power.

Any country does not have legitimacy in accusing Iran of attempting to build a nuclear bomb without concrete evidence, especially for a country like Israel which has illegally developed its own nuclear power and has threatened to use nuclear weapons against quite a few countries in the Middle East to adopt the double standard of accusing Iran of attempting to build a nuclear weapon.

In that sense, China again is a fierce defender of the legitimate interest of the people and the government in Iran. China will do whatever it can to urge the international community to do likewise, to respect the sovereignty and the integrity of the territory of Iran. China will continue to do so.

China will continue to call on Israel and the United States not to use military means to attack Iran in an illegal, illegitimate manner. Whatever problems there are between Iran and Israel or between the United States and Iran, they should be resolved peacefully in diplomacy and in negotiations. I think you cannot find a stronger defender of the legitimate interests of the people in Iran than China.

China will continue to do so. China will never allow countries like Israel or the United States to do the wrong thing by launching illegal wars against Iran or try to destroy the civilian use nuclear facilities in Iran which will be against international law and against the international peaceful use of nuclear resources adopted by the international community.

JYOTISHMAN MUDIAR: Would that also include material support on ground for Iran?

VICTOR GAO: Well, China and Iran engage in normal mutually beneficial trade with each other. We support each other in multiple ways. I would not be surprised that China will continue with such normal trade relations with Iran.

China will never bow to any pressure from any country which demand that China no longer buy oil or gas from Iran. It’s none of their business. It’s purely a bilateral matter between China and Iran. No other country has legitimacy to call for fundamental change of the economic and commercial relations between China and Iran.

China’s Challenges in Asia

JYOTISHMAN MUDIAR: Professor Gao, let’s come to Asia now. As I see, of course, China is the second biggest power in Asia because the first biggest power is the United States. I’m joking of course, but maybe not completely.

China, it seems to me, faces a dual problem in Asia. One is bilateral differences with certain countries. I’m thinking about India, I’m thinking about Philippines, Vietnam to some extent. But then there is the larger problem that the presence of the United States that makes this encirclement of China. A lot of nations are making the mistakes, including India, of seeing their security as participating in this encirclement of China.

My question to you, Professor Gao, is how is China engaging with its Asian neighbors given these two set of problems? One is a bilateral problem of differences, mostly border issues, issues about areas that are contested and not settled. And then there is the presence of the United States.

VICTOR GAO: Thank you. Before I answer that, tell me what’s the time right now?

JYOTISHMAN MUDIAR: 9:47.

VICTOR GAO: Can we finish before 10:00?

JYOTISHMAN MUDIAR: Yes, yes, of course.

VICTOR GAO: Okay. Please help keep the time. Now I will answer your questions. Thank you.

China’s Border Relations and Territorial Disputes

The Asian region is very important part in the world of today, especially certain parts of the Asian region because they are very dynamic in economic development. China has altogether 14 land neighboring countries and about up to 6 maritime neighboring countries. China has signed border treaties with 12 out of the 14 land neighboring countries. There are only two countries, namely India and Bhutan, which is controlled by India, which have not signed border treaties with China.

For the maritime neighbors, which include for example, in particular Philippines, there are territorial disputes. But from the Chinese perspective, the reason for the Chinese sovereignty over the atolls, reefs, islands in the South China Sea are well recorded in history, even without going further into antiquity.

If we just look at the end of the Second World War, in August 1945, when Japan unconditionally surrendered, Japan surrendered all the islands, atolls and reefs in the South China Sea to the Republic of China, which was an ally of the United States in defeating Japanese fascism in 1945.

At that time, there was no independent Vietnam, which was a colony of France. There is no independent Malaysia, which is a colony of Britain. There is no independent Indonesia, which was a colony of the Dutch. And there was no independent Republic of the Philippines, which was a possession of the United States.

China was the only country standing on its feet in dignity and suffering so much, losing up to more than 30 million of its people in the defeat of Japanese fascism. Therefore, if anyone wants to challenge China’s sovereignty over the islands, atolls and reefs in the South China Sea, read the surrender documents of Japan and read about how Japan surrendered all the islands, atolls and reefs in the South China Sea to the Republic of China.

So China has the legitimacy in keeping these territories inside the South China Sea as its sovereign territories. China is committed to solve the territorial disputes, if any, either between China and the maritime neighbors or between China and India and to a much lesser extent between China and Bhutan through peaceful means.

However, China will never allow any foreign country, including India in particular, to illegally occupy Chinese territories.

The India-China Border Dispute

India has been holding up this so-called McMahon Line as the border between China and India. China throughout different governments have never recognized the legitimacy of the McMahon Line because it was drawn by a British called McMahon without the Chinese consent. The Chinese government has never recognized that, never signed that document. China never recognized the McMahon Line as a legitimate border between China and India.

China now is occupying more than 90,000 square kilometers of land which is what we call Southern Tibet in Chinese and what the Indians have now come up with, a term called Arunachal Pradesh. This is not Indian territory, this is Chinese territory. China demands that India sooner or later, and the sooner the better, need to give up this chunk of land which are Chinese territory illegally occupied by India.

I do hope China and India will come up with diplomacy and negotiations and amicably solve this territorial dispute which was created by a British officer when they were rulers of India. India has no legitimacy, no right to take over whatever the British came up with illegally as a legitimate border between China and India.

I even declared that if India really wants to use the McMahon Line as the border between China and India, which is an illegal illegitimate line, then I can draw a line along the Ganges river and make that line as a border between China and India. That will be very much of a shock to everyone in India and that will also wake up the minds of the people in India about the illegitimacy of the McMahon Line because that line was illegally drawn up by a British called McMahon.

They should never be recognized as the legitimate border between China and India. So I hope sanity will come back to the decision makers in India. They will recognize the illegality of the McMahon Line. India need to really talk with China about an amicably mutually acceptable way to solve their territorial disputes.

Other than that, China keeps good relations with almost all the other countries in Asia region as a whole, including the 10 ASEAN member states, including with countries like Japan and the Republic of Korea, as well as DPRK on the Korean Peninsula. China is always committed to work the hardest to improve its bilateral relations with all the countries in Asia as well as in other parts of the world for mutual benefit.

We are always worried that we do not have enough friends, whereas there is a big country in the world which seems to be worried that they do not have enough enemies in the world.

Technology Transfer and Support for the Global South

JYOTISHMAN MUDIAR: Let me check the time. Okay. Maybe if I could squeeze the last question. I mean, I have just five minutes, but if you could be brief. I’m just respectful about your time.

I wanted to ask you about because one of the most spectacular facts of recent human history is how China has been able to tap into capital, but also create capital and also constantly upgrade its technological level, which is quite a spectacular fact looked when one looks at it from the perspective of the Global South.

My question to you, Professor Gao, is can countries in the Global South expect to get support of China in terms of technology transfer and capital? That is much long term kind of things that China did by itself because there are reports on various circles about Chinese being unwilling to offer real technological transfer and insisting more on trade. What’s your response to these concerns?

VICTOR GAO: Well, China started the opening to the outside world and economic and political reform back in 1978. So by now more than 47 or even 48 years have elapsed and China has achieved a complete transformation of its economy, for the betterment of the people, living standards of the people in China, as well as for mutual benefits with all the countries which have dealt with China over almost five decades, from the beginning of the economic and political reform and opening to the outside world.

Throughout this process, China has always emphasized that “development is the hard truth.” In order to achieve real development, you need to have domestic stability, you need to achieve international peace. These are all the right principles supporting China’s strategy of development.

I believe if China can completely transform itself in a matter of four decades or five decades, all the other countries can do the same, achieve the same results if they can always put development as the hard truth, focus on development by all means, and then always treasure and nurture domestic stability and always try their best to keep international peace.

If you do the right thing in these important areas, development and the transformation and the enrichment of the people in your country will be a more logical result rather than something distorted, something falling onto you from the sky. No, it will be the natural result of your hard work and contribution and relentless pursuit of development.

China’s Commitment to Sharing Development

So China is willing to share all its development results, transformations, technological breakthroughs with the rest of the world, especially with countries in the Global South. We still consider China as a developing country, even though sometimes American leaders claim that China is already a developed country and it’s no longer qualified as a developing country. That’s not the right thing.

In terms of per capita income, China is still relatively low, about 12 or 13,000 US dollars per person. In China, our goal is to at least double that, if not triple that, to really become a well developed country in a matter of another 25 years or so. So there is still a lot of work to be done in China.

The size of the Chinese economy need to double, if not more than double, in the coming 20 or 25 years. I believe the development of China will generate huge amount of momentum for the growth of the economies of so many other countries in the world.

The great achievement by China is a benefit for all the countries because it demonstrates that China, by following its own pathway, its own roadmap, can really uplift millions, hundreds of millions of people from abject poverty and achieving prosperity for such a large population.

Keep in mind, please, that back in 1978, the size of the Chinese economy was more or less on a par with that of the Indian economy. But by today, China’s economy is about five times as big as India’s economy. So there must be a reason, there must be an explanation based upon the fact that China must have done things in a great way with great results, and other countries should really speed up and accelerate their economic development by promoting domestic stability and regional and international peace.

Closing Remarks

JYOTISHMAN MUDIAR: Thank you very much, Professor Gao, thank you very much for your time.

Hi, my name is Ayushman. I, along with Jyotishman, have started this platform the last two years. We have tried to build content for the left and progressive forces. We have interviewed economists, historians, political commentators and activists so far.

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